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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 07-25-2016, 02:28 AM
AJ Astrology AJ Astrology is offline
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Besieged

Hi all,

[deleted attacking comment directed at entire forum~moderator] can anyone say in the chart below if Moon is besieged by Mars and Saturn?

If not, why not?

Does Venus break the siege by casting her rays around Moon?

If not, why not?



Last edited by tsmall; 07-25-2016 at 03:06 AM.
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Unread 07-25-2016, 02:39 AM
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Re: Besieged

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Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Without injuring yourselves
Have you tried the search function? There's plenty of threads that discuss the phenomenon of the Moon being Besieged. Or do you just want to waste everyones time... for free? Maybe you'd care to first describe what you have learned about the condition so far?

ETA: My word! There is a search engine named "Google" that you may wish to consider in your search. It shows quite a few results for a Besieged Moon!

No thanks necessary! I am happy to accommodate you! And, all for free!

Last edited by StillOne; 07-25-2016 at 02:44 AM.
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Unread 07-25-2016, 02:49 AM
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Re: Besieged

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Originally Posted by StillOne View Post

Have you tried the search function?
There's plenty of threads that discuss the phenomenon of the Moon being Besieged.
Or do you just want to waste everyones time... for free?
Maybe you'd care to first describe what you have learned about the condition so far?


ETA: My word! There is a search engine named "Google" that you may wish to consider in your search.
It shows quite a few results for a Besieged Moon!


No thanks necessary!
I am happy to accommodate you! And, all for free!

I agree that a pervasive attitude of entitlement is evident from the OP comment
lets have their opinion on the topic
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Unread 07-25-2016, 02:53 AM
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Re: Besieged

I hope the OP wasn't injured in coming up with that question.
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Unread 07-25-2016, 03:05 AM
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Re: Besieged

I'm not too experienced in this matter, but I think that the beseiged planet must directly apply to and separate from the malefics. If this is so, then Moon is not besieged because it applies first not only to Venus, as you note, but also to Mercury, before it meets Saturn.
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Unread 07-25-2016, 03:10 AM
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Re: Besieged

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post

I'm not too experienced in this matter,
but I think that the beseiged planet must directly apply to and separate from the malefics.
If this is so, then Moon is not besieged
because it applies first not only to Venus,
as you note, but also to Mercury, before it meets Saturn.
I'm no expert either and I recommend the OP to Benjamin Dyjkes excellent guide
INTRODUCTIONS TO TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY
http://www.bendykes.com/ita.php
in which besiegement is discussed in detail
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Unread 07-25-2016, 03:20 AM
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Re: Besieged

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I'm no expert either and I recommend the OP to Benjamin Dyjkes excellent guide
INTRODUCTIONS TO TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY
http://www.bendykes.com/ita.php
in which besiegement is discussed in detail
Thank you for the reference, JA.

As I read Dykes, it looks like it may also not be a case of besiegement because Mars is in the sign adjacent to Moon, so averse by sign. If I read correctly, Mars would need to be in the sign of Sagittarius as well.

Is that your take on it as well?
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Unread 07-25-2016, 04:02 AM
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Re: Besieged

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post

Thank you for the reference, JA.

As I read Dykes, it looks like it may also not be a case of besiegement because Mars is in the sign adjacent to Moon, so averse by sign.
If I read correctly, Mars would need to be in the sign of Sagittarius as well.

Is that your take on it as well?

Benjamin Dykes is a well respected astrologer
and in order to avoid any misinterpretation or misunderstanding of their reliable guidance
I recommend the OP obtain a copy of
INTRODUCTIONS TO TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY http://www.bendykes.com/ita.php
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Unread 07-25-2016, 04:11 AM
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Re: Besieged

Dykes seems pretty straight forward in this matter. How do you understand his comments on enclosure?
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Unread 07-25-2016, 04:53 AM
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Re: Besieged

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post

Dykes seems pretty straight forward in this matter.
How do you understand his comments on enclosure?

If your judgement is that Dykes is straightforward in this matter then fine
perhaps the OP would like to check for themselves
INTRODUCTIONS TO TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY http://www.bendykes.com/ita.php
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Unread 07-25-2016, 06:14 AM
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Re: Besieged

Moon is not beseiged.
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  #12  
Unread 07-27-2016, 06:00 AM
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Re: Besieged

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
I'm not too experienced in this matter, but I think that the beseiged planet must directly apply to and separate from the malefics. If this is so, then Moon is not besieged because it applies first not only to Venus, as you note, but also to Mercury, before it meets Saturn.
Hi IleneK,

I find it confusing, because I don't know if we should look solely at the rays of the malefics and their orbs, or if we take into consideration the orb for the besieged planet as it separates from a malefic and applies to malefic.

I think I found a chart with a besieged planet.




If I'm reading this right, then Libra Moon at 17 degrees is besieged by squares from Cancer Mars and Saturn.



Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
Thank you for the reference, JA.

As I read Dykes, it looks like it may also not be a case of besiegement because Mars is in the sign adjacent to Moon, so averse by sign. If I read correctly, Mars would need to be in the sign of Sagittarius as well.

Is that your take on it as well?
Except that Moon is separating from a conjunction with Mars and a conjunction is not an aspect. A planet is combust the Sun even when out of sign, right? Shouldn't a conjunction be able to be out of sign?
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Unread 07-27-2016, 03:36 PM
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Re: Besieged

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi IleneK,

I find it confusing, because I don't know if we should look solely at the rays of the malefics and their orbs, or if we take into consideration the orb for the besieged planet as it separates from a malefic and applies to malefic.

...



Except that Moon is separating from a conjunction with Mars and a conjunction is not an aspect. A planet is combust the Sun even when out of sign, right? Shouldn't a conjunction be able to be out of sign?
Sorry, but too much effort to sort through what seems to be your confusion. Check out Dykes and see if it helps.
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Unread 07-27-2016, 09:03 PM
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Re: Besieged

are there charts/histories of besieged planets overcoming the front and back? i'm sure there are - and i would love to see them and discussed.

besieged is like being backed into a corner, right? like my husband who was once confronted by 4 dudes in an alley for knocking out their friend - and he told me pulled his knife and said who wants to come with me? and he ended up okay. the strength of the besieged planet - in all it's long rays depends on the angel planets that see them through.
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Unread 07-28-2016, 12:40 AM
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Re: Besieged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitchy View Post

are there charts/histories of besieged planets overcoming the front and back? i'm sure there are - and i would love to see them and discussed.

besieged is like being backed into a corner, right? like my husband who was once confronted by 4 dudes in an alley for knocking out their friend - and he told me pulled his knife and said who wants to come with me? and he ended up okay. the strength of the besieged planet - in all it's long rays depends on the angel planets that see them through.
Bonatus describes a besieged planet as one that separates from a malefic and applies to another.
It shows a situation that is going from bad to worse.

William Lilly described a planet besieged
as one that lies between the bodies of the two malefics Mars and Saturn.
His example is Mars at 10 Aries, Venus 13 Aries, and Saturn 15 Aries.
It is generally accepted that besiegement can occur by aspect as well as bodily conjunction.
As a principle it refers to a planet trapped by hostile forces on either side
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/beseiged.html
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Unread 07-28-2016, 12:53 AM
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Re: Besieged

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Bonatus describes a besieged planet as one that separates from a malefic and applies to another.
It shows a situation that is going from bad to worse.

William Lilly described a planet besieged
as one that lies between the bodies of the two malefics Mars and Saturn.
His example is Mars at 10 Aries, Venus 13 Aries, and Saturn 15 Aries.
It is generally accepted that besiegement can occur by aspect as well as bodily conjunction.
As a principle it refers to a planet trapped by hostile forces on either side
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/beseiged.html
I wonder please if you or other members might clarify for me:

if Moon at 21 Leo
separates from Saturn at 16 Leo and
applies to Mars as 28 Leo,
but not before squaring Sun at 24 Taurus,

is this Moon beseiged?
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Unread 07-28-2016, 12:57 AM
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Re: Besieged

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post

I wonder please if you or other members might clarify for me:

if Moon at 21 Leo
separates from Saturn at 16 Leo and
applies to Mars as 28 Leo,
but not before squaring Sun at 24 Taurus,

is this Moon beseiged?

Chart to view would be useful
and also useful if you would state your opinion on the matter for discussion
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Unread 07-28-2016, 01:05 AM
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Re: Besieged

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Chart to view would be useful
and also useful if you would state your opinion on the matter for discussion
I'm not sure if it is beseiged, hence the posted question.
I thought it might be until I saw the intervening aspect and now I am not sure.

It is an example, like you used in your post "His example is Mars at 10 Aries, Venus 13 Aries, and Saturn 15 Aries." and hardly complicated to imagine since all bodies are in the same sign, except for the Sun. If seeing a chart is required for you to answer, please feel free to pass.
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Unread 07-28-2016, 01:13 AM
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Re: Besieged

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post

I'm not sure if it is beseiged, hence the posted question.
I thought it might be until I saw the intervening aspect and now I am not sure.

It is an example, like you used in your post
"His example is Mars at 10 Aries, Venus 13 Aries, and Saturn 15 Aries."
and hardly complicated to imagine since all bodies are all in the same sign, except for the Sun.
If seeing a chart is required for you to answer, please feel free to pass.

That's an example William Lilly gives that I quoted

i.e.
The definitions I stated and/or quoted
are
from Bonatti

and also

William Lilly

that's why a chart is useful to study as it provides a clear base for discussion
but its your choice

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Unread 07-28-2016, 02:19 AM
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Re: Besieged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitchy View Post
are there charts/histories of besieged planets overcoming the front and back? i'm sure there are - and i would love to see them and discussed.

besieged is like being backed into a corner, right? like my husband who was once confronted by 4 dudes in an alley for knocking out their friend - and he told me pulled his knife and said who wants to come with me? and he ended up okay. the strength of the besieged planet - in all it's long rays depends on the angel planets that see them through.
Hi Kitchy,

A besieged planet is under attack by the malefics. If you look at Karen Silkwood's chart above, her Moon ruled H10, and her character and reputation were constantly attacked by her employer and others, until she died in car wreck that was caused by someone.

Jimmy Hoffa is another who had a besieged Moon in H4 ruling H6. I don't know about his health specifically, but he ended up disappearing, and no one has found his body.

So those two weren't able to overcome their besieged planets, but we'd have to look at other charts to see what happened to other people.
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Unread 07-28-2016, 03:40 AM
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Re: Besieged

Is this beseiged?

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Unread 07-28-2016, 03:55 AM
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Re: Besieged

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
I wonder please if you or other members might clarify for me:

if Moon at 21 Leo
separates from Saturn at 16 Leo and
applies to Mars as 28 Leo,
but not before squaring Sun at 24 Taurus,

is this Moon beseiged?
No. The Sun is breaking the enclosure with its ray.
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Unread 07-28-2016, 02:23 PM
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Re: Besieged

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
No. The Sun is breaking the enclosure with its ray.
Thank you, my friend.
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