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  #26  
Unread 07-06-2009, 05:17 AM
gaer gaer is offline
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by amzolt View Post
This may be really hard for some folks to believe, but here it is: Astrology does not, will not, and never has predicted events.

"What?!"

Yes. It's the absolute truth, even if some astrologer "predicted" something for you. If an astrologer tells you something is going to happen, don't you think that, if it does, there may just be a bit of self-fulfillment in that?
I read the rest of your post, but it left me scratching my head. Don't you realize that the same logic is used to discredit astrology, in all ways?

For instance, even if you rather accurately describe key elements of a client's personality, there is no end to the line of people who are waiting to say that you have made lucky guesses based on hunches or elements of cold readings.

You may find it easier to defend "meanings" more than events for the obvious reason that meanings are more nuanced, subtle, and therefore more open to interpretation.

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  #27  
Unread 07-06-2009, 05:23 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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You may find it easier to defend "meanings" more than events for the obvious reason that meanings are more nuanced, subtle, and therefore more open to interpretation.
I defend the prediction of meanings over prediction of events because the prediction of events was disproven by the experience I related.

I'm facing the truth of astrology...
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  #28  
Unread 07-06-2009, 05:36 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by amzolt View Post
I defend the prediction of meanings over prediction of events because the prediction of events was disproven by the experience I related.
From my perspective I would say that the experience you related caused you to dismiss the validity of event prediction, based only on your own personal experience.

I have never attempted to use astrology to predict events. However, my mind remains open.

If you so choose, you can look at my birth chart and decide whether I am patholigically argumentative or extremely fair—or a bit of both. But I am adverse to making sweeping judgments based only on my own personal experience or my own success/lack of success. Curse of Libra Sun/Moon?
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Unread 07-06-2009, 05:40 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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From my perspective I would say that the experience you related caused you to dismiss the validity of event prediction, based only on your own personal experience.

I have never attempted to use astrology to predict events. However, my mind remains open.
Perhaps you haven't seen this comment I posted further down the thread:

What's interesting to me, with all the debate of astrology's supposed ability to predict events, is the scientific principle that, with a ton of experiential agreements with any given theory, that theory is never proven, only more clearly validated in its potential usefulness.

Yet, all it takes is one experiential fact that disagrees with the theory to disprove it...

My experience with those two men happened well over 25 years ago and it's taken most of that time for me to train myself to perform as an astrologer who accepts the disproof of the theory of astrological prediction of events...

Strange how persistently the ego-mind can cling to falsehoods, eh?
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  #30  
Unread 07-06-2009, 05:58 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by amzolt View Post
Perhaps you haven't seen this comment I posted further down the thread:

What's interesting to me, with all the debate of astrology's supposed ability to predict events, is the scientific principle that, with a ton of experiential agreements with any given theory, that theory is never proven, only more clearly validated in its potential usefulness.

Yet, all it takes is one experiential fact that disagrees with the theory to disprove it...
I did read that. However, I do think we are on shaky ground the moment we use scientific principles or the "scientific method" to investigate astrology.

Astrology remains elusive, slippery, mysterious. Because of my own belief in the idea that "things should make sense if they are believed", I have to assume that many things that appear "non-scientific" or "superstitious" or "unsupported" do so because of limititations in what we know.

In other words, if astrology actually can predict events, I expect that eventually science will "grow" enough to find ways to prove it.

So far it has not done so.

But it has not proved astrology's ability to give insights into character either. This *IS* the hitch:
Quote:
Yet, all it takes is one experiential fact that disagrees with the theory to disprove it...
In my view if there are many examples of events having been predicted correctly, one that misfires is not going to convince me that the whole idea is false. However, now we have the problem of investigating all predictions made by astrologer A or B in a controlled experiment, then evaluating the results based on some measuring stick. What percentage of hits would be considered significant? Or what hit rate would fall into the range of "chance hits"?

I would love to find a set of experiments validating EITHER prediction OR character analysis that would finally be accepted by scientists.

I have yet to see one.
Quote:
Strange how persistently the ego-mind can cling to falsehoods, eh?
Yes, it is. We would be in a perpetual state of observing with few if any conclusions were we to reach a true level of open-mindedness. Or at least our conclusions would be very, very different. It's a rather Buddhist way of looking at "reality", isn't it?
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  #31  
Unread 07-06-2009, 06:05 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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I did read that. However, I do think we are on shaky ground the moment we use scientific principles or the "scientific method" to investigate astrology.
Does it not make you wonder that two men with the exact same chart could have two very different events for the same transit indicator yet still use the same, uncommon word to describe those events' meanings?
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  #32  
Unread 07-06-2009, 06:16 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Does it not make you wonder that two men with the exact same chart could have two very different events for the same transit indicator yet still use the same, uncommon word to describe those events' meanings?
Most definitely. It doesn't prove or disprove anything to me, but it certainly appeals to the part of me that continues to look at life with wonder. It also gives me just a bit more courage to either stand up to or be amused by people who think they have all the answers.

For me the things in life that are most important are not those that answer questions but that make me aware that I don't yet know what questions to ask.

It's a big universe, and we always make the mistake of thinking we know more than we do.
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  #33  
Unread 07-06-2009, 06:25 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by Lilly
The process was designed to involve one on one interaction, in a context where there could be an exchange of information that helped the Astrologer to consider *likelihoods*.When done this way, there's no reason why a competent astrologer could not accurately predict certain events..............It's almost impossible to accurately forecast specific events for people who are not in any way known to you....
Yes.......this seems to be what everyone on the thread is saying, Lilly.

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  #34  
Unread 07-06-2009, 12:06 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

My question is: *How are the scientists going to distinguish which astrologers ARE A)psychic b) lucky guessers c)excellent astrologers... ??

Lilly
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  #35  
Unread 07-06-2009, 05:43 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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My question is: *How are the scientists going to distinguish which astrologers ARE A)psychic b) lucky guessers c)excellent astrologers... ??

Lilly
Lilly, it will be a distant date in the future before the scientists get around to this question! As you know, right now most of them dismiss astrology altogether.

My question is, if astrologers are able to make accurate predictions at some level above random chance; and if we could control for the Barnum Effect, then how does the astrologer make these predictions?

[For newbies: the Barnum Effect was named for the 19th century US circus owner and showman who duped gullible people into believing that fakes in his side-shows were real. Effectively, people believe what they are led to believe or want to believe.]

It has to be more than interpreting symbols on a piece of paper or computer screen, because each sign, planet, house, you-name-it has so many multiple meanings. My personal belief is that, for those of us who are not psychic, that interacting with a horoscope is a kind of divinatory key. This is different than being a true clairvoyant, who can see things more directly. I think we understand only a portion of what the human mind can do. However, I don't believe that all psychics are genuine, and even the ones who have become famous for their accuracy sometimes make mistakes, sometimes serious ones [cf. Sylvia Browne's mistaken death predictions.] But I think all of us had moments, premonitions, intuitions, prescient dreams--call them what you will--that enable us to understand things unavailable through ordinary means, and that astrology can be one way to access this part of our psyches.

But to get back to amzolt's point, I don't think most people would be comfortable with the notion that our future lives are so totally mapped out for us that a skillful astrologer can effectively take away our choices. The "meaning" of a really tough 7th house transit, for example, only becomes a divorce if the native chooses it or her spouse chooses it. People have to physically get themselves to a lawyer and deliberately fill out a lot of paperwork for it to happen. So this is why, most times, I support the idea of transits, &c. indicating meanings or energies vs. concrete events.
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  #36  
Unread 07-06-2009, 05:48 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
But to get back to amzolt's point, I don't think most people would be comfortable with the notion that our future lives are so totally mapped out for us that a skillful astrologer can effectively take away our choices. The "meaning" of a really tough 7th house transit, for example, only becomes a divorce if the native chooses it or her spouse chooses it. People have to physically get themselves to a lawyer and deliberately fill out a lot of paperwork for it to happen. So this is why, most times, I support the idea of transits, &c. indicating meanings or energies vs. concrete events.
Bless you...

It's amazing how many people in this thread don't seem to realize that, when two men, with exactly the same chart, have different events for the same transiting aspect, it means that prediction of events is not anywhere in the chart itself.........
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  #37  
Unread 07-07-2009, 04:06 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Here's an interesting, and relevant (to this discussion) article about William Lilly's Prediction of the Great Fire of London,(in the interests of everyone keeping an open mind.)

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/fire.html
(Amzolt: if you were to tell me you had a seen 2 identical *anythings*, I would still prefer to be open to the possibility whilst reserving my judgement until I personally experienced something that confirmed your assertions.This is nothing to do with your *credibility* as an astrologer, forum member or anything else-Its just that it is *my* nature to view new ideas with caution if they do in fact conflict with my own personal experience. As this one does. )

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  #38  
Unread 07-07-2009, 04:49 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Lilly,

In the penultimate paragraph of the article you quote, it says :-

Quote:
Dr. Bernard, the astrologer and physician to James II, had written to Lilly at one time declaring that he had discovered a method for forecasting fires of great cities..........Perhaps Lilly used Dr. Bernard's method or, indeed, had found a similar method that had helped him to confidently predict the 1666 fire.
If that is correct, William Lilly was searching for a specific event (a fire in London) and was using astrology only to determine it's timing.

To me, this article confirms Amzolt's assertion that accurate astrological predictions of events cannot be made without including non-astrological information in the interpretation............But, it also confirms (as Amzolt has consistently pointed out) that accurate event predictions/guesses can be made by astrologers using both astrological and non-astrological information.

And this also applies to the specific predictions made by your astrologer.....You asked when you would move.........He was looking for your stolen car/the return of your dog.......He knew you were undergoing surgery.........He (probably) knew you had a son.......So, each of these things enabled him to forecast a specific event from the meanings revealed by his astrological data.



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  #39  
Unread 07-07-2009, 05:18 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

EJ:
As I understand it, Amzolt is asserting that Astrology cannot predict any event. Period. He says, to paraphrase, that should an astrologer manage to *predict* an actual event in a person's life, that Astrologer is probably just lucky-guessing.He is claiming that at best astrology can only be used to give a generalised interpretation of possible *meanings*.
He has provided no evidence to support his assertions, merely an anecdotal reference to something that happened to him once.Whilst I am not disputing his claims of having met these guys etc, I AM disputing that his having had that experience actually *proves* or *disproves* anything for me.
EJ: It is obvious that Amzolt and myself have totally opposed ideas on this, in that I DO believe astrology can be used to predict actual *Events*.

This is the part to which you refer:
Dr. Bernard, the astrologer and physician to James II, had written to Lilly at one time declaring that he had discovered a method for forecasting fires of great cities. Fortunately he had not published his thoughts and so avoided facing the Committee enquiring into the cause of the fire. He had collected all the data available to him at that time concerning fires of cities, and believed that if he examined the horoscope for each fire he would find correspondences that would enable him to predict future fires with a reasonable amount of accuracy. The one great difficulty, he said, was discovering the birth date and time of each town in order to draw the horoscope correctly. Perhaps Lilly used Dr. Bernard's method or, indeed, had found a similar method that had helped him to confidently predict the 1666 fire.

It doesn't matter what prompted William Lilly to make his prediction, or whose methods he used. My point is that he did indeed do this!
There are hundreds of examples where astrologers have accurately predicted Events. My point is, they are/were not all psychics!
Lillyjgc
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  #40  
Unread 07-07-2009, 06:26 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

In the case of my daughter's astro-twin, some similarities were striking, such as both of them wanting to study anthropology and film studies in university. Both were foundering a bit in terms of looking for an ideal career. But some other things were not so close.

I think with regard to the question of the accuracy of astrological predictions, it is a classic glass half-empty, glass half-full conundrum. If astrologers are wrong some of the time and right some of the time, one still has to decide what conclusions to draw about this disparity.
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  #41  
Unread 07-07-2009, 07:42 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilly
.........I DO believe astrology can be used to predict actual *Events*.
Yes.......but Amzolt believes that too.......He only asserts that it cannot be done solely by looking at a chart (and/or progressions + transits to it).....It's achieved through a combination of the "meanings" derived from the latter and the consideration of other non-astrological factors......Whether we call the outcome of that process a prediction or a guess is more a question of semantics than astrology.

This does seem to me to be a case of "what Amzolt thinks he has written is not what Lilly thinks she has read"..........(which is the only point I'm trying to make here).......No-one appears to be disputing that astrology can be used to (accurately) predict actual events.....only whether or not additional non-astrological data is needed to do so.

[Note : Perhaps a more accurate thread title is "astrology reveals meanings, which can be used to predict events".]

Explaining my position.

EJ

Last edited by EJ53; 07-07-2009 at 07:57 AM.
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  #42  
Unread 07-07-2009, 11:42 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Astrology does not, will not, and never has predicted events.

This is Amzolt's opening line.

This is the sentence with which I diagree. (EJ)
I pretty much agree with everything you said above, Charmvirgo.
That what I was disputing with the *identical chart* idea and trying to suggest that a chart quite reasonably has to be viewed in the context of the person's life to which that chart belongs.

If Amzolt is saying : that we, as Astrologers, can't look at a chart and predict an actual event from our study of that chart, in the context of that person's life, then I disagree.
BUT
If Amzolt is saying we as Astrologers cannot say for example *a Mars hit to the 4th house cusp WILL produce a house move*, then I agree with him. For one person, a Mars hit to H4 cusp could signify loss of a Father. It would depend on the aspects and rulerships in that individual's chart.
But both Events ARE predictable.Theoretically at least.
There *can't* be two identical lives, even if two people are born at exactly the same time, two people cannot occupy the exact same point in space.It's just that *we* cant as yet measure such differences in the setting up of our charts.
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Last edited by lillyjgc; 07-07-2009 at 04:41 PM. Reason: spelling error.
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  #43  
Unread 07-07-2009, 02:46 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by Lilly
If Amzolt is saying : that we, as Astrologers, can't look at a chart and predict an actual event from our study of that chart, in the context of that person's life, then I disagree.
BUT
If Amzolt is saying we as Astrologers cannot say for example *a Mars hit to the 4th house cusp WILL produce a house move*, then I agree with him. For one person, a Mars hit to H4 cusp could signify loss of a Father. It would depend on the aspects and rulerships in that individual's chart.
Ok Amzolt, which of these are you saying? :-

1. Astrologers can make an *informed guess* about events in the context of a person's life.....or they cannot *predict* events in the context of a person's life?

2. Astrologers can conclude that a conjunction of transitting Mars to natal 4th house cusp signifies a house move (or other specific event)......or they cannot conclude that it signifies a specific event?

*Wikipedia* note for information :-

Quote:
Outside the rigorous context of science, prediction is often confused with informed guess or opinion.
A prediction of this kind might be valid if the predictor is a knowledgeable person in the field and is employing sound reasoning and accurate data.
EJ

Last edited by EJ53; 07-07-2009 at 03:03 PM.
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  #44  
Unread 07-07-2009, 04:03 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by EJ53 View Post
No-one appears to be disputing that astrology can be used to (accurately) predict actual events
I have clearly disputed the claim that specific events can be predicted...
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Unread 07-08-2009, 03:31 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by amzolt
I have clearly disputed the claim that specific events can be predicted...
Sorry Amzolt, I thought you had disputed the claim that specific events can be predicted using only astrology.

If your assertion is that "specific events cannot be predicted".........I believe Lilly has provided sufficient evidence to demonstrate that they can.

Apologies to both you and Lilly for misunderstanding the point you were making.
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  #46  
Unread 07-08-2009, 10:40 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

I have been reading all that is said here and I understand what you say Amzolt.
However, I dont think we can predict a meaning (as you say)of something and I do think that we can predict an event, BUT not what sort of an event it will be.

Personally I could "predict" an event which can cause pain, anguish or happiness, but never exactly can tell the person what it is going to be. It can be a death, an accident, a divorce, anything. So in a way you can predict a certain happening, but not exactly what sort of happening. Often we can get hints via the planets involved, like Uranus and divorce and 7th house involvement or an accident with Uranus and Mars and the 3rd house involved. Sometimes we get it right but can just as well go wrong, so it is better to just explain that something problematic or sad could happen, not what you think that could be. This only traumatises the person.

Now where I dont agree with you is this:

Quote:
They were born in the same hospital at the same time (certified).
It is extremely unlikely that these two men came into this world at the exact same time. OK, maybe the same hour, but then we get into minutes and seconds and astrologically we get into dwads.

Also, as we all know, midwives and gynocologists, unless they are astrologers as well, do not stand there with a stopwatch in their hands to time the event, so a few minutes at least in time difference between the birth of these two men is highly likely. We also still don't know what the exact moment of birth should be. Is it the complete coming out of the birthcanal, the cutting of the umbilical cord or is it the first cry . So there is probably in 99° of the cases a difference in time. Identical twins are most likely to have the exact time of birth if born by cesarian section. We know about twins who, even though they live miles away from one another, marry the same day, have the same dog, gotten pregnant the same month etc. It is possible.

Still, the circumstances of two people born at the same time could have been the same. One man looses his father and feels "freed" and the other goes to the nude beach and feels "freed". This again shows me that the same feeling/emotion (not meaning as you say) is likely to happen, but not necessarily the same event, even though that might also be a possibility.
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Last edited by starlink; 07-08-2009 at 10:47 AM.
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Unread 07-08-2009, 10:49 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

So many people have missed so many points of what I originally posted that I thought it might help if I re-posted; then, I thought, no, it's right there for anyone who wants to understand...

Still, I'm concerned that so many have missed the most important statement I made:

"...all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory..."
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Unread 07-08-2009, 11:57 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
"...all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory..."
Amzolt, I dont think we overlooked this statement. The point is, that you are the one who disapproves when you see contrary occurrences. You apparently expected both men to have the same experience, either both loosing their father or both going nude. Because this did not happen, and in your 25 years of research you also found that things did not always show the same result, you probably concluded that therefore we cannot make predictions of an event.

It seems you want things always to be exactly correct or otherwise it cannot be proven to be reliable. But this is astrology we are talking about, not mathematics, and I dont think that this rule can be applied here. I dont think we can talk about a theory in astrology, the same way we use it in physics or math. Astrology is an art and three painters (astrologers) can paint the same landscape (chart) in different ways but they will probably be able to give us all the same impression(event).
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Unread 07-08-2009, 02:45 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amzolt
So many people have missed so many points of what I originally posted that I thought it might help if I re-posted; then, I thought, no, it's right there for anyone who wants to understand...
Amzolt,........I really do want to understand and I've tried hard to do so.....However, it's hard when you make statements which appear to mean the same but in fact do not......like :-

Quote:
Astrology does not, will not, and never has predicted events.
and

Quote:
I have clearly disputed the claim that specific events can be predicted.
My problem here is that I agree wholeheartedly with the first statement and disagree wholeheartedly with the second.......So, how do you reconcile the two Amzolt?
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I then encounter further problems in understanding because you've consistently failed to address any of the comments on this thread that challenge your original assertion.......other than to restate the latter and claim your own point(s) had been missed.........For example, if you "dispute the claim that specific events can be predicted", what is your explanation for the specifically predicted events which Lillyjc has listed?
________________________________
Next, I have difficulty finding the "many points that so many people missed" in your original post........So, let's take that paragraph by paragraph below :-

Quote:
...Astrology does not, will not, and never has predicted events.

For me, this is a true statement which I believe is widely accepted by the astrological community.......and I certainly do not find it "really hard to believe".

Quote:
Yes. It's the absolute truth, even if some astrologer "predicted" something for you. If an astrologer tells you something is going to happen, don't you think that, if it does, there may just be a bit of self-fulfillment in that?

If it came true, the prediction was correct..........Why it came true is not relevant (in relation to your later statement disputing the claim that specific events can be predicted).

Quote:
What astrology does predict or reveal is Meaning.

Maybe.........but you have yet to enter into any discussion about this, so it's hard for me to form any conclusions about the validity of this statement.....I certainly do not accept it as true merely because someone states it to be.

Quote:
O.K. What if an astrologer says some event happened in your past, and, in fact, it did happen?"....Believe it or not, what happened is that the astrologer saw a meaning in the chart and made a very good guess at the exact event.

If it came true, the prediction was correct.......why it came true is not relevant (in relation to your later statement disputing the claim that specific events can be predicted).

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Here's some proof of that: (anecdote about two men)

My understanding of what you are saying here is that two people with identical charts do not experience identical events (when a transit or other astrological contact occurs)......but rather an event that has (for them) the same "meaning"........For me, this is a true statement but not earth-shattering.

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They (the two men) used exactly the same, and not so common, word to describe what two very different events meant...

The "not so common word" is shackles.........Which is precisely the word I would normally use to describe an event that freed me from restraint.......What are the alternative words that they might have been expected to use?


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Finally, let's consider the points you make later in the thread :-

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What's interesting to me, with all the debate of astrology's supposed ability to predict events, is the scientific principle that, with a ton of experiential agreements with any given theory, that theory is never proven, only more clearly validated in its potential usefulness.........Yet, all it takes is one experiential fact that disagrees with the theory to disprove it...

Scientific principles relate to the world of science......And I'm more than happy to view the priciples of astrology as still being beyond the limited understanding of the world of science.........Let's stick to astrology on the forum.

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My experience with those two men happened well over 25 years ago and it's taken most of that time for me to train myself to perform as an astrologer who accepts the disproof of the theory of astrological prediction of events.....Strange how persistently the ego-mind can cling to falsehoods, eh?

Again, you are making here a general assumption based on your own limited experience.........Your ego-mind may indeed cling persistently to falsehoods, but that may not be the case for others.

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I actually didn't say that predicting events was impossible, I said astrology doesn't predict events.

How do you reconcile this statement with the statement you make later that "I have clearly disputed the claim that specific events can be predicted..."

Is it the word "specific" (which semantically reconciles the two otherwise conflicting statements)?

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"...all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory..."

Yes.......in the scientific world........but isn't this an astrology forum?

EJ

Last edited by EJ53; 07-08-2009 at 05:47 PM.
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Unread 07-08-2009, 03:09 PM
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amzolt amzolt is offline
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by EJ53 View Post
Amzolt,........I really do want to understand and I've tried hard to do so.....However, it's hard when you make statements which appear to mean the same but in fact do not......

.................................................. .....................................

Yes.......in the scientific world........but isn't this an astrology forum?

EJ
I posted my beliefs based on 40 years of experience. I didn't and don't want to get into a debate. Is it possible in this forum to share experience without hairsplitting debate?

One other question: Why is it assumed by some that astrology has no need of the application of scientific principle?
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