Clarifying Significator Dignity and Reception

tsmall

Premium Member
So it is the same?

Because if you say that you are "worshipping" someone, or you state that you are in the "house of worship" of that someone, you are pretty much saying the same thing.

Its just semantics.

a) "I believe in God"
b) "I go to church every Sunday" (thus can be assumed to believe in God)

semantics.:andy:

No, not semantics. Your argument is making assumptions that might not be born out by the chart. In the case of Sun in Libra it could just as easily be "I, the Sun in fall and peregrine, have come to the church to burn your holy book, and you Saturn, have to let me if I am applying to you."
 

Dirius

Well-known member
No, not semantics. Your argument is making assumptions that might not be born out by the chart. In the case of Sun in Libra it could just as easily be "I, the Sun in fall and peregrine, have come to the church to burn your holy book, and you Saturn, have to let me if I am applying to you."

Yes, semantics.

In that same equation, clearly what Saturn represents is important for the Sun, thus exalting. Although the example is a bad one, if the Sun would have negative feelings for Saturn, it would probably be expressed by detriment/fall, rather than exaltation/rulership.

Saying Sun exalts Saturn is just a way of implying that the Sun finds itself in the dignity of exaltation for Saturn.

Semantics. :andy::andy:

I really don't mind, if you prefer I'll edit the post to say "Sun is recieved by Saturn by exaltation".

To me is nothing more than a way of stating it, and i prefer the simpler "Sun exalts Saturn".

When we talk about aspects we say:"Mars sextiles Venus" as a short version.

We usually don't go and state the long version:"Mars in Taurus is in applying sextile to Venus in Cancer".

Clearly unless you are talking to a complete N00b, it is not needed.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Here's the thing. The "guest" sun in Libra, on the surface, doesn't have much to offer Libra's exaltation "host" Saturn. Unless the sun brings something else to the party. Like reciprocal "hosting" of Saturn in some term.
 
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heidy26

Well-known member
Sun and Venus are in mutual reception by domicile, Saturn receives Sun by exaltation. If it is a day chart Sun receives Saturn by triplicity. That was easy.
Well, Sun is in domicile, term of Venus, but the exaltation, triplicity of Saturn, face of Moon.
As triplicity is considered a weak dignity, not to mention face/term, the strong dignities are domicile and exaltation.



I blame Frawley, who seriously ******* up reception, for this confusion. Rather than say Venus and Sun "want each other" (which is not entirely correct) it would be better to say Venus and the Sun are inclined to helping each other. Think of it this way. Reception is about allowing, not wanting. If a planet is received then its dispositor is obligated to see to its needs and allow it to carry out its significations to the best of its abilities. It's a host/guest relationship.
Yes, but the host is the one to put his/her entire services to the guest; so if this is mutual, I think of this as mutual interest.
If it is a career horary, then the sigs are very fond of each other and willing to perfect the matter; if it is a love horary, we cannot talk about helping.


No. This



First of all, if you must insist that one planet is in some way going to "exalt" another, you have it going the wrong way. Because Saturn receives the Sun, Saturn has to allow the Sun to carry out its office, in other words Saturn has to let the Sun do what it wants to do.
Yes - but after further digging and seeing sides, some side with first part [Saturn receives Sun] and others side with the other part [Sun idealizes Saturn].
Which in my opinion, both are correct. Sun surely finds Saturn so interesting and appealing [whatever subject we are talking about] and Saturn receives Sun, just that Sun does not have any means to deal with the situation he is currently facing [fall].
It's like the battle with L1 in 7h and L7 in h1.
Well, of course if L1 is in h7 he is very much into L7. You cannot say he is not interested because he is in detriment, but rather he is weakened by the power L7 has over him.


Can you please elaborate why not ?

One thing missing from this discussion is that true reception requires an aspect, otherwise all you have really is generosity. Sun is separating from Saturn, so whatever that represents is over. Venus currently at 27 Leo is moving slower than the Sun, so the Sun is applying to Venus with mutual reception. That has some promise, but Venus will still escape into Virgo before the Sun can perfect the sextile. So really it doesn't matter whom the Sun wants more.
Actually, the chart I was talking about - I hope I still have it, otherwise I'll talk from the memory I have of it -, Mercury was performing TOL between Sun and Saturn.
Merc rx separated from conjunction with the Sun and was in applying sextile with Saturn, while Venus/Mars/Jupiter were in 7th, but no aspect with the Sun.
Saturn was right on the MC.

I know Mercury was not in good shape; and combust it is seriously debiliated; it rules the 5th house and the 8th in the chart.


Career horaries seem much more easier than love ones - reception and dignities are not in a such continuous debate as love horaries are.
As you've already pictured, I am talking about a love chart.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Well, Sun is in domicile, term of Venus, but the exaltation, triplicity of Saturn, face of Moon.
As triplicity is considered a weak dignity, not to mention face/term, the strong dignities are domicile and exaltation.

heidy, quick correction, triplicity is a strong dignity. :tongue::tongue:

Major dignities are: Sign rulership, exaltation and triplicity.

Minor dignities are: term and face.

The major dignities are those that happen throughout the whole sign, minor ones only a fragment of the sign. I actually used to think triplicity was a weak one too some time ago, because many books state it that way, but its a part of the major dignities. :lol:
 

heidy26

Well-known member
It is not so that it means Venus likes the Sun (although that might also be the case if Venus is also receiving the Sun).

This is the case.
But my problem is not this reception thing in particular, I already said the same thing about it - but when Saturn is also in the mix, this is well all starts to become confusing.
Since opinions are not the same on this matter... well, you get my confusion.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
[/B][/I]Clearly unless you are talking to a complete N00b, it is not needed.

Actually, it is needed because otherwise you end up with astrologers thinking that the Sun in Libra loves Saturn. :annoyed:

While I see your point, the reality is that this notion of "exalting" something because a planet finds itself in the sign of another planet's exaltation is confused, and can lead the astrologer astray.

In that same equation, clearly what Saturn represents is important for the Sun, thus exalting. Although the example is a bad one, if the Sun would have negative feelings for Saturn, it would probably be expressed by detriment/fall, rather than exaltation/rulership.

Not quite, and this is why it is said that horary astrology deals with objective realities rather than subjective feelings. Take another example. Capricorn rising, Saturn as L1. (waybread, cover your eyes, you won't like this example). The question about a sick person, whether he should live or die. Leo is the 8th, making Sun L8. Saturn in Gemini (6th), Sun in Libra applying, no interference from another planet. L1 receives L8 and has to allow him to carry out his office.
 

heidy26

Well-known member
Depends on the context of the chart. If you are talking about a relationship question (given that it seems to be a 1st-7th):

What is Venus?

...is Venus a secondary significator for on of them representing a woman?
...is Venus another house involved in the question?
Venus is in h7, rules 3h and 4h and is intercepted in 8h, where Sun is.
Moon is co-sig of the querent.

The Sun in the sign of Venus could very well represent an interest for "love" in general (as wanting a relationship). Depends on the context of the chart, and what house does Venus rule.


Take it this way:

Sun is ruled by Venus.

Despite the fact that the Sun may also exalt Saturn, his actions are still ruled by what Venus means and wants. Specially if Venus is also in mutual reception with Sun.

Also, while all relationship questions are read in a similar way, they are not alle xactly the same. A question such as "does she like me?" is not the same as "will we breakup?"

So again, it depends on the context of the chart to make sense :lol::lol::lol:

Of course it depends on the conditions of the chart.
Venus can be another woman, or represent values/home for the quesited.
But this is not really relevant here, is it ?
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Actually, it is needed because otherwise you end up with astrologers thinking that the Sun in Libra loves Saturn. :annoyed:

While I see your point, the reality is that this notion of "exalting" something because a planet finds itself in the sign of another planet's exaltation is confused, and can lead the astrologer astray.

It may be confusing if the concept of "love/hate" is taken all the time for every other chart. While it is a simple way of explaining it, I do agree it can't be translated to each and other house subject for a chart, but thats not the original idea of it.

Not quite, and this is why it is said that horary astrology deals with objective realities rather than subjective feelings. Take another example. Capricorn rising, Saturn as L1. (waybread, cover your eyes, you won't like this example). The question about a sick person, whether he should live or die. Leo is the 8th, making Sun L8. Saturn in Gemini (6th), Sun in Libra applying, no interference from another planet. L1 receives L8 and has to allow him to carry out his office.
But this is a concept for a different type of chart, not a relationship one, which implies that the connection between both planets is about a negative thing to begin with.

If we are talking about a 1st/7th house, but a contest chart (lets say a tennis match), rather than a relationship one, then the idea that "Sun is exalting Saturn", doesn't imply the Sun is in love with the other player and wants him to win, but rather the idea that one of the significators believes the other one is a better player and thus intimidated.

This is always given by the context of the chart (my original point).

In that particular sense, saying that L1 exalts L7, implies L1 believes L7 to be a better player.(controlled by it).

In your particular example, saying L1 exalts L8, implies L1 can't escape from L8 (controlled by it). This is what your example says.

I do agree with your example.

But again, this comes from the most usual type of charts: relationship charts, not death or contest ones.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Of course it depends on the conditions of the chart.
Venus can be another woman, or represent values/home for the quesited.
But this is not really relevant here, is it ?

As I said, depends on the context of the chart :unsure:

Venus is in the detriment of Saturn by that defition. So does it imply something? depends on the situation-
 

heidy26

Well-known member
heidy, quick correction, triplicity is a strong dignity. :tongue::tongue:

Major dignities are: Sign rulership, exaltation and triplicity.

Minor dignities are: term and face.

The major dignities are those that happen throughout the whole sign, minor ones only a fragment of the sign. I actually used to think triplicity was a weak one too some time ago, because many books state it that way, but its a part of the major dignities. :lol:

According to Bonatti:
"Reception -- The full discussion of reception according to Bonatti is in the Third Tractatus. (See Part II, the section entitled "On the Donation of Virtue, or Reception.") Reception exists when any planet applies to an aspect of one of its lords according to domicile, exaltation, triplicity, bound or face, or one those lords applies to it. There is also reception when a planet applies to any second planet that has strong essential dignity in its own (i.e., the second planet's) position, or that second planet applies to the first. A reception is strong when it is by domicile or exaltation. It is weak if it is by triplicity, bound or face only. It is again strong if it is by two of these lesser dignities at the same time with the same planet as Mars would have if the degree were in a water sign and a bound of Mars. It is very strong or perfect if both planets receive each other by a major dignity and there is application. This is so whether the reception is by the same dignity (mutual) or different but strong dignities (mixed)."
 

Dirius

Well-known member
But there bonatti is talking about the strenght of the reception (the connection between both planets), not of the strength of dignity :tongue:

You said that triplicity was a weak "dignity". This is why I mentioned it is a major one. Perhaps you meant to say reception in your original post, sorry if that was the case (not my intent to correct on that) :joyful:
 
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heidy26

Well-known member
So it is the same?

Because if you say that you are "worshipping" someone, or you state that you are in the "house of worship" of that someone, you are pretty much saying the same thing.

Its just semantics.

a) "I believe in God"
b) "I go to church every Sunday" (thus can be assumed to believe in God)

semantics.:andy:

Well, this is the way I see a planet in the exaltation of another one, too.
One is that if the first planet applies to the one exalted in the sign it is - then the second planet receives it.
Two is, that if the first planet is in the second's exaltation - first planet surely has interest in it.
 

heidy26

Well-known member
But there bonatti is talking about the strenght of the reception (the connection between both planets), not of the strength of dignity :tongue:

You said that triplicity was a weak "dignity". This is why I mentioned it is a major one. :joyful:

Well, let me correct myself, I was talking about reception. Pardonnez-moi.:whistling:
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Well, this is the way I see a planet in the exaltation of another one, too.
One is that if the first planet applies to the one exalted in the sign it is - then the second planet receives it.
Two is, that if the first planet is in the second's exaltation - first planet surely has interest in it.

Right, but that interest might not be to the benefit of the exaltation ruler. Ask any serial killer.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Right, but that interest might not be to the benefit of the exaltation ruler. Ask any serial killer.

I agree, but I don't think anyone ever said that.

If the Sun exalts Saturn, doesn't mean it is beneficial for Saturn. :tongue::love:

Well, let me correct myself, I was talking about reception. Pardonnez-moi.:whistling:

No worries, I apologise too :lol::lol:

But I do not really agree with Bonatti on that. Many authors disregard triplicity a lot...not sure why :andy:
 

heidy26

Well-known member
Right, but that interest might not be to the benefit of the exaltation ruler. Ask any serial killer.

Well, let's not make it dramatic.
It clearly shows an interest, talking about values in this particular case, it might suggest that Sun sees Saturn as a value for him.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
But I do not really agree with Bonatti on that. Many authors disregard triplicity a lot...not sure why :andy:

Because usually the triplicity ruler alone doesn't have enough authority over the matter to allow the applying planet to carry out its office. In the case of horary this is important. It's like...trying to close a deal with someone who isn't the decision maker. Triplicity rulers are used more in nativities, and have different responsibilites.
 

heidy26

Well-known member
No worries, I apologise too :lol::lol:

But I do not really agree with Bonatti on that. Many authors disregard triplicity a lot...not sure why :andy:

No need to apologize, it was entirely mine. :lol:
I know that many authors disregard triplicity.
This is why I find it hard to abide to one opinion, since opinions on receptions are so different.

I recently saw some topics on other forums about this particular case - a sig in the exaltation of the other sig - opinions were similar:
sig A in sig's B exaltation - sig A is so interested in sig B to the point of idealizing it - which in the real life situation it was true, btw.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Because usually the triplicity ruler alone doesn't have enough authority over the matter to allow the applying planet to carry out its office. In the case of horary this is important. It's like...trying to close a deal with someone who isn't the decision maker. Triplicity rulers are used more in nativities, and have different responsibilites.

Yes this seems to be the predominant view, but to be honest I have seen triplicity in many charts to also bring the matter to conclusion in a positive way.

Granted, it is sometimes hard because of the mixture of the minor dignities into the mix (like a planet in face along with triplicity), which makes it rather complicated to get an accurate view.

But my reasoning is rather that triplicity is in many ocasions ignored, while it is a strong testimony in most cases.
 
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