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  #26  
Unread 12-07-2007, 06:18 AM
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Re: this discussion is about the difference, to Green

tim,

thanks for explaining, wasnt sure if there was much othr difference.....your good at this job, helping us all out!

Thankfully
LG

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  #27  
Unread 12-07-2007, 07:05 AM
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Re: this discussion is about the difference, to Green

Quote:
And, as a traditionalist, Kaiousei insists that the effects of the Uranus (and other "outer" planets) are mainly generational effects and have little or no personal effect, so are of no or very little importance in birth charts.
No no no. Kaiousei (as someone who likes to mix Traditonal and Modern) insists that the Outer planets are not personal unless made personal by placement and aspect. My Pluto in Scorpio tells people absolutely nothing about me, except that I was born within that 13 year period Pluto was in Scorpio. Now, upon closer examination, you find Pluto Squaring Sol and Luna, this makes Pluto (the otherwise generational and Outer planet), personal to me as Pluto is not Squaring everyone's Sol and Luna.
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  #28  
Unread 12-07-2007, 02:22 PM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Gaer:

Quote:
I don't accept every idea that has been, in my opinion, sometimes blindly accepted simply because astrologer A or B declared it so. I'm going to test things (this is part of Saturn too, find the limitations), but I'm going to go wherever my ideas lead me (freedom), which you may associate with Uranus. So I see no problem whatsoever in seriously thinking about how Saturn relates to Aquarius.
I very much agree with your thoughts quoted above.

As a person who has Mercury conjunct Saturn and both trine Uranus, all I can say is that I don't consider myself either strictly traditional or strictly modern. I like to test things to see if they work and if they do, then I bring them in to my own astrological book. What does that make me? Mmmm...Definitely eclectic. But then, I don't like labels!


Carole
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  #29  
Unread 12-07-2007, 03:41 PM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee
I guess one of the main differences is rulers used. Traditional uses Saturn as co-ruler of Aquarius and Mars as co-ruler of Scorpio.

Which would give a different interpretation.
If you concentrate on a certain house ruler, and give Saturn the weight instead of say, Uranus - you will come up with a different and most likely wrong interpretation.
I guess this is where an astrologer's best intuition comes in. I sometimes will look at Saturn when dealing with an Aquarius issue, or Mars for Scorpio. Sometimes I don't. I let my gut feeling guide me on what's important in that chart and what's not.
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  #30  
Unread 12-08-2007, 05:32 AM
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Pluto in Scorpio, to Kaiousei

Kaiousei,

You said:
Quote:
My Pluto in Scorpio tells people absolutely nothing about me
A modernist would say that a person with Scorpio (transformation, also control, power, research) modifying Pluto (transformation, also control, power, research) would have a strong need to gain power and influence wherever they are and need to be in control of all situations. It also suggests a deep need to research things. And that seems to apply here!

Plutonically yours,

Tim
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  #31  
Unread 12-08-2007, 05:06 PM
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Re: Pluto in Scorpio, to Kaiousei

Me and everyone else born within 13 years of me.

However, is it really Pluto in Scorpio that does that? Or am I that way because he Squares my Lights? The keywords you supplied for Scorpio and Pluto were exactly the same, so it seems it's one of those toss-ups. When it's something like this it's hard to break it apart.
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  #32  
Unread 12-08-2007, 06:09 PM
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sensitivity, to Kaiousei

Kaiousei,

You said:
Quote:
However, is it really Pluto in Scorpio that does that? Or am I that way because he Squares my Lights?
This goes back to an important point I raised earlier: signs DO matter with the "outer" planets...but people don't have the same sensitivity to the effect of the signs. Those with the "outer" planet signs placed on one of the 4 major points of the chart (i.e., Ascendant, Descendant, Midheaven, and IC) will be VERY sensitive to the sign and planet energy. For the other people (with the "outer" planets in areas of the chart that aren't emphasized) they are much less aware of the sign energy of the "outer" planet. But it IS there all the same...the people simply aren't aware of it.

Another way people can become aware of the power of signs in the "outer" planets is when there is an out-of-sign conjunction, such as Virgo modifying Uranus conjunct Libra modifying Mars. In this case the Virgo energy of the Uranus "fights" with the Libra energy: the Virgo side wants to have a routine while the Libra side wants a relationship of some sorts. This means the person has to find a way to "make peace" between Virgo and Libra energies in their life.

So it comes down to a level of people's awareness of the sign's effect on their "outer" planets. Some are more aware, and some much less so. However, an astrologer can bring a person's attention to the sign of their "outer" planets and how it affects them, so they use them effectively. Obviously, in your case, you are very aware how to combine sign and planet to use it most effectively, as you have shown many times on the forum...but other people are not so aware and so need an astrologer to "show" them their sign energy so they can use it effectively in their life.

Signing off,

Tim
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  #33  
Unread 12-08-2007, 06:17 PM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carole
Gaer:



I very much agree with your thoughts quoted above.

As a person who has Mercury conjunct Saturn and both trine Uranus, all I can say is that I don't consider myself either strictly traditional or strictly modern. I like to test things to see if they work and if they do, then I bring them in to my own astrological book. What does that make me? Mmmm...Definitely eclectic. But then, I don't like labels!


Carole
Carole, I don't like labels either. When people ask me if I am a Modern or a Traditonal person, I simply say: I'm Practical.

In other words, I want things to work, and they have to work according to my own personal experience!

g
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  #34  
Unread 12-08-2007, 06:19 PM
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Traditional rulers, to all

To all,

I do use traditional rulers in charts as well as modern rulers.

Traditionally modern,

Tim
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  #35  
Unread 12-08-2007, 06:43 PM
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Re: Traditional rulers, to all

Quote:
Those with the "outer" planet signs placed on one of the 4 major points of the chart (i.e., Ascendant, Descendant, Midheaven, and IC) will be VERY sensitive to the sign and planet energy.
Aquarius, Pisces, and Scorpio? Or the Sign the Outer is in?

This is where I've got to disagree personally. I don't feel Uranus in Capricorn, Neptune in Capricorn, or Pluto in Scorpio. I do feel Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto though. Uranus is on my MC, Neptune tightly Trines Venus, and Pluto Squares my Lights. Now, these things I feel and I could give a multitude of examples for how and why and where I feel them. Would there be a difference if say...Pluto was Squared from Taurus instead of Scorpio or Neptune was Trine was from Taurus instead of Capricorn? I don't think so, except that the 'where' of houses would change. They would jump from my Eighth and Tenth to my Second. (Heh...the idea of Neptune and Pluto jumping. ^.^)

Also, your posting about Pluto and Scorpio reflected what is another weakness of Modern astrology. Apparently Neptune exploded all over it and there are no lines or distinctions between planets and Signs. Basically; where does Scorpio end and Pluto begin?
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  #36  
Unread 12-08-2007, 07:40 PM
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Re: sensitivity, to Kaiousei

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc
This goes back to an important point I raised earlier: signs DO matter with the "outer" planets...but people don't have the same sensitivity to the effect of the signs. Those with the "outer" planet signs placed on one of the 4 major points of the chart (i.e., Ascendant, Descendant, Midheaven, and IC) will be VERY sensitive to the sign and planet energy.
But Tim, the moment we consider the outer signs conjunct one of the angles, especially when the conjunction is really close, that becomes very personal, since only people with the same AC will have an outer in the same degree of the same sign in that same place.

To me personal has to do with how many people share the same "detail" in a chart.

"Personal" is a very relative term. Suppose we consider just Pluto.

Pluto in Leo, is about as "generational" as it can be.

(It was in Leo part of 1939, all of 1940 to all of 1955, most of 1956, about eight months 1957, and finally very briefly 1958).

That's most of a period lasting more than 15 years. What does anyone know about me so far if they know I have Pluto in Leo? Only that I was born during that period.

How about Pluto in Leo square Mars in Scorpio? Even so, that square can last a fairly long time when Mars is moving slowly, and the that square occured about every 26 months during the whole Pluto in Leo cycle. Still not too personal. But at least I know that only a few people born close to my birth have Mars in Scorpio.

Pluto in the 12th? A bit more personal, since I will share that with perhaps one person in 12.

More personal: 12th house cusp is Leo.

Finally, Pluto in Leo in the 12th, square Mars in Scorpio in the 3rd is something you might have to look through a lot of charts to find, and adding other planets in signs and other aspects finally makes everything unique.

We all know this. So I think our discussion is becoming totally circular.

The position of the Moon in any sign, by itself, is somewhat personal, since it is shared by one in 12 people. In a specific degree of a sign, shared by only one person in 360.

I don't even want to THINK about how many people are born while Pluto makes its way through one degree of one sign. Those who are saying that the "outers" are not felt personally in the same way as the "inners" are simply expressing this point—in my opinion.

Gaer
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Last edited by gaer; 12-08-2007 at 07:46 PM.
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  #37  
Unread 12-09-2007, 11:57 AM
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Re: sensitivity, to Kaiousei

Hello friends! It is Sunday and that gives me time to look over other threads and I found this one, which I thoroughly like. I have seen that Kaiousei does not want to use sign rulers. I personally do think that signs greatly influence the basic energy of the Planet . A Pluto in Leo will take on Leonic traits, is more of a despot than say, a Pluto in Pisces where it's destructive qualities (face it) sort of swim into all directions and diminishes it's powers. Pluto in Virgo gets terribly nitty gritty, obsessively clean in many cases and critical, Pluto in Libra, very possessive in relationships or a formidable mediator and so on and so forth. I always look at the background because that background shows me how that planet is likely to use it's energies.
The rulers of the houses show us where we will use that energy elsewhere, apart from the house he is in, so lets say that Pluto is in Virgo in the 4th. We could, amongst other interpretations probably find a dominant parent who could me mentally abusive. When the ruler of that house is Mars placed in the 7th, in Leo, these same traits (all that we experienced in childhood)will be brought over (in stronger or weaker form) to partners or closed one's (mainly,) but also to others in gereral and will then be expressed in yet another way, mainly to attract attention (Leo) or by trying to be the leader , in a business relationship maybe or the boss (Mars).
By looking at this from that point of view (houserulers in other houses), we can then see why people have become the way they are and do things in such ways. How often dont we see abusive patterns, or patterns of self sacrifice repeat itself! Always keep in mind that a house represents a certain department of our lives. The 1st, the personal , the 4th, the family , the 6th, the work or health department. So the ruler of one house and the planets therein, can influence, through the house ruler, another department of our lives. Thats at least how I have always used it anyways. Rulers for me are extremely important. Look at my 6th house for instance. BADLY aspected. Sun in T-square with Pluto and Moon (yes Kai, I also have the lights connected to Pluto!!), but the ruler is Mars and Mars is very well and strongly placed in the 5th house in own sign and trines the MC and conjuncts Venus, ruler of my Sun. So, with that really not nicely aspected Sun AND Mercury square Saturn as well in that house, you would think I would be spending my life in hospitals. I have been twice in hospital in my entire life so far and only one of them was an acute intestinal operation. The other I almost asked for to be operated on. Why?? because the ruler determines (in my point of view) the outcome of what happens in that house, by its placement in another sign and house. When the ruler falls in the same house and sign, then yes, you get exactly what you see.
Then, about traditional and modern astrology I can only say the following:
If the antique Astrologers would have been able to see Uranus, Pluto and Neptune, they would have, just like the modern one's, used them accordingly. Maybe they would have assigned them to different signs, that we will never know of course, but they would have used them!! I do use them, but also only when they rule Sun, Moon, Ascendant and MC. and when personal planets like Mars, Mercury and Venus aspect them strongly. Personally I use them as main rulers when they rule Sun, Moon and Ascendant and use Mars, Jupiter and Saturn as co-rulers, not the other way around. I do look at both always and depending on how many aspects either receives, I make them more important in a chart.
Greetings to you all, Starlink
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  #38  
Unread 12-09-2007, 03:59 PM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Ray
I have Pluto in Libra and was born at a time when marriage and social values went through a profound change. Also obsession over beauty and fashion and cosmetic surgery. Pluto is supposed to function poorly in Libra as Libra is an Air sign and can be too superficial for intense emotional Pluto. My depositor of Pluto is Venus and squares Pluto in the 2nd. Power battles in relationships have been a strong theme for me. I can be obsessed with my appearance and how I look, I always used to buy all sorts of beauty products to try and look beautiful and feel like I socially fitted in, my Venus is in Capricorn 5th. Low self worth feelings would drive me to fit in but in a superficial way. Having Pluto in 2nd is forcing me to change my values, my feelings about my self worth as a person through relationships (Libra). That was just part of a personal experience of how I have felt with Pluto in Libra in my chart when connected to personal planets.
This is the part that confuses me. I would have made that exact same interpretation, regardless of what sign Pluto was in. The 2nd house reflects our values, what we consider important, and self worth. You have Pluto here, which signfies deep introspection, analysis, and transformation of those values. Which values? Well, Venus rules the 2nd house traditionally, and you have Venus square Pluto. So the values related to beauty and feelings of self worth would be examined, as well as what makes us feel secure. In what manner? Venus in Capricorn lends a practical, analytical process to what it takes to evaluate this value. Change your clothes, change your hair, find ways to "fit in". Whatever it takes to make you fit in with society (which means for most people, "what makes me attractive to the opposite sex", 5th house). For me, that Pluto is in Libra had no bearing on that interpretation, yet we come out with the same result.

The only relevence I can find is that with Pluto in Libra, your generation in particular is more concerned with superficial values. Okay - but what, specifically, does that have to do with you? It only has value because natal Venus is square Pluto, and Pluto is in the 2nd, which is far more important than your generation as a whole is more concerned with superficialiaties. If Pluto was in another house and made no aspect to Venus at all, it may have made absolutely no difference, other than you're aware of the superficiality of your generation but choose not to focus on that element.
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  #39  
Unread 12-09-2007, 04:00 PM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Shiny, as always, you do a marvellous job explaining something! I agree totally with what you wrote. Me, having Scorpio Asc. and Pluto in Leo square Moon and Sun and trine Venus, ruler of my Sun, what do you think I feel!!! And you are (in my case at least) totally right when you say:
Quote:
On a positive note the person with the Moon/Pluto aspect could grow up to be a very good family therapist and help other people process their painful feelings.
My kids, nieces, future daughters in law, all come to me for advice and it is all about love relationships in turmoil!!
also this:

Quote:
I can be obsessed with my appearance and how I look
This is in my case caused by Venus in the 5th trine Pluto and Venus ruler of my Sun who is in the 6th (perfection, beauty treatments). I even became a
beautician and did modelling, so you can imagine, it was all about "the exterior". I am better now as I am getting older and even dare going out without make-up at times which I never dared to do LOL!!!
Yes, for me, those planets do affect us personally BIG TIME when connected with Asc. and/or personal planets. Cheers, Starlink
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  #40  
Unread 12-09-2007, 05:04 PM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Ray
I think your nitpicking Mdinaz I don't think I have to answer you on my own personal value system that is private.
Ummm, I wasn't asking your values, that was a rhetorical question.


Quote:
I am not understanding what you are getting at, please clarify. I think the interpretation is how I personally experience it, I don't know what it is you don't understand about the interpretation I will try to help you out with keywords. And it wasn't just a Pluto in Libra reading it was a Pluto in Libra 2nd house square to Venus in Capricorn 5th house.
Yes, I know, I agreed already that we made the exact same interpretation.
The question is: how much difference does the outer planet sign make in the interpretation, whether or not it makes an aspect to a personal planet. My thought is, we made the same interpretation on this aspect even though I did not consider the Pluto sign and others did. For me, it made little difference that Pluto was in Libra, what was important was the house positions, the hard aspect of Pluto to Venus, and the Venus sign.


Quote:
The point is I do have a personal planet connected to Pluto which disposits it and squares it. So I do connect into Pluto in Libra 2nd. If I didn't have this placement, I obviously would not be talking about this aspect. As I wouldn't personally connect into the superficial values or be influenced by them as much.
My only point is that it would have been important to you whether your generation agreed with it or not. Hence, the fact that Pluto was in Libra, to me, has little bearing. Just my thoughts here. I think we essentially agree on this topic, just for different reasons.
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  #41  
Unread 12-09-2007, 05:36 PM
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outer planets, to Kaiousei

Kaiousei,

You said:
Quote:
I don't feel Uranus in Capricorn, Neptune in Capricorn, or Pluto in Scorpio...Would there be a difference if say...Pluto was Squared from Taurus instead of Scorpio or Neptune was Trine was from Taurus instead of Capricorn?...where does Scorpio end and Pluto begin
I've already talked about Scorpio modifying Pluto, so let's talk about Capricorn (duty, also authority) modifying Uranus (friends, also astrology). This suggests that you want to be an "authority" in astrological things. Now let's compare how it would work if Taurus (physical, also personal values) modified Uranus. This would indicate you would would focus on astrology through an issue of your personal values. However, since you have Capricorn (not Taurus) modifying Uranus, you don't argue from a sense of personal values, but from a sense of "authority". So you look to "authorities" to back up your astrological views. I have Virgo (daily work, also analysis) modifying Uranus, so my approach to astrology is through analyzing how it works in daily life...I don't rely on "outside authorities" or someone's "say so". Continuing this idea of the importance of the sign ruling the outer planets, a person with Taurus modifying Pluto (instead of Scorpio) wouldn't be so strongly focused on the need for "pure" research...they would be more likely to trust their personal values in their research.

As to "where does Scorpio end and Pluto begin"...surely you jest ("I DON't jest and don't call me Shirley!" )! Scorpio is a SIGN and Pluto is a PLANET. A SIGN is NOT a PLANET. A sign MODIFIES a PLANET. So, even though they have the same KEY WORD, a sign and a planet have a different FUNCTION in the chart. The sign affects the way the planet is expressed. Planets in their own sign are more strongly expressed than planets in different signs. I'm PRETTY sure you know all this...so maybe you are only testing ME?

Out there,

Tim
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Last edited by wilsontc; 12-09-2007 at 05:39 PM.
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  #42  
Unread 12-09-2007, 06:25 PM
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Re: outer planets, to Kaiousei

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc
I've already talked about Scorpio modifying Pluto, so let's talk about Capricorn (duty, also authority) modifying Uranus (friends, also astrology). This suggests that you want to be an "authority" in astrological things. Now let's compare how it would work if Taurus (physical, also personal values) modified Uranus. This would indicate you would would focus on astrology through an issue of your personal values. However, since you have Capricorn (not Taurus) modifying Uranus, you don't argue from a sense of personal values, but from a sense of "authority". So you look to "authorities" to back up your astrological views. I have Virgo (daily work, also analysis) modifying Uranus, so my approach to astrology is through analyzing how it works in daily life...I don't rely on "outside authorities" or someone's "say so". Continuing this idea of the importance of the sign ruling the outer planets, a person with Taurus modifying Pluto (instead of Scorpio) wouldn't be so strongly focused on the need for "pure" research...they would be more likely to trust their personal values in their research.
Well that made more sense for me, as I have Uranus and Pluto in Virgo as well. I'll study on this further. Thanks.
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  #43  
Unread 12-09-2007, 10:01 PM
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Re: outer planets, to Kaiousei

Quote:
You can't just say Pluto in Leo is not personal because it is never alone it is somewhere in the chart connected to other planets and placed in a house in your personal natal chart - some people are more tuned in to the outer planets because they have them on angles and inner planets aspect them.
And this is the entire point. We can say that *insert Outer here* in *insert Sign here* are not personal because they usually do aspect an Inner. However, I'm sure many of us here have an unaspected planet. What if that unaspected planet is a member of the Outers? That would make it less personal. I'm pretty sure we all agree on this, but what the main thing seems to be now, is how much a Sign matters to an Outer in Nativities. Pluto in Leo, not very personal unless he is aspected by an Inner.

mdinaz, again, you and I are in agreement. Very nice points, by the way.

Quote:
This suggests that you want to be an "authority" in astrological things.
Or perhaps this is my Leonine Mercury? I want to be King. Hehe.

Quote:
However, since you have Capricorn (not Taurus) modifying Uranus, you don't argue from a sense of personal values, but from a sense of "authority". So you look to "authorities" to back up your astrological views.
Or perhaps we can argue this as Mercury conjoined to Mars. I bring in the Royal Guns.

My personal views of things run rampant in my astrology, most obviously where my groupings of planets are as Lights, Guardians (combined to make the Inners), Outers, and the Quartet. Views on the Tenth/Fourth and Mother/Father are at odds in astrology, modern views it one way and traditional views it the other way, however it is not that one group says it's one way that I agree with a camp of thought, it's that I can use my own brand of logic that just happens to coincide. Everyone has their personal views locked into their astrology, so we must all have Uranus in Taurus. Something that strikes me as odd is that I didn't expect modern astrology to interpret Uranus in Capricorn as a docile little puppy, answering to a master of authority, what with Uranus being the rebellious little rascal he's noted to be.

Quote:
As to "where does Scorpio end and Pluto begin"...surely you jest
Not at all.

Quote:
Scorpio is a SIGN and Pluto is a PLANET. A SIGN is NOT a PLANET. A sign MODIFIES a PLANET. So, even though they have the same KEY WORD, a sign and a planet have a different FUNCTION in the chart. The sign affects the way the planet is expressed. Planets in their own sign are more strongly expressed than planets in different signs. I'm PRETTY sure you know all this...so maybe you are only testing ME?
It wasn't a test and I didn't think you'd take it in that way as if I were asking it in an elementary fashion. After two years in astrology, one begins to understand how Signs and planets work around one another. The idea of it is, though, that the Outers have - unfortuntaely - been heavily embraced in the idea of the once mentioned X=Y=Z mentality. That meaning Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto have become so intimately connected with Aquarius and the Eleventh house, Pisces and the Twelfth house, and Scorpio and the Eighth house that it is hard to rip them apart from one another to see where Pluto ends and Scorpio begins. I guess my own nativity must be the biggest Plutonian mess of all, as my Pluto in Scorpio resides in my Eighth house. Squaring my Lights, goodness, I must be more Scorpion than I thought! ^.^
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  #44  
Unread 12-09-2007, 11:23 PM
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Re: outer planets, to Kaiousei

Hi everyone....calming down a bit from my own personal worries, has allowed me to come back to this thread.......for one, you are all very knowlegeable and your posts have a lot of value to the newbies to astrology..

I particularly liked Starlinks comment:
"If the antique Astrologers would have been able to see Uranus, Pluto and Neptune, they would have, just like the modern one's, used them accordingly."

I think this statement has a lot of truth to it.............and think its really worth pondering.

Thanks everyone for your posts........
Have a great day
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  #45  
Unread 12-10-2007, 05:39 AM
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Whole lot of Scorpio going on, to Kaiousei

Kaiousei,

You said:
Quote:
Pluto in Scorpio resides in my Eighth house. Squaring my Lights, goodness, I must be more Scorpion than I thought
And that is the value of an astrologer talking to another person about the effect of signs in their chart...it opens them up to a whole new way to understand themselves!

Making a breakthrough?

Tim
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  #46  
Unread 12-10-2007, 07:58 AM
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Re: Whole lot of Scorpio going on, to Kaiousei

YES!!! Tim, you hit the nail on the head. I have even seen a chart without obvious Scorpio signs like an Ascendant or Sun, whatever, but a chockeblock full 8th house with Sun, Merc, Venus, Jupiter, Moon etc. all in there and the sign was not Scorpio. Nevertheless a strong Scorpionic trait was evident in this person and he felt more of a Scorpion than anything else.
Houses really show how a planet's energies are expressed (it's almost as if the ruler tells them: got there, to the 8th house and see how you cope! It will teach you some insight and courage!
Starlink
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  #47  
Unread 12-10-2007, 08:12 AM
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Re: outer planets, to Kaiousei

Hi Tim, I think Kaiousei is rightly surprised with this last part of the otherwise very good deduction of Uranus in Capricorn:
Quote:
So you look to "authorities" to back up your astrological views.
Personally I dont think Kai looks up to anyone really. He has his own very unique ways of expressing himself, with friends and/or through Astrology in an authorative way. But maybe we understood this last remark wrongly. Maybe you meant to say that he gets his astrological knowledge from only looking at other astrologers who are authorities in this field?
Starlink
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  #48  
Unread 12-10-2007, 09:31 AM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Firstly I think it is counter productive to view any natal aspect in isolation of the chart as a whole, and so Tim, I think, unless you have access to Kai's entire chart, no astrologer can reasonably shed light on Kai's *personality* as defined by a particular aspect/placement. I would have strong objections if anyone took an aspect *out of context* from my chart and extrapolated on that...

As far as I'm concerned, all the known bodies *count* to a greater or lesser degree, depending on their aspectual (new word?) involvements.
When I analyse a natal, I look at overall patterns first, what connects to what.... Like most astrologers (aren't we an egocentric lot!), I studied my own chart in depth first- still going on that after 20 or so years! To me my chart made much more sense after chiron was discovered- Chiron is very prominent in my chart, a definite *key player*..Until Chiron was included, my chart did not make sense.
(I'm not mentioning chiron to stir you up, BTW, Kai- I respect your right NOT to use Chiron and hopefully you respect MY right to include it.Simple)...There doesn't need to be a *gulf war* between the traditionalists and the moderns. To tell you the truth, until I joined this forum had i been asked whether I was a *traditionalist* or a *modern* , I honestly would not have known what to say- I hate being pigeon-holed too.

In my own chart all the outers are involved in personal relationships with my inner planets. So when I studied my own aspects obviously I could not just leave out the outers-they were all very much involved in my chart.
I rarely see *unaspected planets* in charts...but on the rare occasion that it turns up I see it as a very important planet/asteroid/star/whatever, BECAUSE it is unaspected-thus free to exert a *pure* effect in the house its in and behave like the sign its in.

For horary it was logical for me to include the outers if they were prominent or conjoined with significators of the question...I don't apologise for *not sticking to the rules* here because in horaries on this forum even where the traditional system has been used the answer was sometimes WRONG and the chart done including the outers was RIGHT. (Like I think it was Gaer said *the proof of the pudding is in the eating*.)

Actually it amuses me to see posters vehemently claiming there is only one way to read a chart then getting it wrong with the method they have vigorously advocated!THere is just no room for arrogance in astrology yet I am disturbed to see it creeping in...

I don't have any astrological *gurus* as such- I think most astrologers who preceded us have contributed to the general wealth of knowledge and thus to a certain extent become *authorities* to which one can take recourse in a debate. No single astrologer, past or present had ALL the answers.We are now *the authorities in the making*- we can take from the works of the past but also from the works of the present. Surely?

I don't think its a clear cut case of *there are differences in approach therefore someone is wrong*!..There is more than one recipe to bake a cake.

On the issue of *generational planetary placements* surely it is obvious that everyone in ones peer group HAS the placement or aspect- say Pluto sextile neptune. Surely the FACT that a certain generation shares this aspect gives a sort of *common ground*-We've all heard of *the generation gap*-well whos not to say that that very phenomenon is not one that arises out of differences in the *generational* settings...In which case it brings those outers right into the sphere of personal influence- our peers would have to be a very significant influence in our lives and therefore in our charts.
I think it was Starlink who earlier said something like, if a planets in a certain part of the chart (even if unaspected), it forms part of the big picture.Its THERE. I would be very interested to have someone accurately read MY chart without including the outers...it would simply NOT tell the story of my life-I've tried it..

Maybe if anyone is having trouble trying to work out *what sort of astrologer* they are they should delineate their own natal using BOTH methods-and see what tells the story the most accurately.
As Robin Williams said in the film the *Fisher King* "Work out what you really are and BE THAT as best you can"..
Cheers Lillyjgc
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  #49  
Unread 12-10-2007, 11:14 AM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Hello Lilly! You are a good writer, I always like reading your posts.
You wrote:
Quote:
My Uranus conjuncts my I.C. Also Uranus in 3rd Scorpio squares my Mars in Aquarius 6th house, do you think I come across as challenging or rebellious concerning my views.
I would like to see this in context with your chart, like you wrote to Tim (I guess he has Kai's chart by the way, I do too because I think, when it was Kai's Birthday, he was concerned about the Solar Return and posted his chart after I asked for it because I told him that I cannot see anything in SR charts without his natal next to it).
Purely on what you wrote, a Scorpion Uranus (very much astrological I would say) in trine to your Moon/Mercury in 7, does just that: it communicates your astrological insights to the public in a very insightful, deep psychological way. Now that square to Mars?? Have you seen the mutual reception between Mars and Uranus?,( that is, if you take the traditional ruler of Scorpio.....) Mmmm, are you intensely, almost fanatically tidy? or could it be that being involved so deeply with astrology you would like to also include medical astrology? Or maybe doing so much astrology makes you forget to eat and you get ill!! for all I know LOL!!! or the other way around, if you cannot do astrology, you get sick (this is a bit my case really, astrology is medicine for me). You could have an extremely intense need to organize things around yourself and in your head as well otherwise you cannot get going? Mars in 6 often lacks taking the initiative .You could get mad at people who want YOU to do their dirty work in the office or generally. Astrology can be a good outlet for your anger. But these are all separate interpretations and I have no birthchart which makes for guessing games.
Now this one I find înteresting:
Quote:
Until Chiron was included, my chart did not make sense.
It depends on what you thought you saw in your chart. I think that it is more a certain aspect in your chart which did not make sense without Chiron.
If you talk about helping people through astrology, then I think that the trine from Uranus to Moon/Merc shows that, especially because Mars and Uranus are in mutual reception and Mars being in the 6th house of service to others.
Personally I have Chiron in Scorpio in the 12th house in opposition to Mercury in Taurus in the 6th and Mercury rules my 8th house and my 11th house.
What boggles me is that I still cannot remember the "wound" I got , even though I can see it with that Moon in 12 as well, square Pluto and opposed to the Sun. I MUST have felt bad, maybe so bad that I probably burried it so deep, I dont remember it anymore. I cant remember anything up till I was 12. Everything I know is from photo's. It does show my dramatic birth.

Quote:
I don't apologise for *not sticking to the rules*
I use them the same way as you do, it makes sense to me.

Quote:
There is more than one recipe to bake a cake.
This goes for natal and horary astrology both!

Quote:
on the rare occasion that it turns up I see it as a very important planet/asteroid/star/whatever, BECAUSE it is unaspected-thus free to exert a *pure* effect in the house its in and behave like the sign its in.
I totally agree with you.

Cheers, Starlink
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  #50  
Unread 12-10-2007, 11:30 AM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Starlink- I'm glad you enjoy my writing- I love writing ).I'm a bit confused-your first paragraph refers to a quote-but the quote is from Shining Ray- (I dont have uranus on the IC- just clearing that bit up first.)
Chiron is in my first house- it creates an opposition from Uranus/jupiter conjunction in h8 cusp which is also part of another major configuration in my chart. Mars is right next to Chiron....I have had to deal with life-death issues most of my life...Mars BTW is not conjunct Chiron enough to create a double opposition- orb of 9 degrees but its *influence* is there. Without Chiron, in saturn's sign in my chart, the *wounds would not be described, nor my response to them.As a child, adults injured my body..Mars in my first house doesn't describe this because mars has only positive aspects to it- the presence of chiron there brings in a whole new dimension- the opposition of chiron to uranus/jupiter very well describes the abuse I suffered as a child.
In your own chart, Chiron being in your twelfth may well describe a *past life* or kharmic wound- or one so well hidden it doesn't need to come up in this lifetime.
I guess the main point I am making is if you can see how a planet/star/asteroid/whatever plays out in your own chart it inclines you more to apply it when looking at others' charts.
I think you and I approach astrology very similarly star.
Cheers, Lillyjgc
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