These terms related to retrograde planets

My chart ruler being retrograde and Saturn, I did just a bit of digging on this and found these two statements on Skyscript.

• The Lord of the 7th retrograde or Saturn retrograde in ascendant is a warning against judgement - p.122
• Asc-ruler retrograde or otherwise afflicted can suggest shortness of life - p.130

Do these statements conflict if my chart ruler is Saturn? Would the 'warning against judgment" mean the second cannot be judged to be true? What sort of judgments are warned against? Judgments of the native by the chart?

Oh and Saturn is conjunct the Ascendant, in Capricorn, so whether "Saturn retrograde in ascendant" means near the ascendant or the ruler of it is irrelevant, both apply.

Zonark said:

My chart ruler being retrograde and Saturn, I did just a bit of digging on this and found these two statements on Skyscript.

• The Lord of the 7th retrograde or Saturn retrograde in ascendant is a warning against judgement - p.122
• Asc-ruler retrograde or otherwise afflicted can suggest shortness of life - p.130

Do these statements conflict if my chart ruler is Saturn?
Would the 'warning against judgment" mean the second cannot be judged to be true?
What sort of judgments are warned against?
Judgments of the native by the chart?

Oh and Saturn is conjunct the Ascendant, in Capricorn,
so whether "Saturn retrograde in ascendant" means near the ascendant or the ruler of it is irrelevant, both apply.

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A "warning against judgement" is related to/applicable to horary astrology charts, not natal

Zonark said:

My chart ruler being retrograde and Saturn, I did just a bit of digging on this and found these two statements on Skyscript.

• The Lord of the 7th retrograde or Saturn retrograde in ascendant is a warning against judgement - p.122
• Asc-ruler retrograde or otherwise afflicted can suggest shortness of life - p.130

Do these statements conflict if my chart ruler is Saturn? Would the 'warning against judgment" mean the second cannot be judged to be true? What sort of judgments are warned against? Judgments of the native by the chart?

Oh and Saturn is conjunct the Ascendant, in Capricorn, so whether "Saturn retrograde in ascendant" means near the ascendant or the ruler of it is irrelevant, both apply.

Click to expand...

As JUPITERASC has said, the first statement is applicable to horary charts only. The Lord of the 7th signifies the astrologer, and if retrograde it could indicate that the astrologer's judgment is faulty. Saturn retrograde in the ASC in an horary chart, when it is not a significator for the question often destroys the matter being asked about.

The second statement has to do with length of life calculations and must be taken into consideration with other factors in the chart. The ASC/1st house represents the body and life of the native, so if it's ruler is impeded we need to look at what that could mean in context of everything in the chart. Notice that it says "suggests," which is not a definitive declaration.

Zonark said:

• Asc-ruler retrograde or otherwise afflicted can suggest shortness of life - p.130

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Yes, that's true. It's dependent upon other testimonies. Do the Benefics aspect Saturn? It can be a Sign Aspect. Does Sun sextile or trine Saturn?

The Native of this Chart had a short life-span.

You can see Ascendant Ruler Saturn is Retrograde and so impeded.

That's not the only reason. Impeded Retrograde Saturn squares the Ascendant. Jupiter makes no aspect to Saturn. Venus is totally out-of-Sect and corrupted in an opposition to Saturn, plus also squares the Ascendant.

4th House Ruler Mars in the Ascendant is impeded by the square from Venus.

The Lights are disjunct. Scorpio Sun the Sect Light is in aversion to Saturn.

Impeded Moon sextiles Jupiter from Gemini, hindering Jupiter that much more.

All those things taken as a whole portend a short life-span.

For Directions, I'd take Ascendant to the body of Mars or the Lot of Fortune to the Descendant for the timing of death.

Most people would take Sun as Hyleg in the Chart, which happens to rule the 8th House. No Planet is in close aspect to Sun, and the two Planets that make aspects by Sign are a sextile from an impeded Mars and sextile from a very weak Jupiter.

Anyway, you have to look at the whole Chart, not just one or two Planets.

I agree with what the others have said regarding the first statement - it is describing the inability of an astrologer hired by someone else to interpret a horary chart with 7th house ruler retrograde (also saturn in the 7th), or if saturn is in the 1st the querent could be thwarted or overly cautious, if saturn is retrograde that means it will go back to conjunct the ascendant and is causing problems and road blocks for the querent.

Regarding the 2nd statement I'm not sure if it can apply to a natal chart. Again the reference that you found is talking about how Lilly interpreted planets in horary charts.

Firstly you might have to consider what is a "short lifespan" - some babies only survive hours or days. In those cases where I have seen the chart it has usually involved pluto - either a very close aspect becoming exact either by transit, solar arc, progression or primary direction.

Another thing we might look at to indicate death would be the ruler of the 8th making an aspect (progression, solar arc or primary direction) to the ruler of the 1st or the ascendant (both of these represent the body). The 4th house (the end of things) may also be involved, I'm not sure.

In my opinion the ruler of the ascendant being retrograde would indicate a person who is more of an introvert than an extrovert, and somewhat self-sufficient.

I'm guessing this because I have the ruler of the 7th retrograde and those are the kind of things that are described for a retrograde partner, e.g. "Ruler of the 7th house is retrograde: When the ruler of the 7th house retrograde, you May get partner/spouse who is not open in their feelings. They have difficulty in discussing and sharing their problems. Somehow these people have their past bad life experience which is stopping them to discuss with spouse/partner or with the others. They simply do not reveal their own true nature. Sometimes a retrograde ruler of the 7th house shows returns after some interruption, tries to correct errors and or tries to retreat, reconcile or reunite. Sometimes the partner can feel rejected by you. Also the retrograde ruler of the 7th house May also shows the partner could have ill health."

and "When the ruler of the 7th house is retrograde at birth, "the other", the partner and everyone you meet or encounter never tells it all...

There is some secrecy involved.

Also, the (significant) "other" or the partner may have (or even be) a problem, a burden, some frustration that is not easily talked about.

The other does not reveal him or her nature entirely and he or she may keep things to him- or herself.

A retrograde ruler of the 7th house denotes someone who rather RE-treats, is shy, modest, self-conscious and sometimes even feels inferior.

Expect a solitary person to be your partner, someone who at times strikes against life.

Sometimes you will have to face rejection ("the other" is turning his or her back to you), and might have to live with denial and/or maladjustment regarding the people you meet or encounter.

The ruler (also called "Lord") of the 7th house retrograde may denote someone who returns after some interruption, tries to correct errors and/or tries to RE-concile or RE-unite.

Sometimes "the other", the partner too can be rejected, sent away.

He or she may not be willing to take part in some activities (often because he or she feels deeply hurt).

Also consider that a retrograde ruler of the 7th house may denote a person in ill health, but holding on!"

So it could indicate those things - not opening up or going back and doing things again.

There is a thread on here - somewhere - about retrograde planets and how they actually work better than direct ones - more focussed. & I have a friend who is a very successful writer who is a gemini with virgo rising and mercury retrograde. She studied at Oxford university so her intelligence is in no way faulty, it is more like her particular talent, but she does almost always doubt herself.

Also, interestingly, and perhaps aptly, saturn in the first and capricorn ascendant can indicate someone who is pessimistic . My dad has exactly these things in his chart. By progression saturn is now retrograde although it was direct in his natal chart, and he has been ill but hanging on for about a decade, also he is most definitely a hermit.

I hope that puts your mind at ease a bit.

Okay. So it's a comment on horary, not natal interpretation. Got it. So the comment on lifespan thoroughly applies to that signification (not accounting for "the rest of them", thank you BZ).

On other factors, by your relating them BZ;

Do the BenDoes Sun sextile or trine Saturn?efics aspect Saturn?

No.

It can be a Sign Aspect.

No dice.

Does Sun sextile or trine Saturn?

A weak, likely inapplicable quincunx at 24 degrees Leo.

That's not the only reason. Impeded Retrograde Saturn squares the Ascendant

And mine conjuncts, a technically harsh aspect right?

Jupiter makes no aspect to Saturn

By sign mine is in opposition, but Jupiter is at 29.55 degrees Cancer so well out of orb and on the bleeding cusp of it.

Venus is totally out-of-Sect

As is mine, luckily it is unaspected, for better or worse and not combust even though also in Leo it stands at 4 degrees, well out of the way.

4th House Ruler

By sign, which is the traditional way right? By sign that would be Mars as well, which is at 22* Taurus, the Imum Coeli also in that sign at 9* (so by whatever standard the 4th house ruler will be Mars)

The Lights are disjunct.

The lights in my chart are both domicile if that helps. Leo Sun 24* and Cancer Moon 21*, I don't know the term for that aspect though. A tetran?

Scorpio Sun the Sect Light is in aversion to Saturn.

Well mine would be disjunct Saturn then. Both lights are in the same sect.

Impeded Moon

I am not sure how her moon is impeded (for lack of knowledge, not an argument) but mine is tightly opposed by Saturn, from Capricorn to Cancer, about 1 degree of difference. Jupiter shares sign and decan with the Moon.

All those things taken as a whole portend a short life-span.

Hm.

For Directions, I'd take Ascendant to the body of Mars or the Lot of Fortune to the Descendant for the timing of death.

Ascendant trines Mars by sign, 8 degrees of separation

Lot of Fortune rests in the 12th, conjunct Antares (10.18* Sagittarius)
Descendant rests at 14.06* Cancer, so disjunct.

Most people would take Sun as Hyleg in the Chart, which happens to rule the 8th House

And mine happens to be in the 8th house, unless you were referring to my chart. When I calculated the Hyleg in my chart I used Saturn. Sun in my chart is squared, with an orb of 2 degrees, by Mars, who is in Taurus, poorly placed.

Sorry if I come across as having a one-track mind, this has just been bothering me.
Will reply to everyone else soon. Very tired.

I can think of very few who would take an eighth house sun as hyleg. In your chart it's probably the moon.

Which would give you 108 base years from its sign and house placement. Which would get knocked down/up a bit (both, considering your aspects). So you likely won't live to be 108. But you haven't died young, either, and at a cursory glance, it really doesn't look like you're going to.

As to Saturn destroying the question, or impairing judgement: That is horary, as people have mentioned. Horary depends a lot on radicality. Natal charts don't, because you yourself are proof of the event - you were born, you are here. From that, we know the chart is radical.

Oddity said:

I can think of very few who would take an eighth house sun as hyleg. In your chart it's probably the moon.

Which would give you 108 base years from its sign and house placement. Which would get knocked down/up a bit (both, considering your aspects). So you likely won't live to be 108. But you haven't died young, either, and at a cursory glance, it really doesn't look like you're going to.

As to Saturn destroying the question, or impairing judgement: That is horary, as people have mentioned. Horary depends a lot on radicality. Natal charts don't, because you yourself are proof of the event - you were born, you are here. From that, we know the chart is radical.

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My great grandmother lived to be 105, great grandfather hit 101, smoked, drank and ate to excess all the while too. Not sure I wanna kick around for that long but I guess if the 8th negates any possibility of a body within being the hyleg I like what I'm hearing

I know that has nothing to do with astrology though. Thanks for the responses everyone, apologies for the late reply. Wish there was a no bump option.

Carlos23 said:

"The Lord of the 7th retrograde or Saturn retrograde in ascendant is a warning against judgement" - I don't think so!

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The matter has already been discussed earlier on this thread:

tsmall said:

As JUPITERASC has said, the first statement is applicable to horary charts only.

The Lord of the 7th signifies the astrologer,
and if retrograde it could indicate that the astrologer's judgment is faulty.
Saturn retrograde in the ASC in an horary chart,
when it is not a significator for the question
often destroys the matter being asked about.

The second statement has to do with length of life calculations a
nd must be taken into consideration with other factors in the chart.
The ASC/1st house represents the body and life of the native, so if it's ruler is impeded
we need to look at what that could mean in context of everything in the chart.
Notice that it says "suggests," which is not a definitive declaration.

Click to expand...

so do read previous responses to the OP before commenting

Carlos23 said:

Generally, traditional astrology is fine, when you know what you're doing;
but when you don't - Forget it! [Big-time!-hera]
All I am saying is the Following:
You cannot do Traditional Astrology, if you don't have a strong imagination! Imagination costs rules! [Unless you want to be wrong...]
Traditional Astrology follows creeps not...Just saying.
Traditional Astrology is vocal... No secrets!
Traditional Astrology is not spendid. Does not reveal a lot. [Modern is its friend!]
Traditional Astrology alone does not give enough insights. Why? Because Saturnists are hole-warriors [they like to omit! omit! omit!]
Traditional Astrology is for Smart people, only. [Not mind-destroyers!]
Traditional Astrology cannot do holes! [None!]
Traditional Astrology is not for smart-less people! [Why? Because smart-less implies lack of thought! Lack of thought leads to errors. Errors means lack of thoughts. And so on...)
Traditional Astrology cannot do juxtapositions. It cannot read Minds! [unlike heroes...Me]
Traditional Astrology is too Dumb...Just saying. Truth
Also:
Traditional Astrology cannot reveal Secrets! [big Secrets! It's too general.]

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examples would be useful

Carlos23 said:

Also: It's too simple!
Modern planets are not necessary to do Modern astrology; but modern thought is!
[Intuition...Thoughtlessness-Not...Playfulness...Making people feel comfortable...Reading Minds...
All of this is much more welfare-y than Traditional dogmatic value-less applications, so to say...Jesus1.)
Also: I am! Ok. But slightly mad. Lol.
LOL.
Caplication!
GERT
Red
*
Just saying!

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useful if you would elucidate

Carlos23 said:

But the problem is: JUPITERASC: You demand wordfulness; but you give Me a three-liner-Response?
I don't think so! I don't work with that! [attitude...]
Also: I am!
JESUS

Wordfulness is thought! But lack-of-thought is not! Wordfulness is never playfulness!
Get it right! I am telling you my grand Opinion! I don't rely on Your intuition [wrong...] to be grand! Get it! I Am FREE!
*
C
I think Traditional Astrology is not good! [Get it?]
---
C

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reasons for your opinions would be useful

Knew I shouldn't have bumped it.

Zonark said:

Knew I shouldn't have bumped it.

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That made me laugh