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  #26  
Unread 04-09-2017, 07:11 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Short answer:

No, I don't agree. Signs being the same as houses is just an error in the way people have thought astrology to be. Just like language changes, so do ideologies and beliefs. Anyway, the correct thing is to think that, say, Pisces is not the same as the 12th house. Different things. Not even that similar.

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  #27  
Unread 04-10-2017, 05:46 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

moonrise, I can see that I'm not going to convince you otherwise, but the idea that the house with the same number as the sign's order in the zodiac seems to be a recent invention, with the exception of medical astrology. I believe C. E. O. Carter started this idea. If you look back in the history of astrology I think you will see that the sign-house conflation is pretty recent.

Where it really gets screwy is if you say, "OK-- Aquarius is just like the 11th house," but then someone has Taurus on the cusp of the 11th, with Venus in Aries in the 10th square Mars, for example. This gives the 11th a Taurus-Aries flavour, not an Aquarian flavour.

One book I highly recommend is Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky.

Aquarius is not notably into pragmatism or balance. It is the fixed air sign, meaning that its approach to life is primarily mental (air) not practical, which would be associated with the earth element. Balance has been associated with Libra, not Aquarius, because the constellation Libra was anciently called "the scales."

I completely disagree with your notion that Aquarius somehow equates to the 11th house, Libra somehow equates to the 7th house, and so on. I tried to show in my previous post that this idea actually misses a lot of the totality of house meanings, for starters.

The third house doesn't mean "lateral family." It includes siblings, neighbours, and short-distance travel. You can extend this meaning with turned houses, to some extent. To do extended family members like parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins, you would use a turned house. For example, Dad is the 4th house, so his brother (your paternal uncle) would be the third from the 4th house, or 6th house.

I could go on like this, but obviously you'll do your form of astrology, and I'll do mine.
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Unread 04-10-2017, 06:08 AM
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Smile Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

It's not that complicated. Whether you accept the notion or not, the idea is simply that a Planet is most "at home" in the Sign it "rules", without actually becoming that Sign; and, by the same token, a Sign is most "at home" in the House with it's own sequential number, without actually becoming that House. And, these affinities lead to greater effectiveness in the placements. It's definitely a Modern concept.
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  #29  
Unread 04-10-2017, 06:54 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

David, the conflation of signs and houses by-the-numbers "is not that complicated." Unfortunately, a lot of the technique of reading horoscopes is more complicated.

It's one thing to say that a planet is most "at home" in its domicile sign, but this does not work for houses. The moon doesn't actually have an affinity with the 4th house if we take its traditional meaning as the father, not the mother. Saturn has no particular affinity with the 10th house, as this is the traditional house of one's mother. Saturn often shows where we feel inadequate and not good-enough, not where we manifest our 10th house matters of our vocation in life.

I could go on in this fashion. Indeed, I already have.
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Unread 04-10-2017, 10:44 AM
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Smile Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
David, the conflation of signs and houses by-the-numbers "is not that complicated." Unfortunately, a lot of the technique of reading horoscopes is more complicated.

It's one thing to say that a planet is most "at home" in its domicile sign, but this does not work for houses. The moon doesn't actually have an affinity with the 4th house if we take its traditional meaning as the father, not the mother. Saturn has no particular affinity with the 10th house, as this is the traditional house of one's mother. Saturn often shows where we feel inadequate and not good-enough, not where we manifest our 10th house matters of our vocation in life.


I could go on in this fashion. Indeed, I already have.
I specified it was a Modern idea. Traditional doesn't number the Signs from Aries to Pisces. Thanks for the info on the Traditional House interpretations. Sounds like Ptolemy, because he was so focused on Gender. At least most Modern branches agree with Traditional-rulerships when it comes to Leo and Cancer!
I do object to the word "conflation" in this instance--it's about compatibility of Signs with Houses, not lumping them together into the same category.
For the 4th House, I see it as home, private, protective; and, for H10, as social, career, competitive. Gender isn't the issue, since these roles aren't Gender-specific. If it's a question of which parent is nurturing and loves unconditionally, and which is more critical and motivational, that's not necessarily Gender-specific either.

Last edited by david starling; 04-10-2017 at 11:44 AM.
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  #31  
Unread 04-11-2017, 05:53 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

moonrise, let me try this again.

Each house has multiple meanings, and they do not always seem compatible. Traditionally the 10th became the house of the mother in a turned house system: the 4th was the father in the sense that one's ancestral roots and inheritance were determined through one's paternal line. The mother was then 7th from the 4th in a turned house system. Not all traditional astrologers worked it this way, with some giving both parents to the 4th or female relatives more generally tothe 7th house.

But the 10th house as one's vocation and public image bears no relation to the mother. These are simply alternate ways of looking at the 10th depending upon what you wish to learn from it.

Similarly, the 7th is both the house of marriage and open enemies. The 12th indicates deception but also large animals. The 6th indicates one's health but also small animals and people who do some kind of service-related work for us. We don't need to make all of the meanings internal to a particular house consistent with one another.

If you get great results from the type of astrology you do, that's wonderful and I wouldn't want to take anything from your success. But it does seem to me that you risk losing a lot of the finer-grained detail that a horoscope provides when you think of signs and houses as meaning essentially the same thing.

David, if you read Tetrabiblos, you will see that Ptolemy scarcely mentions houses at all. He doesn't even identify what all of them mean. He doesn't say much about gender, either, so far as I recall. He does have some material on male sexual orientation and heterosexual marriage.
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Unread 04-11-2017, 06:53 AM
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Smile Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

I read that Ptolemy explained that the reason the Sun and Moon ruled only one Sign each, was that the Sun was "too masculine" to be able to rule a feminine, night-Sign, and the Moon "too feminine" to rule a masculine day-Sign. This was his explanation of a rulership pattern already in place, of uncertain origin. To me, it's obvious that the reason has nothing to do with Gender, just the simple fact that the Sun and Moon move in only one direction, whereas the Planets have both Direct and Retrograde-motion. The whole idea that "night"= feminine and "day"= masculine, appears to have been largely his concept. Yang and Yin, when properly understood, aren't about male and female, so I believe his Gender explanation is untenable. Especially since the earliest recorded Moon deity was male--Inanna's father, Sin, in the Uruk culture of the Tigris Euphrates.
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  #33  
Unread 04-12-2017, 05:06 AM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

David, have you got a copy of Tetrabiblos? It's available through Internet book sellers, or you could request a free copy through your nearest public library branch via their Inter-library Loan service.

I will be back home in a few days, when I can look up my copy, but my recollection is that Ptolemy simply starts with the signs closest to the summer solstice, Cancer and Leo, and then works his way out from there. Read the first column from outer to inner planets.

Cancer=moon...........Leo=sun
Gemini=Mercury........Virgo
Taurus=Venus...........Libra
Aries=Mars...............Scorpio
Pisces=Jupiter...........Sagittarius
Aquarius=Saturn........Capricorn

Note that in Hellenistic astrology the water signs are feminine, so we nevertheless have Mars ruling Scorpio. Conversely, the air signs are masculine but we have Venus ruling Libra.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #34  
Unread 04-13-2017, 05:09 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

I feel pretty inclined to see the connection between signs and houses as it ultimately helps orient myself better. There's nothing about the priority of each house that separates from the connection to the signs (to me) but seeing the discussion unfold is interesting to me.

As for the 10H/4H/Mother/Father debate, the way I eventually had someone break it down to me is that this is a thinking that's also heavily dependent on the idea that everyone has parents who function within the traditional gender norms. While that may have been the case for ages, that's no longer the case today. Many people will have mothers who take on the role of "father" (as well as mother depending on circumstance) so trying to create that association is slightly futile. Instead, I've found it easier to look at it as Primary vs. Secondary. Primary is still one that I would associate with Cancer like traits. Cancer is a provider, it nurtures, grows and develops. It creates the home and sets up a foundation for roots to take hold and for comfort/security to be placed. It's also a sign that takes care of the actual literal home (property). It CAN be associated with inheritance, it CAN, be associated with the Father, it CAN be associated with the end of matters (as the moon's cycle shows the beginning and the end as well). I don't see this negating its association the Cancer in the least bit, as some people's father's take on Cancer traits while their mothers may take on Capricorn traits.

Same with 10H as the secondary giver. The person who "brings home the bread". The person who helps set the standard for what hard work looks like, the person who's often times the defining face of the family. This tends to be the more "distant" parent who may also be seen as the "Boss" in the house. The one who'll play the bad guy (Like Capricorn often does) and who sets the rules that people tend to abide by. For some people this can be both parents, one parent, a grand parent, anyone really. None of this negates the association to Capricorn to me.

At the end of the day, what connects the two is that Cancer and Capricorn are both interested in legacy. Cancer is more associated with behind the doors legacy (so inheritance, psychological roots, the actual home that can be left for children) while Capricorn is more associated with Public legacy (The title that comes with advancing, the trophies that reflect hard work, the new structure that is left behind for everyone to function within in order to have some semblance of security).

At the end of the day, though, there's a myriad of methods and if it works for you then it works for you. There's a lot of traditional teachings and thinkings that I do not think will last for very long because they're heavily rooted in cultural and social conditions that are slowly dying. If astrology isn't able or willing to evolve with the times then it's not a science or an art form but an archaic teaching that rather than expands and evolves as both do, but restricts and prevents progress. It's ultimately why a lot of super traditional thinkings would never apply for myself or anyone I know in relationship to our charts. A lot of us also don't come from Western families so the archetypes and how we were raised and taught to see the world doesn't really apply. But there ARE the basics that definitely will forever hold true. It's how we choose to integrate it into our reality that will continue to change.
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  #35  
Unread 04-13-2017, 06:39 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by twistandshout View Post
I feel pretty inclined to see the connection between signs and houses as it ultimately helps orient myself better. There's nothing about the priority of each house that separates from the connection to the signs (to me) but seeing the discussion unfold is interesting to me.

As for the 10H/4H/Mother/Father debate, the way I eventually had someone break it down to me is that this is a thinking that's also heavily dependent on the idea that everyone has parents who function within the traditional gender norms. While that may have been the case for ages, that's no longer the case today. Many people will have mothers who take on the role of "father" (as well as mother depending on circumstance) so trying to create that association is slightly futile. Instead, I've found it easier to look at it as Primary vs. Secondary. Primary is still one that I would associate with Cancer like traits. Cancer is a provider, it nurtures, grows and develops. It creates the home and sets up a foundation for roots to take hold and for comfort/security to be placed. It's also a sign that takes care of the actual literal home (property). It CAN be associated with inheritance, it CAN, be associated with the Father, it CAN be associated with the end of matters (as the moon's cycle shows the beginning and the end as well). I don't see this negating its association the Cancer in the least bit, as some people's father's take on Cancer traits while their mothers may take on Capricorn traits.

Same with 10H as the secondary giver. The person who "brings home the bread". The person who helps set the standard for what hard work looks like, the person who's often times the defining face of the family. This tends to be the more "distant" parent who may also be seen as the "Boss" in the house. The one who'll play the bad guy (Like Capricorn often does) and who sets the rules that people tend to abide by. For some people this can be both parents, one parent, a grand parent, anyone really. None of this negates the association to Capricorn to me.

At the end of the day, what connects the two is that Cancer and Capricorn are both interested in legacy. Cancer is more associated with behind the doors legacy (so inheritance, psychological roots, the actual home that can be left for children) while Capricorn is more associated with Public legacy (The title that comes with advancing, the trophies that reflect hard work, the new structure that is left behind for everyone to function within in order to have some semblance of security).

At the end of the day, though, there's a myriad of methods and if it works for you then it works for you. There's a lot of traditional teachings and thinkings that I do not think will last for very long because they're heavily rooted in cultural and social conditions that are slowly dying. If astrology isn't able or willing to evolve with the times then it's not a science or an art form but an archaic teaching that rather than expands and evolves as both do, but restricts and prevents progress. It's ultimately why a lot of super traditional thinkings would never apply for myself or anyone I know in relationship to our charts. A lot of us also don't come from Western families so the archetypes and how we were raised and taught to see the world doesn't really apply. But there ARE the basics that definitely will forever hold true. It's how we choose to integrate it into our reality that will continue to change.

Why not set aside traditional teachings and instead start of with a fresh mind by looking at real life individuals and their correct charts without any bias and then make conclusions based on real observations?
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  #36  
Unread 04-13-2017, 07:06 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Why not set aside traditional teachings and instead start of with a fresh mind by looking at real life individuals and their correct charts without any bias and then make conclusions based on real observations?
Without a starting base of axioms, you won't be able to sensibly classify your observations as the descriptions and definitions of said observations have no frame of reference or grounding with established principles.

If you want to look at a real life person's chart without any "bias", where would the idea that Saturn has anything to do with death and hardship come from? Where would the idea that Mercury deals with communication and speech originate? Paying attention to tradition is acknowledging that nothing exists in a vacuum.
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Unread 04-13-2017, 07:15 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Why not set aside traditional teachings and instead start of with a fresh mind by looking at real life individuals and their correct charts without any bias and then make conclusions based on real observations?
So you're saying it's better to reinvent the wheel? Traditional astrology will not make you biased if you're not biased yourself, but it will provide you with a great amount of knowledge and observations that have been effective for centuries. When you try to see the world only through your eyes, it's in fact much easier to become biased. Taking into consideration other people's experience and observations will make you more open-minded and will help you get a better understanding of a subject you're interested in, be it astrology or something else.
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Unread 04-13-2017, 07:40 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

My point is that since we are entering the aquarian age the old illusional concepts about astrology needs to be released so that the factual truth can lead us forward. There are many misconceptions out there that deviate from the fundamental core astrological principles and these I believe needs to be cleared out. To play with the thought of objectively observe individuals in real life is thus from my perspective a fresh experimental take on this to start re- learning the fundamental principles that sometimes seems to be forgotten in discussions where some people seem to believe that there are opinions about astrology when there in fact are actually fundamentals that can't be overlooked, like you said conspiracytheorist. Hope this brings some clarity to both of you.
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  #39  
Unread 04-13-2017, 07:57 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

While I'm undecided on the Aquarian Age issue, this forum has a heavy practical component to its astrology - for just the reasons you've stated. People want to test what conventions are worth keeping and which one are worth throwing out. RMC threads where people put their learning to actual charts and see which observations are relevant; as well as threads that asks specific questions about what aspects and signs cause x to occur, with ample examples from real life.

So why not add your personal findings to the table?
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Unread 04-13-2017, 08:08 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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While I'm undecided on the Aquarian Age issue, this forum has a heavy practical component to its astrology - for just the reasons you've stated. People want to test what conventions are worth keeping and which one are worth throwing out. RMC threads where people put their learning to actual charts and see which observations are relevant; as well as threads that asks specific questions about what aspects and signs cause x to occur, with ample examples from real life.

So why not add your personal findings to the table?

I agree with you that in principle the forum could work as an enlightened source of observational examples even though it is more complex than that since many of the mainstream false astrological belief systems still has energetic nourishment which interfere with the process of giving people the opportunity to truly understand this advanced form of spiritual science.
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Unread 04-13-2017, 08:11 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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I agree with you that in principle the forum could work as an enlightened source of observational examples even though it is more complex than that since many of the mainstream false astrological belief systems still has energetic nourishment which interfere with the process of giving people the opportunity to truly understand this advanced form of spiritual science.
We mere mortals can only do so much to stem the tide of false beliefs - if there are powerful spiritual elements at play keeping us from the "truth". What do you see as "mainstream false astrological beliefs" and are they still false if they happen to accurately characterize events/things within a life to a high resolution/detailed degree? Or is it an axiomatic issue where we "see through the glass darkly" and would be better disposed with a more comprehensive and correct system? How does one go about doing that from the ground up when we seem to be unable to unmire ourselves from false beliefs?
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Unread 04-13-2017, 08:17 PM
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Why not set aside traditional teachings and instead start of with a fresh mind by looking at real life individuals and their correct charts without any bias and then make conclusions based on real observations?
That's ultimately what I'm implying. I think there needs to be a difference in actual traditional perceptions of astrology and the actual rules that make it the functioning craft that it is(I.e. planets, signs, aspects, houses, etc.). Like I see no issue with something like self-value and worth being associated with the second house via modern teachings because ultimately we have tied that into our concept of "value" in many cultures. Many people would not agree with this, however, which is fine, but even looking at the charts of other people, I see it correctly reflected in this.

There's a lot of ways in which we've developed and progressed as a species that simply is not reflected in traditional thinking. If astrology is to continue to develop and be relevant, there'll always be a need for flexibility.
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Unread 04-13-2017, 08:22 PM
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Smile Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

I stand by the "tree metaphor", that the roots of Astrology are Traditional, and that Modern-astrology is the branches. It's the synergy between the two that gives Astrology its vitality and relevance. When the Aquarian Age finally takes effect, Astrology as we know it will become unnecessary, because we'll be able to see and feel for ourselves, experientially, what it's telling us now in this time of Spiritual darkness.
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Unread 04-13-2017, 08:24 PM
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I stand by the "tree metaphor", that the roots of Astrology are Traditional, and that Modern-astrology is the branches. It's the synergy between the two that gives Astrology its vitality and relevance. When the Aquarian Age finally takes effect, Astrology as we know it will become unnecessary, because we'll be able to see and feel for ourselves, experientially, what it's telling us now in this time of Spiritual darkness.
I think this is ultimately the best way to put it and see it, honestly!
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Unread 04-13-2017, 08:50 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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We mere mortals can only do so much to stem the tide of false beliefs - if there are powerful spiritual elements at play keeping us from the "truth". What do you see as "mainstream false astrological beliefs" and are they still false if they happen to accurately characterize events/things within a life to a high resolution/detailed degree? Or is it an axiomatic issue where we "see through the glass darkly" and would be better disposed with a more comprehensive and correct system? How does one go about doing that from the ground up when we seem to be unable to unmire ourselves from false beliefs?
My experience has shown me that a willingness to learn beyond ones belief systems or conscious understanding widens ones consciousness to be able to find hidden truths beyond the false beliefs that many people don't have the frequency to see. This applies to astrology as well and therefore my willingness to play with the thought of emptying ones cup in order for it to be re filled with new insights since a full cup as you know can't be filled. Astrology is such a wide reaching tool that most people can detract value from it even though everything is not in a correct alignment. Intuition also plays a part in this.
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Unread 04-13-2017, 08:56 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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My experience has shown me that a willingness to learn beyond ones belief systems or conscious understanding widens ones consciousness to be able to find hidden truths beyond the false beliefs that many people don't have the frequency to see. This applies to astrology as well and therefore my willingness to play with the thought of emptying ones cup in order for it to be re filled with new insights since a full cup as you know can't be filled. Astrology is such a wide reaching tool that most people can detract value from it even though everything is not in a correct alignment. Intuition also plays a part in this.
This is a legitimate question - do you have visionary capabilities?
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Unread 04-13-2017, 09:48 PM
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Smile Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

I do "connect" the Houses with the Signs (beginning with Aries) of the same numbering sequence. But, Signs and Houses are not the same thing.

Last edited by david starling; 04-13-2017 at 10:01 PM.
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This is a legitimate question - do you have visionary capabilities?
Fire-signs lay it on the line!
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Unread 04-13-2017, 10:02 PM
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
This is a legitimate question - do you have visionary capabilities?
Everyone has visionary capabilities to some extent.
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Unread 04-13-2017, 10:06 PM
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conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
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Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

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Originally Posted by ynnest View Post
Everyone has visionary capabilities to some extent.
Nice dodge.
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