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Predictive Astrology This is the place to discuss the astrology of the past, present, and future. Includes eclipses, transits, progressions, planetary returns.


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  #1  
Unread 07-04-2009, 05:41 PM
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Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

This may be really hard for some folks to believe, but here it is: Astrology does not, will not, and never has predicted events.

"What?!"

Yes. It's the absolute truth, even if some astrologer "predicted" something for you. If an astrologer tells you something is going to happen, don't you think that, if it does, there may just be a bit of self-fulfillment in that?

What astrology does predict or reveal is Meaning.

"O.K. What if an astrologer says some event happened in your past, and, in fact, it did happen?"

Believe it or not, what happened is that the astrologer saw a meaning in the chart and made a very good guess at the exact event. Here's some proof of that:

Many years ago, I had the opportunity to talk to two men, born of different mothers but at the same time at the same hospital. Since they had the same chart you'd think they would have had the same events happening in their lives, right? Well, all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory and here it is:

There was a strong indicator in their charts at a certain time, and I asked the first man what happened. He said his father had died. I asked the other man, with the same chart, what happened, and he said he'd been on his first nude beach...

Obviously, the same chart had shown two very different events! Then, I asked the first man (by the way, I interviewed these men separately), "What did it mean when your father died?" He said that he'd felt like he'd had shackles removed (his father had been rather authoritarian). I asked the other man, "What did it mean to be on your first nude beach?" He said that he had dropped his shackles...

They used exactly the same, and not so common, word to describe what two very different events meant...

So, astrology doesn't predict events, it predicts meanings.

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Unread 07-04-2009, 07:26 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Well said, Amzolt, and an important message to be conveyed, esp to those, who use Astrology to determine their lives or make decisions for them!

I guess that while understanding the "meaning" of a certain configuration in a chart, a lot also depends on the question asked and the context. For instance, had one/both of the two men asked something like, can you see, if I will ever be able to come out of myself and experience freedom; some (say Uranus) configuration/transit or whatever may give some indications to that effect, and, since we know the "meaning" of, say, Uranus, we can (then) try to understand it in that context. What I am trying to say is that understanding the "meaning" 'within the scope' of the context/question makes the "meaning" perhaps more concrete and fitting to the situation, giving it a somewhat predictive character.

Another important thing to remember, when studying a chart, is that any particular configuration/aspect can mean different things/manifest itself in different ways.

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Unread 07-04-2009, 07:47 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Another important thing to remember, when studying a chart, is that any particular configuration/aspect can mean different things/manifest itself in different ways.
The aspecting planet those two men were responding to was Saturn...
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Unread 07-04-2009, 07:47 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Another important thing to remember, when studying a chart, is that any particular configuration/aspect can mean different things/manifest itself in different ways.


YES. Which is why it is virtually impossible to answer questions such as " Does Michael Jacksons chart say he is guilty or innocent of those charges?' by looking at his transits/progressions.

The chart describes the incident astrologically, but there is no way of telling the difference between being accused and arrested for child abuse, vs. actually doing the crime. They show up as the same thing astrologically, afflictions to 12th, 8th, 5th, from
Mars/Uranus/Neptune.
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Unread 07-04-2009, 08:00 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Astrology predicts ENERGY.......and that energy can be almost everything
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Unread 07-04-2009, 08:03 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
The aspecting planet those two men were responding to was Saturn...
Amzolt, thanks for naming the planet involved in the case of the two men you interviewed. However, it was not the planet responsible in the case of the two men that formed the crux of my previous post, but the fact that the context/question of the client often moulds an astrologer's understanding of the "meaning" in a particular way/direction, IMO.

AQ7

PS: Mr Hyde, that's a pretty & cool avatar there.
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Unread 07-04-2009, 09:10 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

I think people that have been studying, using and even teaching astrology will agree with a lot of what you have said. I think it's bit like some people here looking for or trying to predict a 'death signature'

Astrology cannot predict environmental, family influences or describe if you are King, prince or pauper.

Am sure some of the Traditionalist here may disagree cos of 'horary' (which I don't get into) but all questions can be answered here with enough experience (supposedly)
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Unread 07-04-2009, 09:52 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
...the context/question of the client often moulds an astrologer's understanding of the "meaning" in a particular way/direction...
In this particular case I wasn't performing as an astrologer giving a consultation. The men asked no questions. I was conducting research and asking all the questions. The meanings which flowed in those sessions weren't mine to supply; they were what the men told me...
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Unread 07-04-2009, 10:02 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
Am sure some of the Traditionalist here may disagree cos of 'horary' (which I don't get into) but all questions can be answered here with enough experience (supposedly)
What's interesting to me, with all the debate of astrology's supposed ability to predict events, is the scientific principle that, with a ton of experiential agreements with any given theory, that theory is never proven, only more clearly validated in its potential usefulness.

Yet, all it takes is one experiential fact that disagrees with the theory to disprove it...

My experience with those two men happened well over 25 years ago and it's taken most of that time for me to train myself to perform as an astrologer who accepts the disproof of the theory of astrological prediction of events...

Strange how persistently the ego-mind can cling to falsehoods, eh?
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Unread 07-05-2009, 01:24 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Strange indeed, it comes with years and years of experience. And those experiences just as you say differ. What works for others, doesn't work for others as well.

Confusing little world we live in
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Unread 07-05-2009, 02:55 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Amzolt,RE:
Many years ago, I had the opportunity to talk to two men, born of different mothers but at the same time at the same hospital. Since they had the same chart you'd think they would have had the same events happening in their lives, right? Well, all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory and here it is:

Sorry. I can't just *accept* that these two people had the *same chart*. It's most unlikely.
I wouldnt base any theory on something as anecdotal as this.
And are you de-bunking the whole practice of *Predictive Astrology*? Somehow, if it was good enough for William Lilly et al, it's good enough for me.
Predictive astrology CAN very accurately reflect the *types* of events that might occur-not an *exact occurrence*..but very experienced astrologers could potentially hone that down into a fine art.
Horary astrology is about *what will happen*. Are you suggesting this is invalid too?
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Unread 07-05-2009, 03:05 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
Originally Posted by lillyjgc View Post
Amzolt,RE:
Many years ago, I had the opportunity to talk to two men, born of different mothers but at the same time at the same hospital. Since they had the same chart you'd think they would have had the same events happening in their lives, right? Well, all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory and here it is:

Sorry. I can't just *accept* that these two people had the *same chart*. It's most unlikely.
I wouldnt base any theory on something as anecdotal as this.
I don't quite understand your saying "most unlikely". They were born in the same hospital at the same time (certified). This is not "anecdotal". It's a situation with two people born in the same place at the same time with the same chart...
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Unread 07-05-2009, 03:33 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

It's the absolute truth, even if some astrologer "predicted" something for you. If an astrologer tells you something is going to happen, don't you think that, if it does, there may just be a bit of self-fulfillment in that?

Well-here's a bit more anecdotal *proof*:My own personal astrologer accurately predicted the following events (not *meanings*) in my life:
My survival of a life threatening illness and the outcome of surgery.
The death of my son
The time of my house move
The finding of my stolen car
the return of my dog

I could go on, but you get the idea.
If what you believe is true, how would you account for this?
(Of course, you'll have to take my word for it, in much the same way you are asking us to overthrow our own beliefs about astrology based on just your post.)
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Unread 07-05-2009, 03:37 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by lillyjgc View Post
If what you believe is true, how would you account for this?
Please refer to this previous post...
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Unread 07-05-2009, 04:32 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Yes. that's your opinion. We will agree to disagree here.My own opinion (like yours) is based on my own *experiential facts*.I am most unlikely to change my view based on someone else's *experience*that happened a long time ago.
The area of Astrology that mosts interests me IS the predictive side.I see more point in being able to use astrology to steer a course through life, based on knowledge of the likelihoods/probabilities/possibilities than just using astrology to *understand oneself better*.Although that's in it too.

I do live my life being guided by the stars, and I have no hesitation in saying that.
Also, on the subject of *predicting death*, it has been done for thousands of years, using astrology.If it hasnt been done *well* maybe it simply means we have a lot more to learn.
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Unread 07-05-2009, 04:35 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

amzolt, I am 98% in your camp, and have often used similar language to explain to people why an astrologer really can't answer questions like "when will I get married?" or "am I doomed to be childless?" I think there are good or bad, likely or unlikely times for something to happen, and also that individuals have some degree of choice in most matters. My 2% out here relates to two factors:

1. Some astrologers have such amazingly fine-tuned predictive abilities that I suspect they are psychics. In such cases, I think a horoscope functions like a medium's crystal ball. It provides a way for the adept to focus. Of course such predictions would be consistent with the horoscope, but then a given transit or placement can suggest multiple, different outcomes.

2. Some astrologers use advanced methods that the average astrologer wouldn't practice. I have two examples similar to yours, amzolt, with astro-twins. One was with actual twins born closely together. Although there were slight differences in their charts, the differences were so slight that they didn't seem to explain why one twin had normal mental capabilities, and the other was autistic. On this forum I once saw an astro-twin for my daughter: same birth date, nearly same birth time, same ASC, just some difference in birth location. There were some striking similarities in their lives to date [both women in their 20s] but also some differences. These examples could support the "energy" or "meaning" theories; but an astrologer whom I really respect suggested that dwad charts might tell a different story. Dwads are based upon dividing each sign into 12 segments of 2.5 degrees, such that each forms its own little zodiac. A dwad chart can pick up finer-grained differences between astro twin charts. [ http://astrologeraliceportman.xanadu.../articles.html ]

So there's always the possibility that some astrologers are just better at predictions than others. On the other hand, I believe in a choice-centered astrology.
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Unread 07-05-2009, 05:23 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amzolt
O.K. What if an astrologer says some event happened in your past, and, in fact, it did happen?".............Believe it or not, what happened is that the astrologer saw a meaning in the chart and made a very good guess at the exact event.....
Hi Lilly,

Hasn't Amzolt already explained clearly here why his assertion is correct, despite the fact that accurate predictions can be made by applying other known factors and/or non-astrological skills (as explained by Aq7 and Waybread)?

Thus, your astrologer probably had some idea/knowledge of what was going on in your life at the time the predictions were made.......But, would those predictions have been as accurate if made solely from a chart chart of someone the astrologer had not met and knew absolutely nothing about?.........(Perhaps you could test this using a chart of someone you know well but the astrologer does not know at all).

And it seems to me that this is also the case with horary.......For example, knowing that I'm searching for a lost fish gives me the same information that Amzolt would have had if he'd known beforehand about the father's death/nudist introduction of these two men.......However, what if someone gave us a horary chart with specified significators but without the question?......We could still explain what the chart said/predicted, but couldn't be accurate about what it applied to.

Guess what I'm trying to say here is that Amzolt's assertion does not mean that predictive astrology is invalid........merely that events cannot be accurately predicted from "cold" readings of charts...........Which I suspect most astrologers/students would agree with wholeheartedly (including yourself).

EJ

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Unread 07-05-2009, 05:51 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

It is much easier to read a written book then it is to try and guess what the next page is. You have the past as a reference, but you can still be wrong. To be extremely accurate, as Waybread said you'd have to be psychic. Or just really into it. But such people are few and far between .
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Unread 07-05-2009, 07:41 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

That's why there are divisional charts and you have to interpret based on these finer factors and constellations. Even a few seconds make a difference.
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Unread 07-05-2009, 12:44 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Well, if the two people Amzolt formerly mentioned,lived in different places, we'd certainly have to consider *relocation astrology* as well.
I'm surprised that excellent astrology is being put down to *psychic abilities* here.The astrologer to whom I referred is in no way psychic, nor would claim to be.Sixty years of devoting one's life solely to the study of Astrology may have had something to do with the skill level though.
If a pianist plays a difficult piece exquisitely,do we automatically assume they must be channelling some great Master? Or do we acknowledge the work that went into their performance, even if it is beyond our comprehension *how* it was achieved?

I disagree strongly with the *self-fulfilling prophecy* clause too. If I relate this to the examples I gave, the death of my son was in no way the result of my actions, or wishes, I can assure you.However an astrologer accurately predicted that I would lose my son.
My survival of a life threatening illness and the outcome of surgery: The chart showed the skill of the surgeon would be enough.Correct. I am still here.

The time of my house move: The astrologer to whom I refer does not live in any proximity to me.I asked, When will I move? He was correct in terms of the timing.(and other details)
And yes, this was shown by transits to my Natal.
The finding of my stolen car: Yes. He told me it would be found, where (the direction) and how long it would take. Correct on all counts.
the return of my dog: This was an easy one for him.

I totally understand what is being said in regard to *blind readings* but many Astrologers accurately predict for people they've never met, by having a good understanding of the way transits affect natal aspects.
William Lilly somewhere in one of his books stressed the notion of*likelihoods*. In those days Astrology was done a different way.Charts were drawn by hand. Obviously there will be a different interpretation depending on *who* one is reading for. When Lilly was writing there was no concept of being able to draw up hundreds of charts a day and do readings across cyberspace.The process was designed to involve one on one interaction, in a context where there could be an exchange of information that helped the Astrologer to consider *likelihoods*.When done this way, there's no reason why a competent astrologer could not accurately predict certain events.

It's almost impossible to accurately forecast specific events for people who are not in any way known to you.But to say that predicting events is impossible whilst not taking into account the way Astrology was intended to be applied, denies the really excellent forecasters the credit they deserve, in my opinion.
Lillyjgc
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Unread 07-05-2009, 02:04 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by lillyjgc View Post
to say that predicting events is impossible whilst not taking into account the way Astrology was intended to be applied, denies the really excellent forecasters the credit they deserve, in my opinion.
Lillyjgc
My dear lilly,

I actually didn't say that predicting events was impossible, I said astrology doesn't predict events. And, yes, when I mentioned astrologers I said they can sometimes make very good guesses...

As far as "the way Astrology was intended to be applied", I feel each astrologer has a say in how they intend to apply astrology, in spite of how others have done it...
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Unread 07-05-2009, 02:24 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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My dear lilly,
I said astrology doesn't predict events.
Commenting on my own previous post:

One other consideration:

Those two men I interviewed had exactly the same chart...

How does one account for very different events--father's death and first nude beach experience--coming from exactly the same chart?
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Unread 07-05-2009, 02:35 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

My dearest Amzolt,

You have (possibly inadvertently!) raised an interesting question. Are the aspects that *make*a person good at astrology ALSO the aspects that generate psychic ability?
It's true that there are some astrologers who ARE also psychic. (I guess that's just their good luck to be gifted in that way) BUT,there are also excellent (predictive) astrologers who are NOT psychic.

I don't think astrology has anything to do with *guessing*.If you scrutinise a chart in enough detail, taking into account signs, aspects to planets, aspects to house cusps, midpoints, transits, solar return, lunar return, age harmonic etc etc etc and have a mind sufficiently developed to integrate and interpret that information, theoretically you would have a very proficient predictive astrologer.

If you watch what happened *last time* you had a certain transit, its not that hard over time and with practice to *predict* what might happen *next time* you have that transit. In that way one can predict for oneself.The more often one practises something, the more proficient one becomes.
I take your point about an aspect having more than one possible application/manifestation.A mars sun square will not be the same for everyone, but if you analyse that transit in relation to its integral involvement in the chart the following things for example could well be *predictable*:-
birth of a child, meeting of a partner, purchase of property,overseas travel, gain of inheritance, new job, separation/death of parents, ill health, surgery,arrest,marriage, etc etc etc.
This kind of predictive astrology is practised successfully every day even by relatively inexperienced astrologers and has been for at least hundreds of years.
If I recall correctly it was Astrologers who predicted the birth of Christ.They might have been channelling I guess.
Lillyjgc
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Unread 07-05-2009, 09:19 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Lilly, I think we both agree that some astrologers are simply much more skillful than others. They may have a talent for astrology that is not psychic, any more than having perfect pitch in music or an ear for foreign languages is psychic. And as you point out, some of them have been practising professionals for decades. They may use more "advanced" techniques, too, that the average astrologer doesn't. So in the hands of a really experienced, excellent astrologer [as with a really experienced excellent brain surgeon] there is a much higher probability of successfully predicting a specific outcome.

I am very sorry about the heart-breaking loss of your son. I surely didn't mean to imply that choice-centered astrology means that you chose for such a tragedy to happen. Choice-centered astrology generally means that most people have many times in their lives when they do have choices to make. Their choices have something to do with the outcomes of even the most difficult transits and progressions. Just for example [and not to toot my own horn] when I felt the full and difficult force of transiting Pluto square sun some years ago, I got myself into therapy with a really good clinical psychologist. This was a choice, and a positive one as it turned out.

But beyond this point, we surely have to acknowledge that many skillful, well-known astrologers--both traditional and modern--have made huge mistakes. And some of these mistakes made by traditional astrologers influenced astrology's demise as a credible academic subject. A case in point was the great French astrologer Jean-Baptiste Morin (1583-1659.) He predicted the death date of one of astrology's leading critics--and was wrong by 5 years. When a leading Jesuit scholar criticized the astrology of their day on the grounds that its predictions were often wrong, Morin conceded the point. His rebuttal was basically that other predictive fields at that time were wrong oftentimes, as well, so there was no need to single out astrology. (J. Tester, 1987, A History of Western Astrology, pp. 232-7.) Unfortunately for astrology, since then, Morin's comparables, such as medicine and navigation, have greatly increased in accuracy.

I think it is best not to bring the birth of Jesus into this discussion. As you know, many well-disposed people of other religions or of no religion question whether an actual man named Jesus ever lived; or whether, if Jesus of Nazareth did live, he was involved in all of the miracles and sayings attributed to him; as many of them have antecedants from other faiths that long pre-dated Christianity. Devout Christians may well accept your point, but I think this might be a topic for another thread and board.

But I think Lilly raises a good point. If some of us dispute astrology's fine-tuned predictive capabilities, is it possible that we just don't know enough, more advanced astrology?
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Unread 07-05-2009, 11:52 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Way, I was being a bit facetious there, with my allusion to Jesus..definitely don't want to offend *anyone*. But the birth of Christ is a documented historic event. Whether he was *Christ* or not is a theological issue not an astrological one..
I take your point about Morin..Maybe he should have stuck to what he did best, designing house systems!
I'm pretty sure I understood Amzolt's assertion that astrology cant predict events. Sorry Am, I still disagree with you! Potentially it can be done with great accuracy, it's just that most of us are simply not knowledgeable enough yet.But of course, that's only my opinion. Interesting discussion though..
Cheers
Lilly
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