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  #1  
Unread 03-24-2018, 02:19 PM
GeminiStarr GeminiStarr is offline
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Is my POF in 11th or 12th house?

My POF is right on the line of the 11th and when I look at its placement under additional tables it says it's in the 11th BUT when I read the description/interpretation of POF in the 12th I relate so much.

So I am confused. Anyone with some insight I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.




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  #2  
Unread 03-24-2018, 07:01 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Is my POF in 11th or 12th house?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeminiStarr View Post

My POF is right on the line of the 11th
and when I look at its placement under additional tables
it says it's in the 11th
BUT when I read the description/interpretation of POF in the 12th
I relate so much.

So I am confused.
Anyone with some insight I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

Your PoF is in SCORPIO and your Ascendant is Scorpio
so PoF is in FIRST WHOLE SIGN HOUSE

There are at least twenty or thirty different house systems
or means of dividing the so-called "birthchart" into twelve segments of life activity
Placidus is simply the default
and
House location of a natal planet can change,
dependent on the house system chosen

In astrology, houses, mansions, or domains
represent general areas of life activity
and are the grounding areas or arenas of expression for planets.
Originally, the words "houses" and "signs" were interchangeable.
A planet in the SIGN of Aries
was also a planet in the HOUSE of Aries
so that in effect houses as we know them today did not exist

Artificial divisions now known as houses
were attempts by early Greeks and Hindus to measure strength "points" in the horoscope
which during 7th and 8th centuries AD were construed
or confused
as means of dividing the birth chart.
The ascendant and midheaven degrees and their opposites were definite power points
or areas of intense focus
but not necessarily the beginnings of a house or quadrant
The Whole Sign House system was used by the ancient Greeks
and the Hindus (who still use it today).

It is the oldest and simplest house system in existence

and immediately eliminates the awful mess
astrologers have made on the issue over the last 1300 years or so

to view for yourself how that works in practice
simply create your natal chart using Whole Sign Houses option
then compare with the same natal chart using the Placidus option
Whole Sign House ascendant sign becomes the whole first house
and the other houses follow.
The ASCENDANT POINT ITSELF can then fall anywhere in the first house
and
MIDHEAVEN POINT anywhere in the upper half of the chart
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeminiStarr View Post



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  #3  
Unread 03-24-2018, 07:05 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Is my POF in 11th or 12th house?

basically

WHOLE SIGN HOUSES clearly determines TOPICS
and eliminates ambiguity of HOUSE location of PLANET or PoF

and then
any quadrant house system
such as Placidus, Alcabitius et al
assists with determining PLANETARY STRENGTH


tsmalls comment at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=94683
explains the rationale

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post

I use both whole signs and Placidus.
The original idea of quadrant based house systems was to determine angularity,
and never to replace the concept of topics.
So I count signs for topics
and use a house system overlaid onto it.

Because, as I mentioned above, capability
and angularity/ability to act
are two different things.....
tsmall uses BOTH whole signs AND Placidus

I use BOTH whole signs AND Alcabitius
some use whole sign AND Regiomontanus
there are multiple QUADRANT house systems
its a matter of personal choice which to use in tandem with WHOLE SIGN
IF one chooses to do so

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

Yes, the dominant house system in Greco-Roman astrology
(until about the time of the end of the Classical Period) was whole sign,
but (among the famous very early Arabic astrologers of the transitional period)
only Abu'Mashar continued the ancient Greco-Roman practice,
and the whole sign house format became virtually forgotten (in the West)
until the mid-1990's.

Personally I think it was an historical tragedy for our astrological art
that whole sign houses became lost to memory,
for my experience
over the past nearly 20 years of exclusively using whole sign houses
has convinced me
of the more consistent accuracy of this house system, over any other...

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #4  
Unread 03-24-2018, 08:54 PM
GeminiStarr GeminiStarr is offline
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Re: Is my POF in 11th or 12th house?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
basically

WHOLE SIGN HOUSES clearly determines TOPICS
and eliminates ambiguity of HOUSE location of PLANET or PoF

and then
any quadrant house system
such as Placidus, Alcabitius et al
assists with determining PLANETARY STRENGTH


tsmalls comment at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=94683
explains the rationale


tsmall uses BOTH whole signs AND Placidus

I use BOTH whole signs AND Alcabitius
some use whole sign AND Regiomontanus
there are multiple QUADRANT house systems
its a matter of personal choice which to use in tandem with WHOLE SIGN
IF one chooses to do so


Thank you for the wealth of information you have just provided. I always thought that whole signs were only for when I do Vedic. I always thought Vedic to be more accurate for me but maybe its because I was viewing western chart under the wrong house system.

It makes complete sense that the ruler of the house would determine the sign of the whole house.

This is really interesting because when I change my chart to whole signs my entire chart has changed.

Now I have to learn my chart under Whole Signs and compare.

I am even more confused than before lol but in a good way because I have way more to learn that I was not aware of.

Thank You Again!



Last edited by GeminiStarr; 03-24-2018 at 08:57 PM.
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  #5  
Unread 03-24-2018, 09:17 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Is my POF in 11th or 12th house?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeminiStarr View Post

Thank you for the wealth of information you have just provided.
I always thought that whole signs were only for when I do Vedic.
I always thought Vedic to be more accurate for me
but maybe its because I was viewing western chart under the wrong house system.
It makes complete sense that the ruler of the house
would determine the sign of the whole house
.
Certainly WHOLESIGN eliminates the confusion of determining TOPICS
that's good news that you find the information useful
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeminiStarr View Post

This is really interesting because
when I change my chart to whole signs my entire chart has changed.

Now I have to learn my chart under Whole Signs and compare.

I am even more confused than before lol
but in a good way
because I have way more to learn that I was not aware of.

Thank You Again!
I did wonder how you would react to PoF suddenly shifting
to yet another location

and
encouraging that you have the flexibility of mind to consider alternative options
there is always some new perspective to evaluate

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeminiStarr View Post

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #6  
Unread 03-27-2018, 05:23 AM
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piercethevale piercethevale is offline
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Re: Is my POF in 11th or 12th house?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeminiStarr View Post
My POF is right on the line of the 11th and when I look at its placement under additional tables it says it's in the 11th BUT when I read the description/interpretation of POF in the 12th I relate so much.

So I am confused. Anyone with some insight I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.



I see that you used Placidus, that's great as that is the only House system to use for a natal interpretation imho...although other systems may have some application...

As the difference between your given location for the 12 House Cusp and your Po Fortune considering that it is about but 10' of a degree difference and how little a distance that is when considering conjunctions by less than a one degree orb to the Po Fortune, I would say to interpret your Po Fortune as being to both Houses but as the 12th House Cusp does give symbolically the answer as to what Your answer to the Worlds' most daunting problem is, as you perceive it to be, to have ones Po Fortune conjunct with their 12th House cusp is rather auspicious in my humble opinion...although I have never seen such a conjunction before and I could very well be misleading myself as to so believe it to be something of an auspicious nature.
It would stand to reason that the precept symbolically given by the Sabian Symbol for the degree of the Tropical Zodiac found to be that of your 12th House cusp, i.e. that of the 5th degree of Scorpio, as also being your Part of Fortune [that which if you activate by application the precept symbolized by the Sabian Symbol for the 5th degree of Scorpio it thus will provide as an outcome the most 'fortuitous circumstances' as for by which you can achieve completion of you dharma, your mission here in this incarnation, your ultimate destiny in this lifetime...] and this chart is then indicating you to be one that will likely actively pursue a career or association with, endeavors to solve the worlds' problems... or should, perhaps?
That Sabian Symbol, as described, interpreted and explained by the late great, Dane Rudhyar, in his book "An Astrological Mandala. The Cycle of Transformations and Its 360 Symbolic Phases" is given as thus:

"SCORPIO 5: A MASSIVE ROCKY SHORE RESISTS THE POUNDING OF THE SEA.

KEYNOTE:
The inertia of all institutionalized procedures.

Slow is the rise of the land from the vast ocean, but once it is formed it develops a formidable resistance to change in spite of storms. Likewise, once a culture has expressed its basic symbols and its particular way of thinking, feeling and acting in concrete institutions, these change very slowly indeed. The individual who came to the great city (Scorpio 1 symbol) soon finds his life set by the rhythms of city living, which obliterate vaster life processes and the moving tides of evolution.

This is the last of the five symbols of the forty-third sequence. We see in it how binding and resistant a communal way of life can become. In this there is strength and stability, and these are necessary factors in the social life of man until new horizons beckon. The Keyword is STABILITY. "

So it does appear to be that your answer to, what you perceive as, the greatest problem facing the world wide society of humankind is to seek and adhere to those institutions that have enduring permanence.

As it is also your Part of Fortune and it being a "First Level: Actional" Sabian Symbol, [which changes every five degrees, first from that of Actional to that of Emotional/Cultural at the 6th degree, and then at the 11th degree to that of Mental/Individual, and the process then repeats itself beginning with the 16th degree of any Sign] then this is a precept that you must literally put to action or actively participate in accordance with... that being what you too must seek out and adhere to, join in membership, support as a patron, actively participate in, etc., etc. those old, long lived, long time enduring institutions ... whether they be as that of Governmental, or by nature Fraternal, dedicated to Collective Knowledge, or that of a Creed, or Faith, etc. ...and for some examples, The D.A.R., the B.P.O.E., the I.O.O.F., the Loyal Order of Moose, the Lions Club the Freemasons, Jobs Daughters, the Girl Scouts, the Rotary Club, the Democrat Party, the Republican Party, any of the worlds major religions that have been around for at lest a few hundred years... or maybe some minor ones too as the Bahai are seemingly enduring well enough, although despite being in existence, presently, of only a little more than a hundred and fifty years time. So maybe it would be best to put it as "Those institutions that have endured for longer than at least one entire generation or maybe two"?

This is just my random take on anyone that might have the 5th degree of Scorpio as their 12th House Cusp and also as for their Part of Fortune... it would ultimately come down to the overall tenor of the entire natal chart and what can be made known about the life history, so far, of the person in question.
You may have had a bad experience with any of the aforementioned or have some sort of cultural or non-secular reason to shun or avoid any of them.
Maybe it might be simply that being an American citizen and a belief in the founding ideals and the Constitution is the answer and the only necessary action you need perform to achieve your Part of Fortunes' potential?
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  #7  
Unread 03-27-2018, 03:27 PM
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petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Is my POF in 11th or 12th house?

Basically the Old Astrologers, Nechepso and Petosiris, who first wrote of this Lot, called it the Ruling Place and examined its whole sign configurations. Signs are Houses = Places in Hellenistic astrology. Lots have no degrees. You can check a recent discussion on this matter on another forum - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9952

Or you can examine the matter for yourself - http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

''The King also said in the beginning of his <XIII> Book: “Next in order, it will be necessary to count the distance from the sun to the moon, then to measure off an equal distance in the reverse direction (some count forward) from the Ascendant, and to inspect the ruling place that has been determined: which star is its ruler and which stars are in that place. From the interpretation of these places make a clear determination of the native’s affairs.” (His calling the place “ruling” means “powerful,” and the next phrase “the whole can be seen” means that it is controlling.) In addition, in the course of his exposition he often speaks strongly in affirmation of this Lot: that if benefics are in conjunction or in aspect, they are indicative of good and givers of property; if malefics, they bring the loss of property and cause bodily wasting, crises, etc.'' - translation by Riley

The words in the brackets are Valens'.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-27-2018 at 03:33 PM.
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