Prenatal epoch calculation

JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
PlutorisingLee said:


Oh wow looks like no.
On the date of August 13
a Moon in Virgo would not be possible with an Ascendent in Scorpio. BUT on the date of August 12 a late Virgo Moon and Scorpio rising
are possible around 1:50 pm
BUT with the scorpio rising being later and not matching the degree.
(Hospital time was 14:32 but my family all said later.
Even so the hospital record is not 13 pm)
Click to expand...
So the hospital time was 14:32 but your family all said later
which makes sense
because
the rectified time using pre-natal rectification method
aka Trutine of Hermes
places your time of birth as having been at 15:32
LITERALLY a one hour difference almost to the minute
between the rectified time of 15:28:03
and the hospital record of 14:32
and agrees with your family

which raises the question of human error :smile:
and so
consider the possibility
that a member of staff at the hospital noted your time of birth
as 14:32
instead of 15:32
what are the chances of member of staffs watch being an hour slow
or the clock on the hospital wall being an hour slow
or that the member of staff simply misread the time
or whoever read the time written by the member of staff
read a 2pm for a 3pm and wrote 14:32 instead of 15:32
or
you probably were not the sole newborn at that hospital
another newborn was born an hour before you were born
and the member of staff got the times of birth switched
hospitals are busy places
to be objective
one needs to consider the various possibilites
impartially

also check
if there are any family members with Libra Sun or Libra Moon
or Virgo Sun or Virgo Moon
or Libra ascendant or Virgo Ascendant
or Libra Descendant or Virgo Descendant
or Libra MC or Virgo MC
or Libra IC or Virgo IC
or any one of the seven visible planets
i.e.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn
in Libra or Virgo


 
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PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
So the hospital time was 14:32 but your family all said later
which makes sense
because
the rectified time using pre-natal rectification method
aka Trutine of Hermes
places your time of birth as having been at 15:32
LITERALLY a one hour difference almost to the minute
between the rectified time of 15:28:03
and the hospital record of 14:32
and agrees with your family
Click to expand...

Your right it is very curious! :joyful::andy: it does look like an hour difference to the minute which would be quite a coincidence? I think. On the other hand, the hospital time sounds so precise doesn't it.

which raises the question of human error :smile:
and so
consider the possibility
that a member of staff at the hospital noted your time of birth
as 14:32
instead of 15:32
what are the chances of member of staffs watch being an hour slow
or the clock on the hospital wall being an hour slow
or that the member of staff simply misread the time
or whoever read the time written by the member of staff
read a 2pm for a 3pm and wrote 14:32 instead of 15:32
or
you probably were not the sole newborn at that hospital
another newborn was born an hour before you were born
and the member of staff got the times of birth switched
hospitals are busy places
to be objective
one needs to consider the various possibilites
impartially
Click to expand...
Humans do make mistakes but an entire hour...That seems a lot. Not impossible though...When I asked my mother at first she did say 15:30-16:00, my dad remembers it as being earlier but he was not sure.
I guess the hospital staff couldn't know I would be interested in Astrology :lol:
also check
if there are any family members with Libra Sun or Libra Moon
or Virgo Sun or Virgo Moon
or Libra ascendant or Virgo Ascendant
or Libra Descendant or Virgo Descendant
or Libra MC or Virgo MC
or Libra IC or Virgo IC
or any one of the seven visible planets
i.e.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn
in Libra or Virgo
Click to expand...
I did as you suggested and found:
Mother:Has a Libra Moon/DC
Father:Very probably a Virgo Ascendent
Do brothers count?
My sister has Jupiter in Libra and DC in Virgo,
My brother has no Libra and no Virgo.

:andy:What else can I check?
 
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petosiris

Banned
Can you share your place of birth (I can find it using the quadrant MC and the Moon's degree, but that would be tedious)? Maybe personal message it to me.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
PlutorisingLee said:
Your right it is very curious! :joyful::andy:
it does look like an hour difference to the minute
which would be quite a coincidence? I think.
On the other hand, the hospital time sounds so precise doesn't it.

Humans do make mistakes but an entire hour...
That seems a lot.
Click to expand...
clocks go forward an entire hour in Spring annually :smile:
if it was a not very modern hospital
perhaps the clocks had not yet been put forward

There are other issues with time as well
depending on location relevant to GMT
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
PlutorisingLee said:
Not impossible though...
When I asked my mother
at first she did say 15:30-16:00
my dad remembers it as being earlier
but he was not sure.
I guess the hospital staff couldn't know
I would be interested in Astrology :lol:
Click to expand...
few births are timed with any precision
PlutorisingLee said:
I did as you suggested and found:
Mother:Has a Libra Moon/DC
Father:Very probably a Virgo Ascendent
Do brothers count?
My sister has Jupiter in Libra and DC in Virgo,
My brother has no Libra and no Virgo.

:andy:What else can I check?
Click to expand...
check previous generations, it is interesting :smile:
even without a time of birth
there are the seven visible planets
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
by the way
if you create a Sidereal natal
Sidereally, you would have Virgo ascendant :smile:
and maybe a Libra Moon
I recommend using Aldebaran 15
petosiris asked kaktuzz to add it and he did
member kaktuzz has a sidereal option at https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology
astro.com has a sidereal option as well
but kaktuzz charts are great
and astro.com does not offer Aldebaran 15
 
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petosiris

Banned
I seem to get good agreement with 14:25, so I would personally trust the birth certificate. Are your teeth thin-set rather than wide? Is the upper part of your body slightly higher than the lower part? Do you get flushy? Are your ears smaller compared to other people?
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
petosiris said:

I seem to get good agreement with 14:25, so
I would personally trust the birth certificate.
Are your teeth thin-set rather than wide?
Is the upper part of your body slightly higher than the lower part?
Do you get flushy?
Are your ears smaller compared to other people?
Click to expand...
Did petosiris describe you even if sketchily :smile:
 
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petosiris

Banned
The technique has no difference between tropical and sidereal. These are the charts in sidereal, you get almost perfect agreement (a difference of a degree between the reported and the rectified ascendant). I substracted 277 days, because the difference is 50 degrees, giving a day and six hours to every 15 degrees, thus 45 degrees is 3 days and 18 hours, as you can see it is extremely close with the remaining 5 degrees. I think the method is made to be approximate, but very near the reported ascendant. The degree of the Moon or the opposite at conception is the degree of the ascendant and the degree of the Moon at the nativity is the degree of the Ascendant at conception.
https://i.imgur.com/EWhnOri.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pHQ7JRm.jpg
 
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PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
petosiris said:
I seem to get good agreement with 14:25, so I would personally trust the birth certificate. Are your teeth thin-set rather than wide? Is the upper part of your body slightly higher than the lower part? Do you get flushy? Are your ears smaller compared to other people?
Click to expand...
Thank you for checking.I'm not flushy, ears are smaller (Taurus?), upper body bony, have a dimple, teeth are regular I guess can't say.
 
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petosiris

Banned
Small ears is an indication of Leo according to Pseudo-Pythagoras, but that is only one thing. The Hellenistic and some medieval authors would note the rising sign and the sign of the Moon for appearance usually.

Small ears, because the Lion does not like to listen.
 
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PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
petosiris said:
Small ears is an indication of Leo according to Pseudo-Pythagoras, but that is only one thing. The Hellenistic and some medieval authors would note the rising sign and the sign of the Moon for appearance usually.

Small ears, because the Lion does not like to listen.
Click to expand...

Oh I see because- in Sidereal I have Leo Asc? And yes of course appearance is a combination of all chart. I see you used the date August 12 and time 2:25 pm. Because I use tropical zodiac it is hard for me to study this chart or know what it means.
Is there maybe anything about personality or life events that could confirm this time?
Thank you
 
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PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
by the way
if you create a Sidereal natal
Sidereally, you would have Virgo ascendant :smile:
and maybe a Libra Moon
I recommend using Aldebaran 15
petosiris asked kaktuzz to add it and he did
member kaktuzz has a sidereal option at https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology
astro.com has a sidereal option as well
but kaktuzz charts are great
and astro.com does not offer Aldebaran 15
Click to expand...
Thank you I will definitely make a chart. I like using whole sign houses but sidereal zodiac is not yet easy for me.
I'm somewhat confused now about the correct chart :sad:
was the conclusion we first reached using the prenatal Epoch method not solid enough in your opinion?
My intuition was the chart for around 13:30 pm. It fits so many thing..BUT I know that is not scientific and I want to follow the method.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
PlutorisingLee said:
Thank you I will definitely make a chart.
I like using whole sign houses
but sidereal zodiac is not yet easy for me.
I'm somewhat confused now about the correct chart :sad:
was the conclusion we first reached using the prenatal Epoch method
not solid enough in your opinion?
My intuition was the chart for around 13:30 pm.
It fits so many thing..
BUT I know that is not scientific and I want to follow the method.
Click to expand...
If we follow the method of Prenatalc Epoch
the results are clear and unequivocal
i.e.
when you said
PlutorisingLee said:
Next, I played around until the Ascent was exactly 22:51 degrees
(drum roll) resulting in the time of 13:23:13 for my birth.
(about an hour off to the time I thought).

Before I stare in shock at the new possible chart:
How accurate is this method do you think? to the minute?

What is the next step? :biggrin:
Click to expand...
and I replied requesting:
would you confirm
that location of Moon on 13 August
on date of the prenatal Epoch
was Virgo :smile:
and if so
would you state which degree of Virgo
the prenatal Epoch Virgo moon occupied

I asked that question specifically because
the scientific method
based on the Moon
states:
"...the Moon at Epoch is the Ascendant at birth.."
and so when you replied:
PlutorisingLee said:
No, the Moon in the epoch chart is 4'55 Libra :unsure:
Does that change things?
Click to expand...
THEN
we are able to say that
IF the prenatal Epoch rectification method IS RELIABLE
then
our calculations prove beyond a shadow of a doubt
that
IF your natal Moon is Scorpio
and you were born on the official birth time DAY of the week and MONTH of the YEAR
THEN
the Pre Natal Epoch aka Trutine of Hermes method proves that
your Ascendant is four degrees 55 minutes Libra :smile:

HOWEVER
objectivity is necessary
so one continues questioning that chart

nevertheless
according to the method
your ascendant at birth is 4'55 Libra
because
you said
PlutorisingLee said:
No, the Moon in the epoch chart is 4'55 Libra :unsure:
Does that change things?
Click to expand...
The Epoch chart Moon establishes clearly the ascendant at birth
 
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PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
If we follow the method of Prenatalc Epoch
the results are clear and unequivocal
i.e.
when you said
and I replied requesting:
would you confirm
that location of Moon on 13 August
on date of the prenatal Epoch
was Virgo :smile:
and if so
would you state which degree of Virgo
the prenatal Epoch Virgo moon occupied
Click to expand...
Oh forgive me please for my scattered mind! I see what the problem is now!
On the 13th of August it is all as you so clearly illuminated! :biggrin:
But on the 12th of August I can indeed find a 22 degree Scorpio Ascendant with a 20 degree Virgo Moon! At 13:23:33 pm.
So now I see this difference in a day makes all the difference.
I know we reached the date of 13th in the calculation...

So now the question is if to stay with reached results of the 13th of August or to consider the 12th?
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
because you originally said
PlutorisingLee said:
Whoa I really messed up the calculation!
Thank you for correcting me and being so kind and taking the time :love:. This is so important as a right chart
can mean a make a life difference from a wrong one..

I substructed 276 days from my birth date and ended up with the date of August 13.
Assuming a day starts at midnight I added another 12 hours
and we have 12:00 pm. Which makes sense as I was born between 13-16 pm AND the ascendent was in Scorpio like my natal Moon!
Next, I played around until the Ascent was exactly 22:51 degrees
(drum roll)
resulting in the time of 13:23:13 for my birth. (about an hour off to the time I thought).
Before I stare in shock at the new possible chart:
How accurate is this method do you think? to the minute?
What is the next step? :biggrin:
Click to expand...
the method appears to be accurate
because you then confirmed
PlutorisingLee said:
Oh forgive me please for my scattered mind!
I see what the problem is now!
On the 13th of August it is all as you so clearly illuminated! :biggrin:

But on the 12th of August
I can indeed find a 22 degree Scorpio Ascendant with a 20 degree Virgo Moon!
At 13:23:33 pm.
So now I see this difference in a day makes all the difference.
I know we reached the date of 13th in the calculation...
Click to expand...
13th was the initial day counting 276 days plus twelve hours
however remember we needed to go back slightly more than twelve hours
and if we had rounded it up to a day instead of just twelve hours
we would have got to the 12th in any event
Top marks to petosiris by the way for counting correctly to the 12 August
using Sidereal Aldebaran 15
petosiris methodology is accurate which is good to know
I shall update the rectification thread with that result
for anyone interested
a knowledge of basic rectification is so important
thanks for providing our forum with a working example for reference
PlutorisingLee said:

So now the question is if to stay with reached results of the 13th of August
or to consider the 12th?
Click to expand...


we would be unscientific to not consider the 12th August as a rectified chart :smile:
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

Main Rulerships of 1st House http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html
Life, vitality and health.
Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body.
Older sources note its influence upon the intellect
the way the mind works, and speech.
In general, the first house represents the focal point for the personality
and manner of expression.
As well as describing the physical appearance
the condition of this house and that of its planetary ruler
indicates the level of personal vitality and strength.
PlutorisingLee said:
Thank you for checking.I'm not flushy, ears are smaller (Taurus?)
upper body bony
have a dimple
teeth are regular I guess can't say.
Click to expand...
Dimple is VENUS influence :smile:

assuming chart is rectified to 20 degrees VIRGO ascendant
your natal VENUS is in even closer trine to the rectified ascendant
and
ascendant ruler Mercury is in Venus home TAURUS
possibly accounting for that Venusian dimple
perhaps petosiris may comment on Sidereal influences
that would account for the dimple


 
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PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
Yes thank you petosiris .
I'm excited! Although letting go of my previous chart is strangely hard to do.

assuming chart is rectified to 20 degrees VIRGO ascendant
your natal VENUS is in even closer trine to the rectified ascendant
and
ascendant ruler Mercury is in Venus home TAURUS
possibly accounting for that Venusian dimple
perhaps petosiris may comment on Sidereal influences
that would account for the dimple
Click to expand...
That is very interesting!
I see now Jupiter in Virgo is conjunct the Asc. I always thought of Jupiter here as someone who as tall/big (I'm neither).
And personality wise this seems more optimistic although Jupiter is still located in 12th house so that might account for it.
Additional influences to 1st house are:
Mercury is apposing Moon.
Uranus/Neptune trine Asc?
I feel now I need to study my chart all over again! :innocent:

I admit this chart does seems to better show my love of music/art and foreign culture/philosophy.
 
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