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  #1  
Unread 11-24-2020, 12:59 PM
PlutorisingLee PlutorisingLee is offline
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Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

Alternative title: Venus&Moon in a male chart.

I am interested in understanding the Moon and Venus archetypes in a male chart.
It is generally considered that a difficult relationship between a Venus and Moon in a male chart would indicate a hardship with integrating lover/wife into one woman.

Issues with loosing attraction to a lover once she becomes a wife or vice versa. Struggles with reaching a long term relationship.

Struggle with the mother in law or their own mother not liking their partner.

I have studied a few charts over the years of people I know and over time and it seems to hold some water.

Some examples:

Moon conjuct Venus
Usually artistic, wonderful nurturing parents and tend to be very at ease with showing "feminine' qualities in their relationships. They have no problem turning a lover into a wife. They see her as one.

Opposing Venus-Moon
May have trouble balancing different types of women they are attracted to and going from one extreme to the other. They may date Venus until age 30 and switch to Moon when they decide to marry.

Squaring venus-Moon
The hardest hardest stories. They are also very creative like the conjunction but struggle with reaching their ideal relationship.

Any real life examples and thoughts?

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  #2  
Unread 11-26-2020, 04:39 AM
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Cary2 Cary2 is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

Of all the hard aspects that one might find between two planets, those between Venus and Moon are probably the easiest. The remainder of the chart is of utmost importance in interpretation, but otherwise, Moon/Venus folks tend to be sentimental and devoted. Most of the time the greatest trouble I find with Moon/Venus in hard aspect is a tendency to be emotionally needy; in men there is sometimes a slight effeminacy. In women, there may be a disconcerting too-sweet affectation.

The "Madonna-whore complex" is not in any of the diagnostic manuals. It's a new term to me. If it exists, it seems unlikely to me that Moon/Venus is its indicator.

In a male chart, the likeliest sign of trouble with women is usually Moon/Pluto. In the case of infidelity, hard aspects between Venus and Mars are more likely, but some three-way combinations are even more likely to be in evidence. I acknowledge that infidelity is very widespread generally.

In fact my brother has Moon square to Venus, and he has been married to his first and only wife for decades and I know of none of the complexes that you speak of.

Last edited by Cary2; 11-26-2020 at 04:49 AM.
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  #3  
Unread 11-28-2020, 10:33 AM
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Bunraku Bunraku is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

Men loved Madonna in her earlier years. People never knew how out there she was until she released her sex book. That was a cultural reset.
She’s rumored to be a Leo rising. She’s also a Virgo and has a motherly side to her that the world doesn’t see.

Some women have it all
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  #4  
Unread 01-15-2021, 09:39 PM
OuterPlanets89 OuterPlanets89 is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

I think Moon/Venus hard aspects (especially the square) are significators of the Madonna/Whore complex IF they're afflicted by other planets. I would guess that a Square could be stable if the two planets were otherwise well supported in the chart.

Someone in my family has Leo Moon square Scorpio Venus conjunct Scorpio Jupiter. While he's been "faithful" and "devoted," he expects his wife (who is far older) to mother/spoil him. His mother was heavily Plutonian and spoiled/controlled him growing up. Also, Leo square Scorpio/Taurus in most configurations usually makes it very difficult to change/evolve negative behavioral patterns related to it.

Overall I'd say these aspects in men would be the most likely:

1) Moon/Pluto: The Hades Moon often indicates an overly enmeshed/psychic connection with the mother (at its best). At its worst, it can mean a deeply wounded emotional core. This is usually easier to heal in daughters than sons, as the men with this placement often project their feelings outwards towards women, as their inner Anima is constantly at war with itself.

2) Moon/Saturn (or Venus/Saturn): Usually comes from families where the mother was the disciplinarian/authority figure, and the Anima is linked with a planet usually signifying the harsh father. This creates an inner lack of connection to the feminine, which can create a complex around giving/receiving love, as well as in their image of a woman.

3) Moon/Venus: Talked about it above. Other planets/configurations usually need to play a role. But when they do, this one usually tells a clear story about a man's unhealthy experience with the feminine growing up.

Venus/Pluto, Moon/Neptune (in combo with harsh Saturn placements) and perhaps some others could play a role.
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  #5  
Unread 01-25-2021, 04:13 AM
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CapAquaPis CapAquaPis is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

Anyone like myself with a Venus opposite Pluto in their natal chart describes a person struggles with feelings of desire, envy and greed. It would be harder to obtain a close relationship with another person under this aspect. And I don't have an active romantic or sex life, but I had an occasional GF like last year.
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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  #6  
Unread 02-03-2021, 12:01 AM
Lin Lin is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

The MOON/VENUS connection in a man's chart is a VERY big subject.

And as Cary said, the term ''whore complex'' is not a recognized astrological designation. Sounds like a term to ''get attention.''

The moon rules the mother....in both male and female charts. The moon represents habits and patterns in the person's life.

How functional the moon is or dysfunctional in any particular chart, will be shown by the position and aspects of the moon in the chart.

Venus is the male LOVE image. Theoretically if the man chooses a woman whose traits are those represented by Venus, he will be more compatible with her in many ways.

If both those planets are debilitated in the chart, (I won't give examples, but mostly it would be heavy planets poorly aspected to Venus and Moon), the man could be very confused about his attractions to a particular woman. He could want the energy of the Venus but be needy for the Moon energy....EVEN IF HE HAD A POOR RELATIONSHIP OR EVEN VERY DYSFUNCTIONAL RELATIONSHIP with his mother or the mother figure in the event he was brought up with someone other than the mother.

OR...if the mother was absent or had work hours which made her contact with the child not average....OR if the child was left with an unsuitable care giver....this would skew the psychology of the way the child interpreted ''mother love''....and therefore have issues with women or women who would be mothers...or women who are mothers.

You see how complicated just these 2 energies are in a man's chart.

In a woman's chart it's a bit different. If Venus and the Moon are poorly aspected there can be a lot of issues about identity and self esteem....and whether the woman will be a mother like her own mother or retain her Venus energy because Venus represents love and happiness and what is valuable in one's life.

The moon represents the learned behaviors and patterns passed down by the mother...for better or worse or both.

If either the moon or Venus is angular, that energy will probably be more prominent....but not necessarily for the better or the long term advantage to the native.

The entire chart must ALWAYS be interpreted.

LIN
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Last edited by Lin; 02-03-2021 at 12:45 AM.
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  #7  
Unread 02-22-2021, 11:51 PM
wan wan is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

What if in a man's chart, the venus forms a quincunx with the moon? This isn't technically a hard aspect, however I believe it's disharmonious, too. How would this manifest in said man's love life?
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  #8  
Unread 02-23-2021, 12:03 AM
AstroPunter86 AstroPunter86 is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

The Madonna/Whore complex is a Virgo archetype.

Madonna is just another name for the Virgin Mary, they're the same thing. And Madonna/Virgin Mary is widely known as the Virgo mythology in Biblical/Astrological allegory.

The Madonna/Whore complex is basically the Virgo/Virgin mentality of a woman being either too perfect or too imperfect to love. That is essentially the sexual nature of Virgo in a nutshell.

Strong placements in Virgo will give this complex.
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  #9  
Unread 04-21-2021, 12:02 AM
misshectorjunior misshectorjunior is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary2 View Post
The "Madonna-whore complex" is not in any of the diagnostic manuals. It's a new term to me. If it exists, it seems unlikely to me that Moon/Venus is its indicator.
Liz Greene has written about this complex extensively and its relationship to moon venus squares in a mans chart, see The Luminaries by Greene and Sasportas.
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  #10  
Unread 04-21-2021, 03:16 AM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

When I first met my husband, almost 40 years ago, I was thrilled and relieved to see his exact Moon/Venus trine.

He has Moon/Uranus in Cancer/3rd Trine Mars/Scorpio in 8th Trine Venus/Pisces in the 12th.

So all 3 are exalted and in a Water Grand trine, with very tight orbs.

I think it is because my chart ruler, Venus, is in the 7th in Sag, and is the midpoint of my Sun/Moon sextile.

I have a lot of difficult aspects and placements, but my Venus in the 7th is the one very positive one that played out as it should.
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  #11  
Unread 04-23-2021, 08:52 PM
love-thinking love-thinking is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post
Alternative title: Venus&Moon in a male chart.

I am interested in understanding the Moon and Venus archetypes in a male chart.
It is generally considered that a difficult relationship between a Venus and Moon in a male chart would indicate a hardship with integrating lover/wife into one woman.

Issues with loosing attraction to a lover once she becomes a wife or vice versa. Struggles with reaching a long term relationship.

Struggle with the mother in law or their own mother not liking their partner.

I have studied a few charts over the years of people I know and over time and it seems to hold some water.

Some examples:

Moon conjuct Venus
Usually artistic, wonderful nurturing parents and tend to be very at ease with showing "feminine' qualities in their relationships. They have no problem turning a lover into a wife. They see her as one.

Opposing Venus-Moon
May have trouble balancing different types of women they are attracted to and going from one extreme to the other. They may date Venus until age 30 and switch to Moon when they decide to marry.

Squaring venus-Moon
The hardest hardest stories. They are also very creative like the conjunction but struggle with reaching their ideal relationship.

Any real life examples and thoughts?
You have to look for extreme cognitive dissonance in a chart. I heard venus-pluto aspects were notorious for this. I dated a man who had a madonna-whore complex who had moon inconjunct venus and venus square pluto.

He wanted to have sex with me while he made up delusions in his head that I was cheating, but was disappointed and sexually turned off when I was found to be just your average mill of a girl (with complexity but not as dark as he wanted me to). He wanted to save his mom through me. His mom cheated on his dad. His former girlfriends "apparently cheated as well." LOL I doubt it.

Right now I'm dating a man with moon in virgo opposing his venus in pisces with asc in scorpio with pluto in it, and sun is in cap. I don't know if it'll seem like he will exhibit such symptoms but one thing I found interesting about him is that he attracts to himself or likes girls that are very different from him. If he is real, honest, simply dressed, and authentic, he wants/attracts to him a poised woman who is glamorous whose image that is projected is a little bit fake. Then he criticizes just that. His ex was like me in many ways and has facial features similar to mine. It scares me that he's trying to resolve his issues with his ex through me.
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  #12  
Unread 06-30-2021, 05:38 AM
love-thinking love-thinking is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post
Alternative title: Venus&Moon in a male chart.

I am interested in understanding the Moon and Venus archetypes in a male chart.
It is generally considered that a difficult relationship between a Venus and Moon in a male chart would indicate a hardship with integrating lover/wife into one woman.

Issues with loosing attraction to a lover once she becomes a wife or vice versa. Struggles with reaching a long term relationship.

Struggle with the mother in law or their own mother not liking their partner.

I have studied a few charts over the years of people I know and over time and it seems to hold some water.

Some examples:

Moon conjuct Venus
Usually artistic, wonderful nurturing parents and tend to be very at ease with showing "feminine' qualities in their relationships. They have no problem turning a lover into a wife. They see her as one.

Opposing Venus-Moon
May have trouble balancing different types of women they are attracted to and going from one extreme to the other. They may date Venus until age 30 and switch to Moon when they decide to marry.

Squaring venus-Moon
The hardest hardest stories. They are also very creative like the conjunction but struggle with reaching their ideal relationship.

Any real life examples and thoughts?

I think I'm going to comment again as I have thought about this looking at charts.

You are right about Moon and Venus not being in alignment. So I'll say this, if moon and venus are not in the same element or even the same yin-yang polarity, there may be a layer of dissonance between what kind of lover they fancy and want to have a good time with and who they want to marry. You also have to see what planets the venus/moon is with which will add another layer as to who he likes and how acts with whom. I would also look at the lowest degree planet.

Now Lilith is not what a man actively looks for in a partner (like moon and venus) but when he finds Lilith and actively brews in that archetype's presence for a while, they will be fascinated and yet repulsed at the same time.

Now moon-pluto, and venus-pluto adds another layer to this. There are some people we just have to work out a love-hate relationship with to purge out underlying subconcious issues with no matter how much another person (without said synastry aspects) is good on paper.
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  #13  
Unread 07-05-2021, 02:16 PM
turkish girl turkish girl is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary2 View Post
Of all the hard aspects that one might find between two planets, those between Venus and Moon are probably the easiest. The remainder of the chart is of utmost importance in interpretation, but otherwise, Moon/Venus folks tend to be sentimental and devoted. Most of the time the greatest trouble I find with Moon/Venus in hard aspect is a tendency to be emotionally needy; in men there is sometimes a slight effeminacy. In women, there may be a disconcerting too-sweet affectation.

The "Madonna-whore complex" is not in any of the diagnostic manuals. It's a new term to me. If it exists, it seems unlikely to me that Moon/Venus is its indicator.

In a male chart, the likeliest sign of trouble with women is usually Moon/Pluto. In the case of infidelity, hard aspects between Venus and Mars are more likely, but some three-way combinations are even more likely to be in evidence. I acknowledge that infidelity is very widespread generally.

In fact my brother has Moon square to Venus, and he has been married to his first and only wife for decades and I know of none of the complexes that you speak of.
Why Moon/Pluto is a sign of trouble can you please explain it for me?
I can understand venus and mars .
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  #14  
Unread 07-05-2021, 02:26 PM
turkish girl turkish girl is offline
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
When I first met my husband, almost 40 years ago, I was thrilled and relieved to see his exact Moon/Venus trine.

He has Moon/Uranus in Cancer/3rd Trine Mars/Scorpio in 8th Trine Venus/Pisces in the 12th.

So all 3 are exalted and in a Water Grand trine, with very tight orbs.

I think it is because my chart ruler, Venus, is in the 7th in Sag, and is the midpoint of my Sun/Moon sextile.

I have a lot of difficult aspects and placements, but my Venus in the 7th is the one very positive one that played out as it should.

Do you think a person with a harder placement in chart and another has sextiles and trines as you told above.Can it make a big difference with two hard aspected chart people?

Is it like one tensioned person and one angry one aganist two angry one.

Because I too have a very hard chart with T square and I dont think I would ever have a good synatry anyone I mean male or female
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  #15  
Unread Today, 12:38 AM
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Re: Madonna-whore complex in a male chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post
Alternative title: Venus&Moon in a male chart.

I am interested in understanding the Moon and Venus archetypes in a male chart.
It is generally considered that a difficult relationship between a Venus and Moon in a male chart would indicate a hardship with integrating lover/wife into one woman.

Issues with loosing attraction to a lover once she becomes a wife or vice versa. Struggles with reaching a long term relationship.

Struggle with the mother in law or their own mother not liking their partner.

I have studied a few charts over the years of people I know and over time and it seems to hold some water.

Some examples:

Moon conjuct Venus
Usually artistic, wonderful nurturing parents and tend to be very at ease with showing "feminine' qualities in their relationships. They have no problem turning a lover into a wife. They see her as one.

Opposing Venus-Moon
May have trouble balancing different types of women they are attracted to and going from one extreme to the other. They may date Venus until age 30 and switch to Moon when they decide to marry.

Squaring venus-Moon
The hardest hardest stories. They are also very creative like the conjunction but struggle with reaching their ideal relationship.

Any real life examples and thoughts?
The Madonna and the whore are archetypes. They can show up one at a time or simultaneously (well almost) where we project the archetype onto the other or the other has taken the archetype onto themselves to act out. They are opposites. Venus in Pisces could be the exalted Virgin men fantasize about marrying and Venus in Scorpio (detriment) could trigger the Whore - as examples only. Men often want both -either in one woman or by adding a mistress. The point is that no one particular pair of planets will symbolize how these archetypes play out in solo or in relationship. According to Jung - in order for us to individuate, we need to balance the opposites. We need to hold the two in consciousness so that a third way emerges. Would a chart show these dynamics --Maybe but the astrologer has to be evolved enough to be able to interpret the chart to see where a complex - any complex may arise. I'm not sure that I'm competent enough to recognize psychological complexes in the chart but it is a lot easier to identify them once the story is known from the client.
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