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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #76  
Unread 06-04-2021, 03:26 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

*




Of the seven metals, Saturn rules lead
which has a very dull surface
and makes a thick, heavy sound when struck.
Lead is also the heaviest, the most stable
and the most inert metal
the traditional metal of tombs.

Lead poisoning was originally referred to as 'Saturnism'
because the physical ailments of ingesting small quantities of lead include
fatigue, depression and melancholia.
Lead collects in bone tissue
and is more prevalent in the bones of old people than those of the young.

Nick Kollerstrom in his book ASTROCHEMISTRY
explores the link between Saturn, lead and Saturnism
reminding us that the effects of lead poisoning
are to 'slow down' the mental processes of the mind.
Saturn also rules all ordinary country stones that have no glitter and shine.
It is said to rule the dross of all metals and the dust, ash and rubbish of everything.
It does however, have some rulership over diamonds
the hardest mineral, derived from crystallised carbon.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/astrology_saturn.html




.

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Unread 06-09-2021, 08:30 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

.




by the way

the Moon WHEN VISIBLE
is visible solely because

Moon REFLECTS the LIGHT of the SUN

and


SATURN sole DOMICILE ruler of Aquarius

is visible also
by REFLECTING the LIGHT of the SUN




.
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Unread 06-13-2021, 12:22 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

.




Quote:
One question for clarification:

You said “Operative is angular or succedent (post-ascending)”
. Do you mean Operative is succedent?

Since Ascending here already means angular?


Operative (chrematistikos) in the Hellenistic tradition referred to both the angular and succedent places. In the sample, this would basically mean I gave two points for an angular Light, 1 for succedent and 0 for cadent. This is generally how it is treated traditionally, although there is some slight ambiguity to how operative are the succedents compared to the angles, whether it is a 50% strength, something like 66% or the like. Generally though, they are treated as operative along with the angles, while the cadents are noted as completely useless. So it may have been just a two-grade consideration, and it actually sometimes feels that way.

Note that the operative places according to some authors are different. These authors think that the 2nd and 8th place are worse than the 9th because of no aspect, but I disagree.

Quote:
Lastly, you said the Master of the Nativity holds great powers in the Egyptian tradition. Could you recommend some sources so I can look into this? Thank you.
Quote:
Petosiris seems to have defined the place perfectly, even though he spoke in mystic riddles: “The beginning, the end, the controller, and the measurement standard of the whole is the houseruling star of each nativity: it makes clear what kind of person the native will be, what kind of basis his livelihood will have, what his character will be, what sort of body <=health and appearance> he will have, and all the things that will accompany him in life. Without this star nothing, neither occupation nor rank, will come to anyone.”
Valens later disagrees, saying ''But, how is it possible for a nativity to succeed in everything or, on the other hand, to fail in everything, depending just on the houserulership of just one star?'' - Valens, V. Anthologia.

Translated by Mark Riley.
- https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf - page 54

Valens quotes Nechepso and Petosiris frequently, in two places they referred to the Lot of Fortune as place (the Lots were associated with whole signs/houses) from which ''the whole can be seen'' - ruling place, powerful and controlling.



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  #79  
Unread 06-15-2021, 08:09 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

Hippies had to do a lot of drugs to think Saturn's age would be great.

Here's a random question: Saturn trine ascendant in a day chart. Yay or nay? Dun dun dunn.
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze View Post

Hippies had to do a lot of drugs to think Saturn's age would be great.
Here's a random question:

Saturn trine ascendant in a day chart.
Yay or nay? Dun dun dunn.

Above or below the horizon?




.
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Unread 06-15-2021, 08:29 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Above or below the horizon?




.
Below, 5th house.

Pisces Saturn always confuses me.
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Unread 06-15-2021, 08:34 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze View Post


Below, 5th house.

Pisces Saturn always confuses me
.
WHOLE SIGN or any Quadrant system?



.
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  #83  
Unread 06-15-2021, 08:38 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

Trining Cancer would be bad. Scorpio would be okay.



One might argue that Saturn in Pisces is generally tolerable, because Venus rules Saturn's exaltation. Might.



But it's not the worst place.



Quote:
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Below, 5th house.

Pisces Saturn always confuses me.
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  #84  
Unread 06-15-2021, 08:42 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
WHOLE SIGN or any Quadrant system?



.
Whole Signs, Mon Ami.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Trining Cancer would be bad. Scorpio would be okay.



One might argue that Saturn in Pisces is generally tolerable, because Venus rules Saturn's exaltation. Might.



But it's not the worst place.
You guessed it - Trine Scorpio ascendant, though ascendant is conjunct domicile Mars. A strange tag-team to go along with a Libra Sun/Merc/Venus sitting in the 12th.
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Unread 06-15-2021, 08:45 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post

Trining Cancer would be bad. Scorpio would be okay.
.
Trine Cancer gotta trine Scorpio

and vice versa






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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post

One might argue that Saturn in Pisces is generally tolerable
because Venus rules Saturn's exaltation.

Might.
anything is possible
albeit however unlikely

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post

But it's not the worst place.
it's all relative to the totality of the chart




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Unread 06-15-2021, 10:10 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze View Post


Whole Signs, Mon Ami.
You guessed it - Trine Scorpio ascendant, though
ascendant is conjunct domicile Mars.

A strange tag-team to go along

with a Libra Sun/Merc/Venus sitting in the 12th.

Ruler of 10th in 12th
is Mercury rising before or after the sun?



.
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Unread 06-18-2021, 02:33 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

*


dr.farr provides additional traditional detail
Quote:



-in Western traditional, Saturn is associated with the element earth
(thus Saturn as dispositor of earthy Capricorn)

-in the Vedic tradition, however,
Saturn is associated with the element air
(thus Saturn as dispositor of airy Aquarius)

Could Saturn be a double-element planet (earth + air)?

There is some tradition about Mercury being a double
(earth + water; air + earth)...

-then there is the theory
of the original attribution of sign "rulerships"
based on planet's relationship to the Sun:
ie,
: for the outward spread of planets going from the Sun:
Sun = Leo,
next planet Mercury = next sign Virgo,
then Venus = next sign Libra,
then Mars = Scorpio,
then Jupiter = Sagittarius,
then (final on the outward spread) Saturn = Capricon

+Then starting from the outer limit coming back toward the Sun:
: outermost (traditional planet) Saturn = Aquarius,
then next planet
(coming back inward-sunward-from Saturn) is Jupiter = Pisces,
then next planet coming sunward is Mars = Aries,
then next planet coming sunward is Venus = Taurus,
next planet coming sunward is Mercury = Gemini,
and finally a jot toward the earth, with Moon = Cancer

(Sun to Moon via the circuit of the solar system,
Leo outward through signs,
then back inward through signs, Leo to Cancer)
Could be why
(or another reason why)
Saturn allocated to Capricorn and to Aquarius,
in the olden times...
.
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  #89  
Unread 06-19-2021, 11:46 AM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

*


HOW TO DELINEATE SATURN SOLE DOMICILE RULER OF AQUARIUS


When faced with the smorgasbord of tools and techniques
found in Traditional Astrology

the beginner Astrologer often finds themselves asking
that singularly important question: "Where to begin?"


Steven E. Birchfield speaks about how best to orient ourselves
when beginning to read a natal chart traditionally.
There is a vast landscape of tradition, practice, and practicality
which one of the leading luminaries
within the field of Traditional Astrology in the world today
guides us on our journey
towards the heart of a grounded approach to Astrology.
Steven Birchfield on Reading A Natal Chart using Traditional Astrology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRF...&feature=share


.
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Unread 06-21-2021, 12:21 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

*


SATURN

Physical descriptions offered:

Generally the body is cold and dry, of a middle stature
the complexion pale, swartish or muddy
his eyes small and dark, looking downward
a broad forehead, black or sad hair, and it hard or rugged
great ears, hanging
lowering eye-brows, thick lips and nose, a rare or thin beard
a lumpish, unpleasant countenance
either holding his head forward or stooping
his shoulders broad and large, and many times crooked
his belly somewhat short and lank
his thighs spare, lean and not long
his knees and feet indecent, many times shovelling
or hitting one against another.


You must observe, if Saturn is oriental of the Sun
the stature is more short, but decent and well composed
if occidental, the man is more black and lean, and fewer hairs
if Saturn lacks latitude, the body is leaner
if he have great latitude, the body is more fat or fleshy
if the latitude be meridional or south, more fleshy
but quick in motion.
If the latitude be north, hairy and much flesh.
Saturn in his first station, a little fat.
In his second station, fat, ill favoured bodies, and weak
and this applies to all the other planets.


Manners when well dignified:

Profound in imagination, severe in his acts, in words reserved
in speaking and giving very spare, in labour patient
in arguing or disputing grave
in obtaining the goods of this life studious and solicitous
in all manner of actions austere.



Manners when badly placed:

Then he is envious, covetous, jealous and mistrustful
timorous, sordid, outwardly dissembling,sluggish, suspicious, stubborn
a condemner of women, a close liar, malicious, murmuring
never contented, ever repining.


.
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Unread 06-22-2021, 07:59 AM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

*



NATURE OF SATURN SOLE DOMICILE RULER OF AQUARIUS

'....Therefore, the nature of Saturn is cold, dry, melancholic
dark, of heavy harshness.

And perhaps he will be cold [and] moist
heavy, of stinking odor
and he is of much eating and true esteem.

And he signifies works of moisture and the cultivation of land
and peasants, and village companions
and the settlement of lands
also buildings and waters and rivers
and the quantities or measures of things
and the divisions of the earth
also affluence and a multitude of assets
and masteries which are done by hand
greed and the greatest poverty and the poor. ....'

The Introductions to Traditional Astrology:
Abu Ma'shar & al-Qabisi from which this passage is extracted,
is available for purchase directly from Ben via his personal website.





.
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

*



SATURN in physical description
is described as 'cold and dry'
This points to little flesh on the bones, small eyes
no alluring softness in curves and dimples
the hair is not soft, shiny and bouncy
but sparse and tends towards being lacklustre, pale or dull.
The body is generally thin and angular
with prominent bone structure
but sometimes it may incline towards excess fat, due to a weak, lethargic constitution.
The countenance is downward looking
and there is often an awkward gait, a slow, hesitant movement
with little trace of a spring in the step
www.skyscript.co.uk/astrology_saturn.html



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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

*




THE NATURE of SATURN SOLE DOMICILE RULER OF AQUARIUS
is

Masculine, diurnal
cold and dry
melancholic
earthly
malevolent
the Greater Infortune
Author of solitariness


.
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

Quote:


HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY uses CHRONOCRATORS
Chrono = Time
Crator = Ruler
aka TIME RULERS
aka TIME LORDS

Valens explains in Book Seven that
there can be - and often are - at any one time, several Time Lords
and so

according to Valens if these Time Lords are all benefics
the judgement is for a beneficial year.
but if these TIME LORDS are all benefics mixed with malefics as well
then the judgement is for a mixed year
If these TIME LORDS are all malefics judgement is for a difficult year

Vettius Valens explains in detail in THE ANTHOLOGY
FREE to read online pdf translated from the original Ancient Greek
at
https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

Book Seven of THE ANTHOLOGY by Vettius Valens states
'....Take the ascensional time of a sign
and count it up with the period of the planet in this sign.
The sum gives a particular year.

TABLE OF ASCENSIONAL ARCS OF ZODIAC SIGNS
is viewable at http://www.projecthindsight.com/imag...nsionTimes.pdf

Rhetorius translation by James Holden provides a chart example
which states that effect of planet lasts until its period ends.
more info for interested at https://patrickwatsonastrology.com/i...XVZVt6W9a7SJq0





https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...635#post991635
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

*





.........
Quote:


saturn is the furthest traditional planet from the sun.

.....the sun rules leo.

saturn rules aquarius because it's furthest from the sun,
and
the coldest planet.
aquarius is rigid, cold, dogmatic, impersonal
- that seems to fit saturnian energy pretty well.

saturn diametrically opposes the sun,
which also makes sense here.
that's the actual why in trad astrology.





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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

.





FREE Personal Transit Calendar
for checking the current time-lord

and it's annual aspects:

horoscopes.astro-seek.com/personal-transits-online-astrology-calendar



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Unread 06-29-2021, 10:27 PM
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

Quote:


Lead, and zinc are effective moss control elements.
They protect what is below them

by leaving a covering on top
and killing any organism

that tries to grow underneath it
by leaching when it rains.
Traditionally
SATURN, SOLE DOMICILE RULER OF AQUARIUS rules LEAD

LEAD IS A HIGHLY TOXIC METAL


AND
A VERY STRONG POISON


Lead poisoning is a serious and sometimes fatal condition.
It occurs when lead builds up in the body.
Lead is found in lead-based paints
including paint on the walls of old houses and toys.



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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

*



SATURN IS SOLE DOMICILE RULER OF AQUARIUS
aka the IMAGE OF THE WATER-POURER

In ancient astrology the method
for determining the ruler of the chart was much more complex.

There are references to the MASTER OF THE NATIVITY in many
surviving astrological texts from Hellenistic astrology tradition,
but not many surviving discussions about how to calculate it.

The approach in this lecture is derived from chapter 30
of Porphyry's Introduction to the Tetrabiblos
which is itself derived from
a lost work of definitions by Antiochus of Athens.

How to calculate the predominator (epikratētōr)
the master of the nativity (oikodespotēs geneseōs)
the co-master or joint master of the nativity (sunoikodespotēs)
and the lord of the nativity (kurios).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo8gXjDEQmM&t=3470s




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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS

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WHEN DELINEATING SATURN SOLE DOMICILE RULER OF AQUARIUS

keep in mind the following


















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Re: SATURN is SOLE DOMICILE RULER of AQUARIUS




Dodekatopos




Quote:


The reverse is also true, overfeeling can lead to underthinking.
Mirror images
I - children of parents, friends of relatives, relatives of friends, husband of wife, parents of children
II - friends of parents, suffering of relatives, parents of friends, property of wife, fortune of children
III - suffering of parents, siblings of relatives, fortune of friends, travel of wife, injury of children
IV - siblings of parents, livelihood of relatives, injury of friends, action of wife, wives of children
V - livelihood of parents, relatives of relatives, wives of friends, friends of wife, property of children
VI - relatives of parents, parents of relatives, property of friends, suffering of wife, travel of children
VII - parents of parents, fortune of relatives, travel of friends, siblings of wife, children of children
VIII - fortune of parents, injury of relatives, children of friends, livelihood of wife, friends of children
IX - injury of parents, wives of relatives, friends of friends, relatives of wife, suffering of children
X - grandchildren of parents, property of relatives, suffering of friends, parents of wife, siblings of children
XI - property of parents, travel of relatives, siblings of friends, fortune of wife, livelihood of children
XII - travel of parents, action of relatives, livelihood of friends, injury of wife, relatives of children

Is it possible to avoid infinite regress of relatives in the odd numbered signs?
Last edited by petosiris; 11-24-2018 at 07:37 PM.

Moderation in moderation leads to more moderation, not extremes actually.

This is why the mean is best virtue in some Eastern philosophies
and according to Aristotle. It is active, not passive
Moderately moderate = extremely moderate
The word you are looking for is immoderate.


Quote:
The opposite of exaltation (heightened) is depression (low height), but the language being used is in terms of height. The Sun is highest in Aries, and lowest in Libra. It is lower in Leo than Cancer as well, but it has affinity through domicile. - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...postcount=5779


The opposite of the exaltation is depression. The Greek hypsoma imply literal latitude. Pliny and Valens treat those as literal latitude. Ptolemy appears to be the first source with a completely seasonal rationale, perhaps he was aware of some technical flaw in the epicyclic theory.

Another fragment from the Michigan papyrus:
''Still other ethereal constellations revolve in their own circles. The Sun is in apogee in Gemini; Venus is in perigee in Pisces and in apogee in Virgo; Jupiter is in apogee in Cancer and in perigee in Capricorn'' - see Michigan Papyri, Vol III, Papyri in the University of Michigan Collection, Miscellaneous Papyri, Ed. John Garret Winter, University of Michigan Press, Ann Arbor, MI, 1936. Translation by F.E. Robbins.

Note that there is some inconsistency with the epicyclic theory since the Sun has apogee in Gemini (and is changing but they did not know about that until the Middle Ages) from a geocentric perspective. Perhaps the Sun and the Moon exaltations are seasonal (in the Babylonian zodiac) while the others are related to stations, and as such were then integrated into the epicyclic theories by the Greeks.

If the other five planets exaltations are related to epicyclic perigree and apogee, they were not meant to be used in a tropical zodiac due to how revolutions work (they do not have precession as noted by Ptolemy in Almagest 9.6). Last edited by petosiris; 11-04-2018 at 07:52 PM.


That is how the Greeks conceptualized them anyways, it has nothing to do with emotional considerations having precedence over rank and power, lol.

One can easily spot that Libra and Sagittarius are the domiciles of the benefics, yet adjacent to the planets' depression. The domicile definitely takes precedence to the placement by adjacency, yet the adjacency still takes some power away from the planets. Exaltations are better than domiciles, contrary to what some people think. If Mars in Aries is +4 from domicile and -1 from masculine sign, then Venus in Libra is +2 since it is a masculine sign (-1) and adjacent to its depression (-2). Venus still rejoices in Libra, but not as much as in Taurus and especially Pisces.
Last edited by petosiris; 11-26-2018 at 12:05 AM.


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