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  #26  
Unread 05-20-2013, 12:59 PM
demetraceres demetraceres is offline
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

I would just like to ask here - considering this aspect is a part of a little child's chart - would you analyze this chart or do you have second thoughts about viewing charts of small children?

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  #27  
Unread 05-21-2013, 02:12 AM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

I will keep commenting that Pluto is not a planet and that you have to look elsewhere for the conflicts etc.
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  #28  
Unread 05-21-2013, 02:38 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

Why is Pluto not a planet?

Pluto has been a planet for nearly 80 years, employed as such by 3 generations of astrologers. Pluto has been demonstrated to be a powerful and effective symbol.

...And...Personally, I think discussing the charts of small children with the parents is a very constructive thing to do.
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  #29  
Unread 05-21-2013, 02:59 AM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

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I will keep commenting that Pluto is not a planet and that you have to look elsewhere for the conflicts etc.
Astronomers demoted Pluto to dwarf planet status in 2006, but it seems very robust in modern western astrology. After studying astrology for about 22 years, I think it has huge interpretive value.
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  #30  
Unread 05-21-2013, 08:12 AM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

Quote:
"We were living happily with my little girl, I knew her perfectly. She was my little girl through and through. Then there came this punk with his tattoos and piercings and got into her head and forced himself on her, and she became like a different person, this is not my little girl anymore! She developed a different taste in everything, she says she's found herself, but i know he must have done something to her, she must be under a spell, she will wake up one day and realize that she is in hell and come back to me. As for now, I only get to see her for christmas, easter, thanksgiving and the like... it breaks my heart!"
..... Right so!

Sunny, with Moon square Pluton

And about these interpretations about Demeter-Kore-Pluton, I'd say since Freud took the mythologie for the foundation of his theory, it becomes a fashion to interprete grec's mythology in a psychological way. But studiers of Ancient Grec ask if this will be legitimate and the answer for them is: No.
Incest, even at that time, has always been a crime - see Oedipus tyrannos.
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  #31  
Unread 05-21-2013, 08:39 AM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

Oh! I see, she (my mother) troubled me , my Moon has a sextile (60°) to Pluton, not a square. For me, as Pluton is the second ruler of Scorpion, it makes people more fusional as they are already. Therefore we have perhaps theese difficulties to become separated from our mother?
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  #32  
Unread 10-11-2013, 03:26 AM
DragnicDaelin DragnicDaelin is offline
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

I have Moon (Taurus, 8th house) opposite Pluto (Scorpio, 2nd house) and can say now, in retrospect that my grandmother (who raised me) could be perceived as devouring in the sense of 'too much caring and protection'.

Neither of my parents were in a position to raise me, so the responsibility fell on my grandparents (father's) to do so.
I also have Sun conjunct Uranus straddling the IC in Sag. My liberal, forward thinking rebellious mind was pushed down and subjugated to the will of my gran. I was raised a generation back, being raised with the concepts and traditions of my uncles and aunts, not like my peers or cousins my own age.. Due to this, today my Uranus has completely overloaded and I strive to break conformity in every possible sense of the word.

Interesting, someone else mentioned that it is the transference of fear. Having Pluto in my 2nd house - my gran is always obsessed with my financial security and well being (She's Taurus Sun, an accountant her entire life). Consequently I took this on and my relationship with money has been an immense hurtling block for me.
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  #33  
Unread 10-17-2013, 08:03 PM
sheerbliss sheerbliss is offline
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

wow can identify with this i have the moon in gemini square pluto in virgo along with moon square uranus and chiron

i grew up never hearing my mum saying she love me or my brothers or sisters infact she used to say we were a burden and that she would be better off with out us she was cold and controlling boy ...did i get some licks as a child... today they would call it child abuse
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  #34  
Unread 11-07-2013, 02:21 PM
yisca yisca is offline
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there are mothers wou hate their children , indead!

There are mothers who hate their children indeed!
I have a Moon -Pluto square, a Moon –Uranus square, a Moon-Venus square, and a Moon-Saturn trine (thanks God!)
Imagine the rest…
But, because I also have a Moon-Neptune baneful contact: no matter how disrespectful, abusive, and violent my mother was since she gave birth to me...Just until the age of 43, I could realize that she never ever loved me. I always thought she must have some sort of love for me under all that fury. Nope… she doesn’t. To realize that was painful, but liberating!
Now, I am trying to be a “nice mother” to my children... I Love them.
Don’t be afraid… I also have a Sun- Venus-ascendant- north node conjunction in Pisces, with Jupiter in Scorpio in the 8 house…
There is hope!
I believed in Love,
even in the darkest places I sow the light of Life!
and every thing happens for a reason... a good one!
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  #35  
Unread 11-11-2013, 12:02 PM
SunW SunW is offline
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

I want to ask everyone for more information. We know about the relationship between a child and a mother when there is such an aspect in the horoscope. But now, tell me about the relationship between your mother and her mother. And then, what was the relationship between your grandmother (the mother of your mother) and her mother. I want to trace the problem back in the generations.
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  #36  
Unread 11-11-2013, 04:44 PM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

I don't know how many people would have this information much past their mother/grandmother, unless they had relatively short times between generations and long-lived great-grandmothers and great-great grandmothers.

If you have genealogical information you can cast their charts (usually minus the birth times) and see what you can infer from these charts alone. Rarely if an ancestor was prominent in some way, you can find them in local histories, old newspapers, and the like.
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  #37  
Unread 11-23-2013, 07:23 AM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

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Originally Posted by gonephyschen View Post
My background: I have a Sag fifth house and my moon is there. I'm the playful, silly mom, who volunteers for everything related to my children, teaching art, scout leader, youth group leader, academic competitions, etc. I'm not the controlling, manipulating mom (like I had). I'm quick to volunteer, but that's the Sag 5th, I enjoy kids and teens, and it's the attitude "if not me, who?"

My situation: I have four daughters, one has a Pluto/moon trine and our synastry includes a Pluto (her)/moon (me) sextile and in the composite, a quintile. She's my mini-me. We look alike, we act alike, we like the same things. Next daughter, no moon/Pluto connections natally or synastry and in composite, it's a Pluto/moon semi-sextile. The youngest two daughters and I have moon (mine) conjunct Pluto (theirs) in synastry. One of them has no natal moon/Pluto connections (youngest) and in composite, we have a Pluto/moon sextile. However, the third has Pluto/moon square natally. And when I saw it, I understood. Her younger sister was born when she was still just a toddler herself. She was pushed from her babyhood early and I could see it affect her. She needed attention I couldn't always give, she needed to be carried when I had an infant in my arms. There just wasn't enough of me to around and for years, it felt like she wasn't getting nearly enough of my undivided attention. She also has had eating issues, even as a young child an emotionally tough time, like when we moved, would see her wolfing food down. Then as we settled in, her eating would return to normal. None of the other girls had this, I do and was anorexic as a teen--but I have the same square. Interestingly, our composite has the same Pluto/moon square, which really makes me wonder. She is the most sensitive, and most easily wounded of the four. But she's the kindest, too.
So, you and the third daughter have a Moon Pluto square and she has an eating problem just like you had when you were a teenager, right? Does she copy your destiny in anything else except this? Did you also miss enough mother's care when you were little?

You have a square between Pluto and the Moon in your natal chart. Tell me about your relationship with your mother. Tell me also about your mother's relationship with her mother.
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  #38  
Unread 11-25-2013, 12:51 PM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

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Originally Posted by gonephyschen View Post

In their natal charts, my grandmother's Pluto is sextile her moon.

My mother's moon does not aspect Pluto.

If I am able to get the birth information for my great grandmother, I will report back. It's my understanding though that she was very kind, loving and supportive of my grandmother.

Your mother doesn't have a Moon-Pluto aspect but does she have a Moon in Scorpio or in the 8th house? Where is her Moon?

What aspects does she have to other planets?
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  #39  
Unread 11-27-2013, 01:46 PM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

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Originally Posted by gonephyschen View Post
No 8th house moon. BUT, her moon is tightly conjunct her descendant in the 7th in Pisces. I think this aspect is a huge part of her identity. She desperately needs to be needed and tries very hard to be loved. She has to be in a relationship all the time, hopping from one to another (4 marriages and innumerable extramarital affairs). She completely immerses herself into those she loves so that there really isn't anything of her outside of them.

Her sun (H2), Venus (H3) and Merc (H3) are in Scorpio. Sun is at 0 deg, 2 min.

When I get a chance, I'll type up her aspects. I've had house guests all week, so no time for astrology. :-(

So, at first, your mother was dependant on her own mother. Then she was dependant on her boyfriends and hunbands and on you?

Can you tell me anything about your mother's early childhood? Did she miss her mother when she was a child? Was she separated from her mother?
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  #40  
Unread 09-04-2014, 05:22 PM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

Hi, sorry to bump an old thread but I wanted to add to it.


I have Pisces moon conjunct Chiron, opposed to my 3rd house Pluto with a 0 degree orb, and I am a cancer ascendant so it is my tightest chart aspect.
My Scorpio Neptune at the end of house four and conjunct Lillith is the apex of my T square.


My mother had electric shock treatments in the 1950's in an effort to alleviate her headaches. Her father abandoned the family before she was ever born. At 17, she worked full time and handed her paycheck completely over to her mother. Her mother was a classic "rageaholic", an angry control freak.


My mother had a form of Muchausen by Proxy syndrome, she herself was severely addicted to dangerous prescription narcotics and she was always taking me to the doctor, insisting I was ill. When I was old enough to understand that I was not sick at all, I really put up a fight insisting I was okay. Doctors will diagnose you with anything if they are forced to out of chronic inquiry.


Some of the most painful memories are of when my mom would take me somewhere after my own dad abandoned us, and she would promptly fall completely unconscious. An ambulance would be called and she would end up being released home after the effects would eventually wear off. It was terrifying, one minute she would be fine, and the next she would be in the "soma coma". I was helpless to predict or know when or where she would end up, completely unconscious and helpless to do anything about it.


When I was in 6th grade, she moved into a sober living house and I remember off and on around middle school being left alone sometimes overnight and having to do things like shop for my own groceries with money she would leave me for food. It was surreal, back in the 1970's that I was allowed to live like that. I got used to living alone and shunning people as I came to realize predatory natures and clung to my cancer ascendant habit of staying home and hiding. I failed school and I just never had much guidance as she ultimately had to go to work full time and my only sibling had become a heroin addict and was consistently in prison. When my mom was home, she often dragged me along to visit my elderly grandmother and great aunt, and then to the state mental hospital where my sibling stayed for her own drug treatment. I was bored out of my mind and eventually I would stray from the house in a misguided attempt to socialize and visit the neighborhood where I first grew up before my dad left.


I ended up having a child on my own in my early 30's and wanted desperately to give him all the nurturing I never had. I made a lot of mistakes but I also did a great job and he is very successful and happy. However, his natal chart has squares and oppositions all over his moon, and I know that moon is me and how guilty I feel for all the chaos in his young life. I took my angst and fear out on him so many times, and I go from being his doormat and atm to lashing out and overreacting from my frustration if I am pushed to my breaking point. It's astounding how accurate astrology can be if you study it long enough.
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  #41  
Unread 09-04-2014, 07:55 PM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

Calvinsmom, thanks for sharing your painful story with us. I hope that somewhere along the way you were able to find a helpful psychologist! You seem like a very strong person. How super that your son is there for you!

Have you looked at your mother's and maternal grandmother's horoscopes? If you don't know their birth times, just post it as "unknown." The moon could move a bit back or forth (the chart will have no houses but a default noon birth time.) but it may help you to see the demons with which your mother struggled.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #42  
Unread 09-15-2014, 05:15 AM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunW View Post
I want to ask all the people who have any major aspect between Pluto and the Moon even if it is a "positive" aspect. In her book "Aspects in Astrology" Sue Tompkins says that those who have such an aspect are often obsessed by their mother (and sometimes by the thought of being a mother) and the mother will also be obsessed by her child. Typically the mother is too protective, controlling and is can't let her children leave home. The love of the mother who have with such an aspect might be devouring and manipulative but often this is hidden. But sometimes the devouring mother might really turn into an evil witch or a vampire, a mother that drains the life out of her child. The mother that is too "caring" by constantly invading the personal space of her child and not letting him/her have any secrets and a place where the child can stay alone.
Sometimes the figure of the parent is the grandfather or the grandmother. Often there is a strong matriarchal lineage.

What do you think about that? I have a sextile between Pluto and the Moon and I have realized the truth very late. And one of my grandmothers is a Scorpio and she is a very manipulative person. I have noticed that in my family - the lineage that comes from the mother and the lineage that comes from the father (I have a Sun in the 8th house), there is a story that deals with something like a curse of a bad wish that has been said by the mother to her child at the moment when the child wants to leave her in order to live in another city. For instance, my grandmother says such a thing to my father when he leaves for another town leaving his mother and the chance to meet her very often.

In the family of my mother, the mother of my grandmother also says a bad thing to her, disappointed that her daughter is going to leave her in order to live in a city far away from her home.

How about those of you who have an aspect between Pluto and the Moon?
WOW so accurate.

I have pluto opposite moon (exactly conjunct my IC) so I can relate. It is a very intense relationship I have with my mother. I think her intentions were always good, however she almost wanted to shield me from the world- to an extreme. Well fast forward 25 years and I feel unable to cope with life. I think any contact between the moon and pluto represents an intense relationship with the mother…with the opposition I think it goes back and forth between good and bad. I think there is also a lot of scorpio energy. The mother represents scorpio and even though she has good intentions, the energy can be too much sometimes.

My mother never had a close relationship with her mother so I think she overcompensates. It's almost as I feel that baggage from their relationship.
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  #43  
Unread 09-15-2014, 11:31 PM
Kali Kali is offline
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Originally Posted by astrology02 View Post
My mother never had a close relationship with her mother so I think she overcompensates. It's almost as I feel that baggage from their relationship.
Have you ever looked at their synastry? In my own family, I see a lot of "inherited" aspects.
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  #44  
Unread 09-16-2014, 06:18 AM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

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Originally Posted by Kali View Post
Have you ever looked at their synastry? In my own family, I see a lot of "inherited" aspects.
My mom is the type of person who never shows her darker emotions. She is a very happy and outgoing person, but in 25 years I have only seen her cry maybe 3 times. She will say "everything is all good", except I almost have a sixth sense where I can read her emotions. Only with her- my other family members I can't. Her mother (my grandmother) suffered from depression and spent all her time in the house. My grandmother was present physically in my mother's life, but checked out emotionally. My mother always says "that is my purpose- i am here to help others". But I think there is a very deep, very hidden resentment that no one has taken care of her.

For example when my mom was 4 years old- it was her first day of school and my grandma just sent her off to walk by herself to the school which was far away. My mom had to essentially mother my grandmother because she suffered from depression. I think we attract circumstances into our life that are a reflection of our thoughts. So my mom on a subconscious level has always said "I am always there for everyone else, no one is there for me".

Then when she became a mom she carried that resentment. I think she tried to do everything in her power to not be a mother like my grandmother. I think she overcompensated in a lot of ways because she didn't want me to feel the way she did as a child. But at the same time I think she resented having to take of me because she felt "why didn't I receive this love & care as a child".

I think I inherit depression from my grandmother, I was so depressed I had to go to the hospital. And I think my mother relived the exact scenario she went through with my grandma, but just with me this time. I don't think our relationship got a fair chance- I think my mom had a lot of emotional baggage from my grandma that influenced the way she parented. A lot of carried over resentment (she would never say this to me, but I can feel it on an intuitive level).

Last edited by astrology02; 09-16-2014 at 06:23 AM.
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  #45  
Unread 09-16-2014, 06:29 AM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

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Have you ever looked at their synastry? In my own family, I see a lot of "inherited" aspects.
Wow my mom's moon conjuncts my grandma's pluto
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  #46  
Unread 10-13-2014, 08:38 PM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

My mother's Pluto is conjunct my brother's ASC and Saturn (he has Saturn in 12th conj ASC in Leo). He has Pluto/Sun conjunction in Libra conjunct her Neptune. My mother has Sun/Jupiter conjunction in Sagittarius (conjunct his Neptune).

My brother has Moon opposed Sun/Pluto, where Sun is the head of a kite formation with Saturn and Jupiter as the wings of the kite.

When my brother was 11 or so, my mother sent him to be raised by his father, because she felt he needed his father to be the best he could be. She left his father when their son was two years old, though he is a good man and loved her very much. She was pretty wayward back then and never stayed in a relationship longer than 3 years (has been married 5 times). She says she regrets not staying with his father of all her husbands.

My brother has been really successful and secure in life and is very close with his dad, but doesn't see our mom very often. She still feels she made the best decision even though separating from him hurt her a lot, and he definitely didn't grow up a wreck like my sister and I. It's hard to imagine what he'd be like if she did keep him with her. Everything he can do now is due to his dad. He learned carpentry, farming, mining all from his dad and they run successful businesses together. He's traveled to Australia and Africa multiple times and has a beautiful son and wife. Of all of her children, he is the most stable and happy. He also has the strongest natal Pluto contacts of all of us. Our mother is like the opposite (Moon opposition?) of the devouring mother for him; she was the mother that let him go so he could live a full life. Curious what the Pluto/ASC conjunction means, however, especially with Saturn.

Last edited by Flapjacks; 10-13-2014 at 08:46 PM.
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  #47  
Unread 10-13-2014, 09:24 PM
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

Also, since the question was asked about grandparents:

I don't have information about my grandmother. However I do have my grandfather, and in my chart I have Sun square Pluto. So it might be a useful look none-the-less. I have really strong Pluto contacts with granddad on father's side.

Both of us have Sun/Moon oppositions in water/earth signs. His Moon is in Scorpio, conjunct my Pluto and opposed to his Sun/Uranus in Taurus. His Pluto is conjunct my Cancer Sun and Leo Mercury, opposing his Mars in Capricorn, conjunct my Moon in Capricorn. We both have Mars in Capricorn.

His Mars/Pluto opposition is in t-square with Saturn in Aries, conjunct my NN (my nodal axis squares my Sun/Mercury and Moon opposition).

His NN is conjunct his Moon, opposed his Sun. So my Pluto is conjunct his NN as well.

We are uncomfortable around one another to say the least. I've been scared of him since I was a little girl. He is one of the few people I've ever felt threatened by; like the only person in the world that could break me with his pinkie finger, who I am terrified of disappointing, who I worry doesn't give a **** about me, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he wonders if I give a **** about him. If I were to ever live with him or be under his care as a youth, I'm absolutely sure it would not have gone well. He is so controlling and I am unwilling to be controlled. We'd probably destroy each other.

Last edited by Flapjacks; 10-13-2014 at 09:28 PM.
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  #48  
Unread 02-07-2015, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunW View Post
I want to ask all the people who have any major aspect between Pluto and the Moon even if it is a "positive" aspect. In her book "Aspects in Astrology" Sue Tompkins says that those who have such an aspect are often obsessed by their mother (and sometimes by the thought of being a mother) and the mother will also be obsessed by her child. Typically the mother is too protective, controlling and is can't let her children leave home. The love of the mother who have with such an aspect might be devouring and manipulative but often this is hidden. But sometimes the devouring mother might really turn into an evil witch or a vampire, a mother that drains the life out of her child. The mother that is too "caring" by constantly invading the personal space of her child and not letting him/her have any secrets and a place where the child can stay alone.
Sometimes the figure of the parent is the grandfather or the grandmother. Often there is a strong matriarchal lineage.

What do you think about that? I have a sextile between Pluto and the Moon and I have realized the truth very late. And one of my grandmothers is a Scorpio and she is a very manipulative person. I have noticed that in my family - the lineage that comes from the mother and the lineage that comes from the father (I have a Sun in the 8th house), there is a story that deals with something like a curse of a bad wish that has been said by the mother to her child at the moment when the child wants to leave her in order to live in another city. For instance, my grandmother says such a thing to my father when he leaves for another town leaving his mother and the chance to meet her very often.

In the family of my mother, the mother of my grandmother also says a bad thing to her, disappointed that her daughter is going to leave her in order to live in a city far away from her home.

How about those of you who have an aspect between Pluto and the Moon?
I am not at all obsessed with becoming a mother nor am I obsessed by my mother but , growing up, my siblings thought I was favored by our mother.

I left home at 18 years old and never went back ( except for holiday).I live far away from my mother in a different city, which she initially did not like.
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  #49  
Unread 03-17-2016, 12:42 AM
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Smile Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Astronomers demoted Pluto to dwarf planet status in 2006, but it seems very robust in modern western astrology. After studying astrology for about 22 years, I think it has huge interpretive value.
It just wasn't enough to hit the Thanks button; maybe this is something I like to hear, but you always have tremendous insight when you post and I don't think you get enough credit Waybread!

People shared much more than they had to for the good of others here. That's always appreciated because it can be intimidating to write about certain things online even when seeking clarity.
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Last edited by Dubyadude1986; 03-17-2016 at 12:44 AM.
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Dubyadude1986 Dubyadude1986 is offline
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Re: Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunW View Post
I want to ask everyone for more information. We know about the relationship between a child and a mother when there is such an aspect in the horoscope. But now, tell me about the relationship between your mother and her mother. And then, what was the relationship between your grandmother (the mother of your mother) and her mother. I want to trace the problem back in the generations.
I have Moon/Pluto/Mars/SN 8th H Scorp and the maternal father on that side has been missing for at least three generations. My grandmother's father died when she was two, my mother's father drove her and my uncle off a bridge when they were young (they survived), and my father was a significant threat while I was growing up. He left the household when I was 11 when he attempted suicide.

As a result of this continued male absence, not much is known beyond my maternal grandmother's father.

This trend manifested with masculine figures instead of feminine figures or energy.


On the paternal side, uncle has the NN in the same house in the same degree (H2 6th degree). They all seem to share a Pisces NN, but in different houses (mine is Taurus).

I do know they are picking these partners and it is less of a blood-line thing.

I don't know if it was those aspects, I hope this helps..
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If Steve Cohen can have his LSG, why can't I have mine. lmao.

(I said this over some KFC talking to a friend of mine during something super important..) - Publius

Last edited by Dubyadude1986; 03-17-2016 at 12:57 AM.
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