Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Other Astrology

Other Astrology Here, you can discuss anything else astrological that doesn't belong in the other boards. Includes medical astrology, mundane astrology, parts, sports astrology, research and development, degree symbols, fixed stars, asteroids, symbols systems, karma, and Aquarian astrology.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Unread 05-04-2018, 10:26 PM
Alzander's Avatar
Alzander Alzander is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Neptunian Paradox
Posts: 99
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Don’t you guys just love the ancient times? The mystery, the culture, the cleaner pure skies in which to observe from. ****, how magnificent.

This is why it slightly saddens me how many people can’t give it a chance and begin to understand the beauty of astrology, or at the very least, the stars.

Sure there was still bloody violence, famine, greed and patriarchal rule, only a fool would disagree with that but still, the wonders of time my friends, the wonders of time.

Reply With Quote
  #52  
Unread 05-04-2018, 10:31 PM
Alzander's Avatar
Alzander Alzander is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Neptunian Paradox
Posts: 99
Smile Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

On the subject of Capricorn and all it entails, perhaps we should delve in to the Saturn return as well.

I am very intrigued to see how my Saturn return plays out in my life and when it exactly may come, as I am no expert or educated in this area I shall leave it to you fine specimens to develop the discussion.

P.S will a Saturn return really shake me up based on what I’ve shown you from my chart? What do you foresee for me and yourselves? Feel free to share your charts too as I would like to see them. Thanks.
Attached Images
File Type: gif 484B8905-36E1-417B-BE77-1057E444CD71.gif (48.5 KB, 3 views)
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Unread 05-04-2018, 10:32 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 46,966
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alzander View Post


Don’t you guys just love the ancient times?
The mystery, the culture, the cleaner pure skies
in which to observe from. ****, how magnificent.

This is why it slightly saddens me
how many people can’t give it a chance
and begin to understand the beauty of astrology, or
at the very least, the stars.

Sure there was still bloody violence, famine, greed
and patriarchal rule, only a fool would disagree with that
but still, the wonders of time my friends, the wonders of time.


__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
Alzander (05-04-2018)
  #54  
Unread 05-05-2018, 01:34 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 13,977
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
.....

However, the seasonal considerations joke is not applicable to Taurus with the Pleaides, which appears in the paleolithic Lascaux cave. The 6000 years old or more constellations of Scorpio and Leo would also not as tightly align with Ptolemaic logic.
What happened with the Pleiades is that they were used in phenology and in the ancient celestial calendars. Though faint, they are usually easy to find. It's hard to say how Paleolithic people understood the heavens.

The point being that a celestial calendar is not merely or only one kind of zodiac or calendar vs. another. The Babylonians did both. Did they have a problem? On your sidereal thread, I posted all kinds of information on how critical solar positions were to the henge and barrow builders of the Bronze Age-- and even earlier; and how the solstices, equinoxes, and their midpoints were important holidays in historic times.

You can't just blow off evidence simply because you dislike it.

Quote:
The evidence of constellations long before seasons around the 2nd century Mediterranean make me highly doubt Ptolemaic rationale.
Hardly. Ancient people were entirely aware of the seasons, although the seasons varied based on location. How could they not have been? The seasons were different in Scandinavia than in the Mediterranean islands, but summer and winter are quite different, regardless.

Quote:
If it was seasonal, then it would make the astrological sign POWERLESS in the Southern Hemisphere (and arguably in high latitudes and the equator). For those reasons I completely reject the powers of Ptolemy and prefer to ascribe them to the sidereal images, as the Babylonians and early Hellenistic, Persian and Indian astrologers did.
Again, Petosiris, you simply ignore solid information that you don't like.

1. The Hellenistic astrologers essentially had a northern hemisphere project. They doubted that the equator and antipodes (as anciently defined) were habitable by humans. Maybe you shouldn't even try to apply Hellenistic astrology to the southern hemisphere if you wish to retain your loyal adherence to ancient astrology.

2. High latitudes definitely have seasons. Have you ever been to the Arctic? What doesn't work so well at high latitudes are house systems.

3. Actually, there is no evidence that signs have power. Planets have power. They are the actors, like the subject noun in a sentence. Signs work like adjectives or adverbs. (Or is this too modern for you?)

4. Then you have to explain why southern hemisphere astrologers have long used the northern-based zodiac with good results in chart-readings.

5. Equinoxes and solstices occur on the same dates in both hemispheres.

Quote:
There is not a single coherent reason from a divinatory or naturalistic standpoint to continue to use the tropical zodiac for me astrologically. It might be divinatory in some numerological or lots sense, but it is not astrology rationally. Whenever tropical astrologers today present rationales and arguments, they are always logical fallacies and not indicative of their practice. To some extent, Ptolemy had good reasons for his astrology and cosmology at the time, today astrologers do not.
Oh, sure there are coherent reasons. Nobody says you have to use tropical. It's just a bit much, however, for you to scold people who prefer tropical.

The main reason is that the tropical system yields good readings, whether traditional western or modern. Or would you simply erase centuries of Muslim, western Medieval and Renaissance traditional astrology? Is it all rubbish, in your opinion, because they used a tropical zodiac?

Divination, for a number of ancient astrologers, was based on establishing the proper relationship with the god (usually Hermes) through preparation and prayer. You may be familiar with theurgy, whereby the adept astrologer actually thought he became the god. Whereas a mere mortal might err, the god's knowledge would be perfect.

If astrology truly is a form of divination, then it would be seem to be based upon something far more profound than which zodiac you used.

http://www.medievalastrologyguide.com/theurgy.html

http://www.astrozero.co.uk/articles/...gtheMoment.pdf

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...8ba469e8bde1b4

On Neo-platonism in astrology: http://www.astrolom.no/wp-content/up...51P2695439.pdf

Well, if there are deeper truths underpinning astrology, the cosmos, and everything, astrology cannot be so feeble or shallow so as to hinge simply upon one particular method.

If you find sidereal astrology to be profoundly meaningful on a personal level, that's great.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Unread 05-05-2018, 01:42 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 13,977
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoam1 View Post
You both are techniquely in the wrong as ancient astrologers that I am speaking of went outside and looked at the stars...
As ephemerides became available in ancient times, astrologers looked less at the heavens and more to ephemerides. See: Daryn Lehoux, Observation and Prediction in Ancient Astrology. Studies in History and Philosophy of Science 35 (2004) p. 227-246.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Unread 05-05-2018, 01:43 AM
Whoam1's Avatar
Whoam1 Whoam1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alzander View Post
On the subject of Capricorn and all it entails, perhaps we should delve in to the Saturn return as well.

I am very intrigued to see how my Saturn return plays out in my life and when it exactly may come, as I am no expert or educated in this area I shall leave it to you fine specimens to develop the discussion.

P.S will a Saturn return really shake me up based on what I’ve shown you from my chart? What do you foresee for me and yourselves? Feel free to share your charts too as I would like to see them. Thanks.
You have to look at Mars too, it rules Capricorn as well. I use the actual constellations in my chart is have to hand draw it to display it.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Unread 05-05-2018, 01:51 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 13,977
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

....

And of course, philosophically speaking, there are two other options, there might be a third zodiac that is better than those two, or that there is no validity to any zodiac.
The third zodiac was and could be now based upon constellations, not signs. See John Lash, Quest For The Zodiac.

The fourth "zodiac" isn't entirely a zodiac so much as a whole-sky system. See Bernadette Brady's attempt to recreate the Babylonian heavens for our time. She calls it "visual astrology."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cao-fyS3Ao

I'm not a fan of heliocentric astrology, but there's that.

Then Magi astrology pays special attention to declination (parallels and counter-parallels.)
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Unread 05-05-2018, 04:56 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 13,977
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Whoam1, If you're interested in the history of Capricorn, I'll pass along this picture of Phoenician ships. Sorry I don't have a date on it, but their civilization existed from about 2500 BCE through the early common era.

The ship heads have been described as horses, but they look goat-like to me. Note the tails.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg phonician ships.jpg (168.1 KB, 3 views)
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Unread 05-05-2018, 06:33 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 17,481
Smile Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Now THIS is a worthwhile, purely Sidereal contribution. Very cool. Here's a question: Is what a Tropicalist thinks of as Capricornian qualities the same as a Western Siderealist describes them?
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Unread 05-05-2018, 11:29 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 17,481
Smile Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Then also
Modernist Western Tropical Astrologers use precessed charts
Solar Fire has an option for "precession corrected Western Tropical Astrology charts"
simply use Sidereal
Or, simply use Vedic instead of Western Siderealism. It has a more coherent lineage.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Unread 05-05-2018, 12:09 PM
Whoam1's Avatar
Whoam1 Whoam1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Now THIS is a worthwhile, purely Sidereal contribution. Very cool. Here's a question: Is what a Tropicalist thinks of as Capricornian qualities the same as a Western Siderealist describes them?

Capricorn:Survival and autonomy needs foremost. Sociable; not self-disclosing (cold/aloof). Humor, storyteller, prankish, music. Good resource manager. Struggles against tough odds. Discontent, combative, resists persuasion and conformity. Values past; defies status quo. Emotions cautious initially. Extreme libido."

Mysterious, moody/ vulnerable to dark moods, could be called edgy (attraction to the occult), may vice (use drugs and alcohol to de-stress). Emotions cautious to protect its hyper emotional state (that is often hidden). Give everything to the small amount of people they truly let past their walls. Misuderstood as unemotional, in actuality is guarded emotional.

Spiritual lesson is "to come to the water" to let go of material things, realising that they do not form happiness, but rather healthy relationships form happiness (including self relationships). May have to face their emotional depths to get here.


The first paragraph is western sidereal Capt Sun, they also put emphasis on Mars and Moon sign (Ego,Emotional [mask],and action). Second two are my notes, because my Mars is exalted in Capricorn i can make an argument it is my sign In sidereal astrology and in tropical it is my sign undoubtedly.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Unread 05-05-2018, 01:45 PM
Abby83's Avatar
Abby83 Abby83 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoam1 View Post
Many of you know that I've learned to appreciate this sign, weither it is my Sun and rising sign as tropical astrology would dictate, or as a dominant sign containing Mars, Uranus, Neptune, and the southern Node of the Moon as my sidreal chart would speak.

I'd like to just respect the roots of this sign and modernize it to today. Capricorn in the classical days of astrology was said to be the harbinger of storms and therefore the ruler of the Sea. It's mood, even in modern astrology, is said to shift dramatically much like it's glyph and the current if the Sea.

In Vedic astrology this sign is more often shown as a hybrid alligator or Crocodile rather than the goat it is shown by in modern astrology today. It is called Makara, meaning crocodile, an animal comfortable on land or in sea. The sign was said to be on the spiritual journey of going from materialism to finding the true value in its own subconscious depths.

It is also compared to the Summarian God Enki, part man part goat, later known as Ea. Who is God of Wisdom, Magic, and Water. However water also entailed semen, making Capricorn under Ea a highly sexualized sign.

This leads into the more modern mythology of Pan, who turned into a fish trying to escape an adversary, but failed to transform in complete, making the goat headed fish we view Capricorn as today. He also is highly sexed much like Ea, look at the word horny today for an even more modern example.

I think it's quiet sad we often "chop off Capricorns tail" to make him fit into our evenly distributed elemental zodiac charts today. One could argue Capricorns don't get emotional enough to be a water sign, however people like MLK are surely emotional heavy beings. This on top of the Stormy temper that Capricorns display, I'm not convinced that Capricorn is as earthy as we try to say in Modern astrology today.
I disagree Capricorn is a water sign. I just think you have a watery Capricorn cos of Neptune in cap in your first house and your ascendant ruler in your 4th.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Unread 05-05-2018, 01:53 PM
Whoam1's Avatar
Whoam1 Whoam1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby83 View Post
I disagree Capricorn is a water sign. I just think you have a watery Capricorn cos of Neptune in cap in your first house and your ascendant ruler in your 4th.
It was a water and earth sign sense probably the turn of the century.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Unread 05-05-2018, 02:28 PM
Abby83's Avatar
Abby83 Abby83 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoam1 View Post
It was a water and earth sign sense probably the turn of the century.
But I still think it WAS incorrect.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Unread 05-05-2018, 05:12 PM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 17,481
Smile Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby83 View Post
But I still think it WAS incorrect.
How do you explain the symbolism of the fishes' tail? It's a very ancient version of the Sign.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Unread 05-05-2018, 09:08 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 13,977
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Whoam1, You recall Alice in Through the Looking Glass?

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

Of course, we know what happened to the big egg (ego.)

Astrology does grow and develop. It did anciently, medievaly, and modernly. But there is a way that astrology throughout the ages has been put together, so it's best if we study it in some depth before trying to change it. (And I'm not saying you haven't done that.)

earth: practical, material
air: mental
fire: enthusiastic, action-oriented
water: emotional, sometimes spiritual.

cardinal: initiating
fixed: well, actually, fixed
mutable: adaptive

Capricorn has many notable qualities as the cardinal earth sign. I do modern astrology, but in a more classical way, and I have studied traditional western astrology up to a certain point. If we erase all of the pop-schlock stuff said about Capricorn (and about the other signs, as well,) we end up with something more pure and unique.

For some reason, I love reading books by female mountaineers, world-class sailors, and other types of risk-taking outdoorswomen. Gender aside (because I also love the books by Maurice Herzog, Jon Krakauer, and Thor Heyerdahl,) the extreme rock-climbers and small craft ocean navigators are what I see in Capricorn at its best. Initiating. Mars exalted. Practical (or they wouldn't survive half way up a multi-day extreme climb, or major storm at sea.) Saturnian self-discipline and deferred gratification. (Nobody makes it halfway up a "big wall" without serious self-discipline and the ability to cope with serious physical discomfort.)

The businessman stereotype doesn't work for me at all, and I think it's due to an unfortunate and misplaced conflation of Saturn (the old boss,) Capricorn, and the 10th house. The 10th modernly shows one's career, but in Hellenistic astrology it was more like one's public image. The 10th has to do with one's vocation or calling in life, not particularly or necessarily a big business orientation.

I think sometimes people get turned off by modern astrology's ideosyncracies and excesses, and rightly so; but if you take a more classical approach to it, you may not see the need to turn Capricorn into something else due to unhappiness with unfortunate and wrong-headed stereotypes.

Again, I hope you will read Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky. I think it's available electronically and is in print, probably at your nearest New Age bookstore. He's a sun Capricorn who has, later in life, taken a strong left-turn into evolutionary astrology; but The Inner Sky is just a terrific book for seeing astrology as a dynamic system. Astrology is not about a bunch of static character traits.

Are you a noun or a verb?
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 05-05-2018 at 09:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Unread 05-05-2018, 09:59 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 46,966
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


1. They had the good reason to use both sidereal and seasonal reasonings in their astrology. However, the sidereal ground is more stable, coherent and should be the basis of the zodiac. If the ancients around Ptolemy actually were doing tropical astrology, today no one is doing tropical astrology, because no tropical astrologer today takes account of the weather. As I said it is very incoherent.
2. They do not have remotely similar weather to Greece and Egypt, for which Ptolemy was writing in the Tetrabiblos. That is what I was referring to as ''powers.''
3. That is modern and only based because tropical astrologers have discovered that their signs have no power and rationale anymore. I make no difference between the stars of the twelve images and the stars of the seven spheres.
4. I do not have to explain anything. I just doubted the conceptual arguments put forward.
5. The solstices and equinoxes are also the most contrary points in tropical perspective. That is they are the most different. By not reversing the zodiac, you do not account for one pretty important astronomical and in my opinion logical astrological observation related to daylight and weather.

Heliacal risings and settings also do not work very well in the arctic. We need different astrology for those regions and especially for space exploration.

Then also
Modernist Western Tropical Astrologers use precessed charts
Solar Fire has an option for "precession corrected Western Tropical Astrology charts"
simply use Sidereal


Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Or, simply use Vedic instead of Western Siderealism. It has a more coherent lineage.
precessing Western Tropical Astrology charts as many do is simply incoherent
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Unread 05-06-2018, 01:42 AM
Whoam1's Avatar
Whoam1 Whoam1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Whoam1, You recall Alice in Through the Looking Glass?

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

Of course, we know what happened to the big egg (ego.)

Astrology does grow and develop. It did anciently, medievaly, and modernly. But there is a way that astrology throughout the ages has been put together, so it's best if we study it in some depth before trying to change it. (And I'm not saying you haven't done that.)

earth: practical, material
air: mental
fire: enthusiastic, action-oriented
water: emotional, sometimes spiritual.

cardinal: initiating
fixed: well, actually, fixed
mutable: adaptive

Capricorn has many notable qualities as the cardinal earth sign. I do modern astrology, but in a more classical way, and I have studied traditional western astrology up to a certain point. If we erase all of the pop-schlock stuff said about Capricorn (and about the other signs, as well,) we end up with something more pure and unique.

For some reason, I love reading books by female mountaineers, world-class sailors, and other types of risk-taking outdoorswomen. Gender aside (because I also love the books by Maurice Herzog, Jon Krakauer, and Thor Heyerdahl,) the extreme rock-climbers and small craft ocean navigators are what I see in Capricorn at its best. Initiating. Mars exalted. Practical (or they wouldn't survive half way up a multi-day extreme climb, or major storm at sea.) Saturnian self-discipline and deferred gratification. (Nobody makes it halfway up a "big wall" without serious self-discipline and the ability to cope with serious physical discomfort.)

The businessman stereotype doesn't work for me at all, and I think it's due to an unfortunate and misplaced conflation of Saturn (the old boss,) Capricorn, and the 10th house. The 10th modernly shows one's career, but in Hellenistic astrology it was more like one's public image. The 10th has to do with one's vocation or calling in life, not particularly or necessarily a big business orientation.

I think sometimes people get turned off by modern astrology's ideosyncracies and excesses, and rightly so; but if you take a more classical approach to it, you may not see the need to turn Capricorn into something else due to unhappiness with unfortunate and wrong-headed stereotypes.

Again, I hope you will read Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky. I think it's available electronically and is in print, probably at your nearest New Age bookstore. He's a sun Capricorn who has, later in life, taken a strong left-turn into evolutionary astrology; but The Inner Sky is just a terrific book for seeing astrology as a dynamic system. Astrology is not about a bunch of static character traits.

Are you a noun or a verb?
You put too much value on this element system. Look at the planets Mars-water
Saturn-earth, Capricorn is Mars and Saturn Water-Earth.

If that isn't good enough Vedic astrology views Capricorn as an alligator(water and earth), Sidreal uses the Sea-goat, Greeks used pan but also described Capricorn as the sign of "death at sea", the astronomer Ptolemy saw Capricorn as a moist sign, the Summarian and Mesopotamian cultures saw Capricorn as the God of water.

I don't always go for the status quo, however they all disseminate the watery nature of the sign if not in full at least in partial. My unaspected Neptune in first house Capricorn may be bringing out the nature of Capricorns more stormy side but from my stand point it looks as if your purely in denial, using a rigid system. I think it would be good for you to read what I said about the spiritual nature if Capricorn.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Unread 05-06-2018, 02:14 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 13,977
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoam1 View Post
You put too much value on this element system. Look at the planets Mars-water
Saturn-earth, Capricorn is Mars and Saturn Water-Earth.

If that isn't good enough Vedic astrology views Capricorn as an alligator(water and earth), Sidreal uses the Sea-goat, Greeks used pan but also described Capricorn as the sign of "death at sea", the astronomer Ptolemy saw Capricorn as a moist sign, the Summarian and Mesopotamian cultures saw Capricorn as the God of water.

I don't always go for the status quo, however they all disseminate the watery nature of the sign if not in full at least in partial. My unaspected Neptune in first house Capricorn may be bringing out the nature of Capricorns more stormy side but from my stand point it looks as if your purely in denial, using a rigid system. I think it would be good for you to read what I said about the spiritual nature if Capricorn.
This isn't "just me," Whoam1. Don't personalize this.

As you know I do a kind of conservative version of modern astrology, but if you want to get traditional about it, planets in and of themselves are not specifically related to signs except insofar as they've got essential dignities in them.

Planets may be described in terms of the Aristotelian humours: hot, cold, wet, dry. So we might associate the cool moist moon with the water sign Cancer, but then it exalts in the earth sign Taurus. Hot, dry Mars rules both the feminine water sign of Scorpio and the masculine fire sign of Aries.

Applying the supposed qualities of the constellations to mathematically-derived 30-degree segments of the heavens bears a little unpacking. Aquarius is the "water bearer" but it's an air sign. Scorpions anciently were known as venomous desert arthropods, but they are a water sign.

Insofar as Vedic astrology goes, no alligators in the following:

http://astrosamadhan.blogspot.ca/p/blog-page_23.html

http://astrosamadhan.blogspot.ca/p/blog-page_23.html

http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/hba/hba04.htm

https://www.pavitrajyotish.com/capricorn/

All of these sites show a sea-goat and define Capricorn as an earth sign.

Why is it so important for you to define Capricorn as a water sign, in the first place? This is personal for you, isn't it? Do you somehow see water as superior to earth? And, if so, for what reason?
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Unread 05-06-2018, 03:24 AM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,200
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

In the Hellenistic tradition, the Crab and the Goat-Horned One are watery and amphibian, because the images appear to possess the ability to live above water. The Water-Pourer is anthropomorphic and very watery. The Fishes are very watery and are not amphibian, they are fishes.

And by amphibian they meant that it is both watery and earthy. Scorpio, for example, is wholly terrestrial.

I think only a minority Hellenistic astrologers applied the four elements to the triplicities/winds. I think they disagreed with that because of the apparent imagery.

Scorpio to some extent may signify cohesion. Sagittarius to some extent may signify heat. Capricorn to some extent may signify solidity. Aquarius to some extent may signify movement. But to apply the four classical elements without their abstraction confuses the imagery.

Last edited by petosiris; 05-06-2018 at 03:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Unread 05-06-2018, 03:26 AM
CapAquaPis's Avatar
CapAquaPis CapAquaPis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ...in the sidereal astrological system.
Posts: 1,969
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

I came to believe Capricorn and Aquarius are wet signs, if not water signs, the representatives of winter (the rainy season) in Mesopotamia. Capricorn is the sea-goat and Aquarius is the water carrier, both are thought to relate to the rainy season. Both are ruled by the planet Saturn (and Uranus), I suppose the two planets are thought to have a meteorological connection in astrology.
__________________
or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Unread 05-06-2018, 03:36 AM
Whoam1's Avatar
Whoam1 Whoam1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapAquaPis View Post
I came to believe Capricorn and Aquarius are wet signs, if not water signs, the representatives of winter (the rainy season) in Mesopotamia. Capricorn is the sea-goat and Aquarius is the water carrier, both are thought to relate to the rainy season. Both are ruled by the planet Saturn (and Uranus), I suppose the two planets are thought to have a meteorological connection in astrology.
As the same realization for me. Aquarius the moisture in the air if you will, Capricorn as David says, the oceans of the earth.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Unread 05-06-2018, 05:08 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 13,977
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

I think it's important not to confuse the imaginary visual imagery of constellations with the Aristotelian qualities: hot, cold, wet, dry.

Please note that the western constellations are not objectively real. If you doubt me, look and see, cross-culturally, how non-western cultures across time and space have construed the heavens. Or just look at the stars that make up the constellation Capricorn, and explain how you construe a sea-goat from them. Sometimes the myths didn't relate to the visual form of the constellation, but to local events that coincided with the sun in that constellation. A good example is Aries.

If you want to say that Capricorn or Aquarius is watery, what does this mean to you? How would it affect your horoscope reading?

Anciently these constellations were part of a region of the sky called "the sea," perhaps in part because the sun was in some of these constellations during the Mediterranean winter rainy season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_(astronomy)

But do you mean by saying that Cap and Aqua are watery, that their primary way of relating to life is through their emotions, feelings, and perhaps spirituality? Well, if this works for you, in your hundreds of chart readings for people, fine. If this is just your theoretical belief based upon a connect-the-dots view of constellations, with minimal relationship to an astrological practice, then isn't it just idiosyncratic?

As an air sign, Aquarius symbolically relates to rain, vs. to surface water. But if you know sun-Aquarians or people with an Aquarian emphasis in their charts, I don't think you will find them to be highly emotional, unless they also have strong water in their charts, such as a moon in Cancer, or a stellium in Pisces.

Whoam1, just another point. One thing you'll notice reading Hellenistic astrology is a lot of areas of either disagreement, or points that we don't take today. Some astrologers believed that constellations had tutelary deities that were not linked to actual planets. The goddess Ceres (Demeter) was linked to Virgo, for example; and Athena to a portion of Aries. Then Pan was not a water god, so I don't see how he helps your case.

Are you familiar with this site: www.theoi.com ? Just highly recommended for anyone wishing to explore Greek mythology.

On Pan: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Pan.html

Pan was anciently depicted as a man with goat legs, horns, and a randy proclivity for chasing nymphs. (Prior to #Metoo) Possibly here is the link to the sea-goat Capricorn, but it's hard to see what you'd do with Pan in a horoscope reading.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 05-06-2018 at 05:11 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Unread 05-06-2018, 05:12 AM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,200
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Pan was anciently depicted as a man with goat legs, horns, and a randy proclivity for chasing nymphs. (Prior to #Metoo) Possibly here is the link to the sea-goat Capricorn, but it's hard to see what you'd do with Pan in a horoscope reading.
The Anonymous of 379 text which focuses on fixed stars at angles claims the following:

In particular, if some signs and unwandering stars are in the degree of the place of gods or in the degree of the subterranean angle as well as when they rise at the horoscope, they render great assistance and help to a person who is born owing to a divine apparition or by means of dreams...
When the stars set in the horns of Capricorn, the Kids and the Goat, are in the above-mentioned places, they bring support or the apparitions of Pan or of Mercury, especially when a benefic planet watches the places we have mentioned.
- http://www.cieloeterra.it/eng/eng.te...9/eng.379.html
* the text says Hermes, not Mercury, and most likely meant the Greek god not the Roman one.

Obviously they are related to actual constellations.

Quote:
If you want to say that Capricorn or Aquarius is watery, what does this mean to you? How would it affect your horoscope reading?
Surprise, it does not mean spirituality or intuition. Water means water. Your property may be near water, your disease might be moist, your personality might be moist or your death might be by water.

I was just looking at a chart today where the person recounted an actual accident in childhood surrounding water that brings suffering to him and he has the Moon in Cancer in the 12th squared by the two malefics from Aries (Mars within minutes). There is nothing such in his tropical chart to account for this accident, there is no placement in a watery sign aside from Jupiter and Venus in the 7th - Pisces.
Sidereally, Venus in its bound in Pisces trines the Moon.

The sidereal chart is thus:
Leo rising, Jupiter in Aquarius, Venus and Mercury in Pisces, Saturn, Sun and Mars in Aries, Moon in Cancer, Lot in Scorpio, preceding New Moon in Aries.

The tropical chart is thus:
Virgo rising, Jupiter and Venus in Pisces, Mercury and Saturn in Aries, Sun and Mars in Taurus, Moon in Leo, Lot in Sagittarius, preceding New Moon in Taurus.

(And by the way, the person has problems with eyesight, just as Valens, Rhetorius, the divine Ptolemy and others have assigned to Cancer because of the Beehive Cluster and 6 other signs because of specific star clusters.)

Last edited by petosiris; 05-06-2018 at 06:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (05-06-2018)
  #75  
Unread 05-06-2018, 06:19 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 46,966
Re: Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Petosiris, my big interest is in tracking the origins of Hellenistic astrology,
more as an historian would do it.
I'm not about to become a latter-day Hellenistic astrologer
to read charts in the here-and-now.

I gather that you are interested in both the history and the practice.
I am perfectly comfortable with my approach.


Valens in his first introduction to the signs
says horrible things about Aquarius and Capricorn
with Capricorn being the worst.
Whether due to his actual concept for his book, or whether
2 millennia later, we are missing pieces of some explanatory text
Valens doesn't actually say what you do with this "knowledge"
about wretched signs, but let's face it.
Nobody is going to read a nativity for a sun-Capricorn in this way today.

I could quote all kinds of horrible things
that various Hellenistic astrologers said
about various horoscopic placements and their chart natives.
We don't (or shouldn't) talk to horoscope natives this way today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Some Hellenistic astrology is ugly indeed.
(For example, woe betide any miscreant with Mars opposite Saturn
in a "dishonerable" position.)


Frankly I'd be happy if the traditional/modern divisiveness just went away.
an example of dire modernist astrological interpretation
describes en masse
'the Pluto in Cancer generation' as follows

For the Pluto-in-Cancer generation
the 'devil' took the form of the Twisted Parent
quietly inflicting horrible destruction on anything 'cute'.
Under the umbrella of face-saving silences, horrors multiplied:
keeping the 'dangerous' world safely outside the shell
allowed what is within to fester
to grow strange and unnatural
.
These darker, secretive aspects of Pluto-in-Cancer's passion for safety
breed monsters that reside in Cancer territory - The home!
The Family is where we now enter the realm of real darkness.

In the darker Plutonian corners of the human spirit, the ancient beast was plotting
and in this case, it was against the very creatures who needed nurture
.

There was a silent, unmarked epidemic of child abuse, sexual, physical, and psychological
during the years that the Pluto-in-Cancer generation of people
was raising its families. Skye Alexander
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ancient, capricorn, sign, water

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.