I don't act like my sun

Birch Dragon said:

On those lines, I think you still want to approach your Sun as a Gemini Sun even though it is in the 8th house. Not to quibble with Osamenor’s excellent and helpful posts, but I want to disagree just slightly with the way s/he worded one point – though in the end I’m sure we actually agree on it. I wouldn’t say you’re Sun takes on a blending of the signs of Gemini and Scorpio, 50/50. I’d say your Sun has the quality of Gemini but is particularly focused on, or expresses itself around, Scorpio-like things. It tends towards Scorpio-like things, but still does so like a Gemini.

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I agree with you, Birch Dragon. I don't really agree with modern astrology's way of conflating houses with their rulers, though there are obviously similarities. The houses, in my view, are more like the areas of life where our planets express themselves.

Like, I have a 5th house Sun but I don't consider myself to be "half-Leo", though I may be "Leo-like" in the sense that I am dramatic and expressive. Still, an 8th house or a 12th house Gemini will probably be more quiet, introverted and watery than, like, a 5th house or 3rd house Gemini would be, and it makes sense why the OP would identify with Scorpio-traits.

Gemini and Scorpio are very different signs, almost completely opposite in personality, but the one thing that ties them together is their curiosity (also, their mischievousness, but OP says she's not mischievous). One possible interpretation of this, is that her Gemini curiosity and love of learning might best be expressed around themes of sex/intimacy, psychology or the occult (I've read somewhere that Uranus rules astrology but I honestly feel like it's more of a Plutonian subject).

craft94 said:

I agree with you, Birch Dragon. I don't really agree with modern astrology's way of conflating houses with their rulers, though there are obviously similarities.
The houses, in my view, are more like the areas of life where our planets express themselves.

Like, I have a 5th house Sun but I don't consider myself to be "half-Leo", though I may be "Leo-like" in the sense that I am dramatic and expressive.
Still, an 8th house or a 12th house Gemini will probably be more quiet, introverted and watery than, like, a 5th house or 3rd house Gemini would be, and it makes sense why the OP would identify with Scorpio-traits.

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Exactly
and so

Regarding understanding your natal Sun

if you keep in mind that:

A PLANET acts.

A HOUSE shows the area of life in which the planet acts

as well as
how strongly the planet can act.

and

A SIGN shows the quality of the planet's expression.

then
if you start working from that idea
you can build on it

i.e.
- which planet
where is it
how comfortable is it in that sign
what does it rule in the chart?

An understanding of planetary dignity and debility
is useful for assessing how comfortable a particular planet is when in a particular sign

HOW TO READ DIGNITIES WITH TABLE http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html

Osamenor said:

Sidereal charts work if you're using a sidereal astrology system, such as Vedic or Chinese. But if you're doing that, you would need to be using the entire system, which is different from Western astrology.

In Western astrology, the signs are not the same thing as the constellations they're named after. Almost, but not quite. A few millennia ago, when the signs were named, the sun was actually in the constellation Taurus from late April to late May, in Gemini from late May to late June, etc.

Then, thanks to the wobble in earth's rotation, the backdrop of constellations moved, from our perspective, and the sun doesn't necessarily appear against the constellation Gemini anymore when we say it's in Gemini, etc. But it is still in Gemini, because the name Gemini in Western astrology doesn't mean the constellation. It means the 30 degree section of sky that the ancient astronomers called Gemini. The name of that section of sky doesn't change no matter which constellation we see in it.

So by Western astrology, your sun is definitely in Gemini. Vedic astrology might place it in Taurus, because Vedic astrology goes by where the constellations actually are. If you want to do a Vedic birth chart, too, and get it read on the Vedic board, it might be an interesting compare and contrast. But one system doesn't cancel out the other.

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I don't quite follow that logic.

muchacho said:

I don't quite follow that logic.

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What part of that logic don't you follow?

Western astrology is not a sidereal system. The sidereal astrology systems that exist--for instance, Vedic--are so different from Western astrology that using a sidereal chart and interpreting it according to the rules of Western astrology is like trying to construct sentences in English using a foreign language's grammatical rules.

You appeals this? Has sense in Spanish.

Or we German grammar could use. We odd sentences would get.

Just as grammatical rules work in the language they were designed for but sound strange in a different language, sidereal charts work when they're interpreted and used within a sidereal system. Tacking a sidereal chart onto Western astrology takes it out of context, and it no longer fits.

Have you ever noticed that the only people in this forum who make Western sidereal charts are fairly new amateurs? The professional and semi-pro astrologers on here never do that. There's good reason why they don't: they know the rules of Western astrology, and one of the most basic ones is that signs and constellations are not the same thing. Meanwhile, the Vedic astrologers use sidereal charts, but that's because their system is designed for that, and the charts are very different from Western ones.

Vedic/jyotish/sidereal does not go by where the constellations are. That's a common misconception in the west. In those systems, signs are still 30 degrees. The difference is that they use different sidereal vernal points, or ayanamsas. Lahiri is one of the most common ones, but most of them are pretty close together. Usually a sidereal chart will put your planets about 23 degrees earlier, there's a little variation between ayanamsas, but the signs are still 30 degrees each.

There are western siderealists, as well as the followers of Cyril Fagan, though the latter capitalise Siderealist.

It's a workable system if that's what you want to use.

Oddity said:

Vedic/jyotish/sidereal does not go by where the constellations are. That's a common misconception in the west. In those systems, signs are still 30 degrees. The difference is that they use different sidereal vernal points, or ayanamsas. Lahiri is one of the most common ones, but most of them are pretty close together. Usually a sidereal chart will put your planets about 23 degrees earlier, there's a little variation between ayanamsas, but the signs are still 30 degrees each.

There are western siderealists, as well as the followers of Cyril Fagan, though the latter capitalise Siderealist.

It's a workable system if that's what you want to use.

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Thanks... I stand corrected!

However, what I saw going on here was someone trying to use a sidereal chart without adapting any of the other rules of Western astrology. I would imagine the Western Siderealists make a few more alterations than just placing the signs with their namesake constellations?

If someone is, say, a Libra in tropical astrology but a Virgo in sidereal, that seems to greatly change the basic meaning of their sun sign. Seems to me that the only way both systems could work is for there to be quite a bit of difference in how the meaning of sign placement is interpreted.

This is actually a fairly tricky question. Back when the ancients were writing, there wasn't much difference between a sidereal chart and a tropical one....and debates have sometimes raged over who used what, but in the end, I don't think it matters. Eventually in the west we nailed the signs to seasons, hence, tropical. Before it got nailed, the systems were fairly interchangeable - this was a couple thousand years ago.

Meanwhile, the Indians were developing forms of lunar astrology (the mansions, especially), and eventually cross-pollinated with the Hellenists and got horoscopic, and then the Persians - and if you read the Persians, they're both doing what they do, and sythesising from the best of the other traditions.

The Indians pretty much still use sidereal, and yes, they have some differences of interpretation to some of the more standard western systems. But you'll find yogas that are shared between east and west, too. Not everything is the same, and in India you'll find some different meanings for the houses.

Here's the kicker: Sun-sign astrology wasn't invented until a little over 100 years ago, so in that sense it doesn't bear a lot of relation historically to east or west, it's its own creature.

There was a smallish movement for Western Siderealism, spearheaded by Cyril Fagan. It didn't take off much, but you will see people in the west using sidereal systems. And Fagan wrote some interesting things.

Trying to meander back to the topic here... I honestly don't believe there is a set way you should feel or act because of your sun-sign.

Wow, I think I touched on a sore topic. Def started such great discussion! For those that commented on my lack of fire, yes I have always found that interesting. I guess I'm just not designed to be very bold or impulsive. You are also slightly creeping me out with your talk of an interest in psychology Asa that is what my degree is in. I think I sometimes forget how much people can know about you from reading your chart

Craft94, I agree with everything you wrote. Including the point about astrology being Plutonian!

Mggirl,
If I was a working astrologer, with your North Node in Scorpio conjunction Pluto, I'd urge you to dive into studying that aspect of your chart. As it's in the second house, I'd look into the whole Taurus-Scorpio axis.
Lots of Node interpretations out there conflate the signs and houses ("If you have North Node in Aquarius or the 11th House..." That won't work for you. As craft94 and JA have said, it's important to read planets, signs and houses as three separate things relating and informing each other in their own particular ways. North Node. Scorpio. 2nd House.

The themes of the Sun in the 8th house will tie in directly to your very Plutonic North Node.
One astrologer you might want to check out online is Carmen Turner-Schott. She seems to focus on the Sun and moon in the 8th and 12th houses, particularly the 8th. Maybe what she has to say will interest you..???

Osamenor said:

Thanks... I stand corrected!

However, what I saw going on here was someone trying to use a sidereal chart without adapting any of the other rules of Western astrology. I would imagine the Western Siderealists make a few more alterations than just placing the signs with their namesake constellations?

If someone is, say, a Libra in tropical astrology but a Virgo in sidereal, that seems to greatly change the basic meaning of their sun sign. Seems to me that the only way both systems could work is for there to be quite a bit of difference in how the meaning of sign placement is interpreted.

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Their interpretations of the signs are exactly the same. So if one system says you are a Virgo and the other says you are a Libra, can they both be right? I say no.

muchacho said:

Their interpretations of the signs are exactly the same.

So if one system says you are a Virgo and the other says you are a Libra, can they both be right?

I say no.

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Their interpretations of the signs ARE NOT "exactly the same"
because

Aristotle's important contribution to Greek Medicine was the doctrine of Four Basic Qualities : Hot/Cold/Wet/Dry.
Later philosopher-physicians applied these qualities to characterize Four Elements/Four Humors/Four Temperaments.
The Four Basic Qualities are foundations for all notions of balance/homeostasis in Greek Medicine http://www.greekmedicine.net/whos_who/Aristotle.html


Aristotle's four basic qualities are: Hot/Cold/Wet/Dry,
and it’s these that can help to explain the foundation of the sidereal trigons.

QUOTE

'.....Later philosopher-physicians linked the four elements to the humors and temperaments and tropical astrology has incorporated these into its sign trigons
These don't transfer to the sidereal zodiac
just as the four qualities can't be transferred to the tropical zodiac.
tropical elements don't follow Aristotle's pattern where Fire is opposite Water and Air is opposite Earth.....' Therese Hamilton


'....In the sidereal zodiac the four qualities are in correct opposition to each other.
(Hot-Cold and Wet-Dry)
Aristotle's elements are made up of combinations of the four qualities,
so
these have very different meanings than the basic qualities themselves....' Therese Hamilton




http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

I am a Libra sun, but the dominant signs in my chart are Scorpio (Ascendant, Moon, Venus and Pluto) and Capricorn (Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune).

With the exception that I care of my appearance and dress stylish typically of Libras, in personality, I am not much like my Sun sign. I act definitely more Scorpio and to a lesser extent Capricorn and often tend to get along better with water or earth sun sign people than fire or air signs.

Cheers

back to the OP's question

All,

Please get BACK to the OP's question. The LONG discussion on Sidereal astrology went WAY outside the OP's question so I moved it here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87406

If you have something DIRECTLY RELEVANT to the OP's chart and question, please post. If you want to discuss sidereal astrology or something else, start another thread.

Back on topic,

Tim