I have found the signature for alcoholism

Cypocryphy

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Or at least one/some of them. Feel free to test me with charts of those who may or may not be an alcoholic. I would like to see.

This is a hypothesis at the moment, but if you have any anonymous charts of alcoholics and wouldn't mind posting them on here, then I shall attempt to identify. Please do not reveal whether the person is an alcoholic. It's the only way to test.
 
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waybread

waybread

Well-known member
I don't think there is a single signature for charts of alcoholics. Neptune squaring a personal planet is common; but then many people with such an aspect are not substance abusers, and some people who are substance abusers don't show it.

If you want to look up charts of alcoholics, I recommend the Astro-DataBank at Astrodienst. Many celebrities had this affliction; and the data bank also indicates ordinary citizens with this problem.

What signature have you found?
 
Cypocryphy

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Yeah. Already did that. Looked at a lot. Thanks.

I work with the premise that astrological potentials operate as probabilities. Probable outcomes rather than deterministic. But you have a great probability under certain stellar configurations.

I'm not going to publish it on the forum if I found it. It will either come out in a research journal or a book.

I first of all want to look at a lot more, and second of all, would like to apply it to see if the result is noteworthy.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Cypocryphy said:
I work with the premise that astrological potentials operate as probabilities. Probable outcomes rather than deterministic. But you have a great probability under certain stellar configurations.
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I too follow this same perspective: trends, susceptibilities, likelihoods, but not determinism!
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Here's a test: subject the Marilyn Monroe chart to your method-it is known that she had a significant drinking problem (and, today, she would have been considered an "alcoholic")
 
Cypocryphy

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
dr. farr said:
I too follow this same perspective: trends, susceptibilities, likelihoods, but not determinism!
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Ha ha. :biggrin: Oh yeah. I think just like you. :smile: Experience and my experiments bear that out. That's why I apply statistics. I think astrology is very suitable to statistics, some of it anyway. The trick is to creatively develop experiment models to test some of these astrological "understandings." That is the challenging part.

Speaking of which, I am developing some experiments for some of the hellenistic work. I'll share it with you when something noteworthy occurs. :happy:
 
Cypocryphy

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
dr. farr said:
Here's a test: subject the Marilyn Monroe chart to your method-it is known that she had a significant drinking problem (and, today, she would have been considered an "alcoholic")
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Okay . . . I looked and she doesn't really have those key astrological configurations. As of now, I am truly only operating under a hypothesis, but if I were to apply that hypothesis to her chart, I would say that she is not an alcoholic, which (1) may mean she wasn't or (2) she's an anomaly or operates under a different signature or (3) this needs to be further refined.

Speaking of which, I think I might be able to download the Gauquelin database. Have you done that?

(Just looked up Marylin. Clearly used alcohol a lot, so point (1) is clearly not it.)
 
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Cypocryphy

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Dr. Farr. I'm going to PM you something that you'll find very interesting, and it will give you a hint on where I am going.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Marilyn Monroe was a very special "case", in many ways-so perhaps she might have been an anomaly or under a different signature.

No I have not looked at the Gauquelin database-mostly I have used charts of people wh have come to me for homeopathic therapeutics, also the astro-databank somewhat; actually though, most of what might be termed my "research" has been along astro therapeutic (ie medical astrology) lines, and a special area of mine (avocationally) has been with disaster charts (rather than personal natal charts)
 
Cypocryphy

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
dr. farr said:
Marilyn Monroe was a very special "case", in many ways-so perhaps she might have been an anomaly or under a different signature.

No I have not looked at the Gauquelin database-mostly I have used charts of people wh have come to me for homeopathic therapeutics, also the astro-databank somewhat; actually though, most of what might be termed my "research" has been along astro therapeutic (ie medical astrology) lines, and a special area of mine (avocationally) has been with disaster charts (rather than personal natal charts)
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Oh yes! A lot of your work with the lunar nodes. I remember. I hope one day you publish that. I would certainly buy it!! :happy:
 
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Ebenia

Well-known member
Here is a chart of an alcoholic. :) Feel free to interpret.
 

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greybeard

Well-known member
Ebenia...
My bet is that the chart you posted blows Cypocryphy's signatures out of the water. I would venture to say that none of those signatures appears in this chart.

But look who is singleton by hemisphere, the exactly-centered handle of a striking bucket pattern..."ruthlessness", opposing Jupiter (emotional responses blown out of all proportion, and Jupiter rules 12th) along the meridian axis, and partile square the Asc; also trine Saturn (who stands on the 6-12 axis and is lord of the horoscope) and quincunx her lord Mars. She (Moon) absolutely dominates the chart [The "emotional nature" -- as described by the chart in detail -- dominates the personality and life].

We also find Mercury in Virgo (who rules 6th and is very weakly aspected) disposing all planets but Sun (using 7 planets) -- who is in the 8th and independent, sesquicuadrate Moon.

These are the factors in this chart that, to my mind, are principal indicators of alcoholism.

We could add the octile of Mercury and Uranus in 8th as corroborative. The aspect is indicative of "friction" and involves the 8th.

[P.S.: Saturn/Uranus=Moon is said by Ebertin to suggest "Strong emotional tensions and strains, states of depression. Inconstancy. The sudden desire to liberate oneself from emotional stress...." and Moon holds an exceptionally strong predominance in this chart, and this midpoint formation provides the structural basis for the whole chart -- and comes to focus on the IC. There is a strong emphasis on "ego" (self-centeredness) in the chart, with the predominant Moon in Aries and the whole chart structured on the grand trine in Fire and both Lights in that Element, to which is added a preponderance of Fire.]
 
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waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Ebenia, I brought up the Neptune squaring a personal planet as a "quick and dirty" guide, with the caveats I posted above.

There are at least two other types of alcoholics. One are people with a fairly painful chart. Life hurts. Alcohol is a form of self medication. I think this person's chart falls into this category. You've got that 8th house sun-Pluto-Mars in Leo with a Saturn square to Mars-Pluto. This person's ego takes a beating. But Neptune and the moon (traditional ruler of alcohol) offer some relief.

Another type of alcoholic or drug addict has a chart showing s/he is headed for some very underworld experiences, and substance abuse is a quick ticket to get there.

But there are always wild cards in astrological signatures. Sometimes people drink out of boredom, to be one of the guys in a drinking culture, &c.
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
greybeard said:
Ebenia...
My bet is that the chart you posted blows Cypocryphy's signatures out of the water. I would venture to say that none of those signatures appears in this chart.
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I'd agree with that :smile:. Yet there are occasions and charts that prove the exception to the rule.

But look who is singleton by hemisphere, the exactly-centered handle of a striking bucket pattern..."ruthlessness", opposing Jupiter (emotional responses blown out of all proportion, and Jupiter rules 12th) along the meridian axis, and partile square the Asc; also trine Saturn (who stands on the 6-12 axis and is lord of the horoscope) and quincunx her lord Mars. She (Moon) absolutely dominates the chart [The "emotional nature" -- as described by the chart in detail -- dominates the personality and life].
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Like Waybread, I would look to Neptune ('spirit' in whichever way one interprets its meaning) regarding alcohol issues; too often in a harsh aspect with either Mars or Saturn, as ego/self esteem problems. Yet Neptune's function isn't recognised in traditional techniques.
Are you saying that, traditionally speaking, Moon-Jupiter is the equivalent of a Neptune issue OR, that Jupiter alone, as ruler Pisces, is the planet associated with alcoholism?

The chart is Equal House because of high latitude. Although Saturn is chart ruler, it may not be conjunct 12th-6th house axis in other house systems.
Traditionally, is its importance therefore judged as chart ruler only?

We also find Mercury in Virgo (who rules 6th and is very weakly aspected) disposing all planets but Sun (using 7 planets) -- who is in the 8th and independent, sesquicuadrate Moon.

These are the factors in this chart that, to my mind, are principal indicators of alcoholism.
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Yet would/could you have made the same judgement had you not known beforehand that the chart was that of an alcoholic? Not all emotionally reactive people grab for the bottle.

Ebenia:
Saturn, as ruler Asc., in Sag. is on a heart degree. Does Mars square Saturn refer to blood pressure/clots issues that could lead to the Leo heart problems?? Or any chronic disorder (e.g.muscle) that affects agility and mobility (mutable sign emphasis). A heavy drinker might also see the issues with Virgo arise....intestinal area, pancreas;
Mercury, as probable ruler 6th house, does not make any harsh aspects that might be associated with any physical disorder.

Just curious for learning purposes.:smile:
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Cypocryphy

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Ebenia said:
Here is a chart of an alcoholic. :) Feel free to interpret.
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Interesting chart. This is an unusual chart since it is at such a high longitude. I would like you to keep this chart up here, if that is alright. (And thank you for posting it.) I would like to come back to this at a later point.

Would I say that this chart is the chart of an alcoholic? I would say it is definitely possible, and I would say that it has nothing to do with Neptune. I will PM you, if that is okay, but I must do so at a later point because I am too tired at the moment, and I would like a clear head and mind before I say anything about the chart of someone whom I imagine you have a personal relationship with.

As to further insights about alcoholism, further work needs to be conducted, but I definitely see that I am on to something. If only there were grants for this kind of work, then it would be so much easier and quicker. :smile:
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
My answer to Frisiangal is yes, I would have seen the potential.

The Moon is so powerful in the chart....and all the personal characteristics I cited, plus things I didn't say, show the strong possibility of dependence of some sort.

What makes for an alcoholic? Having been a member in good standing of Bill W.'s gang, I am familiar with typical personality traits, and these are shown in spades in this chart.

We must remember that not only Neptune, but in fact most of the other planets can be signals for alcoholism. Moon, Venus, Mars... Before 1850 there was no Neptune, but there were alcoholics.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
I can't say for certain if I would have diagnosed alcoholism (per se) from this chart-however I definitely would have noticed some significant indications for "problems of excess" here, and a significant likely psychological motivation at the root of such potential problems:
-the primary "significator" for excess-Jupiter, is high in the chart (placed highly)and is squared by the ascending degree (so-"excess" Jupiter is in conflict with the personality and bodily health, signified by the ascending degree) and is also opposed by the Moon
-Moon is in partile square to the ascending degree: an important disruptive aspect (mind/emotions signficator Moon in conflict with personality and overall bodily health-ie, ascending degree/1st house)
-the qualities (positive and negative) of Scorpio are amplified by positing the North Node; also the significance of Neptune for this person (again, both positive and negative quality potentials) is also magnified because Neptune shares this sign(Scorpio) with the North Node (is sign conjunct the North Node); the qualities of Taurus (which can include self-indulgence) are at least somewhat vitiated by the South Node positing that sign
-5 planets (including Moon and Sun) posit fiery signs, with only 1 planet (Neptune) in water: could indicate a "burning" quality, with no offset by elemental water, which perhaps could be an indicator of a kind of "thirst" as basic to the astrological/elemental constitution of this person
-the most elevated point of the chart, the MC-in NN amplified Scorpio-applies to a close square to 8th house Pluto: certainly indicative of deep, hidden potential disruptive tendencies possibly affecting the "fate" of the person (oldtime astrology considered the MC to be indicative of the "fate" of the individual)
-some disruptive stars are connected with elements of this chart: the ascending degree conjuncts the nebula Facies; the dispositor of the rising sign (and also the monomoiria ruler of the ascending degree), 12th house placed Saturn, is conjunct Han and (probably) Antares; the Moon is conjunct Algenib; and potential "excess" significator, Jupiter, through its conjunction with the star Nodus I, is thereby connected with influences from the constellation, Draco (for indications of these stars and their connections, see for example, entries @ constellationsofwords.com)...
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
greybeard said:
My answer to Frisiangal is yes, I would have seen the potential.

The Moon is so powerful in the chart....and all the personal characteristics I cited, plus things I didn't say, show the strong possibility of dependence of some sort.
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Thank you, Greybeard. The Moon dependence issue is strong.
My questions were asked seriously.
Too old to want to venture fully and deeply into the methodology of traditional techniques, yet I'm becoming more aware of its value and assets in interpretation.
Must be tr. Saturn through Scorpio.:smile:

We must remember that not only Neptune, but in fact most of the other planets can be signals for alcoholism. Moon, Venus, Mars... Before 1850 there was no Neptune, but there were alcoholics.
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Just because it couldn't be seen with the naked eye didn't mean it wasn't there to exert its influence upon mankind as a whole.:wink:
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Ebenia

Well-known member
Thank you for all of your comments. Very interesting comments.

Few things that come to my mind about your posts
- This person is VERY emotional. She gets emotional about everything and she lives life through emotion, both good and in bad. She gets emotional about other peoples things and does blame her self for things, but is unwilling to go very deep in things - this person is not very "insightful" into deeper psychological processes or anything like that but connects to the depths of life only from emotional perspective, not mental
- Kept a good job for many many years until was laid off because of alcoholism
- Has been drinking for 15 years, with worse and better times in between but never sober
- Has never admitted having a problem with drinking
- Unwilling to go to treatment
- Marriage was destroyed because of drinking (there were other problems before that that might have "lead" to drinking)
- Health has been pretty good and has only been in hospital once because of excessive drinking in the summer
- Once fell while was drunk and broke her shoulder and had a surgery on it
- Bloodpressure problems to some extent but not massive (mostly due with alcoholism and weight gain)
- Mostly very healthy and strong body, no flues or infections
- Main personality very loving and gentle but under the influence can be harsh and unsophisticated
- Not aggressive whilst drunk, but drinks to the point of being unconscious
- Can be very critical towards other people at times

Even though this person is definitely an alcoholic, there are parts to their personality that are whole and very loving. Very generous and a people-person. A strong need to be liked.
 
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miquar

miquar

Well-known member
Hi. I think that the tension between Saturn and Neptune is the core astrological signification of alcoholism. Obviously this can show up in many ways and needn't involve a Saturn Neptune aspect. Where Neptune is strong in a chart (including by rulership) the native can struggle to meet the corporeal world on its own, seemingly harsh and demanding, terms. This can lead to a retreat from life through something like alcohol, whether or not Saturn is also strong in the chart. These views aren't grounded in going over loads of charts of people suffering from alcoholism. But they are based partly on reflection on some actual cases, including people known to me personally.
 
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