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  #226  
Unread 04-28-2017, 10:46 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

unsurprisingly much has not changed

even when taking into consideration that
"there's been a lot of movement in astrology since the second century CE"


for example
Vettius Valens SOLAR REVOLUTION
is simply rebranded as
THE SOLAR RETURN
Not surprising that Traditional is at the roots, connecting to the Modern branches--it's a synergistic relationship. As far attitudinal changes go, BIG difference between the Age of Tropical Capricorn on the cusp of Sagittarius, and the Age of Capricorn now, on the cusp of Aquarius--means a major shift in the prevailing World-view as reflected in each Chart. "Prevailing", not "unanimous"--depends on the Age Indicator location relative to the rest of the Chart. If you choose to ignore the Age-effect, then yes, no reason why things should be different now, compared to then. [Tropical Age of Capricorn (using Mean indicator position) 400 to 2150 C.E., a 1750 year cycle using the Progression of the Perihelion (NOT the same as the Sidereal Age's Precession of the Equinox, which is retrograde, and a 2150 year cycle, with an Age of Pisces beginning around 200 C.E., depending on the Ayanamsa).]


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  #227  
Unread 04-28-2017, 11:21 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Not surprising that Traditional is at the roots,
connecting to the Modern branches
--it's a synergistic relationship.
On the contrary
Traditional Astrology has roots, trunk as well as it's own multiple branches
Modernist Astrology is simply composed of a few twigs
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  #228  
Unread 04-28-2017, 11:25 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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On the contrary
Traditional Astrology has roots, trunk as well as it's own multiple branches
Modernist Astrology is simply composed of a few twigs
This burns. I r8 this bantz 10/10
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  #229  
Unread 04-29-2017, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
On the contrary
Traditional Astrology has roots, trunk as well as it's own multiple branches
Modernist Astrology is simply composed of a few twigs
A tree without twigs has neither leaves, nor fruit--it's barren. Traditional alone has no twigs and only two main trunks, from which Modern branches grow, and sprout their twigs: Traditional-Tropical, and Traditional-Vedic. But it does supply the indispensable roots!

Last edited by david starling; 04-29-2017 at 04:58 AM.
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  #230  
Unread 04-29-2017, 06:25 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
On the contrary
Traditional Astrology has roots, trunk as well as it's own multiple branches
Modernist Astrology is simply composed of a few twigs
This actually isn't correct, assuming that by "modernist" you mean "modern." Since the development of modern western astrology ca. 1900, we have added or included previously neglected themes:

1, harmonic charts, so-called minor aspects
2. modern outer planets and dwarf planets
3. asteroids
4. midpoints (previously known, but less developed)
5. I'm not sure about declination, but I think that the use of parallels and counter-parallels is modern.
6. An expansion of astrology's intellectual and practical contexts. Not so into stoicism, fatalism, and astral determinism. Expanded meanings of houses.
7. An expanded understanding of human nature, beyond the 4 humours and temperament.
8. Most of the early work on computerizing horoscope calculations was done by modern astrologers, who developed the software. More recently some trads have contributed to software development. Anyone here ever calculated a horoscope by hand?

Use these contributions, or don't. Like them or don't. But let's be fair-minded about modern astrology's innovations.
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  #231  
Unread 04-29-2017, 08:40 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
HOUSES are either:
angular = 1st, 4th, 7th & 10th
succeedent = 2nd, 5th, 8th, & 11th
or
cadent = 3rd, 6th, 9th & 12th


houses are not all equal in strength and power

i.e.
If a planet is located in an angular house it is much more forceful in its effects
than it would be in a cadent house.

in CHRISTIAN ASTROLOGY William Lilly writes:

The angles are most powerful
the succeedents are next in virtue
the cadents poor, and of little efficacy:
the succeedent houses follow the angles
the cadents come next after the succeedents.

In force and virtue they stand so in order
:

1 10 7 4 11 5 9 3 2 8 6 12

The meaning whereof is this
that two planets equally dignified
the one in the Ascendant
the other in the tenth house
you shall judge the planet in the Ascendant somewhat of more power
to effect what he is significator of
than he that is in the tenth:
do so in the rest as they stand in order
remembering that planets in angles do more forcibly show their effects.
But houses themselves don't affect anything? Isn't it always, planets in the house which affect? For example, Planets in Angular houses get stronger, faster, more visible, therefore more powerful?
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  #232  
Unread 04-29-2017, 09:05 AM
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But houses themselves don't affect anything? Isn't it always, planets in the house which affect? For example, Planets in Angular houses get stronger, faster, more visible, therefore more powerful?
How is a Planet in the Fourth House "more visible"? it's way below the visible half of the sky.
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Unread 04-29-2017, 09:08 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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How is a Planet in the Fourth House "more visible"? it's way below the visible half of the sky.
Not optically, but energetically?
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  #234  
Unread 04-29-2017, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
Not optically, but energetically?
Yes, it's a theoretical concept, and it does make sense if you believe that the 4 Angular Houses are about the only Areas of Life that are really important: Self, Home, Partnership, and Career. I see those as "structural", but within that basic framework are other important Areas as well, such as Communication and Education, both Cadent House matters. There's a mindset, a point of view, behind the method.
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  #235  
Unread 04-29-2017, 12:58 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post

A tree without twigs has neither leaves, nor fruit--it's barren.
On the contrary - you're simply grasping at twigs
fruit grows on branches

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Traditional alone has no twigs and only two main trunks,
from which Modern branches grow, and sprout their twigs:
Traditional-Tropical, and Traditional-Vedic.
But it does supply the indispensable roots!

Traditional not only has roots
but also a trunk
and branches
as well as more than sufficient traditionalist twigs

Traditional has no need of Modernist insignificant twigs
which are simply rebranded, repackaged from Traditional root sources
Traditional uses the original methodology
Modernist is dependent on Traditional roots without which it cannot exist

SIGN PLACEMENT is a Traditional concept - not Modernist

SOLAR REVOLUTION aka SOLAR RETURN
HOUSE RULERS
ASPECTS
Removing those
as well as multiple all other TRADITIONAL techniques
from Modernist astrology
renders Modernist Astrology ridiculous
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  #236  
Unread 04-29-2017, 02:40 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Yes, it's a theoretical concept, and it does make sense if you believe that the 4 Angular Houses are about the only Areas of Life that are really important: Self, Home, Partnership, and Career. I see those as "structural", but within that basic framework are other important Areas as well, such as Communication and Education, both Cadent House matters. There's a mindset, a point of view, behind the method.

Aren't Astrological Houses just concepts? They are not physical structure. They are conceptually angular, succedent and cadent. They do not radiate energies, but the planets do?

We hear about planetary energies strong or weak, but never strong houses or weak houses?
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  #237  
Unread 04-29-2017, 02:44 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by Senecar View Post

But houses themselves don't affect anything?
Isn't it always, planets in the house which affect?
For example, Planets in Angular houses get stronger,
faster, more visible, therefore more powerful?

Planetary speed, is not affected by House location
Planets ABOVE THE HORIZON are more visible

In CHRISTIAN ASTROLOGY William Lilly writes:

The angles are most powerful
the succeedents are next in virtue
the cadents poor, and of little efficacy:
the succeedent houses follow the angles
the cadents come next after the succeedents.

In force and virtue they stand so in order
:

1 10 7 4 11 5 9 3 2 8 6 12

The meaning whereof is this
that two planets equally dignified
the one in the Ascendant
the other in the tenth house
you shall judge the planet in the Ascendant somewhat of more power
to effect what he is significator of
than he that is in the tenth:
do so in the rest as they stand in order
remembering that planets in angles do more forcibly show their effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post

Aren't Astrological Houses just concepts?
They are not physical structure.
They are conceptually angular, succedent and cadent.
They do not radiate energies, but the planets do?

We hear about planetary energies strong or weak, but never strong houses or weak houses?

Tropical zodiac is "just a concept"
but you yourself use it


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  #238  
Unread 04-29-2017, 02:45 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

In CHRISTIAN ASTROLOGY William Lilly writes:

The angles are most powerful
the succeedents are next in virtue
the cadents poor, and of little efficacy:
the succeedent houses follow the angles
the cadents come next after the succeedents.

In force and virtue they stand so in order
:

1 10 7 4 11 5 9 3 2 8 6 12

The meaning whereof is this
that two planets equally dignified
the one in the Ascendant
the other in the tenth house
you shall judge the planet in the Ascendant somewhat of more power
to effect what he is significator of
than he that is in the tenth:
do so in the rest as they stand in order
remembering that planets in angles do more forcibly show their effects.
Yes, planets in Angular houses get strong or weak, but the houses themselves are just concepts? And also planets being visible or invisible - I would rather read it again, as energies - influencial or not influencial. Not optically or visually visible. Astrologers don't observe the planets as such like Astronomers do
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  #239  
Unread 04-29-2017, 02:50 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post

Yes, planets in Angular houses get strong or weak, but the houses themselves are just concepts?
And also planets being visible or invisible
- I would rather read it again, as energies - influencial or not influencial.
Not optically or visually visible.
Astrologers don't observe the planets as such like Astronomers do

MODERNIST astrologers no longer observe the planets
they simply use software written by others
and
that software calculation often differs
due to the individual opinions of the software writers


HOWEVER
many Traditional astrologers do observe the visible planets and Fixed Stars
for example RUMEN KOLEV
http://www.babylonianastrology.com/


Rumen Kolev also lectures, writes and sells books
and he is an astrologer who writes his own software
http://www.babylonianastrology.com/i...emart&Itemid=1
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  #240  
Unread 04-29-2017, 06:18 PM
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Smile Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Planetary speed, is not affected by House location
Planets ABOVE THE HORIZON are more visible

In CHRISTIAN ASTROLOGY William Lilly writes:

The angles are most powerful
the succeedents are next in virtue
the cadents poor, and of little efficacy:
the succeedent houses follow the angles
the cadents come next after the succeedents.

In force and virtue they stand so in order
:

1 10 7 4 11 5 9 3 2 8 6 12

The meaning whereof is this
that two planets equally dignified
the one in the Ascendant
the other in the tenth house
you shall judge the planet in the Ascendant somewhat of more power
to effect what he is significator of
than he that is in the tenth:
do so in the rest as they stand in order
remembering that planets in angles do more forcibly show their effects.


Tropical zodiac is "just a concept"
but you yourself use it


12 Sidereal Signs of equal length is a concept, as are those of Tropical. Alignment of the Sidereal Signs of equal length, on 12 of 13 constellations that cross the Ecliptic, is a concept, which is why the Ayanamsa varies from one Astrologer to another. The alignment of the Tropical Zodiac is based on precise Astronomically observable phenomena caused by Earth's axial tilt relative to the Ecliptic--the Equinoxes and Soltices--which is why the location of the Tropical Zodiac is entirely agreed upon. Modern Astrologers had to revive the ancient Traditional methods, and did so after Modern Astrology had been flourishing for over a Century.
Traditional Astrology has roots and two trunks, which produced the Modern branches that contain the twigs. In the West, some who are most attracted to the Traditional, Sidereal trunk have been known to denigrate the Traditional, Tropical trunk, for personal reasons. But, both trunks are sturdy, and very capable of supporting and nurturing the Modern branches of Astrology, which, in return, energize the study and practice of Traditional.
Nothing is wrong with "concepts", per se, if they provide useful information.
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  #241  
Unread 04-29-2017, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
On the contrary - you're simply grasping at twigs
fruit grows on branches


Traditional not only has roots
but also a trunk
and branches
as well as more than sufficient traditionalist twigs

Traditional has no need of Modernist insignificant twigs
which are simply rebranded, repackaged from Traditional root sources
Traditional uses the original methodology
Modernist is dependent on Traditional roots without which it cannot exist

SIGN PLACEMENT is a Traditional concept - not Modernist

SOLAR REVOLUTION aka SOLAR RETURN
HOUSE RULERS
ASPECTS
Removing those
as well as multiple all other TRADITIONAL techniques
from Modernist astrology
renders Modernist Astrology ridiculous
Modern Astrological techniques ARE the branches produced by the trunk and roots of Traditional. (Btw, fruit-spurs ARE twigs )
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  #242  
Unread 04-29-2017, 07:33 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
Aren't Astrological Houses just concepts? They are not physical structure. They are conceptually angular, succedent and cadent. They do not radiate energies, but the planets do?

We hear about planetary energies strong or weak, but never strong houses or weak houses?
Houses are conceptual. They do not exist up in the sky.

In horary and traditional natal astrology, houses can be strong or weak-- see my previous posts on this. In modern astrology, I would see the houses as different. Some are easier to deal with than others, but any strength would be conferred by planets, not by the houses themselves.

The world "rulerships" has several meanings, but we can talk about planets, signs, and houses each ruling different phenomena.
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #243  
Unread 04-29-2017, 07:40 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
[COLOR=Navy][B]MODERNIST astrologers no longer observe the planets
they simply use software written by others
and
that software calculation often differs
due to the individual opinions of the software writers


[/URL]
Not so. From my house on a hillside, I have a good view of the western sky. I often watch the geocentric movement of the sun north or south with the changing seasons, the moon phases as it sets in the west, and any planets that happen to be in the western sky at night. I've even seen an occidental Mercury out there just above the horizon after sunset, which is not easy to do.

You can see planets, stars, and connect-the-dots to see constellations. You cannot see either signs or houses.

Amateur interest in the night sky is not restricted to traditional astrologers-- "backyard" astronomy is really popular.

How many neo-traditional astrologers still calculate their own charts by hand?
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Last edited by waybread; 04-29-2017 at 07:43 PM.
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Unread 04-29-2017, 07:42 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

BTW, I think this is a thread about whether you can use signs and houses interchangeably. Not a re-hash of neo-traditional vs. modern or horticulture.
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Unread 04-29-2017, 07:49 PM
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btw, i think this is a thread about whether you can use signs and houses interchangeably. Not a re-hash of neo-traditional vs. Modern or horticulture.
lol.......
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Unread 04-29-2017, 07:58 PM
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BTW, I think this is a thread about whether you can use signs and houses interchangeably. Not a re-hash of neo-traditional vs. modern or horticulture.
Or Sidereal vs. Tropical. It would be informative to know how Vedic Astrologers view the Sign/Houses issue though.
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Unread 04-30-2017, 11:38 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Houses are conceptual. They do not exist up in the sky.

In horary and traditional natal astrology, houses can be strong or weak-- see my previous posts on this. In modern astrology, I would see the houses as different. Some are easier to deal with than others, but any strength would be conferred by planets, not by the houses themselves.

The world "rulerships" has several meanings, but we can talk about planets, signs, and houses each ruling different phenomena.

From Dykes book "Introduction to Traditional Astrology", and Obert's "Introduction to Traditional Natal Astrology", they are all talking about stength and power of planets, when in certain signs, but never strong house or powerful houses.

Houses are just areas of life especially in Tradition Astrology, they are saying. Of course the houses have Angularity, such as Angular, Succendent and Cadent, but it is only meaningful when and which planets are posited in them?
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Unread 04-30-2017, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
From Dykes book "Introduction to Traditional Astrology", and Obert's "Introduction to Traditional Natal Astrology", they are all talking about stength and power of planets, when in certain signs, but never strong house or powerful houses.

Houses are just areas of life especially in Tradition Astrology, they are saying. Of course the houses have Angularity, such as Angular, Succendent and Cadent, but it is only meaningful when and which planets are posited in them?
Signs are activated by placements. And, the characteristics of a Sign differ somewhat, depending on what indicator is in the Sign. Houses represent "areas of life", and the concept of their "strength or weakness" refers to the ability of Sun, Moon, and Planets to exert influence in the Chart when located in a particular type of house, described as Angular, Succedent, and Cadent.
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Unread 04-30-2017, 12:33 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by VonFinck View Post
This is how I see it:

Ex. A person has Aries Venus in the 12th house. They'll act like an Aries in a relationship but their romantic relationships may have 12th traits. (Secretive, Spiritual, Forbidden, Unavailable Partners)

Why? Because the sign would be how you experience the energy and the house would be where.

But I've seen a lot of people do this:

Ex. Venus In Pisces/12th House > Description, pretty much saying the 12th house and Pisces are the same.

I personally don't agree with this method but I'm still new to this and I could be wrong. Do you think it's acceptable to interpret it that way?
There is no right or wrong interpretation. I would agree largely, but then is it near the AC? if it's even just a loose conjunct (8-10 degrees), then it would a firm part of the person's character, more than if it were 20 degrees from the AC.

Is Venus trining another Fire sign? Or does it have many squares or oppositions? Is it trining the MC, which is possible, or trining or square the IC?

The exact interpretation depends on a number of factors, but none are "wrong".
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Unread 04-30-2017, 01:45 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post

From Dykes book "Introduction to Traditional Astrology",
and Obert's "Introduction to Traditional Natal Astrology",
they are all talking about stength and power of planets, when in certain signs,
but never strong house or powerful houses.

Houses are just areas of life especially in Tradition Astrology, they are saying.
Of course the houses have Angularity, such as Angular, Succendent and Cadent,
but it is only meaningful when and which planets are posited in them?

A PLANET acts

A HOUSE shows the AREA OF LIFE
in which the planet acts


as well as
how STRONGLY the planet is able to carry out its significations aka ACT


and

the QUALITY of the planet's expression
is influenced by
the SIGN LOCATION of the PLANET






THEN
dependent on time of birth
one of the twelve SIGNS

is pinned on each of the 12 basic 'houses'
the location of each SIGN on each individual natal chart
is comparable to an ENVIRONMENT and is NEUTRAL
and is neither weak nor strong nor partial


i.e.
to use an analogy from nature:
a cactus thrives in sand in harsh sun
and dies when placed in nutrient rich soil in shade

BUT
sand is NEUTRAL
sand IS NOT partial to cacti


similarly SIGNS are IMPARTIAL and NEUTRAL

another example:

a mushroom thrives when placed in nutrient rich soil in darkness
and dies when placed in sand in harsh sun

BUT
nutrient rich ground is NEUTRAL and is not PARTIAL to mushrooms


similarly SIGNS are IMPARTIAL and NEUTRAL

because
to be clear then:
Signs are COMPARABLE to an ENVIRONMENT
an environment is IMPARTIAL

SIGNS are neither weak nor strong
SIGNS are NEUTRAL




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