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Predictive Astrology This is the place to discuss the astrology of the past, present, and future. Includes eclipses, transits, progressions, planetary returns.


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  #1  
Unread 07-04-2009, 05:41 PM
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Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

This may be really hard for some folks to believe, but here it is: Astrology does not, will not, and never has predicted events.

"What?!"

Yes. It's the absolute truth, even if some astrologer "predicted" something for you. If an astrologer tells you something is going to happen, don't you think that, if it does, there may just be a bit of self-fulfillment in that?

What astrology does predict or reveal is Meaning.

"O.K. What if an astrologer says some event happened in your past, and, in fact, it did happen?"

Believe it or not, what happened is that the astrologer saw a meaning in the chart and made a very good guess at the exact event. Here's some proof of that:

Many years ago, I had the opportunity to talk to two men, born of different mothers but at the same time at the same hospital. Since they had the same chart you'd think they would have had the same events happening in their lives, right? Well, all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory and here it is:

There was a strong indicator in their charts at a certain time, and I asked the first man what happened. He said his father had died. I asked the other man, with the same chart, what happened, and he said he'd been on his first nude beach...

Obviously, the same chart had shown two very different events! Then, I asked the first man (by the way, I interviewed these men separately), "What did it mean when your father died?" He said that he'd felt like he'd had shackles removed (his father had been rather authoritarian). I asked the other man, "What did it mean to be on your first nude beach?" He said that he had dropped his shackles...

They used exactly the same, and not so common, word to describe what two very different events meant...

So, astrology doesn't predict events, it predicts meanings.
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Unread 07-04-2009, 07:26 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Well said, Amzolt, and an important message to be conveyed, esp to those, who use Astrology to determine their lives or make decisions for them!

I guess that while understanding the "meaning" of a certain configuration in a chart, a lot also depends on the question asked and the context. For instance, had one/both of the two men asked something like, can you see, if I will ever be able to come out of myself and experience freedom; some (say Uranus) configuration/transit or whatever may give some indications to that effect, and, since we know the "meaning" of, say, Uranus, we can (then) try to understand it in that context. What I am trying to say is that understanding the "meaning" 'within the scope' of the context/question makes the "meaning" perhaps more concrete and fitting to the situation, giving it a somewhat predictive character.

Another important thing to remember, when studying a chart, is that any particular configuration/aspect can mean different things/manifest itself in different ways.

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Unread 07-04-2009, 07:47 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Another important thing to remember, when studying a chart, is that any particular configuration/aspect can mean different things/manifest itself in different ways.
The aspecting planet those two men were responding to was Saturn...
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Unread 02-25-2012, 01:24 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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The aspecting planet those two men were responding to was Saturn...
That is fascinating!! I was trying to guess which planet was involved, I came to the conclusion maybe Uranus...even though it didn't make much sense to me. Saturn surprised me, but instantly made perfect sense. I know it's the planet of restriction, did not know it releases as well, interesting.
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Unread 07-04-2009, 07:47 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Another important thing to remember, when studying a chart, is that any particular configuration/aspect can mean different things/manifest itself in different ways.


YES. Which is why it is virtually impossible to answer questions such as " Does Michael Jacksons chart say he is guilty or innocent of those charges?' by looking at his transits/progressions.

The chart describes the incident astrologically, but there is no way of telling the difference between being accused and arrested for child abuse, vs. actually doing the crime. They show up as the same thing astrologically, afflictions to 12th, 8th, 5th, from
Mars/Uranus/Neptune.
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Unread 07-04-2009, 08:00 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Astrology predicts ENERGY.......and that energy can be almost everything
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Unread 07-04-2009, 08:03 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
The aspecting planet those two men were responding to was Saturn...
Amzolt, thanks for naming the planet involved in the case of the two men you interviewed. However, it was not the planet responsible in the case of the two men that formed the crux of my previous post, but the fact that the context/question of the client often moulds an astrologer's understanding of the "meaning" in a particular way/direction, IMO.

AQ7

PS: Mr Hyde, that's a pretty & cool avatar there.
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Unread 07-04-2009, 09:10 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

I think people that have been studying, using and even teaching astrology will agree with a lot of what you have said. I think it's bit like some people here looking for or trying to predict a 'death signature'

Astrology cannot predict environmental, family influences or describe if you are King, prince or pauper.

Am sure some of the Traditionalist here may disagree cos of 'horary' (which I don't get into) but all questions can be answered here with enough experience (supposedly)
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Unread 07-04-2009, 10:02 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
Am sure some of the Traditionalist here may disagree cos of 'horary' (which I don't get into) but all questions can be answered here with enough experience (supposedly)
What's interesting to me, with all the debate of astrology's supposed ability to predict events, is the scientific principle that, with a ton of experiential agreements with any given theory, that theory is never proven, only more clearly validated in its potential usefulness.

Yet, all it takes is one experiential fact that disagrees with the theory to disprove it...

My experience with those two men happened well over 25 years ago and it's taken most of that time for me to train myself to perform as an astrologer who accepts the disproof of the theory of astrological prediction of events...

Strange how persistently the ego-mind can cling to falsehoods, eh?
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Unread 07-04-2009, 09:52 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
...the context/question of the client often moulds an astrologer's understanding of the "meaning" in a particular way/direction...
In this particular case I wasn't performing as an astrologer giving a consultation. The men asked no questions. I was conducting research and asking all the questions. The meanings which flowed in those sessions weren't mine to supply; they were what the men told me...
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Unread 07-06-2009, 05:17 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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Originally Posted by amzolt View Post
This may be really hard for some folks to believe, but here it is: Astrology does not, will not, and never has predicted events.

"What?!"

Yes. It's the absolute truth, even if some astrologer "predicted" something for you. If an astrologer tells you something is going to happen, don't you think that, if it does, there may just be a bit of self-fulfillment in that?
I read the rest of your post, but it left me scratching my head. Don't you realize that the same logic is used to discredit astrology, in all ways?

For instance, even if you rather accurately describe key elements of a client's personality, there is no end to the line of people who are waiting to say that you have made lucky guesses based on hunches or elements of cold readings.

You may find it easier to defend "meanings" more than events for the obvious reason that meanings are more nuanced, subtle, and therefore more open to interpretation.
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Unread 07-06-2009, 05:23 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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You may find it easier to defend "meanings" more than events for the obvious reason that meanings are more nuanced, subtle, and therefore more open to interpretation.
I defend the prediction of meanings over prediction of events because the prediction of events was disproven by the experience I related.

I'm facing the truth of astrology...
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Unread 07-06-2009, 05:36 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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I defend the prediction of meanings over prediction of events because the prediction of events was disproven by the experience I related.
From my perspective I would say that the experience you related caused you to dismiss the validity of event prediction, based only on your own personal experience.

I have never attempted to use astrology to predict events. However, my mind remains open.

If you so choose, you can look at my birth chart and decide whether I am patholigically argumentative or extremely fair—or a bit of both. But I am adverse to making sweeping judgments based only on my own personal experience or my own success/lack of success. Curse of Libra Sun/Moon?
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Unread 07-06-2009, 05:40 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

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From my perspective I would say that the experience you related caused you to dismiss the validity of event prediction, based only on your own personal experience.

I have never attempted to use astrology to predict events. However, my mind remains open.
Perhaps you haven't seen this comment I posted further down the thread:

What's interesting to me, with all the debate of astrology's supposed ability to predict events, is the scientific principle that, with a ton of experiential agreements with any given theory, that theory is never proven, only more clearly validated in its potential usefulness.

Yet, all it takes is one experiential fact that disagrees with the theory to disprove it...

My experience with those two men happened well over 25 years ago and it's taken most of that time for me to train myself to perform as an astrologer who accepts the disproof of the theory of astrological prediction of events...

Strange how persistently the ego-mind can cling to falsehoods, eh?
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Unread 07-06-2009, 05:58 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
Originally Posted by amzolt View Post
Perhaps you haven't seen this comment I posted further down the thread:

What's interesting to me, with all the debate of astrology's supposed ability to predict events, is the scientific principle that, with a ton of experiential agreements with any given theory, that theory is never proven, only more clearly validated in its potential usefulness.

Yet, all it takes is one experiential fact that disagrees with the theory to disprove it...
I did read that. However, I do think we are on shaky ground the moment we use scientific principles or the "scientific method" to investigate astrology.

Astrology remains elusive, slippery, mysterious. Because of my own belief in the idea that "things should make sense if they are believed", I have to assume that many things that appear "non-scientific" or "superstitious" or "unsupported" do so because of limititations in what we know.

In other words, if astrology actually can predict events, I expect that eventually science will "grow" enough to find ways to prove it.

So far it has not done so.

But it has not proved astrology's ability to give insights into character either. This *IS* the hitch:
Quote:
Yet, all it takes is one experiential fact that disagrees with the theory to disprove it...
In my view if there are many examples of events having been predicted correctly, one that misfires is not going to convince me that the whole idea is false. However, now we have the problem of investigating all predictions made by astrologer A or B in a controlled experiment, then evaluating the results based on some measuring stick. What percentage of hits would be considered significant? Or what hit rate would fall into the range of "chance hits"?

I would love to find a set of experiments validating EITHER prediction OR character analysis that would finally be accepted by scientists.

I have yet to see one.
Quote:
Strange how persistently the ego-mind can cling to falsehoods, eh?
Yes, it is. We would be in a perpetual state of observing with few if any conclusions were we to reach a true level of open-mindedness. Or at least our conclusions would be very, very different. It's a rather Buddhist way of looking at "reality", isn't it?
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Unread 07-08-2009, 10:49 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

So many people have missed so many points of what I originally posted that I thought it might help if I re-posted; then, I thought, no, it's right there for anyone who wants to understand...

Still, I'm concerned that so many have missed the most important statement I made:

"...all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory..."
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Unread 07-08-2009, 11:57 AM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
"...all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory..."
Amzolt, I dont think we overlooked this statement. The point is, that you are the one who disapproves when you see contrary occurrences. You apparently expected both men to have the same experience, either both loosing their father or both going nude. Because this did not happen, and in your 25 years of research you also found that things did not always show the same result, you probably concluded that therefore we cannot make predictions of an event.

It seems you want things always to be exactly correct or otherwise it cannot be proven to be reliable. But this is astrology we are talking about, not mathematics, and I dont think that this rule can be applied here. I dont think we can talk about a theory in astrology, the same way we use it in physics or math. Astrology is an art and three painters (astrologers) can paint the same landscape (chart) in different ways but they will probably be able to give us all the same impression(event).
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Unread 07-08-2009, 04:54 PM
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disproving a theory, to amzolt

amzolt,

You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amzolt View Post
all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory...So, astrology doesn't predict events, it predicts meanings...Is it possible in this forum to share experience without hairsplitting debate?
It is not true that it takes "one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory". There is something in statistics called "random error", indicating that sometimes errors "creep" into the calculations (more here: http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...dom-error.html ). So simply because there is one occurrence in the negative of a theory, this does not disprove the theory. This means you have not necessarily disproven the theory "astrology predicts events": your results could have simply been a "random error". And, as Frank correctly points out, your example shows only that the astrologer could not predict events but gives no proof that the event could not have been predicted by a different astrologer using the same astrology system (rectifying the chart, double-checking the birth time, location, finding the differences between the charts, etc.).

In answer to your question about posting without a debate: since this is a discussion forum for astrology, any and all opinions put on this forum are open to civil debate (i.e., no attacking posts, please!). So if you post your idea and someone has something to add to it or to disagree about it, expect a debate! Personally, I like this sort of interaction since I can get a new perspective or idea about my point of view, and sometimes I decide to change my original opinion based on what I heard. Whether or not you choose to participate in the debate or change your opinion is, of course, entirely up to you!

Debating the point,

Tim
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Unread 07-08-2009, 05:50 PM
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Re: disproving a theory, to amzolt

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It is not true that it takes "one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory". There is something in statistics called "random error", indicating that sometimes errors "creep" into the calculations...
Try this on for size...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
...your example shows only that the astrologer could not predict events but gives no proof that the event could not have been predicted by a different astrologer using the same astrology system (rectifying the chart, double-checking the birth time, location, finding the differences between the charts, etc.).
When I said the birth times of those two fellows were "certified" I was saying that all the criteria you mention were accounted for. Plus, my contention doesn't rest on proof but on disproof, scientifically speaking...
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Unread 07-08-2009, 08:51 PM
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other variables, to amzolt

amzolt,

You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amzolt View Post
Try this on for size...When I said the birth times of those two fellows were "certified" I was saying that all the criteria you mention were accounted for. Plus, my contention doesn't rest on proof but on disproof, scientifically speaking
Hey! No fair! I gave you a few words and you gave me a philosophical treatise! Instead of linking to a philosophy page, please let me know in plain words what your point is.

And I still think you may be missing my point: you haven't "disproven" anything, scientifically speaking, since there are lots of other possible reasons that you couldn't predict an event astrologically, besides saying astrology itself was the reason. That is: the astrology might not have predicted the event because the person doing the astrology didn't know what to look for to distinguish between the two men, the astrology might not have predicted the event because one or both men didn't know their birth time and made a guess, the astrology might not have predicted the event because the astrological system used by the astrologer was not designed to be predictive, the astrology might not have predicted the event because...etc. Since there are so many variables in this "experiment", there are a lot of alternative answers to the one answer you have chosen.

That said, there is another issue with your argument, since astrology has very much been used in the past and in the present, to predict events, and sometimes with startling success. As lilly stated about Lilly : the astrologer Lilly very much used astrology to predict an event, not a meaning. And he was very accurate about the event, according to all the records we have today.

Personally, I think astrology can be used to predict "probabilities" of events. And the more the astrologer knows about the person, the more accurate they can predict this "probability". However, once the person understands the energies that lead to the probable event, that person can take action in their life to use the energies to change the event, if they wish.

Looking at the astro-probabilities,

Tim
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Unread 07-08-2009, 08:59 PM
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Re: other variables, to amzolt

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Hey! No fair!

.......................................

Tim
Well, your most recent post ignores many things I've already said in this thread...

Like:

It doesn't matter, scientifically, how many pluses are scored for a theory; if there is one minus, the theory is in grave jeopardy...

Plus, you seem to keep forgetting that I used rigorous scientific interview procedures with those two men--I wasn't trying to predict anything; I was gathering their reactions to dates I set before them; so, any discussion about my "attempts at prediction" are entirely beside the point...
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Unread 07-08-2009, 10:03 PM
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agree to disagree, to amzolt

amzolt,

You said:
Quote:
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It doesn't matter, scientifically, how many pluses are scored for a theory; if there is one minus, the theory is in grave jeopardy...I used rigorous scientific interview procedures...I wasn't trying to predict anything
We'll have to agree to disagree, then! I think the scientific method has to do with proving theories, not with disproving theories. Since you weren't trying to prove anything, you weren't being scientific ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method ). And (as mentioned) one "minus" does not eliminate an entire theory in science, because there are "random error" issues. The scientist, when they find that their theory is not proven by the test data, redoes the test to see whether or not there was some kind of "random error". If the theory is again proven they do the test a few more times just to be certain.

All this aside, maybe the issue is simply language. If we say that "meanings" and "events" are the same thing...the problem goes away!

Looking for balance,

Tim
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Unread 07-08-2009, 10:10 PM
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Re: other variables, to amzolt

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Well, your most recent post ignores many things I've already said in this thread...
Actually, I think several people have tried to listen very fairly to your points. Both EJ and Tim have been respectful, polite, and from where I sit both have listened carefully to you.

Not once have you addressed the point about exact birthtimes being all but impossible to prove.

You are expecting us to accept, on faith, that the two men you interviewed were born at exactly the same time, the same minute. Even if both men could prove identical recorded birthtimes, on birth certificates, this still assumes that those recorded time are 100% accurate, and that is something we will never know.

Please correct me if I am in error, but I believe the idea that events predicted will be the same, using two different charts, assumes that they are identical, meaning absolutely NO difference in Ascendant.

If there is even the tiniest difference in Ascendant, thus changing the cusps of all houses even the smallest amount, theoretically the charts are not the same.

I am not debating the prediction of events. I'll let other people decide whether or not it can be done.

I am debating your your assumption that your own data is completely reliable.
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Unread 07-09-2009, 03:00 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Since so many in this thread have ignored what I actually said and, after repeated attempts to explain, still can't hear what I'm saying, I leave this discussion with but one remark: my original post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by amzolt View Post
This may be really hard for some folks to believe, but here it is: Astrology does not, will not, and never has predicted events.

"What?!"

Yes. It's the absolute truth, even if some astrologer "predicted" something for you. If an astrologer tells you something is going to happen, don't you think that, if it does, there may just be a bit of self-fulfillment in that?

What astrology does predict or reveal is Meaning.

"O.K. What if an astrologer says some event happened in your past, and, in fact, it did happen?"

Believe it or not, what happened is that the astrologer saw a meaning in the chart and made a very good guess at the exact event. Here's some proof of that:

Many years ago, I had the opportunity to talk to two men, born of different mothers but at the same time at the same hospital. Since they had the same chart you'd think they would have had the same events happening in their lives, right? Well, all it takes is one contrary occurrence of something to disprove a theory and here it is:

There was a strong indicator in their charts at a certain time, and I asked the first man what happened. He said his father had died. I asked the other man, with the same chart, what happened, and he said he'd been on his first nude beach...

Obviously, the same chart had shown two very different events! Then, I asked the first man (by the way, I interviewed these men separately), "What did it mean when your father died?" He said that he'd felt like he'd had shackles removed (his father had been rather authoritarian). I asked the other man, "What did it mean to be on your first nude beach?" He said that he had dropped his shackles...

They used exactly the same, and not so common, word to describe what two very different events meant...

So, astrology doesn't predict events, it predicts meanings.
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Unread 07-09-2009, 04:11 PM
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Re: Astrology Predicts Meanings, Not Events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amzolt
.....I leave this discussion with but one remark: my original post...
And that post says only that "Astrology does not, will not, and never has predicted events".........(with which I agree)

It does not say anywhere that "specific events cannot be predicted"........An assertion you make later in the thread without (imo) any supporting evidence/explanation.....(And with which I strongly disagree).

Last edited by EJ53; 07-10-2009 at 05:48 AM.
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