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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #1  
Unread 06-19-2019, 04:35 AM
Wrt2lv Wrt2lv is offline
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Ruling planet of chart is NOT my sign ruler?

My Google-fu completely fails me on this topic.

According to my chart on Astrodienst, my ruling planet is in fact NOT my sun nor ascendant signs' ruler.

I'm a Capricorn sun (12th house) and also Capricorn ascendant, but apparently my strongest planet is Neptune, by a significant percentage. Possibly because it's conjunction the sun in the 12th and has a ton of other powerful aspects (conjunct Mercury and trine moon for starters), whereas Saturn (a still-powerful) number two, has far fewer connections.

The internet doesn't seem to have an opinion.

1) Is it unusual for your chart's ruler to be different from your sun sign ruler,

and

2) Is your sun sign ruler always considered your chart ruler, even if another planet is more powerful?
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Last edited by Wrt2lv; 06-20-2019 at 05:53 PM.
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  #2  
Unread 06-19-2019, 04:51 AM
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waybread waybread is online now
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Re: Ruling planet of chart is NOT my sign ruler?

It's hard to tell what's going on without seeing your chart.

Basically, there are several different methods for choosing the strongest planet, or ruler, of the chart.

Modern astrology would just tend to identify the planet ruling the sign on your ascendant, as the chart ruler (in your case, Saturn.) This wouldn't be your sun-sign unless your sun sign is in the same sign as your ascendant.

I don't know what formula Astrodienst is using, but it may have something to do with aspects. Do you know how they calculate the strongest planet? I like many things about Astrodienst, but when I looked up my strongest planet, it gave me Chiron, which isn't even a planet, so go figure.

Traditional astrology goes by essential dignities (almuten) or essential plus "accidental" dignities (lord of the geniture,) which may be different yet again.

You can read about them at:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/almuten.html
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

If these methods all give different results, just pick the one you like.
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  #3  
Unread 06-20-2019, 05:58 PM
Wrt2lv Wrt2lv is offline
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Re: Ruling planet of chart is NOT my sign ruler?

Thanks for the info and insight, Waybread!

I attached my chart to the first post for reference.

Yes, I think the Astrodienst thing ranked the planets' power by number of aspects among other things. For me, it says Neptune has 46 aspects, while Saturn has just about 23. In fact Neptune has far more aspects than any other object: Mercury at #2 has 36, and then the Sun at #3 has 27.

The essential/accidental dignities are really interesting. I didn't really know modern astrologers don't always use those anymore?
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Unread 06-20-2019, 06:57 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Ruling planet of chart is NOT my sign ruler?.

There are many measures of potency.

Here are some.

Pluto is cutting planet of a bowl pattern. He is also conj MC. He is in his Affinity. The plutonian Scorpio is emphasized.

Mars is Sole (Final) Dispositor. Through the chain of rulerships he disposes all planets; he is final authority. The Martial side of Scorpio is emphasized.

The MC/10th is underlined.

There is a 12th house stellium. Saturn, on cusp 12, disposes the stellium. 4th house holds 12th lord Jupiter.

All planets are East. All planets are direct.

Pluto & Mercury are angular.

Waybread has already mentioned the planet with most essential dignities at the Asc (lord of the horoscope) and with most essential and accidental dignities (per schedule)(lord of the geniture).

What this "weighing" process tries to do is to find the most powerful, influential planet...which will guide interpretation.

You will need to select those methods and elements that seem fitting to you, organize them by strength, and stick to a disciplined system of evaluating planetary strength or potency.

Last edited by greybeard; 06-20-2019 at 07:39 PM.
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Unread 06-20-2019, 09:32 PM
Cecile Cecile is offline
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Re: Ruling planet of chart is NOT my sign ruler?

I'm not sure what the term "ruling planet" refers to. If I had to single out one planet I would pick your high focus planet, Sun, over Saturn, your Chart Ruler and ruler of your Final Signature, but it's a close race.

I pretty much agree with everyone here; however I believe "Lord" Jupiter is actually in the 3rd not 4th, and Pluto is just a hair (less than 2 degrees) into the Western hemisphere, but I'm happy go along with the Bowl in Eastern hemisphere.


Also, by my count, Pluto is the Final Depositor not Mars as Mars is in Scorpio, Pluto Rules Scorpio, Pluto is in Scorpio.

I don't recognize Chiron as a planet either.

Your Chart Ruler and also Ruler of your Final Signature (preponderance of Earth signs in Cardinal element) is Saturn.

High aspected planet or focus planet is either Sun and/or Mercury which together with Neptune form your 12th House Combust Stellium. (Combust means Sun is involved.)

Wikipedia has a table of traditional essential dignities for quick reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_dignity .

There is no way Neptune, sandwiched in between highly aspected Sun and Mercury in a combust stellium, could possibly be important enough to be your "ruling planet."
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Unread 06-20-2019, 09:52 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Ruling planet of chart is NOT my sign ruler?

I use Chaldean rulerships. Mars rules Scorpio. But I sure wouldn't argue against Pluto, who in my system is preeminent in this chart.

And yes, I counted one finger too many...Jupiter in 3.
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Unread 06-20-2019, 09:53 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Ruling planet of chart is NOT my sign ruler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecile View Post


I'm not sure what the term "ruling planet" refers to.
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ad.php?t=49000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post

Almutem Figuris

is an old doctrine
where one planet
according to certain calculations applied,
receives the honors
to be the Ruler or Lord of the Chart

The word Almutes is an Arabian word which means 'Winner'

Because, the planet is the Winner of all the 'life giving' places.
Or the places which are most sensible and important
in the natal figure.

The method which we'll use here I call Ezra/Zoller method.
Arabian Astrologer Ibn Ezra (1089 1164) was the first (as far as we at this moment are aware) to explicitely wrote about calculating the Almutem Figuris.

In his writings Zoller trace the beginnings of this Almutem Figuris and he found it in the writings of Iambichus (c. 245c. 325) who was Syrian neo-platonic philosopher who wrote also about Astrology in his writings.
Iambicus in his work "Theurgy or on the mysteries of Egypt" speaks about the thing how one can change his fate. He speaks that he can do that through Theurgy and through personal relationship with the Lord of the Geniture of which he (Iambichus) only says that can be known through Astrology, but he didn't explained the method.
Zoller, tracing back the Ibn Ezra's ancestry, through the Sabaeans and his teachers (Mashallah and other) all the way to the first centuries where this doctrine was thought. Because of that line Zoller thinks that the Lord of the Geniture of which Iambichus speaks in his writings is in fact the Almutem Figuris of the Ibn Ezra.

Iambichus speaks (through the name of Porphyry) about the Peculiar Daimon, that is some kind of an Guardian Angel and it is conected to the personal soul but its not the same
Here's what Iambichus says in his Theurgy:
This [daimon] therefore is present as an exemplar before the souls descend into the realm of generated existence. As soon as the soul chooses him for leader the [daimon] immediately comes into charge of completing of its vital endowments and when it descends into the body it unites with the body and becomes the guardian of it common living principle. He likewise directs the the private life of the soul and
whatever the conclusions we may arrive at by inference and reasoning he himself imparts to us the principles."


Zoller about the Almutem Figuris says that it is equally as powerful as all the other planets taken together."

Benjamin Dykes (great student of Zoller) says about Almutem Figuris:
"Almutem Figuris, a powerful planet in the natal figure whose spirit or angel acts as the native's special link to the Divine. The Almutem Figuris is a spiritual astrological delineation, similar to but not the same as Lilly's the "Lord of the Geniture." But like Lilly (and Plato), the Almutem Figuris was taken to affect the native's thoughts, beliefs and character. Spiritual enlightenment can demand that we open our eyes to this particular planet and use it to access the Divine. Significantly, this is a function that many modern astrologers now attribute to the sun sign." (In his article on Happiness).

The method of calculation

1. Find the Essential Dignities (the 5 dignities, apply 3 points to all 3 triplicity rulers), in the Degree of the:
- Sun
- Moon
- Ascendant
- Part of Fortune
- Syzygy (the prenatal lunation, the one that came last, i.e. after which the birth follows - New or Full Moon).

2. Add 7 points for the Day ruler and 6 points to the Hour ruler.

3. Add accidental dignities scores.

For the planet in 1st house you add 12 points.
10th house = 11 points
7th house = 10
4th house = 9
11th = 8
5th = 7
2nd = 6
9th = 5
8th = 4
3rd = 3
12th = 2
6th = 1

The planet which has most points in the aforesaid places is the Almutem Figuris of the chart!

Don't forget to apply the 5 degrees ruler for the planet near the cusp of the houses. For example, if Saturn is at 15 Scorpio in 4th, but the 5th house cusp is at 19 Scorpio, you will calculate that Saturn already in the 5th, and you will give him 7 points instead of 9 as he would took if he was in 4th house. This can make big difference.

The free traditional astrology software - Morinus (google it), calcualte the Almutem Figuris. You can find this option by typing F3. But I should warn you that in that calculation is included some adding of points according to the planets phases. Zoller did not mention any kind of phases calculation so at this moment I'm not aware why the author of the software did included that.

But the best way and more enjoyable is to calculate it with your own hand. You will be familiar with the chart more deeply if you do this calculations with your own hand as the older astrologers did.
And if you must use the Morinus software than subtract the phases scores and you will get the Almutem Figuris right. All else is the same calculation as the Ezra/Zoller method.

Zoller gives short discriptions for every planet being Almutem Figuris:

Sun:
"If the Almuten figuris is the Sun, the native will want to lead, express his creative power and be recognized."

Moon:
"If the Moon, s/he will want to care for, be cared for, eat and make love, dream"

Mercury:
"If it is Mercury, s/he will be diligent in the sciences, business and communications"

Venus:
"Id it is Venus s/he will be a lover of beauty, of music, of men and women etc."

Mars:
"If it is Mars, s/he will fight in order to dominate"

Jupiter:
"If it is Jupiter, s/he will philosophize and teach"

Saturn:
"If it is Saturn he will retire from society, investigate hidden things and suffer adversity.""

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Maybe we should read what Ptolemy actually says - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/1B*.html#21, and what I, petosiris, faithfully set forth and expounded.

Saturn 57, Jupiter 79, Mars 66, Venus 82, Mercury 76, the total is 360. Their arrangement within each place is based on elevation, triangle and house, for the planets with two familiarities are always put first even though they may be maleficent, but where this condition does not exist, the maleficent planets are always put last, the lords of the elevation first, the lords of the triangle second, and the lords of the house third, following the order of the places, and again, those that control two familiarities are preferred to those that have but one. Since no terms are given to the luminaries, the houses of the Sun and the Moon are assigned to Saturn and Mars respectively. As for the number of the terms, when no planet is found with two prerogatives, either with the same place or with those that follow it within the quadrant, there are 7 assigned to beneficent planets, 5 to maleficent planets, and 6 to Mercury, which is common, so that the total is 30. But since some always have two prerogatives, they are given extra degree, subtracted from those that have but one, proportionally starting with the slower moving planets, however, one does not subtract from Jupiter in Cancer on account of the elevation, and from Mars on account of its revolution.



As can be seen, this table is made of the least steps possible, simple and absolutely indisputable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecile View Post


If I had to single out one planet I would pick your high focus planet, Sun, over Saturn, your Chart Ruler and ruler of your Final Signature, but it's a close race.

I pretty much agree with everyone here; however I believe "Lord" Jupiter is actually in the 3rd not 4th, and Pluto is just a hair (less than 2 degrees) into the Western hemisphere, but I'm happy go along with the Bowl in Eastern hemisphere.

Also, by my count, Pluto is the Final Depositor not Mars as Mars is in Scorpio, Pluto Rules Scorpio, Pluto is in Scorpio.

I don't recognize Chiron as a planet either.

Your Chart Ruler and also Ruler of your Final Signature (preponderance of Earth signs in Cardinal element) is Saturn.

High aspected planet or focus planet is either Sun and/or Mercury which together with Neptune form your 12th House Combust Stellium. (Combust means Sun is involved.)

Wikipedia has



a table of traditional essential dignities



for quick reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_dignity .

There is no way Neptune, sandwiched in between highly aspected Sun and Mercury in a combust stellium, could possibly be important enough to be your "ruling planet."
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