Seeking (ethical) advice for a reading.

I wasn't sure it'd be necessary to answer the ethical question, but here is the chart for the first Saturn return (hopefully I'm attaching it correctly).

Edit: chart removed.
 
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ElenaJ

Well-known member
If you only want a reply to the "ethical" question, then when there is a doubt, don't.
Simple.
Your details gave the impression you were looking for a confirmation, comment, or interpretation of the chart. Sorry.
 
If you only want a reply to the "ethical" question, then when there is a doubt, don't.
Simple.
Your details gave the impression you were looking for a confirmation, comment, or interpretation of the chart. Sorry.

Oh don't get me wrong, any other comments or feedback, including interpretations, are absolutely welcome. It's just that my main concern here is whether the "right" thing to do is being entirely open with all the information I glean from the chart, or holding back certain details so as to avoid causing undue stress. Is this a dilemma that practicing astrologers commonly face?
I'm still curious as to the triple Saturn return. Do all of the returns count, or is it only the first that really matters?
 

ElenaJ

Well-known member
Are you so completely sure of the information and your interpretation of it that you are reading in the chart?
What is the purpose of relating that information to the other person?
Is it just sharing information, or is it an attempt to guide towards healing?
What is your inner motive?
If it is just curiosity to know whether you are correct, there is no need to present it to the person, you can simply put it on this forum and ask for feedback.
You wrote you aren't sure how to interpret the aspect, but you are prepared to give it a negative slant and perhaps present it to your friend, to "prepare" them.
I don't mean to be harsh, but don't you think this is taking a bit much on yourself? The responsibility of the correctness of your interpretation and the responsibility of presenting it to another person, possibly causing them damage. If you do them harm, to later learn your view of the chart was erroneous or incomplete, how will you then excuse this with yourself, and make repairs?
The type of situation you describe requires not only an examination of the natal chart and transits, but the progressed chart, midpoints, as well as other returns not limited to the Saturn return. And perhaps asteroids as well.
Please, please think carefully about what you are doing.
Remember the medical oath, first of all to do no harm.
 
Are you so completely sure of the information and your interpretation of it that you are reading in the chart?
What is the purpose of relating that information to the other person?
Is it just sharing information, or is it an attempt to guide towards healing?
What is your inner motive?
If it is just curiosity to know whether you are correct, there is no need to present it to the person, you can simply put it on this forum and ask for feedback.
You wrote you aren't sure how to interpret the aspect, but you are prepared to give it a negative slant and perhaps present it to your friend, to "prepare" them.
I don't mean to be harsh, but don't you think this is taking a bit much on yourself? The responsibility of the correctness of your interpretation and the responsibility of presenting it to another person, possibly causing them damage. If you do them harm, to later learn your view of the chart was erroneous or incomplete, how will you then excuse this with yourself, and make repairs?
The type of situation you describe requires not only an examination of the natal chart and transits, but the progressed chart, midpoints, as well as other returns not limited to the Saturn return. And perhaps asteroids as well.
Please, please think carefully about what you are doing.
Remember the medical oath, first of all to do no harm.

I don't think you're understanding my intentions here, or my reasons for posting, but this may well be a failure in communication on my part. That said, you seem to be perceiving that I'm inclining myself toward negative interpretations, and that I'm being reckless about how I read the chart in the first place. The mere fact that I'm posting here to seek advice and information should show you that I'm not.
Let me call your attention to what I said in my first post, that I'm fully aware that there are other ways to interpret the transit in question. What I mentioned is simply what stood out to me most strongly, but it is not the only thing I saw. The way that I would present any interpretation would be to include any and all of the possibilities I detect for the chart factor in question, with emphasis on the interpretations that are most relevant to the person's situation. In other words, sharing both the best and worst possibilities with them, without being fatalistic in any sense. This is my mindset and my method, but both are still evolving.
As for my purpose behind this, I said that in the first post: I am practicing and learning, primarily, which is also why I posted here for advice. My friend did ask me specifically to dig further into her charts as well, so there is a secondary counseling motive here, but I have told my friend before this to take my interpretations with a grain of salt, as I am not an expert or professional.
I have no intention of giving my friend a bunch of doom-and-gloom interpretations, but I feel that being all sunshine-and-rainbows would be just as deceptive and damaging.
That is the source of my internal debate. Even if there are other, more positive interpretations, the possibility of accidents, illness, or death involving someone's children is an intensely heavy one. Thus, my dilemma: is it better to be open about this one small part of the full chart reading, thus turning her attention to the health and safety of her children in the coming year? Or is such a detail more likely to make a parent linger and obsess over the possibility in a way that is damaging? So I posted here hoping for others who have encountered similar circumstances in their readings to share their perspectives and experiences.
That said, I've paid very close attention to your reply and the advice contained therein, and I do find it very, very helpful. I know I still have a LOT to learn, and there are plenty of areas in this field where I have little experience. I hope I'm not coming off as defensive here, as I'm taking your advice to heart -- but parts of it felt less like guidance and more like a slap on the wrist . Though perhaps that in itself is a form of guidance which I also needed. You have indeed made it clear to me that there is much more to take into account when it comes to predictive astrology, and you've effectively reminded me to prioritize clarity and certainty over vague possibility.
Thank you again for your reply. I promise that I will proceed with caution and do my best to avoid overstepping my abilities.
 

ElenaJ

Well-known member
Sorry, you still seem convinced that your interpretation is solid, and you are only concerned with whether or not to present it to your friend.

"In any case, what stood out to me here was the sixth house being associated with accidents and health problems, the fifth house with children, and Pluto with some illnesses and death."

The 6th house concerns health matters, it also concerns work, daily work, work environment, co-workers.
The 5th house has to do with romance and creativity.
Pluto has to do with transformation, change, renewal.
So, your friend may find her work situation changed in some way, perhaps be commissioned to do a book or creative project on health issues. Your friend may start a new job through which she will meet a romantic partner, who is a twin soul. Your friend may redo her work station in a more creative way, that will transform her thinking about her work. Your friend may come into contact with a new co-worker who will regenerate her creativity, or maybe find love with them.
And on and on and on.

You are basing a dire worrisome interpretation on some very vague elements, not connecting them to the charts I listed earlier that will help better identify the situation.
I wasn't slapping your wrist before, but now I am.
You are playing with another person's psycho. Go slow. Do no harm. Please.
Study more, be better better prepared, if you really want to do something helpful.
In the meantime, please, for heaven's sake, hold your tongue.
If you would like to have some insight from others about the chart(s) then post them, not just one of three Saturn returns that don't link up to anything.
Is this more clear?
Sorry about this, but I'm not sure I am getting through to you.
 
Sorry, you still seem convinced that your interpretation is solid, and you are only concerned with whether or not to present it to your friend.

"In any case, what stood out to me here was the sixth house being associated with accidents and health problems, the fifth house with children, and Pluto with some illnesses and death."

The 6th house concerns health matters, it also concerns work, daily work, work environment, co-workers.
The 5th house has to do with romance and creativity.
Pluto has to do with transformation, change, renewal.
So, your friend may find her work situation changed in some way, perhaps be commissioned to do a book or creative project on health issues. Your friend may start a new job through which she will meet a romantic partner, who is a twin soul. Your friend may redo her work station in a more creative way, that will transform her thinking about her work. Your friend may come into contact with a new co-worker who will regenerate her creativity, or maybe find love with them.
And on and on and on.

You are basing a dire worrisome interpretation on some very vague elements, not connecting them to the charts I listed earlier that will help better identify the situation.
I wasn't slapping your wrist before, but now I am.
You are playing with another person's psycho. Go slow. Do no harm. Please.
Study more, be better better prepared, if you really want to do something helpful.
In the meantime, please, for heaven's sake, hold your tongue.
If you would like to have some insight from others about the chart(s) then post them, not just one of three Saturn returns that don't link up to anything.
Is this more clear?
Sorry about this, but I'm not sure I am getting through to you.

No, no... you have gotten through to me, entirely. I, however, don't feel as though my own statements have been clear enough to you. I am not convinced that my interpretation is solid, I questioned it in the first place, and that's what brought me here. When the interpretation first occurred to me, I slammed my foot on the brakes, so to speak, and sought clarification so as to avoid giving a false, damaging interpretation. I'm trying to learn both about the technical aspects of astrology as well as the ethics involved, and to keep a clear outlook to recognize when I'm doing something wrong.
Just to make sure you know I'm listening to you, I am going to be canceling the Saturn return reading for the time being, keeping my attention on the natal chart while I also study more deeply into the finer points of predictive astrology. I will probably return at a later time for further advice on the subject when I've bolstered my own knowledge, though whether it will be for the same reading remains to be seen. For now though, I will absolutely be slowing down and holding my tongue, as you say.
I got your message loud and clear, but I feel as though I've been misunderstood from my very first post. It's a little difficult not to take that personally, but I don't think you meant to be as critical as I perceived. I apologize for my part in this misunderstanding and thank you again for setting me straight.

Edit: I also want to mention that the other interpretations you provided for the houses and Pluto are things I'm aware of and that would have been included in my reading. However, I acknowledge now that the reading was flawed from the start, so regardless of whether my interpretations were positive, negative, or both, they would have stood on very unstable ground.
 
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freeadia

Member
If I would be in your place, I would never predict certain facts, I would never mention the word death, not even as a posibility. I cannot see all the possibilities that a situation may unfold, so less is more, in this case. We all have an in-build sensor for drama and we feed the bad wolf thinking that atack is the best defense, but we become the bad wolf. Instead I would describe astrological circumstances, emphasizing on symbolism. Like, for Pluto: change, struggle with old habits, with emotional stress, with hopelesness, dillema, compulsive desires, renew values, renew hope, sacrifice, sex life, hidden resources, etc. Saturn: career, work, public image, relation with authorities, discipline, social life, social responsibilities and groups, health, interaction with law, management of time, authoritative figures in family, etc. I would combine these with the symbolism of the house that is involved, and depending on how deep I am willling to go, I may search for aspects with progressed planets, aspects with the governor of the sign that is transited and with the lord of the house, the symbolism of the astrological degree, the predominance of elements and anything that I might consider to be a clue for the recipient to attain awareness about the circumstances.

As already mentioned, there are many facets of the symbolism for each of these cosmic bodies. You should have a clean input, only astrological, when you make predictions. It may be a big tentation to use non-astrological data about a person, but this lead to failure of the reading because I think that the astrological reading is to stimulate one's self-knowledge and to sensitize one's conscious mind to the dynamic of his/her reasons, feelings, expectations, fears, desires, qualities and weaknesses as reflected by corresponding planetary configuration.

If you believe in predestination, you will unconsciously project this on the recipient of your prediction, will use words that sound like sentences.
If you believe in choices and possibilities, you will see predipositions, patterns-in-construction as fractals and emerging dimensions in the perpetuum-movement of energy, where the mind finds its concepts as flames, repeating echoes of original thoughts, because of the spirit that is in love with existence like a dancer with his dance. Then, you may use words that shape the reality in its becoming nature.

I am a doubtful amateur of astrology and a poet and I speak from my ignorance, so please take these words with caution.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Let me start off by saying that
I am not a professional, practicing astrologer, but
a developing amateur.


Lately I've been doing some casual readings for a friend
as a way to practice and learn through feedback.
I'm currently working on a reading for her Saturn return, but
I noticed something about another transit in the return chart
and am trying to figure out
the right way to go about interpreting it.
No charts to post?
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Specifically, transiting Pluto will be in her natal sixth house and the transiting fifth. Now, I know that there are many themes associated with these houses and with Pluto, and therefore there are many different ways to interpret this transit. Furthermore, I'm still unclear as to how important transit houses are compared to natal houses. In any case, what stood out to me here was the sixth house being associated with accidents and health problems, the fifth house with children, and Pluto with some illnesses and death.
For a little context, the friend in question does have children, the youngest of which was born with health issues (not sure if it's appropriate to specify without my friend's knowledge) and has spent the last two years in and out of the hospital.
So, what I'm struggling with is, should I include this interpretation in the reading as a means of preparing her, if I emphasize that it is ONLY a possibility among many possibilities? Or would it be more prudent to exclude this bit from the final reading?
A bit more info about the transit: Pluto is in retrograde, conjunct Jupiter, and Jupiter is conjunct Saturn, which is opposite natal Jupiter (retrograde in the first house); all of the transit action occurs close to the natal Descendant and natal North Node.

A separate question, still related to the Saturn return chart: My friend will be experiencing three Saturn returns between May and January due to Saturn going retrograde and then back again. What is the significance of this, if any? Is the first Saturn return of the utmost importance, or do the others that follow have an equal bearing?

Thanks ahead of time for any guidance I receive here.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Are you so completely sure of the information

and your interpretation of it that you are reading in the chart?
Quite :smile:

keep in mind that
horoscopic astrology requires a reliable time of birth
What is the purpose of relating that information to the other person?
Is it just sharing information, or is it an attempt to guide towards healing?
What is your inner motive?
If it is just curiosity to know whether you are correct, there is no need to present it to the person, you can simply put it on this forum and ask for feedback.
You wrote you aren't sure how to interpret the aspect, but you are prepared to give it a negative slant and perhaps present it to your friend, to "prepare" them.
I don't mean to be harsh, but don't you think this is taking a bit much on yourself? The responsibility of the correctness of your interpretation and the responsibility of presenting it to another person, possibly causing them damage. If you do them harm, to later learn your view of the chart was erroneous or incomplete, how will you then excuse this with yourself, and make repairs?
The type of situation you describe requires not only an examination of the natal chart and transits, but the progressed chart, midpoints, as well as other returns not limited to the Saturn return. And perhaps asteroids as well.
Please, please think carefully about what you are doing.
Remember the medical oath, first of all to do no harm.
 
If I would be in your place, I would never predict certain facts, I would never mention the word death, not even as a posibility. I cannot see all the possibilities that a situation may unfold, so less is more, in this case. We all have an in-build sensor for drama and we feed the bad wolf thinking that atack is the best defense, but we become the bad wolf. Instead I would describe astrological circumstances, emphasizing on symbolism. Like, for Pluto: change, struggle with old habits, with emotional stress, with hopelesness, dillema, compulsive desires, renew values, renew hope, sacrifice, sex life, hidden resources, etc. Saturn: career, work, public image, relation with authorities, discipline, social life, social responsibilities and groups, health, interaction with law, management of time, authoritative figures in family, etc. I would combine these with the symbolism of the house that is involved, and depending on how deep I am willling to go, I may search for aspects with progressed planets, aspects with the governor of the sign that is transited and with the lord of the house, the symbolism of the astrological degree, the predominance of elements and anything that I might consider to be a clue for the recipient to attain awareness about the circumstances.

As already mentioned, there are many facets of the symbolism for each of these cosmic bodies. You should have a clean input, only astrological, when you make predictions. It may be a big tentation to use non-astrological data about a person, but this lead to failure of the reading because I think that the astrological reading is to stimulate one's self-knowledge and to sensitize one's conscious mind to the dynamic of his/her reasons, feelings, expectations, fears, desires, qualities and weaknesses as reflected by corresponding planetary configuration.

If you believe in predestination, you will unconsciously project this on the recipient of your prediction, will use words that sound like sentences.
If you believe in choices and possibilities, you will see predipositions, patterns-in-construction as fractals and emerging dimensions in the perpetuum-movement of energy, where the mind finds its concepts as flames, repeating echoes of original thoughts, because of the spirit that is in love with existence like a dancer with his dance. Then, you may use words that shape the reality in its becoming nature.

I am a doubtful amateur of astrology and a poet and I speak from my ignorance, so please take these words with caution.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. You've added more layers to the solid advice Elena already gave me, and did so without making me feel like I was being accused of ignorance and irresponsibility.
I appreciate both equally, but I have to say that this post feels like aloe vera, whereas the previous ones felt more like salt and lemon juice.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Sorry, you still seem convinced that your interpretation is solid, and

you are only concerned with whether or not to present it to your friend.
fact is astrologers frequntly disagree :smile:

there is no consensus

"In any case, what stood out to me here was the sixth house being associated with accidents and health problems, the fifth house with children, and Pluto with some illnesses and death."

The 6th house concerns health matters, it also concerns work, daily work, work environment, co-workers.
The 5th house has to do with romance and creativity.
Pluto has to do with transformation, change, renewal.
So, your friend may find her work situation changed in some way, perhaps be commissioned to do a book or creative project on health issues. Your friend may start a new job through which she will meet a romantic partner, who is a twin soul. Your friend may redo her work station in a more creative way, that will transform her thinking about her work. Your friend may come into contact with a new co-worker who will regenerate her creativity, or maybe find love with them.
And on and on and on.

You are basing a dire worrisome interpretation on some very vague elements, not connecting them to the charts I listed earlier that will help better identify the situation.
I wasn't slapping your wrist before, but now I am.
You are playing with another person's psycho. Go slow. Do no harm. Please.
Study more, be better better prepared, if you really want to do something helpful.
In the meantime, please, for heaven's sake, hold your tongue.
If you would like to have some insight from others about the chart(s) then post them, not just one of three Saturn returns that don't link up to anything.
Is this more clear?
Sorry about this, but I'm not sure I am getting through to you.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
No, no... you have gotten through to me, entirely. I, however, don't feel as though my own statements have been clear enough to you.

I am not convinced that my interpretation is solid,

I questioned it in the first place, and

that's what brought me here.
members are given the designation "Senior Member"
after posting a certain number of comments
not that many

keep in mind that because ours is an astrological learning forum

where members practice astrological skills free :smile:
no one is paid therefore responses to threads
are often from members who are beginners like yourself
with little or no experience
keen to learn by practice
members are encouraged to discuss interpreting their own charts to learn by practice
we also have members with many years of astrological study completed
members have day jobs
and those of our members who are professionals
do not provide a complete professional reading for free


When the interpretation first occurred to me, I slammed my foot on the brakes, so to speak, and sought clarification so as to avoid giving a false, damaging interpretation. I'm trying to learn both about the technical aspects of astrology as well as the ethics involved, and to keep a clear outlook to recognize when I'm doing something wrong.
Just to make sure you know I'm listening to you, I am going to be canceling the Saturn return reading for the time being, keeping my attention on the natal chart while I also study more deeply into the finer points of predictive astrology. I will probably return at a later time for further advice on the subject when I've bolstered my own knowledge, though whether it will be for the same reading remains to be seen. For now though, I will absolutely be slowing down and holding my tongue, as you say.
I got your message loud and clear, but I feel as though I've been misunderstood from my very first post. It's a little difficult not to take that personally, but I don't think you meant to be as critical as I perceived. I apologize for my part in this misunderstanding and thank you again for setting me straight.

Edit: I also want to mention that the other interpretations you provided for the houses and Pluto are things I'm aware of and that would have been included in my reading. However, I acknowledge now that the reading was flawed from the start, so regardless of whether my interpretations were positive, negative, or both, they would have stood on very unstable ground.
 
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