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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 10-16-2018, 11:44 PM
GrignardReagent GrignardReagent is offline
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Planetary Strength

Hello, everyone!

Iíve been studying Traditinal Astrology as a hobby for a little bit now, but I suppose I wanted to venture out, and see whether anyone can help me understand the subject better.

Iíve tried using my own Natal chart to understand planetary strength much better, but am stumped. I donít necessarily agree with the strength Iíve managed to delineate, but I wonder if itís my interpretation that is off. In any case, I was hoping if anyone could shine light on what the strength of my planets are, based on traditional astrology.

Here is my chart, linked:

https://imgur.com/PZGevMz

Last edited by GrignardReagent; 10-16-2018 at 11:49 PM.
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Unread 10-17-2018, 05:03 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

You might start with the essential dignities:

Venus domiciled in Libra, Mars domiciled in Scorpio, Saturn domiciled in Aquarius.

Then think about accidental dignities: planets in angular houses, esp. the first.

Planets in other favourable houses, like the 5th (traditional house of good fortune,) Mercury joys in the first house

Aspects: trines, sextiles.

Mars looks extra-strong: domiciled, in the first house, and in a partile trine with the moon.

There's more to get to, but do you feel you've mastered this much, already?
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  #3  
Unread 10-22-2018, 12:49 AM
GrignardReagent GrignardReagent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
You might start with the essential dignities:

Venus domiciled in Libra, Mars domiciled in Scorpio, Saturn domiciled in Aquarius.

Then think about accidental dignities: planets in angular houses, esp. the first.

Planets in other favourable houses, like the 5th (traditional house of good fortune,) Mercury joys in the first house

Aspects: trines, sextiles.

Mars looks extra-strong: domiciled, in the first house, and in a partile trine with the moon.

There's more to get to, but do you feel you've mastered this much, already?
Yeah, Iíve gotten the gist of which planets are strong, and which are not based on their relative positions in my chart. I struggle with drawing inferences from these positions, though. Like, being able to interpret the data that I see.

For example, I know Mars is domicile in Scorpio, in the 1st house, and deposits my ASC, Sun and Mercury, but I donít know how to interpret that data correctly.
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  #4  
Unread 10-22-2018, 02:02 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Originally Posted by GrignardReagent View Post
Yeah, I’ve gotten the gist of which planets are strong, and which are not based on their relative positions in my chart. I struggle with drawing inferences from these positions, though. Like, being able to interpret the data that I see.

For example, I know Mars is domicile in Scorpio, in the 1st house, and deposits my ASC, Sun and Mercury, but I don’t know how to interpret that data correctly.
So Mars sounds like a real powerhouse in your chart. Are you "martial" in some way: athletic, aggressive, or a take-charge kind of person?

Do you want to post your chart? It's hard to say a lot without seeing it.
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Unread 10-22-2018, 12:39 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
So Mars sounds like a real powerhouse in your chart. Are you "martial" in some way: athletic, aggressive, or a take-charge kind of person?

Do you want to post your chart? It's hard to say a lot without seeing it.
Here is a link to his chart, Waybread: https://imgur.com/PZGevMz

I'll wait to hear GrignardReagent's response to your question about H1 Mars before saying anything of substance, but one general thing that comes to mind is this: when I first came to traditional astrology as a modern astrologer, I found it very difficult to break the habit of interpreting the entire chart psychologically. And to be honest, I still find myself falling into this bad habit.

I find that it is helpful to remember that in traditional and Hellenistic astrology, we are making use of a topical approach. And that the only house we use to describe a person's psychology would be the first house. All the rest have to do with the topics they concern.

I'm looking forward to hearing the response to your Mars question.

Last edited by Rhys; 10-22-2018 at 12:49 PM.
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Unread 10-22-2018, 02:59 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Planetary Strength

Quote:
I find that it is helpful to remember that in traditional and Hellenistic astrology, we are making use of a topical approach. And that the only house we use to describe a person's psychology would be the first house. All the rest have to do with the topics they concern.
That is not Hellenistic at all. Almost all authors seem consider the Moon to have some effect on character (perhaps equal since it is the rising sign of conception). Ptolemy does not focus on the rising sign except to some degree for temperament, instead he primarily uses predominating planets over Mercury and Moon - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/3D*.html#13

Valens, Firmicus and Rhetorius mention the Master of the Nativity influencing character. This seems to go back to Petosiris, here is how Riley translates it ''Petosiris seems to have defined the place perfectly, even though he spoke in mystic riddles: “The beginning, the end, the controller, and the measurement standard of the whole is the houseruling star of each nativity: it makes clear what kind of person the native will be, what kind of basis his livelihood will have, what his character* will be, what sort of body <=health and appearance> he will have, and all the things that will accompany him in life. Without this star nothing, neither occupation nor rank, will come to anyone.”'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

* - τρόποις - way, character

Last edited by petosiris; 10-22-2018 at 03:21 PM.
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  #7  
Unread 10-17-2018, 11:04 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardReagent View Post
Hello, everyone!
I’ve been studying Traditinal Astrology as a hobby for a little bit now, but
I suppose I wanted to venture out, and see whether anyone can help me
understand the subject better.
I’ve tried using my own Natal chart
to understand planetary strength much better, but am stumped.
I don’t necessarily agree with the strength I’ve managed to delineate, but
I wonder if it’s my interpretation that is off.
In any case, I was hoping if anyone could shine light
on what the strength of my planets are, based on traditional astrology.

Here is my chart, linked:

https://imgur.com/PZGevMz
'.....The art of synthesizing chart factors in the process of analysis
calls us to consider many factors. One of the most important is
to consider the strength and dignity of the planets.
The 'benefics' are not constant sources of good fortune,
the 'malefics' are not always damaging
nor is it fair to assume that all planets express an equal importance
at all times...'
COMPLETE FREE GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING PLANETARY STRENGTH
at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #8  
Unread 10-22-2018, 12:52 AM
GrignardReagent GrignardReagent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
'.....The art of synthesizing chart factors in the process of analysis
calls us to consider many factors. One of the most important is
to consider the strength and dignity of the planets.
The 'benefics' are not constant sources of good fortune,
the 'malefics' are not always damaging
nor is it fair to assume that all planets express an equal importance
at all times...'
COMPLETE FREE GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING PLANETARY STRENGTH
at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html
I apologize for double-posting, on my phone, haha. In any case, Iíve read over articles from Skyscript before. ItĒs helped me understand some factors, but others elude me, especially drawing interpretations after determining planetary strength.

For example, Venus is domicile in Libra, but in the 12th House, unaspected, so does Venus draw power from herself, or? Stuff like that, since the only connection she has to other planets is as a depositor.
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  #9  
Unread 10-23-2018, 03:27 AM
GrignardReagent GrignardReagent is offline
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Re: Planetary Strength

Thank you everyone for your responses. Also, I want to preface by apologizing by responding to everyone in such a general manner. Quoting by phone is proving to be a challenge.

In any case, to answer the first question, Iím not really athletic or aggressive in my mannerisms. Truth be told, Iím more emotional, or sad by nature, but not always. I usually go with what my emotions feel like. For example, if I donít feel particular in taking an exam, Iíll skip it, even if I know itíll effect me adversely later down the line.

Nonetheless, I actually corrected my chart ever so slightly to 7:21, because my birth time was at 7:15, but this places my Sun on the ASC making it difficult to ascertain whether itís above or below the horizon. I picked 21, cause itís my favorite number.

I feel more like I chase after the idea of love, and romanticize the notion of meeting someone special, but when I do, I get bored and move on. Itís hard to describe, to be honest.

Nonetheless, what can be said about an unaspected planet in traditional terms? Some articles state that the planet internalizes this energy, and being in the 12th house, I feel like Venus should be really weak, yet I feel her presence is strong.

Last edited by GrignardReagent; 10-23-2018 at 03:30 AM.
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  #10  
Unread 10-23-2018, 01:49 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardReagent View Post
I feel more like I chase after the idea of love, and romanticize the notion of meeting someone special, but when I do, I get bored and move on. It’s hard to describe, to be honest.

Nonetheless, what can be said about an unaspected planet in traditional terms? Some articles state that the planet internalizes this energy, and being in the 12th house, I feel like Venus should be really weak, yet I feel her presence is strong.
Thanks for your response, Grignard Reagent!

Venus is definitely strong in terms of her being in domicile.
However, what do we think about, Venus, the ruler of the twelfth place, being in the twelfth place, traditionally speaking? Also bearing in mind that Venus is also the ruler of the seventh place in GR's chart?

Last edited by Rhys; 10-23-2018 at 02:20 PM.
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Unread 10-23-2018, 10:14 PM
GrignardReagent GrignardReagent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhys View Post
Thanks for your response, Grignard Reagent!

Venus is definitely strong in terms of her being in domicile.
However, what do we think about, Venus, the ruler of the twelfth place, being in the twelfth place, traditionally speaking? Also bearing in mind that Venus is also the ruler of the seventh place in GR's chart?
Yeah, Venus deposits herself in the 12th house, a Cadent house that does not see the 1st house. Therefore, her power is limited, confined, including 7th house matters.

She is direct, free of combustion, and in her house, but I donít know if that means anything. Unaspected, so sheís restricted to her own house, unless you count depositorship as a means of connection with other planets.

She deposits Jupiter and my Moon, so maybe affects the houses ruled by those planets. I wish Venus aspected any planet so I can better interpret this data.

Itís funny, because, Mars and Saturn are so much stronger, yet I feel my personality resonates with Venus so much more, with love being my self-undoing more than anything else.

Traditional Astrology is difficult, because thereís so many small rules that come into play, such as degrees, triplicities, almutens, etc.

Edit: I read that the Chaldeans regarded Venus as joyful in the 12th house, or something like that. This confuses me more, and makes me wish that older astrologers could agree on most matters.

Last edited by GrignardReagent; 10-23-2018 at 10:18 PM.
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Unread 10-23-2018, 10:25 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Planetary Strength

Quote:
I read that the Chaldeans regarded Venus as joyful in the 12th house, or something like that.
Where did you read that? According to tradition, Saturn has its joy in the 12th house.
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  #13  
Unread 10-23-2018, 10:40 PM
GrignardReagent GrignardReagent is offline
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Where did you read that? According to tradition, Saturn has its joy in the 12th house.
I believe itís the Chaldean Order of the planets, with Saturn in the 1st, Jupiter in the second, and so forth based on their speed relative to the Sun.

According to Skyscript, Lilly also said this about Saturn in the first:

ĎAssociated Planets:
Mercury has its joy in the 1st; Lilly notes: "because it represents the head, and he the tongue, fancy and memory: when he is well dignified and posited in this house, he produces good orators".
Aries and Saturn are cosignificators: "for as this house is the first house, so is Aries the first sign, and Saturn the first of the planets; and therefore when Saturn is but moderately well fortified in this house, and in any benevolent aspect of Jupiter, Venus, Sun or Moon, it promises a good sober constitution of body, and usually long life"í

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Unread 10-24-2018, 03:39 PM
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Re: Planetary Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardReagent View Post
Yeah, Venus deposits herself in the 12th house, a Cadent house that does not see the 1st house. Therefore, her power is limited, confined, including 7th house matters.

She is direct, free of combustion, and in her house, but I donít know if that means anything. Unaspected, so sheís restricted to her own house, unless you count depositorship as a means of connection with other planets.

She deposits Jupiter and my Moon, so maybe affects the houses ruled by those planets. I wish Venus aspected any planet so I can better interpret this data.

Itís funny, because, Mars and Saturn are so much stronger, yet I feel my personality resonates with Venus so much more, with love being my self-undoing more than anything else.

<snip>
My dear GR

If we were in a consultation session, I would be looking at Venus in the 12th place being the ruler of the 7th place in addition to the other things you mentioned (Venus being the depositor of Jupiter in the 12th and of the Moon in the 5th, gosh we could talk about just that all night!) and I would be asking all kinds of questions concerning 7th place matters, fishing around as it were.

As was mentioned earlier by Waybread and Mr P, one can make this stuff as complicated as we would like, but ultimately it's fairly simple. The topic of the seventh place among other things is marriage and the fifth is children which implies a certain amount of sex in the mix :-) and the ruler is in the 12th place which among other things signifies dangers of some kind, which seems to tie in with your comments above. Anyway, if this were a consultation, I'd be fishing around in these areas.

So does having Venus in the 12th place mean that there is no hope for you with regard to Venusian type things?

Well, I'm sure that Waybread will have a thing or two to say about that, but I believe it was Mr P who said earlier that one mustn't get discouraged, for we have our ENTIRE LIFE to work out the energies in our charts. If we are here, we are here for a purpose, and the purpose can be found by reading our astrological chart, which defines our place in the manifest world. So from where I am sitting, all having Venus in the 12th place means is that when Venus is activated by the various time lords, you will have opportunities to work on your Venusian issues, which you will do with a certain amount of intensity and energy, and as we see in your chart you have all the necessary tools at your disposal to do this.

That's my take on it, at any rate.

Kind regards

Rhys
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Unread 10-25-2018, 01:38 AM
GrignardReagent GrignardReagent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhys View Post
My dear GR

If we were in a consultation session, I would be looking at Venus in the 12th place being the ruler of the 7th place in addition to the other things you mentioned (Venus being the depositor of Jupiter in the 12th and of the Moon in the 5th, gosh we could talk about just that all night!) and I would be asking all kinds of questions concerning 7th place matters, fishing around as it were.

As was mentioned earlier by Waybread and Mr P, one can make this stuff as complicated as we would like, but ultimately it's fairly simple. The topic of the seventh place among other things is marriage and the fifth is children which implies a certain amount of sex in the mix :-) and the ruler is in the 12th place which among other things signifies dangers of some kind, which seems to tie in with your comments above. Anyway, if this were a consultation, I'd be fishing around in these areas.

So does having Venus in the 12th place mean that there is no hope for you with regard to Venusian type things?

Well, I'm sure that Waybread will have a thing or two to say about that, but I believe it was Mr P who said earlier that one mustn't get discouraged, for we have our ENTIRE LIFE to work out the energies in our charts. If we are here, we are here for a purpose, and the purpose can be found by reading our astrological chart, which defines our place in the manifest world. So from where I am sitting, all having Venus in the 12th place means is that when Venus is activated by the various time lords, you will have opportunities to work on your Venusian issues, which you will do with a certain amount of intensity and energy, and as we see in your chart you have all the necessary tools at your disposal to do this.

That's my take on it, at any rate.

Kind regards

Rhys
Thank you for a quick summary on what Venus may have in store for me. I didnít realize that it was possible to ďactivateĒ certain energies for planets when appropriate.

I suppose Iíll see what life has to offer in the future. I still have a lot of questions, but am always trying to understand how to tie it all together.
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  #16  
Unread 10-25-2018, 04:12 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhys View Post
...
one mustn't get discouraged, for we have our ENTIRE LIFE to work out the energies in our charts. If we are here, we are here for a purpose, and the purpose can be found by reading our astrological chart, which defines our place in the manifest world. So from where I am sitting, all having Venus in the 12th place means is that when Venus is activated by the various time lords, you will have opportunities to work on your Venusian issues, which you will do with a certain amount of intensity and energy, and as we see in your chart you have all the necessary tools at your disposal to do this.

That's my take on it, at any rate.

Kind regards
Rhys[/QUOTE]

Rhys, this is so important.

A nativity is the moment of birth for a newborn baby, and moment 1.

Even if we're a bunch of fatalists who think the chart offers no wiggle-room, nobody would expect the baby, the adolescent, or even the young adult to have manifested his/her destiny.

Some of the Hellenistic astrological cookbook delineations in fact deal with predictions that would normally only come about for a middle aged person, like a prestigious political appointment. Or consider the prediction of a benign old age.

Just a bit of a correction to everyone if I might. Modern astrology does deal with predictions, but it tends to focus mightily on transits. A good book on this topic is Robert Hand, Planets in Transit. I think it's fair to say that the focus is more on one's evolving inner state, not so much on specific questions related to external matters, like traditional horary's more concrete concern with topics like missing objects, lawsuits, and marriage dates.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 10-25-2018 at 04:16 AM.
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Unread 10-25-2018, 04:00 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

GR, re: your finding Venus to be your primary definer.

I wonder if some of this is age-related. It's very natural for 20-somethings to be very concerned with relationships when they're not in a committed long-term relationship. The majority of "read my chart" and horary posts on this forum are about love, romance, and sex, and collectively, Venus is all over the map in these cases.

Possibly because your 12th house Venus seems like the "odd girl out" in your chart, her ability to express herself in your chart is inhibited. Because the 12th, among other things, is a place of seclusion, I wonder if she manifests as a secret love.

My feeling about astrology is to focus on the majors before considering the minors. The big facts about planets should tell the main story. There is no end to the fine detail. However, you might want to look at some of the Arabic parts to see if they offer more insight. There are several that deal with love and marriage.

http://libracentre.com/arabic_parts_chart.php
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Last edited by waybread; 10-25-2018 at 04:14 AM.
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Unread 10-23-2018, 04:57 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

I also check Dignities of Planets in other Varga Charts to get final conclusion.
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Unread 10-23-2018, 11:24 AM
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Re: Planetary Strength

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Originally Posted by Somna7H View Post


I also check Dignities of Planets in other Varga Charts to get final conclusion.
VARGA CHARTS are VEDIC astrology, not traditional Western
so not applicable method for this board
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