By Sign Or By Orb?

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Here is a quote from you, upthread:

"Think beyond those random lines and consider that the sign energies are much more important and have a real logic to them, which gives an astrologer a fundament to work with. Since Taurus and Cancerian energies trine each other, earth and water like each other to put it in simple language, planets in these signs cannot square each other."
__________________

Here^^^ is what I fundamentally disagree with. You say, very clearly and absolutely, that 'planets in Taurus and Cancer CANNOT square each other.'


The problem is, that is NOT TRUE.
A planet in Taurus can and does square a planet in Cancer
whenever they reach an orb near 90 degrees arc. It happens quite often.

So that is a false statement, that 2 planets in those signs cannot be in a square aspect. The definition of a square is a mathematical one.

Now you may have philosophical or theoretical differences with that definition, but it does not change the facts.

I totally understand your argument that Taurus and Cancer
are sympathetic elements, not USUALLY in squaring aspects.
So a square between them will work differently from a Fire/Earth square would.

And we can discuss that and agree upon that.

But I have a problem with the cut and dry
absolute denial that the square aspect even exists.
That is problematic to me, perhaps
because it is indicative of other aspects of traditional theories.
It's not difficult
As has alrealdy been explained
Taurus and Cancer CANNOT SQUARE BY SIGN :smile:

HOWEVER
obviously

planets in Cancer and Taurus may be in SQUARE BY DEGREE
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
YES.

Our zodiac isn't perfect. I mean honestly, are the astrological heavens really divided perfectly in 12 signs???

Like that just doesn't make sense. We like to think it does, but it doesn't.

I have Moon and Mercury conjunct. In traditional astrology they aren't conjunct because my merc is in leo and my moon is in virgo. But vedic astrology they are conjunct.

In my opinion, the zodiac signs blend into one another.

I also think the out-of-sign aspects work a bit differently.
They're totally there, the energies just have different ways of coming out.
That is an excellent example :smile:
of two planets that are NOT CONJUNCT BY SIGN
when USING TROPICAL astrology

and yet
those same two planets ARE CONJUNCT BY SIGN
when USING SIDEREAL astrology
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Fine idea.
And yes, I am being absolute
when I say the definition of aspects is based upon mathematical concepts.
So it is pretty absolute.
Two planets in 90 arc are going to be squaring each other.
That is an 'absolute' concept.

the word ASPECT is defined as: a particular status
or phase
in which something appears or may be REGARDED
a position FACING a particular direction
and
is derived from from Latin aspectus, from aspicere to look at
from ad- + specere to look


FURTHERMORE

Since aspectus in Latin means "looked at"
an aspect of something
is basically
the direction from which it's looked at.
The word can be very useful
when analyzing something

and it's used a great deal in the writings of scholars.
So when someone says those two planets 'are not in a square'
--I am going to object, based upon a mathematical definition. :rightful:

If one says that an out of sign square is going to work differently, I will agree and discuss.

But to say that the square 'does not exist'---that is what bothers me.
One requires the awareness that
for Taurus and Cancer A SQUARE BY SIGN DOES NOT EXIST :smile:
even if it does exist MATHEMATICALLY as a SQUARE BY DEGREE
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I will say though that when it comes to
the slow moving inners
(Jupiter, but much more so Saturn)
Astrologically
the Personal planets include SUN, MOON, MERCURY, VENUS, and MARS.
These are the bodies whose orbits are closest to that of the Earth
Incidentally
traditionally Jupiter and Saturn are outer planets :smile:
 
I also have Moon & Mars Square Saturn.
So truly Sun square Mars & Mars square Saturn are Trines?

Cancer - Taurus
Taurus - Cap.


Chart.

https://ibb.co/n2Fdc6

Orb facter is 125% so it shows some weaker aspects too.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member

I also have Mars Square Saturn.
So truly Sun square Mars & Mars square Saturn are Trines?

Cancer - Taurus
Taurus - Cap.


Chart.

https://ibb.co/n2Fdc6

Orb facter is 125% so it shows some weaker aspects too.
Interestingly,
Taurus and Cancer are sextile BY SIGN
Taurus and Capricorn are trine BY SIGN
and so
the aspects by degree
are dependent on the degree distances between the planet
s in question :smile:
 
Interestingly,
Taurus and Cancer are sextile BY SIGN
Taurus and Capricorn are trine BY SIGN
and so
the aspects by degree
are dependent on the degree distances between the planet
s in question :smile:

Are these squares considered a normal square?
Same element or compatible squares work the same as a traditional square?


Chart attached above.
 
Yes, I know it is a comment from another thread. I posted it because she is accusing me of putting others down for not agreeing with me. And of not 'leading by example.' And yet earlier today, she is doing just that herself in another thread.

I think it is very rude what was being said about modern astrologers here.

Agree. I don't follow any but look at all besides Vedic the most.

I mostly use Modern mind you.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

However, a square by sign DOES exist,
if those planets are placed at the end and beginning of the said signs.
That is my point.
On the contrary
that is a misunderstanding of the term TRINE BY SIGN :smile:
because
even when planets are TRINE BY SIGN
those planets MAY simultaneously SQUARE BY DEGREE
DEPENDENT ON
THE PRECISE NUMBER OF DEGREES that are SEPARATING THOSE TWO PLANETS

To say those signs cannot be in square aspect
is inaccurate by definition of the term 'square.'
Not at all
as is quite obvious
when one considers
that aspects by SIGN
differ from spects by DEGREE
 

katydid

Well-known member
Interesting info I just saw on sky script, regarding 'out of sign' aspects:

According to Debra Houlding, http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html



"In practice most traditional astrologers did allow an aspect which crossed the boundaries of the signs where it was close to exactness by degree. Also, even in the classical period, many texts remind the student that reckoning aspects by sign alone will not necessarily maintain the philosophy of the shapes, and that it is more correct to consider the actual degrees."


And that is exactly the point I have repeatedly tried to make. The 'shape' of the aspects, the geometric patterns, are vital to the chart itself.

One reason is that transits follow the geometric aspects as well. So if two planets are in natal square by degree, then they will be in transiting square by degree as well. Saturn transiting at late Cancer squares a Moon in very early Scorpio, it is not trining it.
 

wilsontc

Staff member
Stop attacking, to All

All,

Please stop attacking each other. I have heavily edited the posts to focus the discussion and eliminate attacks. Focus on the PROBLEM and not the PERSON, If you find you can NOT get along with a person use the Ignore function.

There is Uranian astrology that uses aspect degrees only, Traditional astrology which often uses the signs only, and other astrological methods that use a combination of the two methods. This is a discussion NOT a decision on which method is superior.

Back to civil astrology,

Tim
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
As has alrealdy been explained
Taurus and Cancer CANNOT SQUARE BY SIGN

HOWEVER
obviously

planets in Cancer and Taurus may be in SQUARE BY DEGREE

Taurus and Cancer may be in signs that complement each other (where does TRINE come from with 60* difference?:confused:). Is it that the traditional viewpoint takes a sign in its purest form? No account is take into any effect of other elements, e.g heat and air, that add an influence to this 'pure'form. Consequently Water nourishes the 'pliable' soil and Earth 'dams' the flow of water?

I'm a keen gardener and live in a temperate climate. The gentle rain from heaven is truly appreciated by the soil that, together, allow Arian seeds to germinate and grow.

Yet, if there has been a particularly dry period, the soil becomes hard and cracks. Water isn't absorbed by the 'pliable' Earth; it can't get through it, but floods over it. If there is too much water, the pliable soil becomes so muddy that it's not possible to build a dam.

I think the same can be said of people's temperamental natures.
It may not happen often, yet from that point of view, someone with a planet in the beginning of Taurus and a planet at the end of Cancer could well experience difficulty between applying fact to feeling and vice versa, instead of blending the two as per intent. Each works independently if 'out of sign' is not taken as being within orb of a square.
The nature of the signs then act problematic instead of in ease.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Taurus and Cancer may be in signs that complement each other

(where does TRINE come from with 60* difference?:confused:).
TRINE relates to the following comment :smile:
and I quote
i.e.


I also have Mars Square Saturn.

So truly Sun square Mars & Mars square Saturn are Trines
?


Cancer - Taurus


Taurus - Cap
.


Chart.
https://ibb.co/n2Fdc6
Orb facter is 125% so it shows some weaker aspects too.
Interestingly,
Taurus and Cancer are sextile BY SIGN
Taurus and Capricorn are trine BY SIGN
and so
the aspects by degree
are dependent on the degree distances between the planet
s in question :smile:

Is it that the traditional viewpoint takes a sign in its purest form? No account is take into any effect of other elements, e.g heat and air, that add an influence to this 'pure'form. Consequently Water nourishes the 'pliable' soil and Earth 'dams' the flow of water?

I'm a keen gardener and live in a temperate climate. The gentle rain from heaven is truly appreciated by the soil that, together, allow Arian seeds to germinate and grow.

Yet, if there has been a particularly dry period, the soil becomes hard and cracks. Water isn't absorbed by the 'pliable' Earth; it can't get through it, but floods over it. If there is too much water, the pliable soil becomes so muddy that it's not possible to build a dam.

I think the same can be said of people's temperamental natures.
It may not happen often, yet from that point of view, someone with a planet in the beginning of Taurus and a planet at the end of Cancer could well experience difficulty between applying fact to feeling and vice versa, instead of blending the two as per intent. Each works independently if 'out of sign' is not taken as being within orb of a square.
The nature of the signs then act problematic instead of in ease.
 

Humanitarian

Well-known member
If that aspect is out of sign, I use an orb of 5 degrees, because the aspect isn't strong enough (because out of sign) to be allowed a wide orb, and I mix that aspect with the aspect by sign also (modern approach), If I use the trad approach, I use sign aspects, especially when that native doesn't have a lot of Ptolemaic aspects between traditional planets.
 
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