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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 04-06-2018, 03:17 AM
Ada Ada is offline
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My Finance & Career Issues From A Traditional Perspective

Hi all,
I am a newcomer to astrology and am interested to learn the traditional way of delineation or reading my natal chart.

Thank you all.


http://imgur.com/NKMTtNi


Last edited by Ada; 04-06-2018 at 03:24 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 04-06-2018, 06:28 PM
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Re: My Finance & Career Issues From A Traditional Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ada View Post
Hi all,
I am a newcomer to astrology
and am interested to learn the traditional way of delineation
or reading my natal chart.
Thank you all.

http://imgur.com/NKMTtNi
There are a number of traditional schools of thought
One is HELLENISTIC
An Hellenistic astrologer would commence with a "Preliminary natal analysis"
which consists of judging whether:

(a) a planet is able
and/or planets are able
- and/or unable
- to conduct their business
and/or businesses

as well as

(b) whether the natal planets are favorable
or unfavorable
to the native.


These are basics of Hellenistic analysis from Valens
as translated by Robert Schmidt
http://projecthindsight.com/index1.html

To find conditions relevant to the fitness
and/or
ability
of a planet to conduct its business
commence with assessing conditions that are relative to the horizon
so:

we decide whether the chart is a Day Chart
or a Night Chart
Sun alone determines Day and Night
Sun in this chart is well above horizon and clearly the chart is a Day Chart


also

If a planet is in an angular or succedent Whole Sign house
then the planet is in a place conducive to the conduct of its business.
Angular Houses = 1,4,7,10: Succedent Houses = 2,5,8.11


If a planet remains angular when using dynamic house system such as Porphyry
then the planet is said to be 'goaded' towards more activity.


If a planet is in a cadent Whole Sign house
then the planet is in a place that is not conducive to the conduct of its business.
Cadent Houses = 3,6,9,12


If a benefic planet is in a cadent house
the beneficence of the planet is turned away from the native
(or native’s agenda).


If a malefic planet is in a cadent house
the malevolence of the planet is turned away from the native
(or the native's agenda).
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  #3  
Unread 04-07-2018, 05:21 AM
Ada Ada is offline
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Re: My Finance & Career Issues From A Traditional Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
There are a number of traditional schools of thought
One is HELLENISTIC
An Hellenistic astrologer would commence with a "Preliminary natal analysis"
which consists of judging whether:

(a) a planet is able
and/or planets are able
- and/or unable
- to conduct their business
and/or businesses

as well as

(b) whether the natal planets are favorable
or unfavorable
to the native.


These are basics of Hellenistic analysis from Valens
as translated by Robert Schmidt
http://projecthindsight.com/index1.html

To find conditions relevant to the fitness
and/or
ability
of a planet to conduct its business
commence with assessing conditions that are relative to the horizon
so:

we decide whether the chart is a Day Chart
or a Night Chart
Sun alone determines Day and Night
Sun in this chart is well above horizon and clearly the chart is a Day Chart


also

If a planet is in an angular or succedent Whole Sign house
then the planet is in a place conducive to the conduct of its business.
Angular Houses = 1,4,7,10: Succedent Houses = 2,5,8.11


If a planet remains angular when using dynamic house system such as Porphyry
then the planet is said to be 'goaded' towards more activity.


If a planet is in a cadent Whole Sign house
then the planet is in a place that is not conducive to the conduct of its business.
Cadent Houses = 3,6,9,12


If a benefic planet is in a cadent house
the beneficence of the planet is turned away from the native
(or native’s agenda).


If a malefic planet is in a cadent house
the malevolence of the planet is turned away from the native
(or the native's agenda).
Thank you for the rhetorical explanation Jupiter
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Unread 04-07-2018, 05:35 AM
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Re: My Finance & Career Issues From A Traditional Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ada View Post

Thank you for the rhetorical explanation Jupiter
Glad to be of service - thank you for the rhetorical response
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  #5  
Unread 04-07-2018, 12:10 PM
Ada Ada is offline
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Re: My Finance & Career Issues From A Traditional Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Glad to be of service - thank you for the rhetorical response
Ahahah, auto correct can be fun, a good example
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Unread 04-08-2018, 01:13 PM
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Re: My Finance & Career Issues From A Traditional Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ada View Post

Ahahah, auto correct can be fun, a good example
06-06-2011, 02:21 AM
BobZemco
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Re: A natives wealth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar
It's my understanding that traditional astrology centers on physical matters and modern with non ie. the mind. Having said that, I would like an understanding in traditionalist ways.

How do we delineate wealth in a horoscope?
Is it possible to find where the wealth will be made?
How about the timing or loss?

Where could I find this information?


There are three main lines of thinking.

Ptolemy uses the Lot of Fortune, the Almuten of the Lot Fortune and any Planets that aspect the Almuten of the Lot of Fortune. The Almuten of anything is simply that Planet that has the greatest amount of Dignity at a particular point on the chart.

33°24' is the same as 3° Taurus 24'. Venus is the Sign Ruler and Term Ruler, while Moon is the Exaltation Ruler. In a Day Chart, Venus would be the Sect Triplicity Ruler, so Venus has the greatest Dignity in that point. However, in a Night Chart, Moon is the Sect Ruler of Earth Signs and so Venus and Moon would each have two dignities.

In that case, which one, Moon or Venus aspects that point? The one that does is the Almuten. If neither aspect it, or they are equally close in aspect, then take the one that is in the correct facing, and if neither are, then take the one that is closer in degrees.

Sometimes you have multiple points, like the Almuten of Marriage. That is the Planet that rules the Lot of Marriage, Venus, and the Sun for women or Moon for men. The Planet that has the greatest Dignity in those three points is the Planet that actually rules marriage in that chart, and so when you did your Profections and Solar Returns, you would be looking at the Almuten of Marriage to give you hints that marriage is possible, then you would look at Primary Directions (using the Almuten) to determine the exact date (since transits are guaranteed to fail).


Ptolemy says the quadrant the Almuten is located will tell you roughly when in life someone will gain/lose wealth, and directed the any Planet that afflicts the Almuten of Wealth will tell you when they'll lose it.

Others of the Hellenistic group, the Romans, Persians and some of the Medieval ones use the Almuten of the 2nd House cusp, Ruler 2nd House, Jupiter (the general significator of wealth), and the Lot of Wealth (aka Lot of Substance or Lot of Possessions) which is ASC + 2nd House Cusp - 2nd House Ruler.

From that point they follow Ptolemy. Really important are Planets that afflict the Almuten of Wealth and from where. For example, a square, is it ten Houses away (a Dexter square) or four Houses away (a Sinister square). Dexter aspects (Dexter sextiles, trines and squares are more powerful than Sinister sextiles, trines and squares), and also is the Planet that squares (or opposes) the Almuten Angular or elevated above the Almuten.

The Almuten will give you hints at how you acquire whatever wealth you might get, through your own labor, through inheritance, through luck, through your own wit and cunning and skill, through arts and crafts and other Venusian things and so on, through leadership and command ability (like running your own business or running someone else's business) or other Martian things and so on.

That method is much better than Ptolemy's (who had a peculiar bias against Greek Lots) and when you start looking at a lot of charts, you'll see that the Lot of Fortune has little to do with wealth, rather it is about the Native's general fortune in life and the good and bad that happens to them.

Another method that is not as complex but worth the effort is that of the later Medievals, like Bonatti and Lily.

Here, you're looking at the the area 5° before the 2nd House Cusp up to 5° before the 3rd House Cusp. You consider any Planets in the region, plus the 2nd House Ruler and the Planet that rules any intercepted Sign in the region. So if the 2nd House Cusp is 15° Taurus and the 3rd House Cusp is 22° Gemini, you'd be looking at the region between 10° Taurus in the 1st House up to 17° Gemini and you'd look at both Venus and Mercury who rule Taurus and Gemini, plus any Planets in that region.

They also want you to look at Jupiter and the Lot of Fortune and any Planets that aspect Jupiter or the Lot of Fortune.

They pay more attention to the condition of the Planets, so, for example Jupiter as the general significator of wealth should be Angular, Direct, in Dignity, preferably in Sagittarius, Pisces, or Cancer and if not then in his own Triplicity or Term, Oriental, Diurnal and not in square or opposition to Mercury, Sun, Mars or Saturn and not Combust (and that's true for any Planet).

What you don't want to see is Jupiter in Capricorn, Gemini or Virgo, or Retrograde or Peregrine, Combust, Cadent, Occidental, Nocturnal in a Day Chart or other things like that, and especially not in square or opposition to a Malefic or Accidental Malefic (like Sun or Mercury).


Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."
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Unread 04-08-2018, 01:14 PM
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Re: My Finance & Career Issues From A Traditional Perspective

06-06-2011, 05:28 AM
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Re: A natives wealth
Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove
So, to analyse wealth, considering aspects to almutens etc. what if the almuten of wealth is Jupiter, squaring Neptune by 1) dexter square 2) sinister square . Dexter is stronger so - more of a danger to money, or dexter is more desired - so less of a threat? And with sinister?

Sextiles are the weakest, and a Sinister sextile from a Cadent House is almost a non-event (in fact from the 12th House it wouldn't even be an aspect).

I don't use Neptune, but to the extent that I would, I consider the Outers to be the Upper Octaves of Mercury, Venus and Mars. I would first look at the condition of Venus. A strong Venus, Direct, Fast in Motion, in an Angular/Succedent House, in her own Dignity would make Neptune strong. I'd want to see if Jupiter received Neptune by Sign, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term or Decan, because any Reception is good, even if it's only simple Reception, and the more Reception the better.

Since Jupiter is the faster Planet, he's the one squaring Neptune and that square will be powerful if Jupiter is Angular or Succedent, and if Jupiter is Dexter, he has the upper hand and would decimate Neptune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove
Also an almuten peregrine - do face/term/etc. count as 'natural' dignity? or is that the bargain basement?

An Almuten can be Peregrine, or Retrograde or Combust (or all three and worse) and you would look at that when judging chart.

You look at it sort of on a "Scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the highest..." and if the Peregrine Almuten is in the 10th or 5th or 9th or 11th or 1st or 7th that's better than being in the 6th, 8th or 12th.

Also, you have to view everything in the context of region, ethnicity, parentage and socio-economic status. A middling Almuten that isn't very strong but isn't absolutely horrid would indicate "average" and if you were Middle Class, you'd be smack dab in the Middle Middle Class, or if you were Lower Class in the middle of the Lower Class and so on.

If there are indicators of a change in class, you'd go from Lower Class to the middle of the Middle Class, or maybe you go from Upper Class to middle of the Middle Class if the indicators show a loss.

And part of that too, is that you might end up better off, the same or worse off than your parents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ethertwist
When a planet is said to be Occidental, does that mean it's below the horizon (Houses 1-6) or does it just refer to it moving away from the Sun or in the opposite half of the chart where the Sun is located? Is my understanding of this completely incorrect?

It's confusing. I'd prefer another term myself, but suffice to say that a Planet is Occidental when in the 1st, 2nd, 3r, 7th, 8th or 9th Houses, but it is also Occidental when it rises after the Sun.

You always want Venus and Mars rising after the Sun, ie Occidental, because they are Nocturnal or Feminine Planets. You always want Jupiter and Saturn to be Oriental, rising before the Sun because they are Masculine and Diurnal.

Mercury is a different animal. If the Sun is in Gemini, then you want Mercury Oriental rising before the Sun and in Gemini (a few degrees ahead of the Sun and not Combust), but if Mercury is Occidental, you'd want him behind the Sun in Cancer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethertwist
Does a close opposition from Uranus to the Part/Lot of Fortune count or since Uranus is not considered a factor in Traditional astrology is that aspect deemed negligible?

I ignore Uranus and never really found it useful in a Natal Chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethertwist
What about Jupiter at a pitted degree?

Those are also called Welled or Deep Degrees, and they're exactly what they sound like, you dug your grave, or you made your bed and have to lie in it, or you dug yourself into a hole and can't get out, or you've trapped yourself in a corner like a cockroach.

In a Natal Chart, Planets in Pitted Degrees struggle a lot. Sometimes struggle is good, it's Nature's way of strengthening.

At other times, struggle gets to be a freaking headache.

If a Planet in a Pitted Degree is strong, it will survive the struggle, if not, then it's going to become tedious, if not downright frustrating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethertwist
Is that a strong indicator against potential wealth or is it just one factor that could be mitigated by something more promising?

Jupiter is just one of the significators of wealth. If Jupiter is the Almuten, then to help it, you'd want to see Venus in any aspect with Jupiter, or Mercury or the Sun in sextile or trine with Jupiter. Even Mars in Pisces, Aries, Sagittarius or Leo in sextile or trine with Jupiter would help (especially in a Night Chart because Jupiter rules the Fire Signs at Night).

The Moon conjunct, sextile or trine Jupiter, that would depend a lot on Sign, House and House Type. The Moon represents constant change and fluctuation, just like the song says:

O Fortuna! Velut luna
statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis;
Vita detestabilis
nunc obdurat et tunc curat
ludo mentis aciem,

egestatem, potestatem dissolvit ut glaciem.

Fortune, like the Moon
always changing state,
forever increasing and decreasing.


Hateful life:
Now oppressing then soothing
as it fancies,

Poverty and Power, [the Moon] melts them like ice.
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Re: My Finance & Career Issues From A Traditional Perspective

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06-18-2011, 01:36 AM
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Re: A natives wealth
Ptolemy looks solely at the Lot of Fortune. He wants to know what Planet(s) have "dominion" there. In other words, which Planets have the greatest amount of Dignity in that degree point, because those Planets are going to play a role in wealth throughout the Native's life.

The Planet that has the most Dignity there is the Almuten. Ptolemy uses the Sign, Exaltation, Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler and any Planet that is in aspect with the Lot of Fortune.

Your Lot is at 6° Aquarius:

Sign: Saturn
Exaltation: None
Triplicity: Mercury (the Night Ruler of Air)
Term: Mercury
Aspect: Saturn (joined by body -- ie conjunct)

Here, as it sometimes happens, there are two Planets with equal Dignity in the Lot. Because Saturn is the Lot Ruler and is corporally conjunct and is closer to the Lot than Mercury, Saturn would be the Almuten of Wealth according to Ptolemy.

Ptolemy would then look at the total number of Planets that have Dignity in the Lot of Fortune to determine the permanency of the Native's Wealth. More Planets means more stability.

He also looks at the condition of the Planets to determine stability. Here Saturn is Cadent, but in the 3rd House, which is rather harmless, in his own Sign, he's Diurnal, but Occidental, and in a trine with Moon and receives Moon by Exaltation. Saturn and Moon are Friends, so there's some affinity there.

Mercury is in Detriment in Sagittarius, in square with Jupiter but there's Mutual Reception, and in sextile with Moon and Mercury receives Moon since Mercury is the Night Air Triplicity Ruler. Mercury is also in a Degree of Increasing Fortune. Your Sun is in a Pitted Degree, but I would kind of ignore that since your Moon is the Sect Ruler.

Mercury is applying to Mars, and Mars is Diurnal and very Malefic, especially since Mercury and Mars are Enemies and neither receives the other.

What Ptolemy would do now is direct Saturn and Mercury by direct and converse direction and where they made sextiles, squares or trines to the Lot of Fortune that would indicate things that would happen regarding your wealth. Just looking at the Houses and current placements, I'd guess that when Saturn sextiles the Lot of Fortune, you'll probably gain, perhaps from the sale of property or your home at some point in the future.

That's how Ptolemy did it. He had a peculiar disdain for the Lots except for the Lot of Fortune.

The way everyone else did is to look at the Planet(s) with the greatest dignities in the 2nd House Cusp, Jupiter and the Lot of Wealth (which often appears in texts as Substance or Possessions -- not to be confused with another Lot related to Possessions).

In your case, because Jupiter rules the 2nd House Cusp, you're only looking at two points: Jupiter and the Lot of Wealth

This raises an interesting question, and that is do you count Jupiter twice? I don't know.

Quote:
2. Calculate the Almuten of Wealth

.......................A...............B.......... ....C.............D
Sign..............Mercury......Mercury.....Mercury ......Saturn
Exaltation.......Mercury......Mercury.....Mercury. ....Venus
Triplicity...........Moon.........Moon........Moon ........Mercury
Term..............Jupiter........Jupiter......Jupi ter.......Mercury
Facing|Aspect
Here, Mercury has the most Dignity in points C & D.

Quote:
I don't know what facing|aspect means. Could someone clarify this for me?
It's a Greek word and somehow the Persians confused it with the Chaldean Decans which some people call "Face" because I think the Greek word was facis.

Facing is a Planet's correct position in relation to the Sun/Moon.

When Jupiter is Occidental of the Sun, his proper relationship should always be that of a trine. Jupiter doesn't actually have to be in trine with the Sun, he just has to be in a Sign that is trine with the Sun's Sign

When Jupiter is Oriental, should he be in trine with the Moon by Sign.

You can probably see this better by taking a Natural wheel and just writing in the Planets in their Signs. When you're done doing that, you can see the proper facing for all the Planets.

When Venus is in her proper facing when she is Occidental of the Sun and sextile or Oriental of the Moon and sextile. Venus is a Nocturnal Planet and should rise ahead of the Moon, but she should rise after the Sun.

That's what Facing is and its a form of Dignity.

In your chart, Mercury is not in his proper facing. If he would be then he would either be in Virgo or Aquarius. For Venus to be in her proper facing, she would need to be in Leo or Pisces and so on for the rest of them.

Quote:
Mercury has 8 dignities so this would be the Almuten of Wealth.

Did I do this correctly?
That's close enough for government work, but yes, Mercury would be the Almuten.

And like Ptolemy, we would direct Mercury to see what happens.

Anyway Mercury is the Almuten of Wealth and your Lot of Wealth is in Aquarius conjunct Saturn and trine Moon, so you do have the ability to earn money. Mercury is in a sextile by Sign to the Lot so you will have some control over your financial affairs. You need to be careful because Mercury squares your Lot of Debt at 18° Virgo. If you loan large sums of money to people, don't expect to get it back, and if you borrow money, make sure it doesn't get out of hand, because your prone to take a beating on interest, especially since your Lot of Wealth is in an Azieme Degree.


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Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."
Last edited by BobZemco; 06-18-2011 at 01:44 AM.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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