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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Unread 11-22-2020, 04:59 AM
muchacho muchacho is offline
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Re: So what is the purpose of traditional astrology in today’s world?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
What I mean is that it is highly unlikely for any woman living in the 21st century to genuinely ask such a pointless question to an astrologer in the first place, considering an horary reading can be more expensive than a home pregnancy test.

This makes me question your assertion that you have "done research on over 100 charts" of that type of question. The question is rarely asked.
The point is to test the technique with genuine charts where you also know the outcome. What does it matter if that question gets usually asked once per day or only once per year? That's beside the point. And you are wrong, that question gets asked much more often than you might think. There are actually regularly cases where the horary was right and the pregnancy test wrong. Just take a look into the archives, there are hundreds of "Am I pregnant?" questions.

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  #27  
Unread 11-22-2020, 05:01 AM
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Re: So what is the purpose of traditional astrology in today’s world?

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The point is to test the technique with genuine charts where you also know the outcome. What does it matter if that question gets usually asked once per day or only once per year? That's beside the point. And you are wrong, that question gets asked much more often than you might think. There are actually regularly cases where the horary was right and the pregnancy test wrong. Just take a look into the archives, there are hundreds of "Am I pregnant?" questions.
I see - so you are using the Horary section as your database? Your research comes from charts posted on forums?

It does matter, because it is a question which is so rare, so uncommon, that it would take an astrologer decades to just get a handful of those questions, much less one hundred charts of the same question.

If you have 100 charts on the issue, it is unlikely you cast them yourself, and they probably come from third party sources. Am I wrong?
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Last edited by Dirius; 11-22-2020 at 05:11 AM.
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  #28  
Unread 11-22-2020, 05:25 AM
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Re: So what is the purpose of traditional astrology in today’s world?

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...your assertion that you have "done research on over 100 charts"...
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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
I see - so you are using the Horary section as your database? Your research comes from charts posted on forums?

It does matter, because it is a question which is so rare, so uncommon, that it would take an astrologer decades to just get a handful of those questions, much less one hundred charts of the same question.

If you have 100 charts on the issue, it is unlikely you cast them yourself, and they probably come from third party sources. Am I wrong?
Please read what I wrote:

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
I actually did some research with almost a hundred pregnancy charts ("Am I pregnant?"...
It's actually a variety of sources.

You are welcome to present your own research and prove me wrong. Send me a PM when you have your data ready. Then we can discuss it and compare our findings. But you have to do the work first. Just quoting from books or relying on a handful of anecdotal evidence from your own occasional chart reading practice is not enough. You'll see that when you actually do the work. Good luck!

ETA: Just saw your signature. Seems you have a reputation to defend. Hence the combativeness. In case there's any doubt on your part, no harm intended. Just talking data and facts. Nothing personal. I think 100 charts is a good number on any research topic. If I would have stopped after just 10 or 20 charts, I'd probably would have thought Lilly works just fine, hehe. I also checked with different house systems and even tropical vs. sidereal. It's a lot of work, but totally worth it. Looking forward to hearing from your own research.
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Last edited by muchacho; 11-22-2020 at 05:35 AM.
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  #29  
Unread 11-22-2020, 05:40 AM
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Re: So what is the purpose of traditional astrology in today’s world?

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Please read what I wrote:
It's actually a variety of sources.
Then, as I suspected, you were not the astrologer to cast every single chart. Many, if not all of them, come from third party sources.

How do you know these charts were the originals then?

a) People in forums, or over the internet, have the weird tendency of casting multiple charts on the same issue, or asking the same question repeatedly. Many times users don't post the first chart on the issue, just the chart they preferred.

b) Many times users also, do not ask questions with intent, meaning they are not really curious about the issue. They ask questions for the sake of asking, because it is free, and there is no impediment for asking any sort of question, multiple times.

I'm just pointing out, it is possible, many of the charts you based your researched on, are not real horary charts, just invalid charts cast by inexperienced users, who have a tendency to cast multiple charts on the same issue.

When you put things into perspective, your results seem a bit compromised, wouldn't you agree? By the way, I'm not trying to discredit your effort, I think its quite amazing you took the time to research such a vast amount of charts. I just noticed your sample charts, could be compromised.
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  #30  
Unread 11-22-2020, 06:15 AM
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Re: So what is the purpose of traditional astrology in today’s world?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Then, as I suspected, you were not the astrologer to cast every single chart. Many, if not all of them, come from third party sources.

How do you know these charts were the originals then?

a) People in forums, or over the internet, have the weird tendency of casting multiple charts on the same issue, or asking the same question repeatedly. Many times users don't post the first chart on the issue, just the chart they preferred.

b) Many times users also, do not ask questions with intent, meaning they are not really curious about the issue. They ask questions for the sake of asking, because it is free, and there is no impediment for asking any sort of question, multiple times.

I'm just pointing out, it is possible, many of the charts you based your researched on, are not real horary charts, just invalid charts cast by inexperienced users, who have a tendency to cast multiple charts on the same issue.

When you put things into perspective, your results seem a bit compromised, wouldn't you agree? By the way, I'm not trying to discredit your effort, I think its quite amazing you took the time to research such a vast amount of charts. I just noticed your sample charts, could be compromised.
Yes, valid point. But that can also happen if they ask you directly as an astrologer. But the proof is in the pudding, as they say. And it is much simpler and straight forward than many astrology books are trying to make it.

And that's just one question on one topic. So this doesn't mean that traditional techniques and theory in general are flawed. But it does throw some of it into question, at least on this one topic and this one question. That was basically my point.

What was interesting when I compared tropical vs. sidereal was that maybe 50% of the charts gave the same result, no matter if I used tropical or sidereal, the only difference usually was that either the tropical or the sidereal chart would show the result more clearly. But the final verdict was the same for both. I kinda expected that because that's always been my experience. And the bigger the number of charts, the less the house system seemed to matter. I didn't expect that though. Just some interesting side notes. This needs to be confirmed with more charts on other topics, of course. But bottom line is, horary is not rocket science, it's elegant simplicity.

So again, if you've got some research of your own, let me know.
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  #31  
Unread 11-22-2020, 06:32 AM
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Re: So what is the purpose of traditional astrology in today’s world?

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Yes, valid point. But that can also happen if they ask you directly as an astrologer. But the proof is in the pudding, as they say. And it is much simpler and straight forward than many astrology books are trying to make it.

And that's just one question on one topic. So this doesn't mean that traditional techniques and theory in general are flawed. But it does throw some of it into question, at least on this one topic and this one question. That was basically my point.

What was interesting when I compared tropical vs. sidereal was that maybe 50% of the charts gave the same result, no matter if I used tropical or sidereal, the only difference usually was that either the tropical or the sidereal chart would show the result more clearly. But the final verdict was the same for both. I kinda expected that because that's always been my experience. And the bigger the number of charts, the less the house system seemed to matter. I didn't expect that though. Just some interesting side notes. This needs to be confirmed with more charts on other topics, of course. But bottom line is, horary is not rocket science, it's elegant simplicity.

So again, if you've got some research of your own, let me know.
How can you make the claim that your research showed accurate results?

Its possible half or more of your charts were not actual genuine charts on the issue, and the chart you tested your techniques on was totally unrelated to the question. This tends to happen very often, particularly on forums.

To show you what I mean, here a few examples of different Horary threads, in which the user confirmed he/she had not posted the original chart. I recognised this and asked the user. This shows there is a trend on forums about posting invalid charts.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...nal#post633296
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...light=original
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...nal#post742286

Bare in mind some of these were shown to be invalid charts because I asked the user if these were the original. Otherwise, we may not have known. How many threads exist with invalid charts on the forum? countless? hard to say, but there is probably more than we would expect, which is quite a lot.

I'm sorry, even though I respect your effort for doing such a thourough research, the entire argument falls apart on itself, because you achieved your conclusions through compromised data.
---
---
Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
But that can also happen if they ask you directly as an astrologer.

I agree the same may happen when interacting with a direct client, even if you are casting the chart yourself. There are however several factors which prevent this risk:

a) The fact that you can actually ask the client if they had asked the question previously. I do this often actually. Many clients are amateur astrologers, and usually try to cast it themselves before asking for a consult.

b) A paying customer is more likely to ask something they truly want to know. Because it costs them money. They don't usually waste money asking questions for the sake of asking, which occurs often with free readings.

c) When you cast the chart yourself, as the astrologer, you are 100% certain you are using the correct timing.

Because of these reason, the chances of getting invalid charts are actually very low.
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Last edited by Dirius; 11-22-2020 at 06:51 AM.
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  #32  
Unread 11-22-2020, 08:46 AM
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Re: So what is the purpose of traditional astrology in today’s world?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
How can you make the claim that your research showed accurate results?

Its possible half or more of your charts were not actual genuine charts on the issue, and the chart you tested your techniques on was totally unrelated to the question. This tends to happen very often, particularly on forums.

To show you what I mean, here a few examples of different Horary threads, in which the user confirmed he/she had not posted the original chart. I recognised this and asked the user. This shows there is a trend on forums about posting invalid charts.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...nal#post633296
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...light=original
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...nal#post742286

Bare in mind some of these were shown to be invalid charts because I asked the user if these were the original. Otherwise, we may not have known. How many threads exist with invalid charts on the forum? countless? hard to say, but there is probably more than we would expect, which is quite a lot.

I'm sorry, even though I respect your effort for doing such a thourough research, the entire argument falls apart on itself, because you achieved your conclusions through compromised data.
---
---



I agree the same may happen when interacting with a direct client, even if you are casting the chart yourself. There are however several factors which prevent this risk:

a) The fact that you can actually ask the client if they had asked the question previously. I do this often actually. Many clients are amateur astrologers, and usually try to cast it themselves before asking for a consult.

b) A paying customer is more likely to ask something they truly want to know. Because it costs them money. They don't usually waste money asking questions for the sake of asking, which occurs often with free readings.

c) When you cast the chart yourself, as the astrologer, you are 100% certain you are using the correct timing.

Because of these reason, the chances of getting invalid charts are actually very low.
I'm sorry, but you are jumping to conclusions here. Firstly, you don't even know my actual data set. You are just (wrongly) assuming that it consists of only charts posted on forums. Secondly, your invalid chart argument is purely anecdotal and mostly conjecture as to the percentages. And thirdly, in terms of horary theory, your argument is disputed at best.

Again, if you have some actual research data that refutes my data, let me know. Don't get me wrong, your objections are duly noted, but as long as you don't show me some data to the contrary, I'll stick with what I have found out myself, i.e. that there's a lot of nonsense in those books that doesn't actually stand the test of reality.

So at this point, I have no choice but to assume that you have no such data to show me. Which means, from my perspective, this conversation has run its course. Let me know in case you decide to do the work and get your own data. Would be interesting to exchange notes. Cheers!
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Last edited by muchacho; 11-22-2020 at 08:50 AM.
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  #33  
Unread 11-22-2020, 12:47 PM
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Re: So what is the purpose of traditional astrology in today’s world?

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I'm sorry, but you are jumping to conclusions here. Firstly, you don't even know my actual data set. You are just (wrongly) assuming that it consists of only charts posted on forums. Secondly, your invalid chart argument is purely anecdotal and mostly conjecture as to the percentages. And thirdly, in terms of horary theory, your argument is disputed at best.

Again, if you have some actual research data that refutes my data, let me know. Don't get me wrong, your objections are duly noted, but as long as you don't show me some data to the contrary, I'll stick with what I have found out myself, i.e. that there's a lot of nonsense in those books that doesn't actually stand the test of reality.

So at this point, I have no choice but to assume that you have no such data to show me. Which means, from my perspective, this conversation has run its course. Let me know in case you decide to do the work and get your own data. Would be interesting to exchange notes. Cheers!
I asked you twice about the origin of your database, but you chose to avoid answering that specific question.

If my assumption had been wrong, you would have corrected me a few posts ago. You didn't do that despite multiple opportunities - which suggests my assumption is probably correct, and that you are aware that your testing was flawed to begin with.

If a number of the charts you analysed didn't even reflect the nature of the supposed question you had been researching, then you can't make the claim that they work. I'm sorry, but that is how real research works.
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Last edited by Dirius; 11-22-2020 at 01:27 PM.
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  #34  
Unread 11-22-2020, 01:43 PM
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Re: So what is the purpose of traditional astrology in today’s world?

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Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
JA,

Do you practice astrology without context or application?
You live in 2020, and you use astrology.
So obviously you practice astrology in today’s context...
traditional or otherwise.


EXAMPLES OF "...TODAY'S CONTEXT..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

JUPITERASC, mountain lion sightings are not rare in rural/wild western Canada, although this is the first one I've heard of so close to our house. Due to knee troubles I'm not snow-shoeing or hiking in the hills behind our house as I have in the past. Otherwise, the sensible plan is to go with a group, make noise, and stay close together. The word out here is, don't let your cats outside, and don't keep your dog chained by the house, however, as cougars will go after small pets. Smart people don't leave messy barbecue grills outside, either, as the smell attracts them. Bears are common out here, and people who expect that they might encounter them generally take bear spray.

My road is well-settled, but there are kazillions of miles/km of forested mountains in two other directions from my house.

You know, while death by animal attacks in the wild might have happened in late antiquity, I wonder if those death forecasts refer to something like Christians or convicted criminals having to fend off lions in the Colosseum. (cf. Androcles and the Lion.)


Stay warm, tsmall!
One's location would have some bearing siriusly no pun intended
- relevant to being at risk of being attacked by wild beast

Valens chronicled the writings of astrologers preceding him by at least three hundred years who may well have originated from other parts of the globe where animal attacks were of more concern, so it is unsurprising those delineations appear in his Anthology.

Astrologers practicing Hellenistic methods in South America, India, Africa, Spain, the list is endless would think attacks from wild animals not unusual. Of course, in the West there are countless zoos and safari parks whose combined visitor intake is in the millions and wild animal attacks are not that rare. Also many people worldwide keep wild animals as pets.

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

A bristly 50-pound procupine with all its quills stuck out is not my idea of a small animal! Sagittarius seems more allied with exotic pets....
"It's all relative IMO" Einstein commented while visiting a zoo.

Relative to an elephant, a bear, a giraffe, a lion, a tiger, a gorilla, a hippopotamus, a crocodile...
a 50lb crested African Porcupine is a small animal associated with Virgo and small animals

Furthermore,
"exotic" is relative to locale
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post


It has to be big enough for a full grown man to ride to be considered a large animal. Though, I can't think of anyone who would want to try that out...
Unnecessary IMO to try that out Kaiousei no Senshi because obviously according to your useful definition, a 50lb African crested porcupine is clearly a small animal and associated with Virgo.

Relative to being located in a zoo in New Hampshire,a 50lb African crested porcupine is not exotic either
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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
Yes, that was part of the joke.
Thanks for explaining that! Regarding 'exotic' animals, due to the importation of animals from all areas of the planet, in the 21st century, most animals can be found almost anywhere in the world - often as pets, sometimes the pets escape and establish themselves "in the wild" in their new country and interbreed. Also there are hundreds of zoos... not to mention numerous exhibitions for public entertainment such as Aquariums
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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
One reason why I don't think I want to practice Hellenistic astrology although I've been reading a lot of it lately, is because so many of the interpretations are just seem dire to the point of being silly. So how does one practice a reasonably authentic Hellenistic astrology without the sensationalistic interpretations?
BUT to be realistic, 'dire' events do occur from time to time - just reading the news media confirms that fact!
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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Valens also is one guy who loaded his text with a lot of sensationalist and dire predictions. Not my cup of tea, but somebody else might appreciate them.
Sensational events do occur though! As evidenced by news reports
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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
More generally, according to Rhetorius the Egyptian (sec. 77)
you are in danger of being killed by "wild beasts" if your Mars is the ruler of the sign (i.e., Scorpio or Aries) of the 8th house and the house is "impedited" (??)without being aspected by Jupiter or Venus or if Mars is aspected by the sun....
.
QUOTE:

Lion killed volunteer at California big cat sanctuary after the worker climbed into the animals cage.

Dale Anderson, has run the zoo since 1993, cried as he read short statement about the intern's death, extending his thoughts and prayers to victim's family and friends.

Investigators are trying to find out why the woman was inside the enclosure and what might have provoked the attack.

Nicole Paquette, vice president of Humane Society of United States, animal welfare charity, said:

"She should have never been in the enclosure with him.

These are big cats that are extremely dangerous."

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
You know, while death by animal attacks in the wild might have happened in late antiquity, I wonder if those death forecasts refer to something like Christians or convicted criminals having to fend off lions in the Colosseum. (cf. Androcles and the Lion.)
That certainly seems a possibility in antiquity

However, evidence regarding the 20th and 21st Centuries is easier to confirm http://news.sky.com/story/1061203/li...t-big-cat-park

"Last ye
ar - i.e. 2012 - according to Big Cat Rescue Sanctuary in Tampa, Florida, at least 21 people, including five children, have been killed and 246 mauled by exotic cats in the US since 1990.


Over that period, 254 cats escaped and 143 were killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
...With a Mars-sun contact, you are also in danger of being crucified or beheaded, so watch it.
Beheading is a not unusual occurrence even in today's 'civilized world'!

- Mexico for example is frequently in the news regarding drug-cartel related beheading

Unfortunately murders where the victim is beheaded have occurred worldwide - including US

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Has anyone done the horoscope interpretation on victims of predator attacks?
News reports do not provide time, day, year, month, country of birth, unfortunately
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Then we can't say that the Hellenistic techniques to predict animal attacks actually work.
Equally, it cannot be said that the Hellenistic techniques to predict animal attacks actually do not work
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

24 year old died after tiger mauling yesterday in England
'...An experienced zoo worker who was mauled to death by a tiger had "no reason" to be in its enclosure, the animal park's owner claims.

Sarah McClay, 24, was attacked by a Sumatran tiger at South Lakes Wild Animal Park, in Dalton-in-Furness, Cumbria, Friday afternoon and was taken by air ambulance to Royal Preston Hospital but died later from her injuries. Cumbria Police said the tiger was locked in its enclosure following the attack and that members of the public were not at any risk during the incident. Police and Barrow Borough Council are investigating the circumstances surrounding the incident...'
http://www.channel4.com/news/tiger-a...ead-zoo-worker

'….David Gill, owner/founder of South Lakes Wild Animal Park, said Ms McClay worked at the wildlife park for a number of years and was very experienced in looking after big cats - he had no explanation as to why she had entered the enclosure. "After investigation by authorities and police, it does seem that she basically failed to follow the correct procedures. For some unknown reason, an inexplicable reason, because there is no reason for why she did it, she opened the door and went into the tiger enclosure and straight into the tigers, and now we'll never know why."...'

Around the world, deaths from attacks by wild animals are not unusual. Neither date of birth nor time of birth of this victim have been released
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Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post


I think that's extremely sad, for both the human that got mauled and the animal that probably will get put down for mauling. That creature must be very unhappy about something... it was abused/mistreated for it to lash out.
Not necessarily. The zoo owner, whilst acknowledging the tragic nature of the event, is reminding everyone that Tigers are natural born killers/predators so there's nothing odd or strange that a tiger has mauled/killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post


So the creature won't get put down?

It's tragic that the zoo worker was so young and was just going to work one day and then got attacked and died. Working in a zoo can be very dangerous but I'm assuming she understood that level of impending danger. Still, it's tragic and sad. Tigers will kill and all life forms eventually die, but to die horrifically like that at work, that's very sad.

Astrologically, I don't think there's way to predict the attack itself but we could look at the zoo worker's chart (if available) and see what was being aspected that lead to her death (from the attack).
This being the 'Hellenistic Delineations' Thread and also Traditional Forum, if the date of birth of the victim is ever publicized, then delineation of the chart would use Hellenistic astrological techniques as outlined at the beginning of this thread... and an accurate time of birth would be essential

According to news reports the victim was NOT 'suddenly taken unawares by an attacking tiger' but instead she apparently 'deliberately walked ALONE into the inner enclosure amongst the tigers' - extraordinary behavior that has surprised everyone at the zoo, because one simply does not walk alone into an enclosure full of possibly hungry tigers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post


First rule of dealing with wild cats..never turn your back on them. First rule in zookeeping? Any attack is the fault of the human and not the animal.

may28gemini, all zoo people know, understand, and accept that wild animals are and always will be unpredictable (and as a zoo people, I should know.) Do we blame the cat for acting like the cat/predator he/she is? Of course not. There is a parable of sorts, about the scorpion and the frog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

As to whether or not this could be seen in the native's chart, well that is the point that JUPITERASC is trying to make. That which we often want to dismiss in our haste to discount what our ancestors in astrology teach (and which in my opinion can be viewed as metaphor, much the same as what our religious teachings found in the Bible, the Qur'an, the Talmud...or any religious text you choose) often can be interpreted literally instead of symbolically.
Would you please enlighten me how that is an attacking statement? How does that attack traditional astrology in today’s society...
I am genuinely confused... and curious now...

Would you trust Deborah Houlding to perform surgery on you, with only a background in astrology? Lmao!
Siriusly
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  #35  
Unread 11-22-2020, 02:27 PM
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Re: So what is the purpose of traditional astrology in today’s world?

Interesting decision to use the applicability of animal attacks in contemporary times to bolster classical astrology's relevance. As someone who has prior experience working with dangerous animals, can confirm that attacks and injuries due occur frequently enough, especially when being reckless.
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  #36  
Unread 11-22-2020, 02:27 PM
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Re: So what is the purpose of traditional astrology in today’s world?

Maybe the Traditional Astrology is not a Science. I wonder, if it is meaningful to delve into datas and databases.

But one thing clear seems to me is that, it is a traditional predicting tool for human lives, fortunes and tragedies, good lucks or omens.

The non traditional astrologies seem dealing with psychological state of humans, and has more of new age spiritualistic tone in their readings than practical predictions in the world affairs and human lives in reality.

Therefore, the Traditional Astrology is more suitable predictive tool even at 2020 and beyond.

Not sure, if there are people who are still using the non Traditional Astrology for making predictions now year 2020.
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Last edited by Senecar; 11-23-2020 at 11:26 AM.
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