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Modern Astrology For discussions on Modern Astrology only. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists. Specifically it relies on psychological, evolutionary, karmic, and non-western interpretation approaches and includes Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, and non-Ptolemaic aspects. The focus is more on psychological chart interpretation instead of prediction.)


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  #1  
Unread 07-08-2021, 06:10 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Ignorance of a planet beyond Saturn forced the ancient astrologers to use Saturn as Domicile-ruler of both Capricorn and Aquarius.

Now, we know better!

No memes or diagrams please.


Last edited by david starling; 07-08-2021 at 07:45 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 07-08-2021, 06:49 AM
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Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

David, by putting this thread in the Modern Astrology thread, you're creating an echo chamber because it forces out traditional astrologers.

Just from my experience, Aquarians don't fit the whole rebel thing. They certainly stand out, but not deliberately. Aquarians are rational, cool and collected. They are a combination of tradition and progression. They look out for the whole of humanity and try to point it in a positive direction. These traits are anything but rebellious. Aquarians construct with the intellect; rebels destroy with violence or brute force.

When watching the Astrology Podcast, Chris Brennan pointed out that Aquarius evolved and shifted to suit its new ruler: Uranus. When I observe Aquarians, they are serious and subdued people. There's nothing Uranian about them really. Saturn fits perfectly well.

From my experience, Tauruses/Leos are rebellious and off-putting. Or people with many debilitated planets, since they can't use the energy conventionally.

Last edited by AppLeo; 07-08-2021 at 06:53 AM.
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Unread 07-08-2021, 07:24 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
David, by putting this thread in the Modern Astrology thread, you're creating an echo chamber because it forces out traditional astrologers.

Just from my experience, Aquarians don't fit the whole rebel thing. They certainly stand out, but not deliberately. Aquarians are rational, cool and collected. They are a combination of tradition and progression. They look out for the whole of humanity and try to point it in a positive direction. These traits are anything but rebellious. Aquarians construct with the intellect; rebels destroy with violence or brute force.

When watching the Astrology Podcast, Chris Brennan pointed out that Aquarius evolved and shifted to suit its new ruler: Uranus. When I observe Aquarians, they are serious and subdued people. There's nothing Uranian about them really. Saturn fits perfectly well.

From my experience, Tauruses/Leos are rebellious and off-putting. Or people with many debilitated planets, since they can't use the energy conventionally.

I didn't say that Saturn doesn't have an affect on Aquarius. I said Aquarius has never really been Saturn's Domicile-sign.

Lacking information about the next planet out, the ancients weren't playing with a full deck of Sign-rulers.

Last edited by david starling; 07-08-2021 at 07:26 AM.
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Unread 07-08-2021, 07:35 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Basically, one () is about restrictions and limitations, and the other () is about freedom and an increase in abilities.
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Unread 07-08-2021, 07:40 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Also, Saturn is about the Earth-sign, material realm, and Uranian influence is about the Air-sign realm of intellect which includes astrology itself.

Last edited by david starling; 07-08-2021 at 07:46 AM.
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Unread 07-09-2021, 05:13 AM
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Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

I honestly didn't get the idea behind Saturn ruling Aquarius at first, but now I sorta do.

Saturn is a planet that rules time, objectivity, rigidness, among other things. I think that does perform well in the sign of Aquarius that is about logic, reason, aloof, averse to bias. Saturn would perform more ideally in a fixed air sign.

Well, at least that's the traditional conception of Aquarius.

As I said in a traditional thread, and much to the dismay of some, Aquarius is a complex energy (like any other sign) that can manifest itself in many levels. Uranus is a planet that does actually fit well with the sign, but it's not meant to represent personal qualities of the natives that have it in such a placement. Just like Neptune rules self-sacrifice, unconditional love, high high ideals and spiritual enlightenment and its highest level, Jupiter rules expansion, fairness and compassion to all at its own level. So with Aquarius, both planets express themselves comfortably in the same sign, but on different levels.
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Unread 07-09-2021, 05:54 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Thanks obsidian! Well-stated. My point is just about Saturn as actually being Domiciled in Aquarius. Referring to the original 7 Domicile-rulers, NOT ONE shared a Domicile-sign with another ruler. So, it actually breaks a pattern for one Sign to be the Domicile for 2 rulers.

Saturn is solidly ensconced in Capricorn, and between Uranian characteristics and Saturnian, Saturn is a better matchup with Capricorn than with Aquarius.

So, I'm saying that Saturn is the sole Domicile-ruler of Capricorn, and that Aquarius is already taken. And, as far as being a comfortable "guest" when being located in Aquarius, I would put Pluto, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and the Moon ahead of Saturn in that regard.

Last edited by david starling; 07-09-2021 at 06:10 AM.
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Unread 07-09-2021, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Thanks obsidian! Well-stated. My point is just about Saturn as actually being Domiciled in Aquarius. Referring to the original 7 Domicile-rulers, NOT ONE shared a Domicile-sign with another ruler. So, it actually breaks a pattern for one Sign to be the Domicile for 2 rulers.

Saturn is solidly ensconced in Capricorn, and between Uranian characteristics and Saturnian, Saturn is a better matchup with Capricorn than with Aquarius.

So, I'm saying that Saturn is the sole Domicile-ruler of Capricorn, and that Aquarius is already taken. And, as far as being a comfortable "guest" when being located in Aquarius, I would put Pluto, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and the Moon ahead of Saturn in that regard.
Interesting! Why would you say that these planets work better in Aquarius? Sparks my interest.

Also, I am a bit confused about what you said in your first idea. Of the 7 classical planets, none shared rulership with another sign (not even Saturn), so you don’t see that two planets sharing rulership over the same sign is correct?

How do you view Aquarius?

I personally believe that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are the most complex energies that would likely need for astrologers to reassess what “rulership” means, and for that matter, the meaning of dignity and strength. I also think this is of the essence to actually move forward in our understanding in the divide that is being caused by two planets apparently sharing a rulership.

And as a bit of a tangent, lack of nuance seems to be the biggest problem in astrological interpretations to me.
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Unread 07-09-2021, 07:04 AM
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Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

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Originally Posted by obsidianmineral View Post
Interesting! Why would you say that these planets work better in Aquarius? Sparks my interest.

Also, I am a bit confused about what you said in your first idea. Of the 7 classical planets, none shared rulership with another sign (not even Saturn), so you don’t see that two planets sharing rulership over the same sign is correct?

How do you view Aquarius?

I personally believe that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are the most complex energies that would likely need for astrologers to reassess what “rulership” means, and for that matter, the meaning of dignity and strength. I also think this is of the essence to actually move forward in our understanding in the divide that is being caused by two planets apparently sharing a rulership.

And as a bit of a tangent, lack of nuance seems to be the biggest problem in astrological interpretations to me.

I'm saying it's more in keeping with basic, traditional rulership pattern (one Domicile-ruler per Sign) than piggybacking Saturn into dual Domicle-rulership in modern astrology.
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Unread 07-09-2021, 07:04 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidianmineral View Post
Interesting! Why would you say that these planets work better in Aquarius? Sparks my interest.

Also, I am a bit confused about what you said in your first idea. Of the 7 classical planets, none shared rulership with another sign (not even Saturn), so you don’t see that two planets sharing rulership over the same sign is correct?

How do you view Aquarius?

I personally believe that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are the most complex energies that would likely need for astrologers to reassess what “rulership” means, and for that matter, the meaning of dignity and strength. I also think this is of the essence to actually move forward in our understanding in the divide that is being caused by two planets apparently sharing a rulership.

And as a bit of a tangent, lack of nuance seems to be the biggest problem in astrological interpretations to me.

I'm saying it's more in keeping with basic, traditional rulership patterning (one Domicile-ruler per Sign) than to specifically piggyback Saturn into dual Domicle-rulership in modern astrology.

And, that the piggybacking itself is a clumsy, half baked, misguided attempt to preserve all of the traditional rulerships.

I view Aquarius as the Sign of Mind-waves:

Last edited by david starling; 07-09-2021 at 07:30 AM.
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Unread 07-09-2021, 10:14 PM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Saturn is too heavy-handed to find Aquarius a suitable Domicile.

With one Domicile-ruler per Sign, Saturn is Domiciled in Capricorn.

Which isn't to say that Saturn can't be a strong influence in Aquarius, but it's not "happy" there.

Pluto is happiest in Scorpio, and Neptune is happiest in Pisces. That's what Domicile-signs are about.

Mercury and Venus, the two planets inside of Earth's solar orbit, appear as both morning and evening objects, suggesting a dual nature. That explains why they can be happy in two Signs, instead of just one, like the other Sign-rulers.

Last edited by david starling; 07-09-2021 at 10:35 PM.
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Unread 07-09-2021, 11:45 PM
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Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Sun and Moon ruler over Leo and Cancer respectively because they are the brightest. The opposite signs, Cap and Aqua are ruled by Saturn because it’s the darkest and dullest planet.
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Unread 07-10-2021, 03:22 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Sun and Moon ruler over Leo and Cancer respectively because they are the brightest. The opposite signs, Cap and Aqua are ruled by Saturn because it’s the darkest and dullest planet.
Saturn isn't dull. It's the Planet of the Rings!

In the Southern Hemisphere, the Sun and Moon rule two Winter-signs, when the days are darkest.
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Unread 07-10-2021, 05:37 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

The most important pattern for Domicile-rulers is the Modality/Element sequence. The Alexandrian astrologers knew about the Heliocentric model, through Aristarchus of Samos (c.3rd Century B.C.E.). I believe they chose those rulerships using the Heliocentric system as a cypher applied to the Earth-centered astrological model, starting with its Fixed, Fiery Sun as the Domicile-ruler of Leo, the Fixed-Fire sign in the Earth-centered sequence.

Ptolemy came into it later, and used Northern Hemispheric seasons, and gender, to explain what was already astrologically in place.

Last edited by david starling; 07-10-2021 at 05:46 AM.
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Unread 07-10-2021, 05:46 AM
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Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

I mean if you really want to go down this road, I would take it much further.

Aries - Mars
Taurus - Earth
Gemini - Mercury
Cancer - Moon
Leo - Sun
Virgo - Asteroids/Vulcan
Libra - Venus
Scorpio - Pluto
Sagittarius - Jupiter
Capricorn - Saturn
Aquarius - Uranus
Pisces - Neptune
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Unread 07-10-2021, 06:39 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
I mean if you really want to go down this road, I would take it much further.

Aries - Mars
Taurus - Earth
Gemini - Mercury
Cancer - Moon
Leo - Sun
Virgo - Asteroids/Vulcan
Libra - Venus
Scorpio - Pluto
Sagittarius - Jupiter
Capricorn - Saturn
Aquarius - Uranus
Pisces - Neptune
I'm using the Earth's Ages (Ages of Gaia) for its Domicile-rulership of Taurus; the Ascendant, which has connections to the Sun-god Apollo, god of archery, as a Domicile-ruler for Sagittarius; and, Jupiter as Domicile-ruler and Father-figure for Virgo.

As obsidian pointed out, the Domicile-ruler doesn't have to match all of the Sign-characteristics. Virgo does see the big picture, but pays extremely careful attention to details. For example, an architect creates the design for the entire structure as a whole, but has to be painstaking about the measurements and materials required to build it.

In the ancient Greek mythology, Athena was THE "Virgin goddess". She sprang from Zeus (Jupiter's) brow, and was the protector of the City-state. She awarded victory in battle, and was wise in the arts of peace. Her Roman counterpart was Minerva, goddess of Wisdom. That matches Virgo's analytical abilities, including strategy in warfare. Jupiter is happy in his daughter's own Sign.

I'm using only the 12 most important Indicators as Domicile-rulers, which includes the Ascendant and the Age-marker. That's why it required a new Precessional Age-marker, transiting due to Earth's wobble as it rotates, that travels through the tropical Zodiac. The old sidereal Age-marker doesn't transit the tropical Zodiac.

Last edited by david starling; 07-10-2021 at 07:05 AM.
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Unread 07-10-2021, 08:17 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
I mean if you really want to go down this road, I would take it much further.

Aries - Mars
Taurus - Earth
Gemini - Mercury
Cancer - Moon
Leo - Sun
Virgo - Asteroids/Vulcan
Libra - Venus
Scorpio - Pluto
Sagittarius - Jupiter
Capricorn - Saturn
Aquarius - Uranus
Pisces - Neptune

I can see leaving it as it is, with one Domicile-sign for all but the two inner planets, Merc and Venus, which have a dual nature. Gemini and Virgo are enough alike to share Mercury as Domicile-ruler, and Libra and Taurus are also compatible enough. It just isn't perfect.

Here's a take-off from an old expression: "Trying to get all astrologers to agree on just about anything is like herding cats."

Last edited by david starling; 07-10-2021 at 08:22 AM.
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Unread 09-02-2021, 01:57 AM
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Post Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

I have to disagree with AppLeo, here's a list of planetary rulerships that fits:
Aries - Mars/Sun.
Taurus - Eris (Largest dwarf planet and farthest astrological planet)/Venus.
Gemini - Mercury.
Cancer - Moon/Ceres.
Leo - Sun/Moon.
Virgo - Ceres (a planet-like asteroid, the first discovered one)/Mercury.
Libra - Venus/Eris.
Scorpio - Pluto/Mars.
Sagittarius - Jupiter/Neptune.
Capricorn - Saturn/Uranus.
Aquarius - Uranus/Saturn.
Pisces - Neptune/Jupiter.
My Saturn in Virgo sextile Uranus in Scorpio, 2 supposed rulers of my sun sign.
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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Unread 09-02-2021, 03:03 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

I have Saturn as *Foreign-ruler" of Aquarius: It has importance in Aqua, but it meets fierce resistance.
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Unread 09-02-2021, 04:00 AM
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Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

I think everyone is familiar with this "tree" of traditional domiciles, published by Ptolemy in Tetrabiblos although he didn't invent it. Note how the further-out planets correspond to distance from the sun and moon, as well as time away from the summer solstice.

Although in Ptolemy's day the sun was long past its ancient solstice in Leo, Leo would have been the hottest month.

Read the left-hand column top to bottom, and the right-hand column bottom to top.

sun: Leo............Moon: Cancer

Mercury: Virgo...Gemini

Venus: Libra......Taurus

Mars: Scorpio....Aries

Jupiter: Sag.... Pisces

Saturn: Capr....Aquarius

I look at both traditional and modern sign rulers.

I hope people can just pause on those old collections of static personality traits for a moment.

Basically Aquarius is the fixed air sign. Air is mental, even intellectual. So Aquarius is primarily motivated by ideas. As a fixed sign, once Aquarius fastens on an idea, it is loathe to change it without a much better reason than the reason why Aquarius adopted that idea in the first place.

The constellation Aquarius symbolizes a man pouring water from an urn. This "water" is the Aquarid meteor shower. Then in Mediterranean climates, winter is the rainy season. Rain has an affinity with the atmosphere (air) unlike the sea of Pisces or the half-goat half-fish of Capricorn.

Note that with any quadrant house system, you are likely to get Capricorn on the cusp of the sun's Aquarian house. When this happens, it strengthens the Saturnine nature of an Aquarian sun.

Think of famous Aquarian Abraham Lincoln, famous for the Emancipation Proclamation (Uranian) who also suffered from depression (Saturnine.) Think of famous Aquarian Charles Darwin, the man who liberated biology from Genesis. He could have published his work on evolution decades earlier but feared (Saturn) its hostile reception.

Famous Aquarians do come in various packages, ranging from ultra-conservatives Dick Cheney and Sarah Paulin to Ellen deGeneris, who broke the LGTBQ barrier on television.

Uranus at its worst is a disruptive unwanted influence. At its best, it is a force for liberation. People with sun square Uranus have to be hell-raisers in some way. With sun opposite Uranus, they probably have a perfect dread of disruptive people.
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  #21  
Unread 09-02-2021, 06:41 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

For Modernist astrologers, there are 3 major astrological Planets BEYOND Saturn. They exist for us as major influences in their OWN right.

Even if we INCLUDE the Domicile-rulerships as seen in Traditionalist astrology, NOT ONE SIGN has more than ONE DOMICILE-RULER PER SIGN.

As FULL-FLEDGED, Modernist influences, there's NO REASON WHATSOEVER why the OUTERMOST 3 shouldn't EACH have its OWN Domicile-sign.

No sense straddling the fence.
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Unread 09-02-2021, 07:12 AM
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Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
I mean if you really want to go down this road, I would take it much further.

Aries - Mars
Taurus - Earth
Gemini - Mercury
Cancer - Moon
Leo - Sun
Virgo - Asteroids/Vulcan
Libra - Venus
Scorpio - Pluto
Sagittarius - Jupiter
Capricorn - Saturn
Aquarius - Uranus
Pisces - Neptune
Could Virgo be ruled by Chiron?
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Unread 09-02-2021, 07:51 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
Could Virgo be ruled by Chiron?
Is that necessary?

Only 2 Planets are INSIDE Earth's orbit around the Sun. And for reason, they appear as BOTH Morning AND Evening Stars.

So, that gives them the ability to be Domiciled in 2 DIFFERENT Signs.

In Ancient Sumeria, where recorded history as we know it began, Inanna/Ishtar was goddess of Justice, wielding a sword as Morningstar, and goddess of erotic Love, as Evening-star.

Given that the Sign Libra involves the Scales of Justice, that would be the Domicile-sign of Morningstar Venus, and Earthy Sign Taurus would be her Domicile-sign of her alter ego, the Evening-star.

Tricky Mercury is also both a Morningstar and Evening-star, and is also entitled to 2 Domicile-signs. It's not as clear as in the case of Venus, but I'm inclined to have the Morningstar version of Mercury Domicled in Gemini, and in his guise as an Evening-star, Virgo would be his Domicile-sign.
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Unread 09-03-2021, 12:00 AM
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Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
For Modernist astrologers, there are 3 major astrological Planets BEYOND Saturn. They exist for us as major influences in their OWN right.

Even if we INCLUDE the Domicile-rulerships as seen in Traditionalist astrology, NOT ONE SIGN has more than ONE DOMICILE-RULER PER SIGN.

As FULL-FLEDGED, Modernist influences, there's NO REASON WHATSOEVER why the OUTERMOST 3 shouldn't EACH have its OWN Domicile-sign.

No sense straddling the fence.
David, it's not about straddling the fence. It's about seeing what works in chart interpretation. I learned modern natal chart interpretation, but when I decided to look at traditional rulers as well, I found they also had interpretive value.

Particularly in horary astrology, I use the modern outers as supplementary data points when relevant, but I use the traditional domiciles for house cusp and sign rulers.

Horary is very time sensitive, and a planet like Pluto hanging out in one sign for 20 years just skews the results.

I think modern astrology is flexible and pragmatic enough to include a certain amount of tradition. Which we do anyway.
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Unread 09-03-2021, 12:10 AM
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Re: Saturn was never Domicled in Aquarius

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Originally Posted by katydid View Post
Could Virgo be ruled by Chiron?
I wouldn't.

Virgo has so many rulerships besides health; and apart from medical astrology I don't conflate signs and houses. Chiron actually isn't a planet, but has properties resembling both asteroids (Centaurs) and comets.

The centaur of Sagittarius was probably Chiron (Kheiron.)
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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