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  #51  
Unread 12-10-2007, 02:55 PM
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Post authorities, to star

star,

You said:
Quote:
He has his own very unique ways of expressing himself, with friends and/or through Astrology in an authorative way...Maybe you meant to say that he gets his astrological knowledge from only looking at other astrologers who are authorities in this field?
That is another way to say it. Although I wouldn't use the word "only" and instead suggest "mostly". The other part of that "authority" issue is Kai wanting to become an authority on astrology.

Agreeing,

Tim

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Last edited by wilsontc; 12-10-2007 at 03:04 PM.
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  #52  
Unread 12-10-2007, 03:00 PM
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personality, to lilly

lilly,

You said:
Quote:
Tim, I think, unless you have access to Kai's entire chart, no astrologer can reasonably shed light on Kai's *personality* as defined by a particular aspect/placement.
My goal is to show how signs work with outer planets. Kai's sign placement emphasized "research" and this fit in with what Kai has revealed of his astrological methods on this grouplist. So I suggested the importance of "research" as a way for him to personally "connect in" with the importance of sign placement to his outer planets. I deliberately kept the interpretation general, with no indication of Kai's "personality" at all.

Keeping it general,

Tim
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  #53  
Unread 12-10-2007, 08:48 PM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Quote:
Originally Posted by lillyjgc
Firstly I think it is counter productive to view any natal aspect in isolation of the chart as a whole, []
I agree with you. It's necessary to simplify things when trying to explain what we are doing to people who are just learning the essentials, but the people involved in this discussion are all experienced.
Quote:
When I analyse a natal, I look at overall patterns first, what connects to what.... Like most astrologers (aren't we an egocentric lot!), I studied my own chart in depth first- still going on that after 20 or so years!
Actually, I think it's more polite to use our own charts to make points than to make comments about the charts of others unless they have specifically asked us to do so.
Quote:
To tell you the truth, until I joined this forum had I been asked whether I was a *traditionalist* or a *modern* , I honestly would not have known what to say- I hate being pigeon-holed too.
As a Libra Sun/Moon, it won't surprise you that I'm looking for a balance between tradional and modern views.
Quote:
I rarely see *unaspected planets* in charts...but on the rare occasion that it turns up I see it as a very important planet/asteroid/star/whatever, BECAUSE it is unaspected-thus free to exert a *pure* effect in the house its in and behave like the sign its in.
I have also found it very rare to find an outer planet that is not in aspect with an inner one. I would pay little or no attention to an unaspected outer planet when working without an accurate birth-time. But that's because then we would have no houses. We are already working with too many handicaps when trying to read a chart lacking an accurate time of birth.
Quote:
On the issue of *generational planetary placements* surely it is obvious that everyone in ones peer group HAS the placement or aspect- say Pluto sextile neptune. Surely the FACT that a certain generation shares this aspect gives a sort of *common ground*-We've all heard of *the generation gap*-well whos not to say that that very phenomenon is not one that arises out of differences in the *generational* settings...In which case it brings those outers right into the sphere of personal influence- our peers would have to be a very significant influence in our lives and therefore in our charts.
In fact, this may also give us a clue as to why we do not get along with people of our own generation, in general, and find more in common with another. If we place great importance in Pluto's sign, then I would be out of sync with those born after 1984, Pluto in Scorpio. However, if for a number of reasons I am atypical of the people of my own generation, I might find myself at war with the values of people my age and very much in tune with people under the age of 21. So with Mars and Mercy in Scorpio in my own chart, with Mars itself square to my own natal Pluto, that might explain my own continuing personal battle against dogma and blind acceptance of ideas of any nature.

One final thought: in my experience, astrology charts are mysteriously redundant. By that I mean that there will usually be multiple indications of the same basic character traits, and this is why several fine astrologers, all coming at the matter with a different approach, often end up with surprisingly similar results. Different ways to make the cake, but the cake still tastes good!

Gaer
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  #54  
Unread 12-10-2007, 08:53 PM
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Re: personality, to lilly

Quote:
And that is the value of an astrologer talking to another person about the effect of signs in their chart...it opens them up to a whole new way to understand themselves!
It was a joke, I'm not Scorpion at all. However, in the eyes of Modern astrology I must be, as Pluto, Scorpio, and the Eighth house are inseperable, and I have Pluto in Scorpio in the Eighth.

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, all the known bodies *count* to a greater or lesser degree, depending on their aspectual (new word?) involvements.
Well...I don't know about all that. Just because it's there doesn't mean it's useful or doing anything. I mean...just look at the president for an example. What's he really doing? Just standing there; something to look at.

Quote:
I'm not mentioning chiron to stir you up, BTW, Kai- I respect your right NOT to use Chiron and hopefully you respect MY right to include it.Simple
-.-' Why do people expect me to explode over mentions of...Chiron? Bleh. I don't like it and I'll never speak of it positively, but it doesn't mean I'll take every chance I get to sneak a snide at it...

Quote:
That is another way to say it. Although I wouldn't use the word "only" and instead suggest "mostly". The other part of that "authority" issue is Kai wanting to become an authority on astrology.
I've four planets in Leo, being on top of things is what I do, regardless of the newfound gentleness of Uranus. Saturn in Capricorn helps too.

Quote:
Kai's sign placement emphasized "research" and this fit in with what Kai has revealed of his astrological methods on this grouplist.
But you see, it can be explained alternatively. As for my 'research', I don't take the Scorponic approach and delve into the study of charts myself, psh, I'm a Leo, I don't do dirty work. I go to people I respect as astrologers to point me in the right direction and then I'll run from there. So, I don't really 'research' at all, I just ask around. Now, is this Uranus in Capricorn? I personally don't think so and would mostly place this on Saturn's residence in his domicile. I have yet to embrace Uranus as the significator for astrology, and in doing so I still use Mercury as I feel it is more appropriate for me. Mercury in Leo, I want to be king, the authoritative voice. Conjoined with Mars and this is where I obtain my stinger, my defiant and argumentative tone, and the power to back it up.

Quote:
We've all heard of *the generation gap*-well whos not to say that that very phenomenon is not one that arises out of differences in the *generational* settings...In which case it brings those outers right into the sphere of personal influence- our peers would have to be a very significant influence in our lives and therefore in our charts.
That's not personal, that's a stereotype, which I daresay would be about as opposite as you can get. Obviously the generation gap is going to be shown here, but this isn't personal. One generation being unable to see eye-to-eye with another generation isn't a personal phenomena, it's a social circumstance. Would this be reflected in astrology? Well, yeah, just about everything is. So, it's not that a generation cannot understand individuals within another generation, but that they do not necessarily agree with the supposed ideals associated with that generation collectively, which again is not personal. So I don't really see how that works.
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  #55  
Unread 12-10-2007, 09:14 PM
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Re: personality, to lilly

Gaer, you said, "I agree with you. It's necessary to simplify things when trying to explain what we are doing to people who are just learning the essentials, but the people involved in this discussion are all experienced. "

I disagree, I am not experienced, and considering I started the thread, feel I am part of the discussion.
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  #56  
Unread 12-11-2007, 12:03 AM
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Re: personality, to lilly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Green
Gaer, you said, "I agree with you. It's necessary to simplify things when trying to explain what we are doing to people who are just learning the essentials, but the people involved in this discussion are all experienced. "

I disagree, I am not experienced, and considering I started the thread, feel I am part of the discussion.
Good luck! The problem for you might be that we have really wandered over a lot of territory. The simple answer to the problem of traditional vs. modern astrology is that there is no simple answer. It REALLY gets complicated.

If you have questions, just ask. I'll try to answer them, if I can.

g
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  #57  
Unread 12-11-2007, 12:37 AM
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Re: personality, to lilly

Thanks Gaer,
Its great getting so many different opinions......I understood in the beginning that this was gonna be a tough one....and i also knew there would be no right answers.......I like gettting lots of view at a topic before heading on into it.....It is necessary for my personality to question everything (which is probably the reason i know heaps of info on heaps of different subjects, but am master of nothing!).....you are all masters for sure and although dont agree, all have good reasons for believing what you do..........From the discussion so far, I am leaning more towards the modern approach.....
will have to reread a few times to ask some more questions
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  #58  
Unread 06-03-2008, 10:16 PM
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Re: generational and personal, to mdinaz

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc
mdinaz,

You said:


I think the outers are both generational and personal. While they do have generational effects because of their slow movements, they can have very strong personal effects as well. However, not everyone is "tuned" into these planets. But for those who have many aspects to these planets or if it hits any of the 4 points in the chart (i.e., Ascendant, Midheaven, Descendand, and IC), these energies are very strongly felt.

Strongly,

Tim
I fully concur. I like Rudhyar's way of looking at the outer planets as "Emissaries of the Universe," to lead us out of our Saturn-bound world into higher realms. That they do so with style (the Uranian 2 X 4 to bash out of an unhealthy rut; the Neptunian labyrinths until the spiritual path is accessed; and the Plutonian purge of Self-limiting patterns.)

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  #59  
Unread 10-11-2010, 04:03 AM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Eclectic: a very heavy Hellenist and (mostly early/Arabic times) traditionalist influence, but with a substantial amount of Modernist ideas and concepts as well (mostly those of Charles Carter, Vivain Robson, and Manly P. Hall) I have also been influenced by Jaimini (a lesser known branch of Vedic astrology), but not in using the sidereal zodiac-however, several Jaimini techniques work beautifully within our Tropicalist framework. And, relative to Time as an important astrological element, I have also been much influenced by certain concepts involved in Chinese astrology.
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  #60  
Unread 10-12-2010, 09:18 PM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Green View Post
I used to frequent another forum.......based on psychological astrology...

Here i am seeing a definite, new amount of information, on traditional astrology.

I dont know what to follow.....i cant study both at once i dont think....

Anybody who would like to state why they prefer one over the other, or perhaps to share some problems with the style not chosen would be great.....all opinions are valid....

And please dont fight....i hate starting threads that turn into war zones.....nobody will be getting any prizes
I personally don't think its an "either-or" choice. I think traditional astrology has things that we can learn from. I've studied some of it, even though I'd be labelled as a modern astrologer. I don't hold to any limits as to what modern astrology is.

So first, don't put yourself into a category (box). Its limiting. Go with what attracts you. Mix and match and create a quilt work of your own approach that makes best use of your natural bent. If a modern approach attracts you, it doesn't mean you can't learn from traditional/historic astrology.

What has guided me has been an interest in Truth, not methodology. I'm genuinely interested in the Truth of human beings and our Spiritual essence, our Intentions and Purpose in living. If you study astrology mostly as craft and don't stay intent on Higher Truth in the overriding sense, then you will be diluting your ability in my opinion.

Traditional or historical astrology has things to teach us. This doesn't equate to the belief that older/original-is-better. There are reasons why things have developed the way they have. Astrology practice has mostly evolved and progressed into something better. This doesn't preclude that something valuable and helpful may've been left behind unnecessarily.

So be intent on Truth and putting your own natural ability to use as you develop it. Observing and Listening to People is just as important as studying books and astrological principles. Sometimes we astrologers do a bit too much talking and not enough listening.
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Last edited by Kannon; 10-12-2010 at 09:23 PM.
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  #61  
Unread 10-13-2010, 08:49 AM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ53 View Post
...But, I suspect that the 1977 arrival of Chiron (with an orbit that links Jupiter/Saturn/Uranus) symbolises the future development of an astrology that can be easily understood (and practiced) by the masses...

Perhaps one day, understanding (and learning to live with) our Chiron Wound might be all we need know to overcome the specific/detailed issues of our natal charts.

EJ
I'll second that - - Chiron forms a large part of my astrological viewpoint.

I suppose I am a modern astrologer, but I like to think that I am in the process of creating a niche for myself where the astrology is little more than a framework for a much larger body of thought/belief, much of which was eloquently described by Kannon in his 3rd paragraph, beginning: What has guided me.....

Like EJ53, I look forward to a time when astrology is understood and accepted by the masses, and used as a tool by which each individual can take responsibility for their own life and personal journey.
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  #62  
Unread 10-13-2010, 02:48 PM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Here's another vote for eclecticism, although with a large dose of reservation.

I must admit, I've only really skimmed the surface of trad astrology, but to me, it looks like it rather fetishises complexity as if that were enough to grant it depth and meaning. I may be being completely unfair here, but that's my impression. A lot of it doesn't fit in with my beliefs about the craft either - for instance, the various Arabic parts just seem to me to make astrology a bit of a parlour game rather than a serious pursuit.

Them's my five eggs anyway.
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  #63  
Unread 10-13-2010, 05:06 PM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

The essence of Traditional Astrology is predicting, the astologer uses his Neptunian Plutonium senses to feel the out and beyond while the essence of Modern Astrology is psychology and horary and the astrologer uses the Saturnian Uranian rules and scientific outlook to play it safely with Astrology and to make it scientifically possible for most people who are interested in studying it but who do not have the Neptunian Plutonium gift.
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  #64  
Unread 10-14-2010, 11:14 AM
Madammaha Madammaha is offline
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Skillcoil,

The Plutonium Neptunian gift is when Pluto and Neptune are Well aspected and well placed and in direct aspect to the Sun, Moon, the rulers of the angels and mostly the ruler of the Asc., and no doubt most astrologers do have these kind of aspects
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  #65  
Unread 10-16-2010, 07:29 AM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

skillcoil

It seems I must have forgotten to add that the gift is there when the aspects of Pluto and Neptune are more dominant than the aspects of the other planets.
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  #66  
Unread 10-17-2010, 08:07 AM
Madammaha Madammaha is offline
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

skillcoil

It is very true that there are numerous other correlations found in the charts of Astrologers but here I was trying to clarify why some Astrologers choose the Traditional ( Pluto Neptune) while others choose the Modern ( Uranus Saturn), thanks.
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  #67  
Unread 12-31-2017, 07:26 PM
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Re: Traditional vs modern. state your case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madammaha View Post

skillcoil

It is very true that there are numerous other correlations found in the charts of Astrologers
but here I was trying to clarify
why some Astrologers choose the Traditional ( Pluto Neptune)
while others choose the Modern ( Uranus Saturn), thanks.
Astrologers simply have different opinions
by the way
none of the outers are Traditional
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