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  #1  
Unread 07-30-2020, 03:28 AM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

Apparently it means life long hermit that is always miserable and has addiction issues.

Anything good about having a Mercury, Chiron, Sun, and Venus there?

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Unread 07-30-2020, 06:10 AM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

Oh, c'mon.

If you're going to talk this way, then let's just call it a permanent curse.

What are you reading about the 12th?
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  #3  
Unread 07-30-2020, 09:56 AM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

So what do you have against a life as a miserable addicted hermit?
Sorry, but your question is so strange....

Can we assume that you find your other houses to be blessings?
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Unread 08-02-2020, 01:01 PM
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Everyone has a 12th house, to Law

Law,

Everyone has a 12th house. Not everyone is a life long hermit that is always miserable and has addiction issues. So clearly simply HAVING a 12th house is not an issue. There are two very different styles of astrology: the traditional style in which life is fated and you have no choice or the modern style in which you have free will to use your energy how you want. If you think your life is fated then you simply need to find a traditional astrologer to tell you how your life will be. If you think you have free will then you need to find out how you will USE your energies in the 12th house.

In modern astrology, the 12th house is the house of spirituality. This CAN indicate being a hermit, being miserable, or having addiction issues. But if you are AWARE of this possibility and you DON'T want to be a hermit, be miserable, or be an addict then you can begin to take CHARGE of your life. With so many energies in the 12th house, you might find it useful to do some meditation every day, when you simply unhook your mind and relax for a bit, letting the stress of the world roll off of you.

Read up about each of these planets in the houses and see how you can USE these energy focuses in your life. After all, the fault lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.

Wishing you peace,

Tim
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  #5  
Unread 08-02-2020, 03:18 PM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

My own understanding of the 12th house is that the native tends to stay in the background. She does not like nor seek the spotlight. Also has a rich inner life.
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Unread 08-02-2020, 08:10 PM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

If you take as a given (and you may not) that everyone's life has some Bad Stuff in it, then traditionally the 12th house was where a lot of the Bad Stuff resided. (Similar to Saturn in traditional astrology.)

In Hindu astrology, the 12th is also the house of a lot of difficulties that people face; but where, with attention to spiritual practices, people can obtain spiritual enlightenment.

Modern astrology in the 1970s seems to have picked up on more of the Hindu idea. However, the 12th is more of the house of mysticism, whereas the 9th house rules conventional religion.

Traditionally the 12th rules people who are shut-in in some way, such as in hospitals, care facilities like nursing homes, prisons, and monasteries. People with a 12th house focus may not be shut-in themselves, but they are often very private people.

The 12th is sometimes called the "house of self-undoing." With the sun in this house, it is hard to sustain a strong sense of ego because life keeps saying, "Not this! Not this!" This is kind of hard for 12th house sun-Leos, but they can develop happy lives when working behind the scenes and focusing on their magnanimous streak. Their home might truly become their den or their castle.

Especially if there is a 12th-6th house axis in the chart, these people seem to do best if they develop a strong altruistic streak and a dedication to serving (6th) people less fortunate than themselves (12th.)

The key is to work selflessly without trying to magnify one's ego: then to appreciate the thanks that selfless altruism brings them in return. Karma comes in as what you give out is what you get back-- multiplied.

Surprisingly, politicians can do well with a 12th house emphasis when they learn to identify with a cause or a constituency greater than themselves, vs. a Me First personality. Joe Biden would be an example.
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  #7  
Unread 08-03-2020, 06:35 AM
curiousabout77 curiousabout77 is offline
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

Sounds like your having tough 12th house transit where all the baggage that has been lumped on you by your family of things that they haven't dealt with from before you were born is being brought to the surface for you to deal with. I have 3 planets in my twelveth house and I have been dealing with pluto for the last 15 years so I know its real tough.
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Unread 08-11-2020, 04:10 AM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
If you take as a given (and you may not) that everyone's life has some Bad Stuff in it, then traditionally the 12th house was where a lot of the Bad Stuff resided. (Similar to Saturn in traditional astrology.)

In Hindu astrology, the 12th is also the house of a lot of difficulties that people face; but where, with attention to spiritual practices, people can obtain spiritual enlightenment.

Modern astrology in the 1970s seems to have picked up on more of the Hindu idea. However, the 12th is more of the house of mysticism, whereas the 9th house rules conventional religion.

Traditionally the 12th rules people who are shut-in in some way, such as in hospitals, care facilities like nursing homes, prisons, and monasteries. People with a 12th house focus may not be shut-in themselves, but they are often very private people.

The 12th is sometimes called the "house of self-undoing." With the sun in this house, it is hard to sustain a strong sense of ego because life keeps saying, "Not this! Not this!" This is kind of hard for 12th house sun-Leos, but they can develop happy lives when working behind the scenes and focusing on their magnanimous streak. Their home might truly become their den or their castle.

Especially if there is a 12th-6th house axis in the chart, these people seem to do best if they develop a strong altruistic streak and a dedication to serving (6th) people less fortunate than themselves (12th.)

The key is to work selflessly without trying to magnify one's ego: then to appreciate the thanks that selfless altruism brings them in return. Karma comes in as what you give out is what you get back-- multiplied.

Surprisingly, politicians can do well with a 12th house emphasis when they learn to identify with a cause or a constituency greater than themselves, vs. a Me First personality. Joe Biden would be an example.
Interesting take so are you saying that for someone with a heavy 12th house, a career in saying acting or anything involving fame and vanity is out of the question?
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Unread 08-11-2020, 06:04 AM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

12h is the house of isolation. Its Moksha, meaning liberation. Its the original 12h, so a water sign.

Isolation can mean many things, losses/hospitals/jails/ashrams/the hidden/foreign lands.

However, it's not fair to judge the 12h without seeing the chart in entirety. To give you an example, I have my 1l in the 12h. Along with other planets. So far, it gave me the chance to settle abroad.

That said, keep looking at the significance of the 12h in your own horoscope. DM me birth details if you want more ideas on how to interpret your chart.
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  #10  
Unread 08-23-2020, 07:05 PM
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Re: Everyone has a 12th house, to Law

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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
... then you can begin to take CHARGE of your life. With so many energies in the 12th house, you might find it useful to do some meditation every day, when you simply unhook your mind and relax for a bit, letting the stress of the world roll off of you.
As a person with a 12th House stellium including Sun and Pluto (square Moon, opposite Saturn), I can tell you this is now my approach, albeit late in life.

But 19thLaw, you're not doomed to be invisible. I have 2 planets in the 10th House, along with NNode and Part of Fortune conjunct the MC--always tried to be shy and quiet in school. Everyone always knew who I was anyway.

What does that part of your chart look like? What rules the 10th, and what's happening with your Leo (the actor sign). Libras also tend to like being on stage, as well.
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Unread 09-04-2020, 09:51 PM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
The 12th is sometimes called the "house of self-undoing." With the sun in this house, it is hard to sustain a strong sense of ego because life keeps saying, "Not this! Not this!" This is kind of hard for 12th house sun-Leos, but they can develop happy lives when working behind the scenes and focusing on their magnanimous streak. Their home might truly become their den or their castle.comes in as what you give out is what you get back-- multiplied.
And not just by working behind the scenes. Madonna is a twelfth house sun-Leo. She isn't exactly known for being behind the scenes!
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  #12  
Unread 09-05-2020, 01:55 AM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

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Originally Posted by The19thLaw View Post
Interesting take so are you saying that for someone with a heavy 12th house, a career in saying acting or anything involving fame and vanity is out of the question?
It's actually extremely common for actors to have busy twelfth houses. And politicians. And public figures in general.
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  #13  
Unread 09-05-2020, 02:22 AM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

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It's actually extremely common for actors to have busy twelfth houses. And politicians. And public figures in general.
Interesting--I believe you, but why do you suppose that is? Is it perhaps because of the conjunctions formed in the 12th House?

I know there's already another topic here about stelliums in th 12th House, but I guess it's because I'm new to this, I can't ever wrap my head around the particular energies of my Sun-Uranus-Mercury-Pluto all conjunct each other in the 12th. In Virgo. (With hard aspects to the Moon and Saturn. )

But Pluto seems to give a lot of power.
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Unread 09-05-2020, 02:28 AM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

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It's actually extremely common for actors to have busy twelfth houses. And politicians. And public figures in general.
This is interesting but un-expected. You'd think people in the limelight should have a 10th house emphasis.
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Unread 09-05-2020, 02:28 AM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

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And not just by working behind the scenes. Madonna is a twelfth house sun-Leo. She isn't exactly known for being behind the scenes!

Good point about Madonna!


Strangely enough (what about birth certificates? ) Madonna doesn't seem to know her time of birth and its never been clarified. The one used which puts 4 planets into the 12th house is a rectified chart: Rated D/D because of this unknown factor and guesswork.





https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Madonna




She does appear to have a big heart for the needy and grew her family in this manner - of mixed races - children.



Madonna decided to adopt a young girl from Malawi. On 12 June 2009 the high court of that country granted the request, and the three-year-old girl, named Mercy Chifundo James, was flown to London on June 20th. In February 2017, Madonna adopted four-year old twin sisters from Malawi named Esther and Stella.



Although I never as a habit approve of the rectified guesswork charts, in her case there seems to be some 2nd hand information that might be eventually verifiable?


confirmed by LMR (Lois Rodden) on e-mail with Tashi on 7/24/96: "My girlfriend worked for Madonna in her management office and was on speaking terms with her father. We called him one evening and he called the hospital who looked up the records; it was 7:05 AM. I met Madonna and she is very tuned into meditation (the 12th house), loves the mystical and feels a sense of responsibility to the collective transcendence."



Why with all of this 2nd hand info was the chart still rated a D/D?. Probably because it could have been the same info passed around - especially when once published.


Michigan Rock & Roll Legends, as part of their "Bay City's Madonna Tour" on their website, writes that Madonna "was born in Mercy Hospital at 7:05 a.m. on August 16, 1958, in the Maternity Ward on the 4th floor". "The physician who brought Madonna into this world was Dr. Abraham Jacoby". [1]
An article by Marcie Noonan from Bay-Journal, in 2003, states "Madonna Louise Ciccone was born in Bay City at 7:05 AM on August 16, 1958 at the old Mercy Hospital quite unexpectedly. Her parents... were here visiting relatives when her mother who was pregnant at the time went into labor"



It may be that it's not even the time of day but rather the YEAR that is highly in question?
Erin Sullivan quotes an email from Helen Stillwell (CPA Student) in which she writes, "On 12/16/1998, Channel 4 in London, Madonna was interviewed by [Johnny Vaughan]... She asked him what sign he was....she told him she was a Leo with an 'Aquarius Ascendant.'" He talked about a letter that Madonna had written to him... The cameraman actually showed the hand-written letter... at the top of the letter she had written her name and birth date, August 16, 1959... It read 1959 in her writing." (Is it possible that Madonna gives out different data in an attempt to preserve privacy?)



On 17 September 2013, a forum member reported that Madonna was doing a question and answer on Reddit [5] and someone asked her "Do you believe in Astrology? What is your rising sign? Do you feel more your sun sign or moon sign or rising sign?" and she answered: "I believe in the [science] of astrology. I do not know my rising because you need to know your time of birth, but my moon is in Virgo and I feel equally split down the middle 50% Leo 50% Virgo". With supposedly no knowledge of her time of birth, the chart she describes in the two TV interviews may have possibly been a rectification she received from a professional astrologer.
Starkman rectified to 7.00.24 EST
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Unread 09-05-2020, 04:46 AM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

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It's actually extremely common for actors to have busy twelfth houses. And politicians. And public figures in general.
I'm currently doing research on rising signs and physical appearance and I've looked at about 1200 charts of actors so far and what you are saying here is simply not true. It's all over the place. What you will notice though is that angularity, especially of the lights, will play a key role in terms of rank of fame. And angularity here means close to an angle (within 15 degrees or less), which means planets in cadent houses sometimes count as angular.
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Unread 09-05-2020, 05:05 AM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

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This is interesting but un-expected. You'd think people in the limelight should have a 10th house emphasis.
Famous people tend to have busy angular houses, and based on my research it doesn't really seem to matter if it's the 1st, 4th, 7th or 10th, especially if some key planets are in good dignity. There are also certain planetary combinations for this (called yogas in vedic), so sometimes it's not that apparent at first glance.
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Unread 09-05-2020, 05:44 AM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

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Good point about Madonna!


Strangely enough (what about birth certificates? ) Madonna doesn't seem to know her time of birth and its never been clarified. The one used which puts 4 planets into the 12th house is a rectified chart: Rated D/D because of this unknown factor and guesswork.





https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Madonna




She does appear to have a big heart for the needy and grew her family in this manner - of mixed races - children.



Madonna decided to adopt a young girl from Malawi. On 12 June 2009 the high court of that country granted the request, and the three-year-old girl, named Mercy Chifundo James, was flown to London on June 20th. In February 2017, Madonna adopted four-year old twin sisters from Malawi named Esther and Stella.



Although I never as a habit approve of the rectified guesswork charts, in her case there seems to be some 2nd hand information that might be eventually verifiable?


confirmed by LMR (Lois Rodden) on e-mail with Tashi on 7/24/96: "My girlfriend worked for Madonna in her management office and was on speaking terms with her father. We called him one evening and he called the hospital who looked up the records; it was 7:05 AM. I met Madonna and she is very tuned into meditation (the 12th house), loves the mystical and feels a sense of responsibility to the collective transcendence."



Why with all of this 2nd hand info was the chart still rated a D/D?. Probably because it could have been the same info passed around - especially when once published.


Michigan Rock & Roll Legends, as part of their "Bay City's Madonna Tour" on their website, writes that Madonna "was born in Mercy Hospital at 7:05 a.m. on August 16, 1958, in the Maternity Ward on the 4th floor". "The physician who brought Madonna into this world was Dr. Abraham Jacoby". [1]
An article by Marcie Noonan from Bay-Journal, in 2003, states "Madonna Louise Ciccone was born in Bay City at 7:05 AM on August 16, 1958 at the old Mercy Hospital quite unexpectedly. Her parents... were here visiting relatives when her mother who was pregnant at the time went into labor"



It may be that it's not even the time of day but rather the YEAR that is highly in question?
Erin Sullivan quotes an email from Helen Stillwell (CPA Student) in which she writes, "On 12/16/1998, Channel 4 in London, Madonna was interviewed by [Johnny Vaughan]... She asked him what sign he was....she told him she was a Leo with an 'Aquarius Ascendant.'" He talked about a letter that Madonna had written to him... The cameraman actually showed the hand-written letter... at the top of the letter she had written her name and birth date, August 16, 1959... It read 1959 in her writing." (Is it possible that Madonna gives out different data in an attempt to preserve privacy?)



On 17 September 2013, a forum member reported that Madonna was doing a question and answer on Reddit [5] and someone asked her "Do you believe in Astrology? What is your rising sign? Do you feel more your sun sign or moon sign or rising sign?" and she answered: "I believe in the [science] of astrology. I do not know my rising because you need to know your time of birth, but my moon is in Virgo and I feel equally split down the middle 50% Leo 50% Virgo". With supposedly no knowledge of her time of birth, the chart she describes in the two TV interviews may have possibly been a rectification she received from a professional astrologer.
Starkman rectified to 7.00.24 EST
I don't trust Starkman. I've seen some rather weird rectifications he has done. Not sure what method he is using. But in this case, I am using a similar TOB, because I use sidereal.

And based on her physical appearance, she's a Leo, not a Virgo. Virgo's are tiny, short and have huge heads in comparison to their bodies, the lower body/upper body ratio is about 1:1 (similar to Scorpios). Leos are more of the athletic kind, they are not tall but they are also not short and the lower body/upper body ratio is about 1.15:1 (for Libra it's sometimes 1.35:1). Also, Virgo shoulders are rather narrow, the upper arms rather thin, Leo shoulders are usually broad and the upper arms a bit thick (less thick than Taurus or Scorpio though).

It's best if you look at some bikini pics for actual body shape, clothes can be very deceiving, even swimsuits.

You can narrow her ASC further down by looking at face/decans. But for that you better get some older (pre plastic surgery) pics, and sans makeup. There's the Leo-Aries type, the Leo-Leo type and the Leo-Sagittarius type.

Another very distinctive feature is how they walk, especially where the center of gravity is. Leo's have a sometimes almost regal way of comporting themselves. Virgo's are the opposite, they are more fidgety.

Yet another good clue are the eyes, the look. Virgo eyes are very lively, sparkling. Leo eyes are more calm and fixed.

It's relatively easy when there are no planets in the 1st house or at least no planets close to the ASC. Madonna has Me and Mo close to the ASC though. So she's not going to be the typical Leo, only in terms of core features.

And about the 12th house thing, it very much depends on what house system you are using. If you use switch from Placidus to let's say Vehlow or Whole Sign, planets in the 12th very often move to the 1st.
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Unread 09-05-2020, 06:14 AM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

The cadent houses are the weakest, especially 12 and 6th, and can struggle to realise their potential. Planets here are weakened so it is an area of challenge. If you concentrate on the positive things of the houses it can help strengthen it. Negatives for the 12th house would be self-imposed isolation and escapism tendencies. Positives would be compassion and a spiritual perspective.
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Unread 09-05-2020, 03:37 PM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

Madonna herself, believes she has a Virgo ASC and as she said, she is in her mind anyway, 50% Leo 50% Virgo!


Edgar Cayce taught that the soul can enter the physical body up to 4 hours (approximately and not all the time), either way, i.e. prior to physical birth or even hours later.



For more info on this see the books by the late scientist astrologer, John Willner https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Willner,_John



note: I never fully support a rectified chart.....even those done by Vedic astrologers although I understand the why of them.



Everyone has their own theories when it comes to astrology! I usually respect each person's ways and manner unless harm is done. I also think a certain amount of harm is done when the ego takes over and someone practicing astrology thinks their way is the only way... But yes, Willner (as well as his teacher Edgar Cayce), say to use the Sidereal charts as well as tropical but for different parts of the personality and soul



I've had this book he wrote prior to his death of course for over a decade, but never really read it until now. The ideas he proposed at first, I wasn't ready for, (i.e. progressions as a key), but now I'm being more open to his thoughts as a life long student of Edgar Cayce myself. I'm growing more tolerant I suppose of other's ideas in my senior years This book DOES take patience and a hearing based on tolerance for different ideas.



About the Author Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AWBQKX8...ng=UTF8&btkr=1


JOHN WILLNER, born on April 29,1925, is a retired senior scientist who led state-of-the-art technology projects throughout most of his career. But well before receiving advanced engineering degrees and entering his chosen profession, he became a proficient astrologer. An aunt provided the first astrology books to satisfy his reading interests between 1931 and 1937. Within five years he was doing work on fundamentals and absorbing the profound wisdom of exceptional teachers. Unknown to his peers, he successfully applied astrology to hiring professional employees, making important business decisions, selecting his marriage partner, and assisting other people who were aware of his involvement. Since his retirement, his primary interest has been the advancement of astrology, to return the field to the high level of respect it once held. In pursuit of this goal, he identified critical errors in popular horoscopes, gives proofs of correct methodologies, offers to adepts a mathematically intense computer program that produces exact spiritual birth times, and communicates the unmatched benefits of verified horoscopes that he has enjoyed for close to half a century.

Last edited by leomoon; 09-05-2020 at 03:43 PM.
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  #21  
Unread 09-08-2020, 03:58 AM
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Re: Is there anything good about the 12th house or is it a permanent curse?

12th house Sun and Venus here.

The bad thing about the 12th house is that the stuff that it contains it's not yours. It belongs to the collective.

The Sun enters the 12th house in early morning when the roads and the trains/subways are full. So the 12th house is very public and impersonal. While in the 11th house you know the people by name who you interact with that's not the case in the 12th. Because you interact with the crowd. So the stuff that you have in the 12th house.... You can't control it. There's no possibility of micromanagement cause it's the 6th house. The subway has its own timetable that you can't control but adapt.

You can't force your 12th house stuff to work in your favour. And if you don't force but adapt the collective will offer it for you.
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