Redeeming qualities of Saturn in Traditional?

Are there any? Reading traditional material, it seems Saturn is nothing but a negative and restricting planet. Even its most positive aspects to other planets, like involvement in a grand trine, have an association with a decidedly negative energy. I know modern gives plenty of positive attributes to Saturn's influence but the more I look into Traditional the more accurate it seems to be and frankly I am unsettled because Saturn is the dominant planet in my chart. Does Saturn bring anything good?

Zonark said:

Are there any? Reading traditional material, it seems Saturn is nothing but a negative and restricting planet. Even its most positive aspects to other planets, like involvement in a grand trine, have an association with a decidedly negative energy. I know modern gives plenty of positive attributes to Saturn's influence but the more I look into Traditional the more accurate it seems to be and frankly I am unsettled because Saturn is the dominant planet in my chart. Does Saturn bring anything good?

Click to expand...

Hey Zonark, welcome to the dark side. Just kidding. I am curious what you are or have been reading?

Saturn does have positive qualities associated with it. Depending on a host of factors, chief among them sect, you can learn from the chart how Saturn will manefest. Keep in mind that Saturn isn't called the greater malefic for nothing though.

I have a several books with descriptions of Saturn's positive attributes. Give me a bit to find them for you...and in the meantime maybe someone more learned will come along and post an answer.

Saturn is the planet of maturity and conscientiousness. You're aware of time and its passing. Someone with a strong Saturn is traditionally more somber but also filled with common sense. It's hard in a sense to be young and watch the idiotic immaturity of peers around you, as you feel older when you're young. It's true what they say, that things get better with time. I have a strong Saturn in my chart and have grown to like it. I appreciate quality and refinement. It can be restrictive but I would rather have Saturn in my chart than something which makes me obnoxious or run roughshod over others. There's nothing wrong with being serious, considerate, polite and filled with common sense.

tsmall said:

Hey Zonark, welcome to the dark side. Just kidding. I am curious what you are or have been reading?

Saturn does have positive qualities associated with it. Depending on a host of factors, chief among them sect, you can learn from the chart how Saturn will manefest. Keep in mind that Saturn isn't called the greater malefic for nothing though.

I have a several books with descriptions of Saturn's positive attributes. Give me a bit to find them for you...and in the meantime maybe someone more learned will come along and post an answer.

Click to expand...

Well the only traditional astrologer I can definitely say based on what I've read who described Saturn as negative is William Lilly. In plenty of other traditional excerpts I've read though, Saturn is always described as 'malefic'.

All right, first up is Abu Ma'ashar. I need to keep the quote to 100 words per forum rules so I'll use ellipses. It comes from Dykes' Introductions to Traditional Astrology as a translation of Abbrieviations of the Introduction. Bolded parts are my own emphasis.

But the nature of Saturn [is] malign, for he is cold and dry, melancholic, dim, stinking, gluttonous but still of good association...and when he shows provisions, he shows much; and when he takes away, he takes away much...but truth-telling, understanding,...an inheritor...occupied in knowledge...

Click to expand...

Same book (Dykes' IA) this time quoting al-Qabisi

And if he were made fortunate, he will be of true esteem, taking the time to do things...And if he were fortunate (in assets) he signifies [of] ancient and lasting things, like real estate...And he signifies faraway foreign travels...

Click to expand...

Valens has this to say

It puts into one's hands great ranks and distinguished positions, supervisions, management of other's property, and the fathership of other's children.

Click to expand...

There's the three quotes I'm allowed, but you can see that Saturn has plenty of "good" attributed to him.

allie_b said:

Saturn is the planet of maturity and conscientiousness. You're aware of time and its passing. Someone with a strong Saturn is traditionally more somber but also filled with common sense. It's hard in a sense to be young and watch the idiotic immaturity of peers around you, as you feel older when you're young. It's true what they say, that things get better with time. I have a strong Saturn in my chart and have grown to like it. I appreciate quality and refinement. It can be restrictive but I would rather have Saturn in my chart than something which makes me obnoxious or run roughshod over others. There's nothing wrong with being serious, considerate, polite and filled with common sense.

Click to expand...

That seems like a good way to look at it but is it based on traditional understanding? I see qualities like that often attributed to Jupiter (politeness and good sense, at least in a cultural manner) but often Saturn is given descriptions like bestowing laziness, cowardice and cynicism. The descriptions I've read all seem wholly negative and the things you've attributed to Saturn here I've seen attributed to the other planets first.

I probably just haven't read nearly enough traditional material.

Where you find Saturn is where you can best focus and assume responsibility. It's about form, discipline, responsiblity. As stated previously, it shows maturity. It's often called the taskmaster of the zodiac. That sounds negative, but many people lack self direction and discipline, so a taskmaster can assist with that process. Whether in the form of a parent, a teacher, a drill sargeant. They 'set us to task', showing us the path to responsibility and discipline that is required to succeed.

tsmall said:

All right, first up is Abu Ma'ashar. I need to keep the quote to 100 words per forum rules so I'll use ellipses. It comes from Dykes' Introductions to Traditional Astrology as a translation of Abbrieviations of the Introduction. Bolded parts are my own emphasis.



Same book (Dykes' IA) this time quoting al-Qabisi



Valens has this to say



There's the three quotes I'm allowed, but you can see that Saturn has plenty of "good" attributed to him.

Click to expand...

I do see yes, it's not so much 'good' fortune as most people would offhandedly think of it, more a propensity to bestow opportunity in the guise of heavy responsibility?

Zonark said:

Well the only traditional astrologer I can definitely say based on what I've read who described Saturn as negative is William Lilly. In plenty of other traditional excerpts I've read though, Saturn is always described as 'malefic'.

Click to expand...

Ok, let's start with Lilly. What does he have to say about Saturn, when well dignified?

Quote from CA p. 58

Then he is profound in Imagination, in his Acts severe (*severe here as a synonym for austere), in words reserved, in speaking and giving very spare, in labour patient, in arguing or disputing grave (*grave here as a synonym for serious), in obtaining the goods of this life studious and solicitous, in all manner of actions severe.

Click to expand...

What is so horrible about that? In fact, this describes my grandfather perfectly. He was a wonderful, loving man of very few words, who took even the questions and debates of a child seriously. He wasn't very demonstrative of affection, but he was always willing to help someone in need...after careful consideration of both the person and the consequences. He also is the one who told me that the day you stop learning is the day you die...even if you continue to breathe for another 40 or 50 years.

Have you read the "negative" attributes of even the benefic planets? Sometimes, it is all to easy to miss the good in what has been written, especially since the language we use today is quite different from that of the past.

Also, have you completely delineated your Saturn using traditional methods?

tsmall said:

Ok, let's start with Lilly. What does he have to say about Saturn, when well dignified?

Quote from CA p. 58



What is so horrible about that? In fact, this describes my grandfather perfectly. He was a wonderful, loving man of very few words, who took even the questions and debates of a child seriously. He wasn't very demonstrative of affection, but he was always willing to help someone in need...after careful consideration of both the person and the consequences. He also is the one who told me that the day you stop learning is the day you die...even if you continue to breathe for another 40 or 50 years.

Have you read the "negative" attributes of even the benefic planets? Sometimes, it is all to easy to miss the good in what has been written, especially since the language we use today is quite different from that of the past.

Also, have you completely delineated your Saturn using traditional methods?

Click to expand...

Thank you for this Tsmall, looks like I've started out misunderstanding Saturn's place in traditional. It sounds like a very good planet to have as a chart ruler.

I haven't delineated it yet.

Zonark said:

Thank you for this Tsmall, looks like I've started out misunderstanding Saturn's place in traditional. It sounds like a very good planet to have as a chart ruler.

I haven't delineated it yet.

Click to expand...

Are you certain that Saturn is your Lord of the Geniture?

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/geniture.html

I don't think it would be out of line for you to post your chart (anonymized if necessary) and see what traditional delineations you get.

As far as I know (and hey, I'm just a newbie too!) we are mostly concerned with Saturn's condition, sect, and position in the chart...from which we will look at the houses Saturn rules, and the houses he affects in order to actually predict events and themes. Not so much about whether Saturn is a taskmaster or teacher. Though I can say that Saturn could show you what you are most afraid of, and that isn't modern, although modern circles around the edges of it. Have you taken the skyscript tutorial on dignity and debility?

One thing I <from what I have observed/learned> believe is that one cannot learn traditional astrology from the www alone. If you want to start, eternalautumn just recently posted a thread made into a sticky with resources that are availble on the internet. (And why none of the rest of us thought of it is a complete mystery to me...) A decent book that at least explains in general the fundamental philosophies at the foundation of traditional astrology is On the Heavenly Spheres. Caveat that even when I finally purchased it I found a bunch of things I didn't agree with...but when I read Parker's Astrology I wasn't exactly floored either.

Gradually you can work into IA which I referenced above. As a text book I have found none better, simply because Benjamin Dykes takes the time to explain the etymology of the terms/words used, compares them between different texts/eras, and explains his own conclusions...kind of like when BobZ posts here.

Edit to add...I got really, really lucky. Because here at AW, I found several people who were willing to answer questions and take a newbie under their wing. Kai, JUPITERASC, dr. farr...all have been most generous with their time and expertise. My point being that when the student is ready, the teacher will come.

tsmall said:

Are you certain that Saturn is your Lord of the Geniture?

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/geniture.html

I don't think it would be out of line for you to post your chart (anonymized if necessary) and see what traditional delineations you get.

As far as I know (and hey, I'm just a newbie too!) we are mostly concerned with Saturn's condition, sect, and position in the chart...from which we will look at the houses Saturn rules, and the houses he affects in order to actually predict events and themes. Not so much about whether Saturn is a taskmaster or teacher. Though I can say that Saturn could show you what you are most afraid of, and that isn't modern, although modern circles around the edges of it. Have you taken the skyscript tutorial on dignity and debility?

One thing I <from what I have observed/learned> believe is that one cannot learn traditional astrology from the www alone. If you want to start, eternalautumn just recently posted a thread made into a sticky with resources that are availble on the internet. (And why none of the rest of us thought of it is a complete mystery to me...) A decent book that at least explains in general the fundamental philosophies at the foundation of traditional astrology is On the Heavenly Spheres. Caveat that even when I finally purchased it I found a bunch of things I didn't agree with...but when I read Parker's Astrology I wasn't exactly floored either.

Gradually you can work into IA which I referenced above. As a text book I have found none better, simply because Benjamin Dykes takes the time to explain the etymology of the terms/words used, compares them between different texts/eras, and explains his own conclusions...kind of like when BobZ posts here.

Edit to add...I got really, really lucky. Because here at AW, I found several people who were willing to answer questions and take a newbie under their wing. Kai, JUPITERASC, dr. farr...all have been most generous with their time and expertise. My point being that when the student is ready, the teacher will come.

Click to expand...

Sorry for the late reply, I had to duck out for a moment.

I have read the skyscript tutorial yes. The web does seem to lack a lot of comprehensive traditional references but I have a few rare books found by a friend put into pdfs (Nicholas Culpepper's Opus Astrologicum, Directory for Midwives, Anthony Griffin's An Astrological Judgment Touching Theft, that one is an entertaining read and a few others). It is annoying to read them on a computer though, the splotchy ink and time bent pages really made the scanned result a bit awkward. Thank you for the references, knowing where to look always takes the stress out of self directed study.

Kai, JUPITERASC and dr. farr have helped me a lot on these forums too, especially JUPITERASC. Great little web community here, that's for sure

Yeah I didn't want to post it because this isn't the natal chart section but here it is;

If I'm not mistaken, Mercury is your Lord of Geniture, but Saturn is probably your Lord of Manners.

Vedic astrology (in its concepts and definitions) has very much in common with Traditionalist and Hellenist Western astrology; there are several excellent books aiming at a more balanced understanding of this Cosmic Principle ("planet") which are of value, regardless of the whether one leans toward Western or Vedic astrology, or Traditionalist or Modernist astrology: eg, "The Greatness of Saturn", "Secrets of Saturn", "Saturn: Friend and Guide", "Saturn-the Kingmaker", etc (these titles can be easily obtained from such internet vendors as astroamerica.com)

Zonark said:

Are there any? Reading traditional material, it seems Saturn is nothing but a negative and restricting planet.

Click to expand...

So....you would want to be hedonistic?

Sometimes restriction can be a good thing.

Zonark said:

... frankly I am unsettled because Saturn is the dominant planet in my chart.

Click to expand...

I'm not exactly seeing that, but I could be wrong because I'm doing this (calculating) in my head.

Zonark said:

Does Saturn bring anything good?

Click to expand...

Why don't you ask actor Sean Connery?

Like you, he has Retrograde Saturn rising in the Ascendant in Capricorn....and that's what makes Sean Connery the kind of sophisticated suave debonaire type.

You might learn something by comparing his chart to yours, or perhaps yours to his.

The three things you have in common is Retrograde Saturn in a Capricorn Ascendant, Jupiter looking at Saturn from the opposition (Cancer) and Mercury looking at Saturn from the trine (Virgo).

The differences are what is important.

<Moon Mercury Venus Sun Mars Jupiter Saturn>

That's the hierarchy of Planets. Intuitively, looking at the three Superiors, Mars is too close to Sun and so has an Hot nature, while is too far away and has a Cold nature, but Jupiter is juuuusssst right.

In a Day Chart --- with Sun Above Earth -- you always want Jupiter & Saturn with Sun, and you want Mars Below Earth away from Sun. In a Night -- Sun Below Earth -- you want Jupiter & Saturn with Sun, and Mars way up in the night sky Above Earth.

When Saturn is Diurnal, he is less Malefic; Nocturnal Mars is less Malefic; but Nocturnal Jupiter is less Benefic.

Whenever you look at a Planet or Sign/House, you want to know who's watching. A Malefic watching a Planet or Sign/House is not good. In Connery's chart, Nocturnal Mars is in Gemini and in aversion to Saturn (and also the Ascendant) but in your chart, Nocturnal Mars is watching Saturn from Taurus. Even though Mars is Nocturnal, he is not less Malefic because he is in Taurus, and because of the Moon.

You both have a Cancer Jupiter watching Retrograde Saturn from the opposition, and a Virgo Mercury watching Rx Saturn from the trine, but here's where more major differences crop up.

Connery has a Libra Venus smiling at Saturn from the square, and an Accidental Benefic Virgo Sun not only staring at Saturn from the trine, but in an applying trine aspect, which helps Saturn.

You also have an Accidental Benefic Sun, but it -- along with Venus -- are in Leo and in aversion to Rx Saturn (and your Ascendant).

The real problem in your chart is Cancer Moon who is in aspect with Rx Saturn -- but separating -- and then applying to Taurus Mars.

You never want a Planet going from a Malefic (or Mercury or Sun as Accidental Malefics) to another Malefic. That's bad. It's like constant sorrow.

You want a Planet going from a Malefic to a Benefic, or from a Benefic to a Benefic.

Since Moon is the faster Planet, and since there's no Reception, and since Saturn is Retrograde, the meaning of that is being compelled/forced/driven into constant conflicts of one nature or another, and on top of that, Moon is impeded.

Cancer Moon receives Taurus Mars, but the only thing Mars hates worse than Moon, Libra and Taurus is Cancer, and then Moon is impeded by Rx Saturn.

Also, there is no Grand Trine here.

Both Mercury and Mars have separated from Rx Saturn, so those trines are no longer operative. Likewise, Sun has separated from Mars, so there is no square. However, Mercury is still in an applying trine with Mars.

One last thing, is that Mars is within the 8° moiety orb of a sextile to Jupiter.

Unless Jupiter is going stationary and Mars is moving freaking fast, that sextile is never going to happen.....and that's sad, because, whatever Mars/Jupiter represents in your chart, is what you will constantly chase after but never find.

Anyway, Saturn is a Malefic, but in your chart, not especially Malefic. Saturn really wants to help you, but he doesn't have any help. Sun in a sextile or trine (by Sign) to Saturn would really help, and so would Venus in a sextile, square or trine (by Sign), but those two are in aversion to Saturn (and your Ascendant), and it would be better if Mars were in aversion to Saturn, but it isn't so.

Yes, Rx Saturn impedes Moon, but Saturn is not really the bad guy here.

My primary concern would be the Moon/Rx Saturn opposition, the Moon/Mars sextile, and then the Mars/Jupiter sextile that never perfects.

BobZemco said:

So....you would want to be hedonistic?

Sometimes restriction can be a good thing.

Click to expand...

Good point, I've always been pretty temperate.

BobZemco said:

I'm not exactly seeing that, but I could be wrong because I'm doing this (calculating) in my head.

Click to expand...

I got that from Walter Pullen's calculations to determine the chart ruler. I am pretty sure it isn't a traditional method but I figured when I said it there might be some parallels.

BobZemco said:

Why don't you ask actor Sean Connery?

Like you, he has Retrograde Saturn rising in the Ascendant in Capricorn....and that's what makes Sean Connery the kind of sophisticated suave debonaire type.

You might learn something by comparing his chart to yours, or perhaps yours to his.

The three things you have in common is Retrograde Saturn in a Capricorn Ascendant, Jupiter looking at Saturn from the opposition (Cancer) and Mercury looking at Saturn from the trine (Virgo).

The differences are what is important.

<Moon Mercury Venus Sun Mars Jupiter Saturn>

That's the hierarchy of Planets. Intuitively, looking at the three Superiors, Mars is too close to Sun and so has an Hot nature, while is too far away and has a Cold nature, but Jupiter is juuuusssst right.

In a Day Chart --- with Sun Above Earth -- you always want Jupiter & Saturn with Sun, and you want Mars Below Earth away from Sun. In a Night -- Sun Below Earth -- you want Jupiter & Saturn with Sun, and Mars way up in the night sky Above Earth.

Click to expand...

Ah so I do have a day chart. I thought my PM birth made it a night chart, huge mistake. Question; would that mean the calculation of my Part of Fortune must use the Day formula? Depending on whether I use the day or night formula it ends up at 10 degrees Sagittarius or 18 degrees Aquarius respectively. The astrodienst calculator places it in Sagittarius but I thought it might be incorrect based on something I read about AM/PM birth times.

BobZemco said:

When Saturn is Diurnal, he is less Malefic; Nocturnal Mars is less Malefic; but Nocturnal Jupiter is less Benefic.

Whenever you look at a Planet or Sign/House, you want to know who's watching. A Malefic watching a Planet or Sign/House is not good. In Connery's chart, Nocturnal Mars is in Gemini and in aversion to Saturn (and also the Ascendant) but in your chart, Nocturnal Mars is watching Saturn from Taurus. Even though Mars is Nocturnal, he is not less Malefic because he is in Taurus, and because of the Moon.

Click to expand...

I see. So Mars will disrupt Saturn's influence. I had no idea, superficially they look like they're in harmony.

BobZemco said:

You both have a Cancer Jupiter watching Retrograde Saturn from the opposition, and a Virgo Mercury watching Rx Saturn from the trine, but here's where more major differences crop up.

Connery has a Libra Venus smiling at Saturn from the square, and an Accidental Benefic Virgo Sun not only staring at Saturn from the trine, but in an applying trine aspect, which helps Saturn.

You also have an Accidental Benefic Sun, but it -- along with Venus -- are in Leo and in aversion to Rx Saturn (and your Ascendant).

Click to expand...

So again I have planets that are just not in tune with Saturn, though not necessarily working against it it like the Moon and Mars, or would they be actively opposed the way the Moon and Mars are?

BobZemco said:

The real problem in your chart is Cancer Moon who is in aspect with Rx Saturn -- but separating -- and then applying to Taurus Mars.

You never want a Planet going from a Malefic (or Mercury or Sun as Accidental Malefics) to another Malefic. That's bad. It's like constant sorrow.

You want a Planet going from a Malefic to a Benefic, or from a Benefic to a Benefic.

Since Moon is the faster Planet, and since there's no Reception, and since Saturn is Retrograde, the meaning of that is being compelled/forced/driven into constant conflicts of one nature or another, and on top of that, Moon is impeded.

Cancer Moon receives Taurus Mars, but the only thing Mars hates worse than Moon, Libra and Taurus is Cancer, and then Moon is impeded by Rx Saturn.

Click to expand...

I can certainly see where this conflict manifests in my life, purely as a constant underlying emotional current where my Martian side grates against my emotional nature. I had a lot of conflict with my mother in my adolescence, that sounds like a manifestation of this aspect, at least one way it could've gone. She was always very supportive but far too overprotective. I was always very angry with her and had difficulty showing appreciation. It felt like my willfulness was in conflict with her emotional state and the dynamic always ended on a negative note for both of us. My father was absent for the second half of my adolescence; my mother divorced him on allegations of sexually abusing my siblings and I, the divorce took a very long time and the dynamic that played out at home was always harsh. I had a hard time controlling my temper and would end up going from very calm to smashing up the house or getting into really explosive arguments, usually in response to my mother having an emotional breakdown which happened frequently. She put me on psychiatric medication when I was 12 and once had me arrested to be sent to the psychiatric ward, which is kind of comical in a dark way considering the Moon's lunar loony side. Very very irrational behavior looking back at it all.

I'd be very interested in any opinion you have on how that Moon/Mars dynamic could be expressed in a more positive way. I don't want to carry anything like that dynamic into my adult life.

BobZemco said:

Also, there is no Grand Trine here.

Both Mercury and Mars have separated from Rx Saturn, so those trines are no longer operative. Likewise, Sun has separated from Mars, so there is no square. However, Mercury is still in an applying trine with Mars.

One last thing, is that Mars is within the 8° moiety orb of a sextile to Jupiter.

Unless Jupiter is going stationary and Mars is moving freaking fast, that sextile is never going to happen.....and that's sad, because, whatever Mars/Jupiter represents in your chart, is what you will constantly chase after but never find.

Anyway, Saturn is a Malefic, but in your chart, not especially Malefic. Saturn really wants to help you, but he doesn't have any help. Sun in a sextile or trine (by Sign) to Saturn would really help, and so would Venus in a sextile, square or trine (by Sign), but those two are in aversion to Saturn (and your Ascendant), and it would be better if Mars were in aversion to Saturn, but it isn't so.

Yes, Rx Saturn impedes Moon, but Saturn is not really the bad guy here.

My primary concern would be the Moon/Rx Saturn opposition, the Moon/Mars sextile, and then the Mars/Jupiter sextile that never perfects.

Click to expand...

That is interesting about the grand trine not applying, I've never had anyone say that or determined with my own research but it makes sense with Saturn's contrary movement. It's good that square doesn't apply either as it would probably be a pretty harsh aspect.

I never got the sense that Saturn was a bad guy in my chart which is why all the things about it being so malefic confused me. I felt my chart was posited in a way to make me upset with my Lunar nature (which constantly seems to get the best of me).

The imperfect Mars/Jupiter sextile I've seen manifest in my relationships with significant others. Mars always chasing an ideal expansive and philosophically grounded love which never quite happens. Funnily enough it's something about Mars that always seems to turn them off. Either I'm too angry, too slow, too stubborn, too twisted, too damaged, it always seems to be something about my Mars. I get plenty of the lunar attention from significant others but Mars hates it and doesn't appreciate it at all.

Very helpful instruction BobZ, thank you!

Saturn's influence is essential in all that requires patience and directed effort. Creativity without Saturn turns into folly.

Nothing that you accomplish in life can be done without the patient focused effort of Saturn.

In my experience, people without much Saturn, or with a debilitated Saturn(I am not a traditional astrologer) in their charts, are people who struggle continuously to take their dreams and bring them into a measure of functional reality.

Saturn, rather than bringing you down, makes things happen by giving you the power to personal ACTION.

Zonark said:

Are there any? Reading traditional material, it seems Saturn is nothing but a negative and restricting planet. Even its most positive aspects to other planets, like involvement in a grand trine, have an association with a decidedly negative energy. I know modern gives plenty of positive attributes to Saturn's influence but the more I look into Traditional the more accurate it seems to be and frankly I am unsettled because Saturn is the dominant planet in my chart. Does Saturn bring anything good?

Click to expand...

'....Manners when SATURN well dignified: Profound in imagination, severe in his acts, in words reserved, in speaking and giving very spare, in labour patient, in arguing or disputing grave, in obtaining the goods of this life studious and solicitous, in all manner of actions austere....'


COMPARE WITH

Manners when SATURN badly placed:

Then he is envious, covetous, jealous and mistrustful, timorous, sordid, outwardly dissembling, sluggish, suspicious, stubborn, a condemner of women, a close liar, malicious, murmuring, never contented, ever repining.


QUOTED FROM THE TRADITIONAL SIGNIFICATIONS OF SATURN http://www.skyscript.co.uk/saturn_att.html

Zarathu said:

Saturn's influence is essential in all that requires patience and directed effort. Creativity without Saturn turns into folly.

Nothing that you accomplish in life can be done without the patient focused effort of Saturn.

In my experience, people without much Saturn, or with a debilitated Saturn(I am not a traditional astrologer) in their charts, are people who struggle continuously to take their dreams and bring them into a measure of functional reality.

Click to expand...

I definitely see that now. Saturn's function seems to let the native know when to just stop so that everything has its timing and placement. A dysfunctional Saturn results in dysfunctional timing.

Zarathu said:

Saturn, rather than bringing you down, makes things happen by giving you the power to personal ACTION.

Click to expand...

This bit sounds more like Mars though!

JUPITERASC said:

'....Manners when SATURN well dignified: Profound in imagination, severe in his acts, in words reserved, in speaking and giving very spare, in labour patient, in arguing or disputing grave, in obtaining the goods of this life studious and solicitous, in all manner of actions austere....'


COMPARE WITH

Manners when SATURN badly placed:

Then he is envious, covetous, jealous and mistrustful, timorous, sordid, outwardly dissembling, sluggish, suspicious, stubborn, a condemner of women, a close liar, malicious, murmuring, never contented, ever repining.


QUOTED FROM THE TRADITIONAL SIGNIFICATIONS OF SATURN http://www.skyscript.co.uk/saturn_att.html

Click to expand...

I suppose since I have a dignified Saturn in the house of its Fall (the 1st) this will manifest as a mixture of the two. A dignified Saturn working in a somewhat slovenly locale.

Zonark said:

....I suppose since I have a dignified Saturn in the house of its Fall (the 1st) this will manifest as a mixture of the two. A dignified Saturn working in a somewhat slovenly locale.

Click to expand...

Not exactly

The First is far from 'a slovenly locale' in fact the First is the STRONGEST in terms of STRENGTH OF THE HOUSES

The houses are not all equal in strength and power.
If a planet is located in an angular house, it is much more forceful in its effects than it would be in a cadent house http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1d.html

On page 48 of Christian Astrology Lilly writes:

'....The angles are most powerful, the succeedents are next in virtue, the cadents poor, and of little efficacy: the succeedent houses follow the angles, the cadents come next [after] the succeedents. In force and virtue they stand so in order:

The meaning whereof is this, that two planets equally dignified, the one in the Ascendant, the other in the tenth house, you shall judge the planet in the Ascendant somewhat of more power to effect what he is significator of, than he that is in the tenth: do so in the rest as they stand in order, remembering that planets in angles do more forcibly show their effects.....'

'....The astrological angles - ascendant, midheaven (MC), descendant and lower midheaven (IC) - are the most potent and influential areas in any chart. Any planet that is in conjunction with an angle will have a marked influence that resonates throughout the chart and greatly colours its overall meaning.....'