Is it true traditional astrologers exclude modern planets?

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I notice the more esoteric beliefs of the Mayans are usually ignored in favor of their Astronomy and Mathematics. I doubt they were Atheistic, Modern-scientists. They probably had a version of Astrology as well. They were tracking Precession using the first point of the Winter Solstice in the Northern Hemisphere, rather than the Tropical first point of the Spring Equinox most are using today.
The+Maya+Continued%E2%80%A6.jpg
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The materialistic view of the Mayans is preferred by Historians.
Maybe they kept their esoteric knowledge a closely guarded secret, now lost.
QUOTE of BobZemco's forum signature :smile:
Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said,
"The science of Astrology is a great secret.
It should be guarded with care.
This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people.
Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently.
It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve
and have the necessary qualifications."
 

muchacho

Well-known member
I think you're doing both astrology and psychology a disservice if you're just pushing a psychological agenda and using the planets as a cover. If you want to be a psychologist, then be one. Don't pretend to be an astrologer whilst handing out psychological advice.
FYI, there are actually psychotherapists who successfully use astrology as a counseling tool.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
I don't see how a chart could possibly show "that Neptune rules Pisces." (A chart couldn't possibly show that Mercury rules Gemini, for that matter.)

Actually it can be easily proven:

Consider a relationship Horary chart such as this one, with the querent represented by Gemini and its ruling planet Mercury. There are also plenty of similar ones posted in the forum daily:https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113395

By a general rule in Horary technique, it is very usual to find either the ruler of the 1st house or the Moon in the houses or signs of the planet ruling the quesited. In fact a number of techniques are used according to this. For example Lilly writes in CA:

Which love most, or desire it most.
The lord of the 7th in the Ascenant, the party desired loveth best; The lord of the Ascendant in the 7th, the Querent loveth best.

If you go to many examples, during many horary charts, you will notice this pattern repeats itself very often, with the "alleged" ruler of the querent pointing to the sign or house of the quesited. So it seems that the traditional rulerships from the table of dignities are correct, considering that the 1st house ruler can usually be found in some sort of relation (aspect, house or sign) with the quesited.

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member

What do you think of Mr. Guinard proposed house system?


Dominion, or the System of 8 Houses

Here is an alternative proposal (8 house system) by Cyril Fagan:

Cyril Fagan: The Oktotopos
Past discussions on the topic include

Hi everyone. I'm still in the process of writing my book, so haven't had time to come on the forum much this year.
I'm trying to find out something about the 8-sign zodiac which was used at some point in the past
- perhaps in Egypt, I'm not sure.
I'm mostly interested in getting a brief description
of what each of the 8 signs in that system was thought to represent.

Any help much appreciated, Best wishes,

Do you mean the oktatopon
, because
otherwise I have never heard of an 8 sign zodiac.
Do you have a source for it?

Rumen Kolev has written papers on this subject
and has even written software with modules for the study
including amongst many other interesting options, the Oktatopon Konrad has mentioned :smile:
- Rumen Kolev's website provides an email address
and here's a link to a page illustrating the software
http://www.babylonianastrology.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=43

QUOTE:

'…..containing many modules for research in
Ancient Mesopotamian Astrology as practiced from 5,500 BC to AD 75.
The Babylonian Zodiac,
The Sphaera Hermetica,
The Celestial Pentagram of Venus,
The Circle of Petosiris,
The Oktatopon,
Heliacal Calendar,
Paranatellonta,
Parapegma,
Heliacal phases of stars and planets,
2D images of the zodiac with the stars,
The Hermetic Zodiac with all 3 kinds of projection of the stars (simple, paranatellonta and ortus).....'


'….Ancient Mesopotamian Astrology, according to the tradition, is coming directly
from the illumination of the first Hermes, the prophet Enoh
Lord Enmeduranki from pre-diluvial Sippar in 5,500 BC.
Being behind the mist of 7,500 years, we can see
but only the outlines of that Original Astral Revelation.
However, drawing from Akkadian texts, we can completely recreate
the last reconstruction made by the third Hermes in around 770 BC. ….'

 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Yes, I meant his substantial astrological contributions.


in fact
Ptolemy
'compiled'
and while doing so
Ptolemy altered techniques according to personal prejudice/whim
and Ptolemy, mathematician/astronomer
not a practicing astrologer
had a different rationale/perspective
to that of a working astrologer.
Ptolemy doesn't talk very much about people of his own time
instead he talks about observations made centuries earlier by Hipparchus
another great astronomer
- Observations used by Ptolemy are largely Babylonian via Hipparchus

And it was Hipparchus who, a century after Apollonius
began applying the Apollonian geometry
in the first attempt to describe the movements of the heavenly spheres geometrically.
Hipparchus
took the first steps
in attempting to make the Apollonian geometry fit the appearances of the heavens
- particularly in relation to the moon and the sun

- by developing those moving circles
as a technique for dealing with the confusing appearances of the heavens

Ptolemy then expanded on the original ideas of both his predecessors
Apollonius and Hipparchus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Perga

Thus Ptolemy described a rationale that 'explained' retrograde motion
- but incorrectly
-
(because the planets do not move with uniform circular motion in circles
Ptolemy's mathematically appealing idea of the universe is incorrect :smile:

 

Michael

Well-known member
Ptolemy was the most influential astrologer in history, because he was a reformer of the Hellenistic tradition. He was not a traditionalist like Dorotheus or Vettius Valens. His contributions to astronomy and astrology are significant. Your complaints are well known and petty minded.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Yes, I meant his substantial astrological contributions.

Ptolemy, like all those making measurements of planetary positions, was working from a Geocentric perspective. Copernicus proposed the Heliocentric model, but with orbits that were PERFECT CIRCLES. With perfectly circular orbits, Ptolemy's Geocentric model was still the simpler of the two for making the actual calculations. Once Kepler discovered the Three Laws of Planetary Motion, the extreme simplicity ("elegance") of the Heliocentric model gave it supremacy over all Geocentric models.
Nevertheless, Astrology is a Geocentric coordinate system, wherein we can accept the Heliocentric model as an alternative perspective, and apply its accurate calculations from within the Geocentric Astrological framework. Modern Astronomers do this within their system of "Right ascension", which is a Geocentric format that makes locating celestial objects from the Earth, based on Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), extremely convenient. If you're planning on visually locating Planets and stars yourself, I would recommend using Right ascension.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Ptolemy was the most influential astrologer in history, because he was a reformer of the Hellenistic tradition.
He was not a traditionalist like Dorotheus or Vettius Valens.
His contributions to astronomy and astrology are significant.
Your complaints are well known and petty minded.
PTOLEMYS WRONG THEORY OF RETROGRADATION :smile:

Ptolemy+%2885-165+AD%29+In+AD+140+the+Greek+astronomer+Ptolemy+revised+the+geocentric+model+to+explain+all+the+planetary+motions..jpg
 

david starling

Well-known member
As a sidenote, the Ancient Greek religious beliefs included the Circle as the perfect two-dimensional form, and the Sphere as perfect in three dimensions. The word "ellipse" literally meant "imperfect". So, they would probably have rejected Kepler's elliptical orbit model based on their religious concept that the Heavens can be nothing less than "Perfect".
 

david starling

Well-known member
The "Music of the Spheres" concept regarding Planetary orbits from the Geocentric perspective, goes back to Pythagoras. Ptolemy's Geocentric system was a variation on previous such models, in an attempt to improve on the accuracy of celestial calculations.
 

Michael

Well-known member
Jupiter, you need to study history of science. Of course Ptolemy made a "mistake" in his model. He didn't have the tools or knowledge we have now. Please read a little before copying and pasting the same graphic again.

Regarding the 8th house model. It's is old, it was proposed by Tycho Brahe and used by Nicholas Culpeper. The original Babylonian Zodiac had 14th (not 8th signs). It was later reduced to 12th.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Jupiter, you need to study history of science.

Of course Ptolemy made a mistake in his model.

He didn't have the tools or knowledge we have now.


Please read a little before copying and pasting the same graphic again.

Regarding the 8th house model. It's is old, it was proposed by Tycho Brahe and used by Nicholas Culpeper. The original Babylonian Zodiac had 14th (not 8th signs). It was later reduced to 12th.
What do you think of Mr. Guinard proposed house system?

Dominion, or the System of 8 Houses

Here is an alternative proposal (8 house system) by Cyril Fagan:


Cyril Fagan: The Oktotopos


06-11-2013, 09:44 PM
BobZemco
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: On a web-site far, far away...
Posts: 2,137
Re: The 8 sign zodiac - looking for info about it
Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar
Hi everyone. I'm still in the process of writing my book, so haven't had time to come on the forum much this year. I'm trying to find out something about the 8-sign zodiac which was used at some point in the past - perhaps in Egypt, I'm not sure. I'm mostly interested in getting a brief description of what each of the 8 signs in that system was thought to represent.

Beware strange web-sites foisting bizarre theories on the unsuspecting.

This is just a misunderstanding by people who couldn't figure out the doctrine brought to us by an Eastern Greek....as opposed to the stupid Western Greeks. Eastern Greeks -- we're talking Lydians and Phrygians here...lived in Central Anatolia....yeah, modern Turkey.

Eastern Greeks were a conduit for information from Mesopotamia via the Sumerians. The Eastern Greeks passed on knowledge in math, science, astronomy and astrology first from the Amorites (mistakenly referred to as "Babylonians") and later from the Babylonians (mistakenly referred to as "Chaldeans") to the nucleus of what would later become "Western Civilization".....

This Eastern Greek -- Nechepso was his name -- espoused a doctrine of 8 power regions in the Chart, and you know them as Angular and Succeedent Houses/Signs.

That, is the source of the 8-Sign Zodiac Nonsense, in spite of the fact that Nechepso never said there were 8-Signs, rather he said there were 8 regions of power in the Chart.

Keywords are "Willing" (Angular), "Hoping" (Succeedent) and "Receding" (Cadent).

This doctrine impacts Natal, Mundane, Revolution, Horary and Electional Astrology.

A Planet will do whatever it will do....good or bad....if in one of the 8 power regions. Naturally, a Planet's condition will affect its ability to do whatever it will do.

This doctrine caused some confusion, leading some of the later astrologers, mostly Hellenistic --- like Dorotheus, but even Zael used it, to adopt the 7-Sign/House System of power, which was the 1st, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th and 12th Houses/Signs.

Surely you can see the confusion --- the MC can fall in the 9th, 10th or 11th House/Sign, and so how can you have a king with a 9th House MC or MC Ruler in the 9th?

And what about the 2nd House of Wealth?

That leads to weird things like the 15° Rule )Ptolemy) where a Planet within 15° of the Ascendant (or MC) is considered to be in the Asc/MC.

That's what happens when subtle (and not so subtle) nuances get lost with the transmission of knowledge over time. I don't think Nechepso & Co or Ptolemy & Co are necessarily wrong....in fact, I'm not even sure they were talking about the same thing, and there's every indication that the Asc/MC were treated separate and apart from the House/Signs.

Even so, they all still pretty much say the same thing, that there's a distinction between looking at the Chart as a whole, and looking at Topics.

Suppose the Chart Ruler is in the 7th House....that's Angular, and (assuming it is otherwise in good condition) you could conclude that nearly all of what the Chart promises will be fulfilled --- it's just a matter of determining when (use Profections and Revolutions).

Now suppose the Chart Ruler is also the Wealth Ruler.....would you draw the same conclusion?

No....it's Angular in the Chart, but not to the Topic of Wealth....the 7th House would be Cadent to the 2nd House/Sign, and in fact the Topic Ruler can't even "see" the House/Sign it rules, and so it is powerless to do anything, regardless of its condition.

You can also view it as Public (Angular), semi-Private/semi-Public (Succeedent) and Private (Cadent).

Are all powerful men and women in the spotlight? On stage? In the news?

No....well, then you might want to look and see where the Topic Ruler (in the this instance the MC Ruler) is located. Same for those who have wealth...of any kind...how many times have you seen the modest person....only to discover much later that they have a rather fair amount of wealth (to a lot of wealth)?

You can also view look at those power regions in terms of "longevity." Some people retain their wealth and/or health their whole lives, while others see their health/wealth fade with age....or lose their friends....don't age gracefully....have fewer enemies....fewer employees...their power fades....their zeal for things religious, ideological, educational or philosophical wanes.

You're looking at something Cadent in the Chart; if not the Topic Ruler, then the Lot; or a Succeedent Topic Ruler/Cadent Lot; a Cadent Lot Ruler; an Angular Ruler but in poor condition with the Lot or Lot Ruler Cadent....it's there.

Anyway, if you want to research astrology, especially ancient astrology, then I would suggest the proper venue is a library -- like a university library, and not the internet


__________________
Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to BobZemco For This Useful Post:
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