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  #26  
Unread 12-20-2019, 10:29 PM
wan wan is offline
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
But why aren’t you answering meee?
Because I don't answer loaded questions. Do you know what these are?


Last edited by wan; 12-20-2019 at 10:32 PM.
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  #27  
Unread 12-20-2019, 10:38 PM
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passiflora passiflora is offline
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Originally Posted by wan View Post
Because I don't answer loaded questions. Do you know what these are?
Do you always assume others donít know anything? Or frequently, sometimes, not very often, or not at all?
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  #28  
Unread 12-20-2019, 10:40 PM
wan wan is offline
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Do you always assume others donít know anything?
No. And it wasn't an unreasonable question. A lot of people don't know what a loaded question is.
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  #29  
Unread 12-20-2019, 10:41 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by wan View Post
You can't read. I have already told you, I am NOT asking you why you think you are right ON THIS ISSUE. I ask you why, IN GENERAL, you always think you are right. But of course, you will again not read, and come back with, "I am right on this immigration issue because of ___ and ____".

Do you know what "in general" means?
Yes and if you apply the same answer from this issue to any "general" issue, using evidence to come to a conclusion, you end up with the same answer. I'll believe I'm right as long as the data backs it up. Thats how the scientific method works.

I'm happy to change my mind if you provide me evidence to the contrary, but you still haven't. And I've answered this already.
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Originally Posted by wan View Post
This only tells me that you took certain factors into consideration. However, there is quite a bit of a leap from "I know there are certain factors", to "hence, I am right".

To give you an example, say I have a cold this morning when I wake up. I can say, maybe my cold is due to not having drunk enough fluids. Or maybe I exposed myself to the cold weather when I went out. Or maybe I was exposed to a sick person. All of these are "evidence-based", and they are all possible factors. However, I cannot say, "I know I am right", just because I could think up some factors.
Well I didn't want to do a wall of text, so I provided a few examples.

If you compare the data from many minorities who emmigrate to different countries, you may notice similarities between the communities and how they develop.

Lets take some UK 3rd world immigrants: Indian sikhs and hindus. Most of the individuals who belong to this cultural groups have low crime rates, a high degree of integration, and usually fare better economically. They don't depend on welfare as much as other groups (such as pakistanis).

From one perspective, this is group who fills all the categories in your statement (from the 3rd world with culture largely different from Europe). Yet they seem to adapt themselves pretty well, and don't seem to cause much chaos. Interesting isn't it?
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Last edited by Dirius; 12-20-2019 at 10:45 PM.
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  #30  
Unread 12-20-2019, 10:45 PM
kalinka kalinka is offline
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

A question from a german, who is irritated about the topic- when was Germany "great"? 1880? 1930?
"3rd worlders" aren't the problem. Just these unemployed xenophopias, which anxiety is that foreigners could take away their jobs they don't have or a non-christian church could be build in their valley, though they never had any real conflict with foreigners. I'm feeling very safe in my country. probably it comes off more dramatically for foreign countries.

Last edited by kalinka; 12-20-2019 at 10:47 PM.
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  #31  
Unread 12-20-2019, 10:48 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Yes and if you apply the same answer from this issue to any "general" issue, using evidence to come to a conclusion, you end up with the same answer. I'll believe I'm right as long as the data backs it up. Thats how the scientific method works.

I'm happy to change my mind if you provide me evidence to the contrary, but you still haven't. And I've answered this already.
Not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that in general, you are always right, because you use evidence and the scientific method?

Quote:
Well I didn't want to do a wall of text, so I provided a few examples.

If you compare the data from many minorities who emmigrate to different countries, you may notice similarities between the communities and how they develop.

Lets take some UK 3rd world immigrants: Indian sikhs and hindus. Most of the individuals who belong to this cultural groups have low crime rates, a high degree of integration, and usually fare better economically. They don't depend on welfare as much as other groups.

From one perspective, this is group who fills all the categories in your statement (from the 3rd world with culture largely different from Europe). Yet they seem to adapt themselves pretty well, and don't seem to cause much chaos. Interesting isn't it?
When I said "third-world", I meant in general. Of course there will be some groups that can and do adapt quite well. But this doesnt really mean anything, because the third-world is a huge group, and one is bound to encounter some success stories. The Sikhs and Hindus that you mentioned could very well be the exceptions. But in general, and yes I should have qualified the sweeping statement in my first post with this, third-worlders do more harm than good in host countries.
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  #32  
Unread 12-20-2019, 10:52 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by kalinka View Post
A question from a german, who is irritated about the topic- when was Germany "great"? 1880? 1930?
"3rd worlders" aren't the problem. Just these unemployed xenophopias, which anxiety is that foreigners could take away their jobs they don't have or a non-christian church could be build in their valley, though they never had any real conflict with foreigners. I'm feeling very safe in my country. probably it comes off more dramatically for foreign countries.
Well crime has gone up in Europe since the recent massive immigration from Africa, Asia and the Middle East, so there clearly is a connection. And this is a fact. There is no denying immigration as its currently being performed in Europe is causing a severe crisis.

You may be safe, but what about the women raped and murdered? Do they need to agree with said point?
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  #33  
Unread 12-20-2019, 10:55 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Well crime has gone up in Europe since the recent massive immigration from Africa, Asia and the Middle East, so there clearly is a connection. And this is a fact. There is no denying immigration as its currently being performed in Europe is causing a severe crisis.

You may be safe, but what about the women raped and murdered? Do they need to agree with said point?
Omg! This is the first post of yours I agree with in this thread.
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  #34  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:01 PM
kalinka kalinka is offline
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

Women are raped and murdered also from german men. There is just more media presence, especially from right-wing conservatives, when it happens through foreigners. The criminal rate of foreigners and german is quite the same.
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  #35  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:04 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by kalinka View Post
Women are raped and murdered also from german men. There is just more media presence, especially from right-wing conservatives, when it happens through foreigners. The criminal rate of foreigners and german is quite the same.
Why can't these foreigners stay in their home countries? Why did they have to come to Germany?
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  #36  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:11 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by wan View Post
Not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that in general, you are always right, because you use evidence and the scientific method?
Yes that is my answer wan, I base my responses on evidence which leads me to believe I am right. Sometimes I am wrong because the evidence I had was incomplete or just wrong, which at those times I have admited my mistaken and changed my mind.

But obviously while the evidence I'm using holds, I'm gonna believe I am right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post
When I said "third-world", I meant in general. Of course there will be some groups that can and do adapt quite well. But this doesnt really mean anything, because the third-world is a huge group, and one is bound to encounter some success stories. The Sikhs and Hindus that you mentioned could very well be the exceptions. But in general, and yes I should have qualified the sweeping statement in my first post with this, third-worlders do more harm than good in host countries.
No they don't. Indians are actually the major "minority" foreign born group in the UK, so they are the rule not the exception, so they can't be doing more harm than good.

The reason why they can succeed in the UK and not cause trouble is because they at large are more qualified, more entrepeneural, have less children, and depend less on welfare.

The reason other groups, such as pakistanis, are responsible for the majority of crimes committed by minorities in the UK, is because most amount of pakistanis that migrate to the UK are usually low skilled workers that won't be able to succeed in the british economic market. The usual consequence is a separation from the rest of the population for employment issues, which creates this guettos, in which immigrants only interact with each other. We can also factor in:

- Government welfare, which allows them to have large families (one man, with 7 children) - something otherwise imposible to sustain for a low skilled worker
- Lack of enforcement of proper laws: the government being too afraid to properly use police to take care of this communities.

This eventually leads to a huge number of young unemployed males (either foreign born or british born) who get used to a lack of authority from the state, while at the same time enjoying its benefits. This leads to crime, rape and murder.

If you have evidence that disproves this, I'm happy to admit I am wrong. But what I have stated can be replicated to immigration situations from many countries during different periods of time.
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  #37  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:13 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by wan View Post
Why can't these foreigners stay in their home countries? Why did they have to come to Germany?
Because Germany offers them free money, free health care, and does not enforce laws upon them (because it would be "racist").

To be plain, because Germany is a cuck nation offering free invitations to anyone willing to join the party, so they accept because its profitable.
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  #38  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:13 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by wan View Post
Why can't these foreigners stay in their home countries? Why did they have to come to Germany?
What's your fear? That other people with other ethnicity could opress your culture? Think about america... national borders are man-made walls.
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  #39  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:16 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by wan View Post
Omg! This is the first post of yours I agree with in this thread.
Wan you and I are on the same camp ideologically.

I think mass immigration has devastated Europe.

What I object is that this is because of "culture" or "ethnicity" (not that you implied the latter, just mentioning it). Many people who are from the 3rd world emmigrate to other nations and become law abiding citizens who contribute greatly to the host nation, respect it, and love it as their own homeland.
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  #40  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:19 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by kalinka View Post
Women are raped and murdered also from german men. There is just more media presence, especially from right-wing conservatives, when it happens through foreigners. The criminal rate of foreigners and german is quite the same.

The rate to which this occurs in relation to nationality is much higher for immigrants than it is for native born europeans.
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  #41  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:23 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Yes that is my answer wan, I base my responses on evidence which leads me to believe I am right. Sometimes I am wrong because the evidence I had was incomplete or just wrong, which at those times I have admited my mistaken and changed my mind.

But obviously while the evidence I'm using holds, I'm gonna believe I am right.
What if the person you are disagreeing with also bases his response on evidence and also uses the scientific method, and yet the two of you still arrive at radically different conclusions? Are you still always right? Also, what if the debate you are having is not based on matters of fact, but rather, it is philosophical in nature, where facts and evidence are less important (if at all)? Will you still be always right?


Quote:
No they don't. Indians are actually the major "minority" foreign born group in the UK, so they are the rule not the exception, so they can't be doing more harm than good.
I am not talking about immigrants in the UK. I am talking about the third-world immigrants as a group.

Quote:
The reason why they can succeed in the UK and not cause trouble is because they at large are more qualified, more entrepeneural, have less children, and depend less on welfare.
You need to prove the causal relationship, which is what your post implies. You need to prove that the reason these groups succeed in the UK is because they are qualified, more entrepeneurial, have fewer children etc etc.

Quote:
The reason other groups, such as pakistanis, are responsible for the majority of crimes committed by minorities in the UK, is because most amount of pakistanis that migrate to the UK are usually low skilled workers that won't be able to succeed in the british economic market. The usual consequence is a separation from the rest of the population for employment issues, which creates this guettos, in which immigrants only interact with each other. We can also factor in:

- Government welfare, which allows them to have large families (one man, with 7 children) - something otherwise imposible to sustain for a low skilled worker
- Lack of enforcement of proper laws: the government being too afraid to properly use police to take care of this communities.

This eventually leads to a huge number of young unemployed males (either foreign born or british born) who get used to a lack of authority from the state, while at the same time enjoying its benefits. This leads to crime, rape and murder.
Again, you need to prove the causal relationship. You need to prove that these things are caused by easy access to welfare and lack of law enforcement. Just because two things happen pretty closely, it does not mean one is caused by another.
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  #42  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:27 PM
wan wan is offline
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by kalinka View Post
What's your fear?
Did I say I fear immigration? Why are you putting words in my mouth?

Quote:
Think about america... national borders are man-made walls.
Then your property and the house on it are also "man-made walls". I suppose if I invade your home and start living in your bedroom, you will have no problem at all?
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  #43  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:42 PM
kalinka kalinka is offline
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

You are speaking about those, who represent a criminal danger. Not all immigrants want to take your money and rape your wife. And no- if they are an enrichment for my country, why I should have any problem with? It's about a risk group of foreigners and that for sure cannot be ignored. We have to distinguish between those who live acknowledged and those who have no perspective. While those with a perspective tend to commit crimes below average, people with no prospect of staying and jobs are frequently than average more criminal.
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  #44  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:43 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by wan View Post
What if the person you are disagreeing with also bases his response on evidence and also uses the scientific method, and yet the two of you still arrive at radically different conclusions? Are you still always right? Also, what if the debate you are having is not based on matters of fact, but rather, it is philosophical in nature, where facts and evidence are less important (if at all)? Will you still be always right?
Rather hypothetical example.

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Originally Posted by wan View Post
I am not talking about immigrants in the UK. I am talking about the third-world immigrants as a group.
That is your problem right there. You are placing people into groups that have no connection to one another, other than coming form the same geographical location.


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Originally Posted by wan View Post
You need to prove the causal relationship, which is what your post implies. You need to prove that the reason these groups succeed in the UK is because they are qualified, more entrepeneurial, have fewer children etc etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhis...United_Kingdom
British Sikhs are considered one of the best example of cultural integration in the United Kingdom. A strong work ethic combined with an emphasis on the importance of the family has been the reason why Sikhs have been so successful.

According to the ONS, the national average income for British households is approximately £40,000 before tax. With these values in mind the British Sikh Report 2014 found that Sikh households tend to be affluent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_...ion_in_society

According to analysis based on the 2011 census, Muslims in the United Kingdom face poor standards of housing, poorer levels of education and are more vulnerable to long-term illness, and that Muslims in the UK had the highest rate of unemployment, the poorest health, the most disability and fewest educational qualifications among religious groups. The figures were, to some extent, explained by the fact that Muslims were the least well-established group, having the youngest age profile.

In 2011, 24.0 per cent of British Muslims had degree level qualifications, compared to 27.2 per cent of the population as a whole 25.6 per cent of Muslims had no qualifications, compared to the national average of 22.7 per cent.


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Originally Posted by wan View Post
Again, you need to prove the causal relationship. You need to prove that these things are caused by easy access to welfare and lack of law enforcement. Just because two things happen pretty closely, it does not mean one is caused by another.
Statistically the majority of people emmigrate for economic reasons, seeking better opportunities. Those that fail to achieve economic succes in an area, usually leave (otherwise they die)

However if the state provides you welfare, there isn't a reason to leave.
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  #45  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:49 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by kalinka View Post
You are speaking about those, who represent a criminal danger. Not all immigrants want to take your money and rape your wife. And no- if they are an enrichment for my country, why I should have any problem with? It's about a risk group of foreigners and that for sure cannot be ignored. We have to distinguish between those who live acknowledged and those who have no perspective. While those with a perspective tend to commit crimes below average, people with no prospect of staying and jobs are frequently than average more criminal.

So, correct me if I am wrong, but you are advocating for tougher laws regarding immigration, right?
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  #46  
Unread 12-20-2019, 11:54 PM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Rather hypothetical example.
What are you saying? That those instances happen so rarely that you can safely not address them? Sounds like you are dodging.

Quote:
That is your problem right there. You are placing people into groups that have no connection to one another, other than coming form the same geographical location.
According to this "logic" of yours, we also cannot group people into Britons, Americans, the Dutch etc etc because they also have no connection to one another other than coming from the same location.

Secondly, please do not tell me that I "have a problem". You are not the arbiter of what is proper and what is not. And also do not tell me what I can or cannot do. If I want to lump all third-world immigrants into one group, that is my prerogative.

Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhis...United_Kingdom
British Sikhs are considered one of the best example of cultural integration in the United Kingdom. A strong work ethic combined with an emphasis on the importance of the family has been the reason why Sikhs have been so successful.

According to the ONS, the national average income for British households is approximately £40,000 before tax. With these values in mind the British Sikh Report 2014 found that Sikh households tend to be affluent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_...ion_in_society

According to analysis based on the 2011 census, Muslims in the United Kingdom face poor standards of housing, poorer levels of education and are more vulnerable to long-term illness, and that Muslims in the UK had the highest rate of unemployment, the poorest health, the most disability and fewest educational qualifications among religious groups. The figures were, to some extent, explained by the fact that Muslims were the least well-established group, having the youngest age profile.

In 2011, 24.0 per cent of British Muslims had degree level qualifications, compared to 27.2 per cent of the population as a whole 25.6 per cent of Muslims had no qualifications, compared to the national average of 22.7 per cent.
I don't want you to quote stuff from other people/sources. I want to hear from your own mouth how you can prove the causal relationship that you claim to see. If I wanted to read a bunch of pages from the internet, I could have just googled it.

Last edited by wan; 12-20-2019 at 11:57 PM.
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  #47  
Unread 12-21-2019, 12:06 AM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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So, correct me if I am wrong, but you are advocating for tougher laws regarding immigration, right?
Yes I do. The foreigners aren't the problem, in any case in the majority. The government just can't keep up by the immigration issue.
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  #48  
Unread 12-21-2019, 12:10 AM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by wan View Post
What are you saying? That those instances happen so rarely that you can safely not address them? Sounds like you are dodging.
Because you can either discuss the interpretation of authors, which would be one thing regarding (it is verifiable material), or something you came up on your own, which would be a hypothesis, ergo, something hypothetical.

You just provided a bad example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post
According to this "logic" of yours, we also cannot group people into Britons, Americans, the Dutch etc etc because they also have no connection to one another other than coming from the same location.

Secondly, please do not tell me that I "have a problem". You are not the arbiter of what is proper and what is not. And also do not tell me what I can or cannot do. If I want to lump all third-world immigrants into one group, that is my prerogative.
There is a linguistic and traditional connection between the individuals who conform such group. "Americans" for example, speak english and share multiple cultural similarities. People from "the 3rd world" such as someone from India shares little in common with someone from Paraguay

You can do whatever you want, its just wrong mate. And I'm hppy to point it out for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post
I don't want you to quote stuff from other people/sources. I want to hear from your own mouth how you can prove the causal relationship that you claim to see. If I wanted to read a bunch of pages from the internet, I could have just googled it.
I'm using statistical data, and providing you with facts. Not my fault you dislike it.
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Last edited by Dirius; 12-21-2019 at 12:17 AM.
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  #49  
Unread 12-21-2019, 12:16 AM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by kalinka View Post
Yes I do. The foreigners aren't the problem, in any case in the majority. The government just can't keep up by the immigration issue.
But if that is the case, if you toughen immigration laws, a large part of that majority wouldn't be able to enter the country correct?

Because searching for criminl records from much more corrupt countries isn't usually a reliable way to tell whether a person is a criminal or not, so usually the safest indicator is to use economic data (wealthier individuals are less likely to commit crime, according to statistics in any part of the world), and usually only allows individuals who are from the wealithier tier of society to enter the country.

So if you keep that position, it would probably mean europeans would cut back on about 80% to 90% of their immigration.

You support such thing?
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Last edited by Dirius; 12-21-2019 at 12:19 AM.
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  #50  
Unread 12-21-2019, 12:24 AM
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Re: Will Germany and Britain ever be great again?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Because you can either discuss the interpretation of authors, which would be one thing regarding is verifiable material, or something you came up on your own, which would be a hypothesis, ergo, something hypothetical.

You just provided a bad example.
Just because you cannot address my examples, it doesn't make them "bad". But keep dodging, though.

Quote:
here is a linguistic and traditional connection between the individuals who conform such group. "Americans" for example, speak english and share multiple cultural similarities.
Some Americans don't speak English. Also, some Americans also do not share multiple cultural similarities.

Quote:
People from "the 3rd world" such as someone from India shares little in common with someone from Paraguay
There *IS* a commonality between someone from India and someone from Paraguay--they are both from the third-world. They are also from countries that are h*ll-holes, and they are both a lot darker than white people. There, in just a few minutes, I have found some similarities. If you give me time, I can find more.

Quote:
You can do whatever you want, its just wrong mate. And I'm hppy to point it out for you.
Except it's not wrong. And keep thinking you are the arbiter of what's right and wrong. You don't put people off enough.

Quote:
I'm using statistical data, and providing you with facts. Not my fault you dislike it.
I never said I disliked it. I said I wanted to hear your own thoughts. You claim a causal relationship, so the onus is on you to prove it. But you weaseled out by linking to someone else' work. I guess you don't know how a proper debate works and you rely on others to do your thinking for you. But it's Ok though. I know you have trouble formulating your own argument. It is too mentally demanding for you. I understand.

Last edited by wan; 12-21-2019 at 12:28 AM.
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