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  #26  
Unread 08-02-2011, 10:39 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Mine is conj. my M.C. right on [M.C. 24* Leo 21 and PoF 24* Leo 55" ]...it is very Auspicious...in fact THE MOST as i was previously informed and led to believe...thus why the aspect listed as a '6' and called "Cor Leonis" vastly intrigues me...any body with more info?

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  #27  
Unread 08-02-2011, 10:54 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperBomber328 View Post
Can an expert correct me on this, but Iv'e found a chart that shows the Dignities and Debilities of Fortuna if they are in a cartain sign, house, degree or aspected to another body:

Conj., Cor Leonis................................... 6
Asc. or Midheaven................................... 5
Partile conj., Jupiter or Venus..................... 5
Conj., Spica........................................ 5
Not Combust......................................... 5
In Taurus or Pisces................................. 5
Besieged by Jupiter and Venus....................... 6
In Cancer, Leo, Libra, or Sagittarius............... 4
4th, 7th, or 11th House............................. 4
Partile trine, Venus or Jupiter..................... 4
Partile conj., North Node........................... 4
In Gemini........................................... 3
2nd or 5th House.................................... 3
Partile sextile, Jupiter or Venus................... 3
In Virgo............................................ 2
9th House........................................... 2
3rd House........................................... 1
In Term of Venus or Jupiter......................... 1

The Table atop goes on to show the Dignities of Fortuna, and the amount of points alloted to Fortuna if placed by these. Which by the way I have a question, what does beseige a planet mean?

Conj., Caput Algol.................................. 6
Besieged by Mars and Saturn......................... 6
12th House.......................................... 5
In Scorpio, Capricorn, or Aquarius.................. 5
Combust........................................... .. 5
Partile conj., Mars or Saturn....................... 5
6th or 8th House.................................... 4
Opposition, Mars or Jupiter......................... 4
Partile conj., South Node........................... 4
In Aries............................................ 3
Partile square, Mars or Saturn...................... 3
Term of Mars or Saturn.............................. 1

The Table above shows the Debilities of Fortuna, and the amount of points lost from Fortuna for having these specific placements.
I'm no expert - William Lilly has a similar table in Christian Astrology
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  #28  
Unread 08-02-2011, 10:59 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
Mine is conj. my M.C. right on [M.C. 24* Leo 21 and PoF 24* Leo 55" ]...it is very Auspicious...in fact THE MOST as i was previously informed and led to believe...thus why the aspect listed as a '6' and called "Cor Leonis" vastly intrigues me...any body with more info?
Cor Leonis is the Latin name for the fixed star Regulus which entered the sign Leo in 156 BC. and has just entered Virgo in 2012 (having spent a couple of thousand years in Leo) http://www.constellationsofwords.com...s_alphabet.htm

In this table SUBRA, in the year 2000, is at 24 Leo 15 http://www.constellationsofwords.com...tude_order.htm
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  #29  
Unread 08-03-2011, 12:11 AM
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Re: Part of Fortune

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Cor Leonis is the Latin name for the fixed star Regulus which entered the sign Leo in 156 BC. and has just entered Virgo in 2012 (having spent a couple of thousand years in Leo) http://www.constellationsofwords.com...s_alphabet.htm

In this table SUBRA, in the year 2000, is at 24 Leo 15 http://www.constellationsofwords.com...tude_order.htm
...WOW...so that means I have my PoF at both the M.C. and "Cor Leonis"...Cool...! [..by transit definitely ...but by birth...?...I was born May 6, 1953...hmmm...now that I think about it...at that rate of transit I was born with it...!

...after thought...although you are saying it traversed from 24* Leo 15' to 0* Virgo in only 12 years...which doesn't add up...?
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  #30  
Unread 08-03-2011, 12:19 AM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Has work panned out for you PierceTV as you might expect from your chart? If you haven't read Valen's work on that yet, you must - it's a fascinating read.
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  #31  
Unread 08-03-2011, 12:30 AM
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Re: Part of Fortune

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Has work panned out for you PierceTV as you might expect from your chart? If you haven't read Valen's work on that yet, you must - it's a fascinating read.
here's the link http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #32  
Unread 08-03-2011, 12:42 AM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Yes, thank you again Jupiter for introducing me to the work. Do you know how many hours I sat reading yesterday?

Plenty of Part of Fortune in Book II for anyone interested.
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  #33  
Unread 08-03-2011, 12:52 AM
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Re: Part of Fortune

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Yes, thank you again Jupiter for introducing me to the work. Do you know how many hours I sat reading yesterday?
Plenty of Part of Fortune in Book II for anyone interested.
Well, plenty I would say byjove! Takes a while to digest as well... there's the re-reading... it's one of those books you dip into daily! But it is well worth it. We are so lucky this free online translation was released. Thanks for writing it all out as well Vettius Valens btw - wherever you now are!
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  #34  
Unread 08-03-2011, 01:29 AM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperBomber328 View Post
Can an expert correct me on this, but Iv'e found a chart that shows the Dignities and Debilities of Fortuna if they are in a cartain sign, house, degree or aspected to another body:

Conj., Cor Leonis................................... 6
Asc. or Midheaven................................... 5
Partile conj., Jupiter or Venus..................... 5
Conj., Spica........................................ 5
Not Combust......................................... 5
In Taurus or Pisces................................. 5
Besieged by Jupiter and Venus....................... 6
In Cancer, Leo, Libra, or Sagittarius............... 4
4th, 7th, or 11th House............................. 4
Partile trine, Venus or Jupiter..................... 4
Partile conj., North Node........................... 4
In Gemini........................................... 3
2nd or 5th House.................................... 3
Partile sextile, Jupiter or Venus................... 3
In Virgo............................................ 2
9th House........................................... 2
3rd House........................................... 1
In Term of Venus or Jupiter......................... 1

The Table atop goes on to show the Dignities of Fortuna, and the amount of points alloted to Fortuna if placed by these. Which by the way I have a question, what does beseige a planet mean?

Conj., Caput Algol.................................. 6
Besieged by Mars and Saturn......................... 6
12th House.......................................... 5
In Scorpio, Capricorn, or Aquarius.................. 5
Combust........................................... .. 5
Partile conj., Mars or Saturn....................... 5
6th or 8th House.................................... 4
Opposition, Mars or Jupiter......................... 4
Partile conj., South Node........................... 4
In Aries............................................ 3
Partile square, Mars or Saturn...................... 3
Term of Mars or Saturn.............................. 1

The Table above shows the Debilities of Fortuna, and the amount of points lost from Fortuna for having these specific placements.
I'm no expert ...but the second list certainly sounds like a list of debilities to me.
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  #35  
Unread 08-03-2011, 01:36 AM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Besiege...

" be新iege (b-sj)
tr.v. be新ieged, be新ieg搏ng, be新ieg搪s
1. To surround with hostile forces.
2. To crowd around; hem in.
3. To harass or importune, as with requests: Reporters besieged the winner for interviews.
4. To cause to feel distressed or worried: She was besieged by problems. "
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Unread 08-03-2011, 01:41 AM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Has work panned out for you PierceTV as you might expect from your chart? If you haven't read Valen's work on that yet, you must - it's a fascinating read.
I retired from construction work in May 2000...from there it's been Mr. Toads Wild Ride....straight up!...been to jail 3 times...met a clairvoyant that old me I'd write about a fantastic find...wrote a book...been meeting all sorts of very illumined and advanced souls ever since...it's certainly been something all right.


Please tell me more about 'Valen'....!
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  #37  
Unread 08-03-2011, 01:48 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
Besiege...

" be新iege (b-sj)
tr.v. be新ieged, be新ieg搏ng, be新ieg搪s
1. To surround with hostile forces.
2. To crowd around; hem in.
3. To harass or importune, as with requests: Reporters besieged the winner for interviews.
4. To cause to feel distressed or worried: She was besieged by problems. "
Besieged

Bonatus describes a besieged planet as one that separates from a malefic and applies to another (Con. 6). It shows a situation that is going from bad to worse.

William Lilly described a planet besieged as one that lies between the bodies of the two malefics Mars and Saturn. His example is Mars at 10 Aries, Venus 13 Aries, and Saturn 15 Aries. It is generally accepted that besiegement can occur by aspect as well as bodily conjunction. As a principle it refers to a planet trapped by hostile forces on either side.

The above is quoted from http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/beseiged.html
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  #38  
Unread 08-04-2011, 03:19 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Cor Leonis is the Latin name for the fixed star Regulus which entered the sign Leo in 156 BC. and has just entered Virgo in 2012 (having spent a couple of thousand years in Leo) http://www.constellationsofwords.com...s_alphabet.htm

In this table SUBRA, in the year 2000, is at 24 Leo 15 http://www.constellationsofwords.com...tude_order.htm
To clarify...according to the page on Regulus
Fixed star: REGULUS Cor Leonis
Constellation: Alpha (α) Leo
Longitude 1900: 28LEO26 Longitude 2000: 29LEO50
Declination 1900: +12.27' Declination 2000: +11.58'
Right ascension: 10h 08m Latitude: +00.27'
Spectral class: B7 Magnitude: 1.35

...meaning that it was at 28* Leo 26' in 1900 and it was still in Leo in 2000 [prob. about 29* Leo 59' at this time, August 2011.]... having traveled only 84 minutes of a degree in 100 years...less than a minute a year...apprx. 14 degrees of travel every one thousand years.
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  #39  
Unread 08-04-2011, 04:51 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Very many thanks for the link, JUPITERASC. "Let's get back to basics!" as they say in my local fundamentalist church.
Is there a Vettius Valens fan club I can join, or have I just stumbled upon it?

Tboy, you didn't know what you were starting ... or perhaps you did, but I bet you're no longer looking!
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Unread 08-04-2011, 05:44 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

to clarify then: piercethevale - you said
Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
Mine is conj. my M.C. right on [M.C. 24* Leo 21 and PoF 24* Leo 55" ]...it is very Auspicious...in fact THE MOST as i was previously informed and led to believe...thus why the aspect listed as a '6' and called "Cor Leonis" vastly intrigues me...any body with more info?
to which I responded with data as follows

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Cor Leonis is the Latin name for the fixed star Regulus which entered the sign Leo in 156 BC. and has just entered Virgo in 2012 (having spent a couple of thousand years in Leo) http://www.constellationsofwords.com...s_alphabet.htm

In this table SUBRA, in the year 2000, is at 24 Leo 15 http://www.constellationsofwords.com...tude_order.htm
to which you responded with
Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
To clarify...according to the page on Regulus
Fixed star: REGULUS Cor Leonis
Constellation: Alpha (α) Leo
Longitude 1900: 28LEO26 Longitude 2000: 29LEO50
Declination 1900: +12.27' Declination 2000: +11.58'
Right ascension: 10h 08m Latitude: +00.27'
Spectral class: B7 Magnitude: 1.35

...meaning that it was at 28* Leo 26' in 1900 and it was still in Leo in 2000 [prob. about 29* Leo 59' at this time, August 2011.]... having traveled only 84 minutes of a degree in 100 years...less than a minute a year...apprx. 14 degrees of travel every one thousand years.
to which my response is

SUBRA and REGULUS are two distinct and separate fixed stars. I introduced SUBRA into the equation because your MC appears conjunct SUBRA at 24 Leo

Fixed star: SUBRA Constellation: Omicron (ο) Leo Longitude 1900: 22LEO51 Longitude 2000: 24LEO15 Declination 1900: +10.21' Declination 2000: +09.54' Right ascension: 09h 41m Latitude: -03.45' Spectral class: FA Magnitude: 3.8 http://www.constellationsofwords.com...s_alphabet.htm

REGULUS as you have said is in the final degrees of Leo, shifting into Virgo in 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
...WOW...so that means I have my PoF at both the M.C. and "Cor Leonis"...Cool...! [..by transit definitely ...but by birth...?...I was born May 6, 1953...hmmm...now that I think about it...at that rate of transit I was born with it...! ...after thought...although you are saying it traversed from 24* Leo 15' to 0* Virgo in only 12 years...which doesn't add up...?

I infer therefore that it is your PoF that is conjunct Regulus, whereas your MC is conjunct SUBRA - having said that however, we need to consider the orbs at which fixed stars are considered conjunct particular points of a chart
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 08-04-2011 at 06:28 PM.
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  #41  
Unread 08-04-2011, 07:02 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
to clarify then: piercethevale - you said


to which I responded with data as follows



to which you responded with


to which my response is

SUBRA and REGULUS are two distinct and separate fixed stars. I introduced SUBRA into the equation because your MC appears conjunct SUBRA at 24 Leo

Fixed star: SUBRA Constellation: Omicron (ο) Leo Longitude 1900: 22LEO51 Longitude 2000: 24LEO15 Declination 1900: +10.21' Declination 2000: +09.54' Right ascension: 09h 41m Latitude: -03.45' Spectral class: FA Magnitude: 3.8 http://www.constellationsofwords.com...s_alphabet.htm

REGULUS as you have said is in the final degrees of Leo, shifting into Virgo in 2012




I infer therefore that it is your PoF that is conjunct Regulus, whereas your MC is conjunct SUBRA - having said that however, we need to consider the orbs at which fixed stars are considered conjunct particular points of a chart
Yeah, I figured out what you had posted...I never heard of a Star by the name of Subra before...had me confused...
I don't use fixed stars anyways...I don't believe they have any influence....to be truthful...never seen any proof of it.
Also the Part of Fortune does not have anything to do with material wealth...not directly anyways...it is how one best completes his dharma...[it 's about being 'Fortunate' not $$$ ] the Sabian Symbol found there is symbolically the attitude, action or position one wants to employ, assume, create...etc. to activate the Part of Fortune...for example the Po F for the birth chart of Jesus I propose is correct has the 19th of Pisces as the Part of Fortune [Rudhyar]
"(PISCES 19): A MASTER INSTRUCTING HIS DISCIPLE.

KEYNOTE: The transfer of power and knowledge which keeps the original spiritual and creative Impulse of the cycle active and undeviated.
"


..if that isn't the best example of how to literally take the symbolism for the Astrological parts I don't know what...

...Money...FORTUNE of the spending kind is readily attributable to the Part of Increase and Benefits....Asc + Jupiter - Sun


...this chap went way over board and has drawn up a list and set of conditions that is way too complex and needlessly too...In my opinion... and further I doubt it's even accurate.
The Part of Fortune is enhanced by being conj one of the cusps of the Chart Axis...or one of the other house cusps to a lesser affect....Conjunct a Planet or Luminary or Node is good as the power and influence of the celestial body will emphasize that symbolism all the more and make the Part practically automatically functioning and effective.
I've really only seen the magic of Parts get going when they are conjuncted by a transiting body...preferably one of the 'Bodies' in the formula or the Higher Octave of any body...this has been repeatedly observed and proven to me over the last 27 years.
...
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Unread 08-04-2011, 07:11 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
Yeah, I figured out what you had posted...I never heard of a Star by the name of Subra before...had me confused...
I don't use fixed stars anyways...I don't believe they have any influence....to be truthful...never seen any proof of it. ...this chap went way over board and has drawn up a list and set of conditions that is way too complex and needlessly too...In my opinion... and further I doubt it's even accurate....

To quote author and lecturer Diana K Rosenberg who has been acclaimed by some as the world's foremost authority on Fixed Stars.

QUOTE
"Fixed stars, constellations and lunar mansions are the most ancient astrological heritages of humankind. Long before there were horoscopes, aspects, houses or signs (or even systems of writing!) the dedicated priest-astrologers of Sumer, Akkad, Babylon, Greece, Phoenicia, Egypt, China, India, Central America, indeed, of virtually every ancient civilization of which we have record, carefully observed and analyzed sky-patterns, and attempted to relate their observations to the experiences of humankind, under the universally-held doctrine, "as above, so below."

btw how accurate is your birthtime?
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Unread 08-04-2011, 09:22 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

How about planets conjunct these lots, particularly the lot of Fortune? I haven't found any info. yet that's worth trusting...
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Unread 08-04-2011, 09:34 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
How about planets conjunct these lots, particularly the lot of Fortune? I haven't found any info. yet that's worth trusting...
Vettius Valens?
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Unread 08-04-2011, 09:39 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

What? Where?! He talked about planets on conjunct the PoF? I seen other aspects, but not conjunction....
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Unread 08-04-2011, 09:51 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
What? Where?! He talked about planets on conjunct the PoF? I seen other aspects, but not conjunction....
Vettius Valens? check out Eminence Indicators
and here's a link to an article by Rob Hand re: information got from translating Valens et al http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/astro/robhand1.htm
http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/astro/robhand2.htm
and http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/astro/robhand3.htm
http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/astro/robhand4.htm
http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/astro/robhand5.htm

quote from link
The Part of Fortune is used to describe the basic way in which the individual is physically connected with the surrounding world. It is one of the significators of the body and health, and it is the primary significator of prosperity, and also career as it relates to prosperity. But the method of using it will come as a bit of a surprise. This is one of the most important discoveries that Project Hindsight has made. In my next note I'll go into that.(R. Hand, 02/16/96)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 08-04-2011 at 10:07 PM.
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Unread 08-04-2011, 11:50 PM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Thanks as always! You've been a great help and inspiration recently!

Looking at the nice guide by Robert Hand, I keep coming back to Saturn in my chart - how malefic is he exactly? (He's conjunct my PoF).

Good:
Cadency - the murder contained in jail
Sun trine, exact, and the Sun is a fellow sect-ruler and very well placed
In the sign of a benefic, and it's ruler is well placed too, and fellow sect ruler
In the correct triplicity with the other sect rulers

Good/Bad
He has term AND face...

Bad:
6th is also a bad place for any planet, especially malefic
Sect ruler, out of sect
As a natural malefic he can take away the good which he touches
Not 'seen' by the ASC - inconjunct

Any more experienced hands that can better weigh up my natal Saturn? As I say he conjuncts my PoF so I think it's better I figure him out.

Last edited by byjove; 01-21-2012 at 01:02 AM.
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Unread 08-05-2011, 12:27 AM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Thanks as always! You've been a great help and inspiration recently!
Looking at the nice guide by Robert Hand, I keep coming back to Saturn in my chart - how malefic is he exactly? (He's conjunct my PoF).

Good:
Cadency - the murder contained in jail
Sun trine, exact, and the Sun is a fellow sect-ruler and very well placed
In the sign of a benefic, and it's ruler is well placed too, and fellow sect ruler
In the correct triplicity with the other sect rulers

Good/Bad
He has term AND face...

Bad:
6th is also a bad place for any planet, especially malefic
Sect ruler, out of sect
As a natural malefic he can take away the good which he touches
Not 'seen' by the ASC - inconjunct

Any more experienced hands that can better weigh up my natal Saturn? As I say he conjuncts my PoF so I think it's better I figure him out.
No probs byjove! Excellent that you are minded to explore the terrain of the Ancient Astrologers... far and few are the lands where the Jumblies live byjove (well.... they all went to sea in a sieve)

Hellenistic Astrologers have said that because 6th is a cadent house and malefics have to be somewhere, then so far as the native is concerned the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th houses are 'the best' places for the malefics because their efforts are directed away from the native and towards others. (having said that, remember always that I'm no expert and probably could have worded it better)

as usual there are many views on the subject! Best to consider all!
QUOTE
Medieval astrologer Bonatti explained that each planet also rejoices in a house. He said that Saturn rejoices in the 12th house "because it is the house of sorrow, sadness, labor and weeping; and Saturn rejoices in these things" (G.B.II, p. 100 (c. 1282/1994)). He said that Mars rejoices in the 6th house "... because it is the house of deception, infirmities and servants" and Mars "signifies servants, deceivers, liars.…" (Id.). Note that Mars and Saturn were the malefics and they rejoice in the two opposite houses that modern astrologers consider the most problematic. http://garybrandastrology.com/articles/Traditional/JoysofPlanets4.10.2001.html

and

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~sueward/articles/weak_malefics.htm
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 08-05-2011 at 12:31 AM.
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Unread 08-05-2011, 03:06 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Part of Fortune

The issue of "natural malefics" (Mars, Saturn) is one of the (few) places where I take leave of the Greco/Roman adepts, and instead follow the lead of the Islamic era astrologers, who in essence (perhaps defacto is a better term) rejected the ancient Mars/Saturn always = "evil" doctrine, and instead looked as these planets as usually but not always malefics-ie, as conditional influences. Ibn Ezra (and the Ankara school) for example, considered Saturn to be very benefic under conditions of angularity IF in rulership or exaltation (and if direct)-indeed, under the right circumstances Saturn might be more benefic than Jupiter (according to the Islamic era practitioners)

Now, a cadent Saturn or Mars would (by the above doctrine) be malefic, but weekly so; however, say one has a cadent Saturn in its exaltation of Libra (and also say in an elevated degree of that sign) Here, one would obtain a net benefic influence of Saturn, but, because of cadency, it would be weak.

Greco/Roman doctrine is that the malefics are always "bad"; Modernist doctrine is that they are always relative (could be good or bad); the intermediate Islamic era doctrine makes most sense to me-that Mars and Saturn tend toward being "easily malefic" but that their influence is very conditional and under certain such conditions they can be highly benefic influences.

Relative to Bonatti (and others), most forget that Manilius originally (14AD) gave the joy of Saturn to the 4TH HOUSE, and it was later Greco/Roman authors who either added the 12th house to the 4th house, as a joy of Saturn, or who dropped the original allocation of the joy of Saturn to the 4th house and instead allocated Saturn's joy exclusively to the 12th house.

Looking at Paulus Alexandrianus, Maximus, Antiochus, etc, we can see that conjunctions of the POF (and other Lots) with planets were fully delineated as conjunctions, the quality of the conjuncting planet indicating the quality of the influences from that planet affecting whatever the Lot represented. THEY DID THE SAME WITH STARS in conjunction with POF or other Lots (and they did the same with the dodekatemoria points as well)
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Unread 08-05-2011, 08:00 AM
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Re: Part of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Looking at the nice guide by Robert Hand, I keep coming back to Saturn in my chart - how malefic is he exactly? (He's conjunct my PoF).


Any more experienced hands that can better weigh up my natal Saturn? As I say he conjuncts my PoF so I think it's better I figure him out.
just out of curiosity, what made you decide saturn resides fully in 6th/whole sign? as you know Saturn would be 5th Equal?
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