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  #51  
Unread 03-26-2019, 02:39 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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As far as I can tell, Morinus constantly refers to the Bible and occultism in his work. However, as far as I can tell Ptolemy does not make a single argument involving such, and to the extent that his hypothesis are natural and capable of investigation, they deserve our attention. And though the four qualities do not constitute the material basis of the world as he thought, they do still persist in the atmosphere to heavily affect human affairs. Of course, it could be proven that they are wrong, for if you compare the two other scientific fields of Ptolemy, astronomy and geography, they had progress and advancement that is myriad-fold, but astrology, mostly zero.

I agree with this.

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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Just trying to get a picture of the intention behind your post, which was in part

to bring foward the discussion about Morin's ideas
(which to be honest is about time we have it),

so just trying to see how much of what you wrote was playing devil's advocate.
All things which occur in this world are brought about by higher causes
that is the caelum and the stars - MORIN
as Aristotle himself implied when he said:

"This lower world is contiguous with the higher egions which govern all its activities"
and elsewhere
"The sun and man beget man"
ASTROLOGIA GALLICA Book 21 translated from the Latin by Richard S. Baldwin
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  #53  
Unread 03-26-2019, 02:45 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Just trying to get a picture of the intention behind your post, which was in part to bring foward the discussion about Morin's ideas (which to be honest is about time we have it), so just trying to see how much of what you wrote was playing devil's advocate.

Well the argument has always been that questions are created at a certain time for a specific purpose and thus a chart can be drawn for them. In the similar manner that elective is used to create a specific event. Aren't those functionally similar?
I am not very familiar with Morin's work, but didn't he explicitly rejected horary astrology, but not elections for the reason you mention? Of course, one could accept that a question is an event and that an event has its origin, but the assumption that the universe ''magically'' or just ''so happens'' to agree with absolutely every event and question its ludicrous to anyone who has not been indoctrinated in belief. Furthermore, I question the assumption that universe just so happens to be able to answer ''how long will I live'' by a question, no matter much it occupies the mind of the individual.

Because the question ''how long will I live'' is precisely the subject matter of genethlialogical astrology, and partly, universal, for sometimes people perish as groups. And of course, it has to be investigated through the origin of the individual or through the many origins of the universals rather than the question. It seems unlikely that the latter is able to ''just so'' agree with the preceding.

Edit: But if we take a much simpler question that can't be answered by nativities like the length of life, but rather ''where are my keys'', in this case one may wonder how much the universe is able to determine such very particular sublunar phenomenon which clearly leaves the aforementioned ''solid base of universals'', by I which I think Al-Biruni meant the four qualities.

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  #54  
Unread 03-26-2019, 02:46 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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But Al-biruni is limited by the religious element of his time. It is not uncommon given divination was banned in the religion/empire of his time, and while astrology was permitted as the study of the influence of the planets, most techniques concerned with astrology were not about divination.
Well that would mean they adopted a materialist/mechanistic viewpoint partly because of their religion, would you not agree? It probably survived because of this (I recall this argument elsewhere, Nicholas Campion?). Then I don't understand what is the problem with my worldview at all, in fact it's more in line with theirs than yours.

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  #55  
Unread 03-26-2019, 03:05 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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I am not very familiar with Morin's work, but didn't he explicitly rejected horary astrology, but not elections for the reason you mention? Of course, one could accept that a question is an event and that an event has its origin, but the assumption that the universe ''magically'' or just ''so happens'' to agree with absolutely every event and question its ludicrous to anyone who has not been indoctrinated in belief. Furthermore, I question the assumption that universe just so happens to be able to answer ''how long will I live'' by a question, no matter much it occupies the mind of the individual.

Because the question ''how long will I live'' is precisely the subject matter of genethlialogical astrology, and partly, universal, for sometimes people perish as groups. And of course, it has to be investigated through the origin of the individual or through the many origins of the universals rather than the question. It seems unlikely that the latter is able to ''just so'' agree with the preceding.
I never really got around the last chapters of astrologia gallica, could never find them online. But presumably Morin did reject many of the theorems of the persian astrologers, considering them blasphemous and attributes Horary as their own invention, along with "arabic" parts.

Certainly Horary comes to europe through the medieval persians, but since the discovery of catalogus codicum astrologorum graecorum, along with the 5th book of Dorotheus, there is evidence that Horary was practiced in a rudementary form in Helenic times.

Actually the question "how long will I live" seems farfetched to me, because Horary will never net an answer such as "88 years, 11 months 12 days.." etc., but rather tell you a "soon" (by implication of a perfecting aspect with 8th ruler or conjunction with Sun) or "not for now" (by lack of configuration) - in which case the question is asked from a reference point when living through a situation where death may be close. For the real timing natal astorlogy has always been prefered, which can actually tell you the totality of your life span. The problem with Horary today is the astrologers making claims about exact timing of events.

Elective astrology does work on a similar basis to Horary if we think about it, because it creates a suitable time to perform an event, but does not mean that all events performed at that time will be gracious for anyone (which also as we know, means "event" astrology does not exist). What would be the different configuration between doing something on one day or the next, when planetary motion may not even change signs (not even the moon), and the only practical change would be a different planetary hour? If we think about the irrationality of Horary, we also have to assume the irrationality of Elective.
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Unread 03-26-2019, 03:08 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Well that would mean they adopted a materialist/mechanistic viewpoint partly because of their religion, would you not agree? It probably survived because of this (I recall this argument elsewhere, Nicholas Campion?). Then I don't understand what is the problem with my worldview at all, in fact it's more in line with theirs than yours.

Its not that I find a problem with it, I do agree on the subject that the movements of the stars can influence human affairs, and that we could and should find a natural explanation to them.
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Unread 03-26-2019, 03:11 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Horary did not exist in Hellenistic times, however, event astrology was applied to elections and questions like ''where is the missing ship'', they could be called initiations, or inceptions (Dykes), or initiatives (Riley). However, questions like the missing ship in ''Palchus'' can be viewed as events for which there is no other way to answer than by question, and this is easily recognized when you read Dorotheus Book V, Hephaistio Book III or other Hellenistic material that I am intimately aware of. Also this event astrology did not involve its own technicality, as does the Arabic one. Eventually Arabic material was translated by the Byzantines as its own field, called ''questions''.

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  #58  
Unread 03-26-2019, 03:19 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Elective astrology does work on a similar basis to Horary if we think about it, because it creates a suitable time to perform an event, but does not mean that all events performed at that time will be gracious for anyone (which also as we know, means "event" astrology does not exist). What would be the different configuration between doing something on one day or the next, when planetary motion may not even change signs (not even the moon), and the only practical change would be a different planetary hour? If we think about the irrationality of Horary, we also have to assume the irrationality of Elective.
Well, I do not dispute that you can't elect more favourable times for undertaking, because this thing is self-evident and everyone even non-astrologers ''elect'', I am just skeptical we should do this by minutely observing lucky minutes/ascendants of the day. Furthermore the nativity of the individual and the limited volition of the individual takes precedence to this, I think, unless of course we again adopt a ''just-so'' model of the universe for everything. I believe this is why the philosopher, in contrast with the opinion of his contemporaries like Valens and Firmicus, rejects the notion of full determinism, and never once mentions this branch, while explicitly focusing on the ''two great parts''.
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  #59  
Unread 03-26-2019, 03:32 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

Well the argument has always been
that questions are created at a certain time for a specific purpose
and thus a chart can be drawn for them.
to be clear

Horary questions must be specific
and are answered using a specific set of rules
for example by allocating significators for the question
and focusing on those significators to the exclusion of all else
which is very different from the way a natal chart is read

Horary question 'purpose' could be for example discerning location of missing people
or

discerning the intentions of the Quesited
or

discerning the location of lost objects
such as important papers, jewellery

in contrast
ELECTIONAL astrology attempts to discern the ideal moment to act
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

In the similar manner that elective is used to create a specific event.
Aren't those functionally similar?
ELECTIONAL aka elective charts do not "create" a specific event
but rather assess the ideal TIME to undertake a specific event
for example
ideal time to travel/sign a business deal et al

EVENT astrology may discern for example
circumstances surrounding a murder/suicide/crime et al

and thus
Horary
Electional
and Event astrology differ
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  #60  
Unread 03-26-2019, 03:59 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Horary did not exist in Hellenistic times, however, event astrology was applied to elections and questions like ''where is the missing ship'', they could be called initiations, or inceptions (Dykes), or initiatives (Riley). However, questions like the missing ship in ''Palchus'' can be viewed as events for which there is no other way to answer than by question, and this is easily recognized when you read Dorotheus Book V, Hephaistio Book III or other Hellenistic material that I am intimately aware of. Also this event astrology did not involve its own technicality, as does the Arabic one. Eventually Arabic material was translated by the Byzantines as its own field, called ''questions''.
Yes and in medieval european texts they usually call it interrogations, which is what we call Horary (with many authors using the term "proto-horary" to refer to this manuscripts). Functionally they work the same, because it is casting a chart in order to solve a question. While I agree medievals added many techniques to Horary, and have ignored others, I disagree its development has varied so much as to be indistinguishible from the texts.

But on subject, given it is a branch that derived from elective, Morinus rejection of it seems a bit of a nit-pick.
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Unread 03-26-2019, 04:01 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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But Al-biruni is limited by the religious element of his time.
It is not uncommon given divination was banned in the religion/empire of his time, and
while astrology was permitted as the study of the influence of the planets,
most techniques concerned with astrology were not about divination.
"a religious element" is evident even in todays 21st Century
i.e.
an example comment
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post

It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer, but
I think you've made a good outline for yourself, and others who are.
for some then "astrology" is aka "theism"/"Theism"
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Unread 03-26-2019, 04:10 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Well, I do not dispute that you can't elect more favourable times for undertaking, because this thing is self-evident and everyone even non-astrologers ''elect'', I am just skeptical we should do this by minutely observing lucky minutes/ascendants of the day. Furthermore the nativity of the individual and the limited volition of the individual takes precedence to this, I think, unless of course we again adopt a ''just-so'' model of the universe for everything. I believe this is why the philosopher, in contrast with the opinion of his contemporaries like Valens and Firmicus, rejects the notion of full determinism, and never once mentions this branch, while explicitly focusing on the ''two great parts''.
True, though Firmicus or Valens do add the exception that fate can be changed by God's will. So while this may be a bit of reading between the lines on my part, there is the concession on both authors that fate while solid and ordained, has the possibility of change (although certainly uinlikely).

Its clear that in pagan stories throughout the hellenic period, the hero can always bargain with the Gods to change his fate. So the notion of this possibility has never surprised me when reading Valens. If we remove the theological or mystical aspects from astrology, in essence taking out the notion that the source of this limited form of choice is not because of God, then that fits with your explanation on Ptolomy.
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Unread 03-26-2019, 04:14 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
"a religious element" is evident even in todays 21st Century
i.e.
an example comment

for some then "astrology" is aka "theism"/"Theism"
What I mean is that the religious theocracy of his time would have prevented him from openly writting about certain branches and topics of astrology that would go against religious teachings, thus why he denounced them.

The catholic church in Europe also had a negative view of astrology, but allowed weather predictions with it (viewing it as part of the Aristotelian natural science), while discouraging other forms of prediction through astrology. You may notice that astrology in europe did not arise until the latter part of the medieval period, when the church's influence began to wane.
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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True, though Firmicus or Valens do add the exception that fate can be changed by God's will.
Firmicus says that astrology does not apply to the emperor (we all know the reason), but Valens says that gods are actors and play their part as much as men - ''the gods are agents of the Fates''
''Just as actors on the stage change their masks according to the poets’ words and act the characters as they should - sometimes kings, sometimes bandits, sometimes rustics, city people, gods - in the same way we too must act the parts assigned us by Fate and adapt ourselves to the chances of the moment'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

Both Manilius and Valens reject that men can change their fate by prayer.
''It is impossible to overcome with prayers and sacrifices what has been established from the beginning
or to gain for oneself something different, something more to one’s liking.
What has been given will come
about even if we do not pray; what is not fated will not happen, even if we do pray.
'' - ibid.

So what you say is not true.
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post


What I mean is that the religious theocracy of his time would have prevented him from openly writting about certain branches and topics of astrology that would go against religious teachings, thus why he denounced them.

The catholic church in Europe also had a negative view of astrology, but allowed weather predictions with it (viewing it as part of the Aristotelian natural science), while discouraging other forms of prediction through astrology. You may notice that astrology in europe did not arise until the latter part of the medieval period, when the church's influence began to wane
.
If as I mention
"astrology is aka Theism"
then
religious thinking of 21st Century
may well be preventing aka censoring some today
from openly writing on certain topics of astrology
that "go against Theism"
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
If as I mention
"astrology is aka Theism"
then
religious thinking of 21st Century
may well be preventing aka censoring some today
from openly writing on certain topics of astrology
that "go against Theism"
It is unlikely that religious authorities will be able to censor this where I live, at least for now, though its easy to derogate someone in many parts of the world by calling him ''atheist'' (presumably because the person thinks he is morally superior in some sense), as if he thinks I would be offended, rather than flattered, for one is lacking argument, because of emotion or ignorance.
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

It is unlikely that religious authorities will be able to censor this where I live, at least for now, though
its easy to derogate someone in many parts of the world by calling him ''atheist''
(presumably because the person thinks he is morally superior in some sense), as if
he thinks I would be offended, rather than flattered.
Quite
Nevertheless our forum has in the past
hosted discussions
with members whose families forbid them
currently
i.e.
21st Century
from entertaining astrological ideas
or undertaking any form of astrological prognostication

also
while it is clearly acceptable to denigrate/scorn/scoff at "atheists"
in contrast
to scoff at religious beliefs
is not allowed
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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But on subject, given it is a branch that derived from elective, Morinus rejection of it seems a bit of a nit-pick.
No, I don't think so. As I demonstrated it is perfectly fine to say that elections exist and are possible, people ''elect'' for business, for planting crops, for travel, they organize everything on certain schedules, all this even without knowledge of astrology, but it's quite stretching to say that you can answer particular questions in physical manner, just because the preceding is possible. I have no problem with this kind of electional astrology based on common sense, but as I said, particulars can be easily investigated from nativities (the ambient at the very time of conception which determines the genetic admixture of the seed from the parents and therefore our biology, and the very time of birth which for the most part indicates it) and universals (whether through the influence of terrain, weather or the political systems in authority) in this manner.

In my OP, I mean that electional astrology as this type of procrastination characterized by observing a lucky minute on a certain day, which is without any obvious natural benefit, rather than to act as soon as possible with common sense, since the daily motions of the stars do not control or indicate all minute particulars, which is quite unfounded in argumentation, and frankly impossible. Of course, I am well aware that astrologers will insist on the non-procrastinating part of their work (that involves time range), but it's very doubtful they do not precisely encourage it, for the aforementioned reasons, if anything, the average person needs more internal locus of control in matters pertaining to his destiny, and one would be even more successful in his affairs if he combines the ''resisting faculty with the prognostic''.

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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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He sees astrology as a form of divination.
We live in a very tolerant time, each astrologer doing dozen different of the points mentioned on the first page side by side with the other, and both frequently failing with their objective, which does not bode well for the god theory helping each one of us in the usage of contradictory systems. But we need not become pessimistic of our field, or become subjectivists.

Its main attraction is the promise that it contains entirely new and extremely important knowledge that might be gained by systematic study of the phenomena in question, and this would be worth pursuing even if the subject happened to be partly or complete waste of time.
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  #70  
Unread 03-26-2019, 06:51 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Jumping in briefly. Al biruni spent the later part of his life as a court astrologer, so I'm thinking that questions would have been a big part of his work, and he certainly wrote about horary.

Germane, but slightly OT. I was at amazon (can't remember if it was .ca or .com) a couple of days ago, and if you go look at Ben Dykes' Choices and Inceptions, you will find that the preview of the book contains almost 80 pages of his introduction. It's relevant to this discussion if you've not read it, because it goes into a lot of how horary, elections, and the natal chart were seen by the Persians. And it's fascinating.

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
What I mean is that the religious theocracy of his time would have prevented him from openly writting about certain branches and topics of astrology that would go against religious teachings, thus why he denounced them.

The catholic church in Europe also had a negative view of astrology, but allowed weather predictions with it (viewing it as part of the Aristotelian natural science), while discouraging other forms of prediction through astrology. You may notice that astrology in europe did not arise until the latter part of the medieval period, when the church's influence began to wane.
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Unread 03-26-2019, 07:06 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

On the concept of divination. That's how I see astrology. It's how the stoics saw it, too, and quite a few others. It's trying to see/understand the mind of God in some small way. That's what divination is.

Unlike Cornelius, I don't think anyone else uses the term in a way that includes 'if I reinterpret this chart, it will nullify fate'.
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Unread 03-26-2019, 07:34 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Oddity,

May care to share your experience as an astrologer in the 80s before software era. How can you generated birth chart back then? Must be using ephimeris, no?

Thanks
R

Last edited by SunConjunctUranus; 03-26-2019 at 07:36 PM.
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Unread 03-26-2019, 08:08 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

I think you mean the 1960s, cos that's when I started. Margaret Hone's Modern Textbook of Astrology figured heavily into it as she gave wonderfully clear explanations of how to construct a chart, determine planetary positions, use logarithmic tables, and houses. Thank you, Mrs Hone!

Tools: ephemeris, books of longitude and latitude, books of time changes, tables of houses, logarithmic tables, paper, pen or pencil, and compass.

It'd take a couple of hours to do up a chart in those days, and a knowledge of maths and astronomy, so the barrier to entry, so to speak, was considerably higher than it is today.

What we didn't have were traditional texts. There was some research in that field going on, but the writings tended to be scholarly critical editions that ended up in university libraries, usually in Latin, at a cost of several hundred dollars per volume.

So I was stuck with modern astrology. Some of which made sense, and some of which seemed like 'okay, this is right, this is right, this bit looks like it's papered over, but it doesn't fit and I don't know what does'. And Jung. I can't say what I think of his work here without getting banned, but I'm not a fan. 'Synthesising' a chart was a big deal, and I'm not sure anyone ever managed to do it, because I don't think it's possible, and I'm not sure it even means anything. People's lives tend to be a whole lot messier than that, and astrology is NOT primarily a psychological pursuit.

Horary and mundane were virtually unheard of, as were elections, so it was birth charts, solar and lunar returns, and progressions, and the progressions never worked. And way too much emphasis on the outer planets (that hasn't changed).

I persevered for reasons that would offend the non- religious and that I don't care to share here, but I knew there was something more to it, though by the 1980s I was pretty disillusioned. Luckily, the trad renewal was starting to happen. Luckily, I lived quite near to Robert Zoller.

Stuff finally started making sense.

Software is great. While I don't use Solar Fire anymore, that was the first comprehensive astrology programme to hit the market. My registration number was - 93.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
Oddity,

May care to share your experience as an astrologer in the 80s before software era. How can you generated birth chart back then? Must be using ephimeris, no?

Thanks
R

Last edited by Oddity; 03-26-2019 at 08:11 PM.
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  #74  
Unread 03-26-2019, 08:23 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Firmicus says that astrology does not apply to the emperor (we all know the reason), but Valens says that gods are actors and play their part as much as men - ''the gods are agents of the Fates''
''Just as actors on the stage change their masks according to the poets’ words and act the characters as they should - sometimes kings, sometimes bandits, sometimes rustics, city people, gods - in the same way we too must act the parts assigned us by Fate and adapt ourselves to the chances of the moment'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

Both Manilius and Valens reject that men can change their fate by prayer.
''It is impossible to overcome with prayers and sacrifices what has been established from the beginning
or to gain for oneself something different, something more to one’s liking.
What has been given will come
about even if we do not pray; what is not fated will not happen, even if we do pray.
'' - ibid.

So what you say is not true.
I never said, that they said it changed through prayer. And I also said and I quote myself, might be a bit of reading between the lines on my part, however I always found the following statements interesting:

In book 9 of the Anthology Valens states:

It is then perfectly obvious that the gods can attend to men and can supply them with the finest and most respected benefits. Wishing men to keep the laws which they have made, the gods do not nullify the Fates; rather they confirm their effective control of human affairs with unbreakable oaths. For there is among the gods a fearsome and respected oath “By the Styx,” an oath which is accompanied by a steady cast of mind and unalterable Necessity.(..) The poet portrays Zeus making this threat, a god who can do what he says, but the Poet also mentions that Zeus does nothing to transgress the law nor does he do wrong among the gods.

So in the Anthology when providing this example, it is implied that Valens does not believe the Gods to be subject to Fate, but rather act in compliance with it. However, in the very paragraphs he also states that fate is unchangable, and the reason given is that the God's do not wish to intercede in human affairs. The implicartion being that while God's do not go against Fate, they could if they wanted to. This is when we enter the myth discussion (from where the attributes of the planets originate), in which the God's actually do intercede on behalf of humans all the time. This opens the possibility that both authors, while sustaining that fate is unchangable and unmovable, can't by logic eny the possibility. As I stated before, it does take reading between the lines. I did not try to imply they mean that fate can be changed (I might have understated that fact).
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Unread 03-26-2019, 08:31 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Jumping in briefly. Al biruni spent the later part of his life as a court astrologer, so I'm thinking that questions would have been a big part of his work, and he certainly wrote about horary.

Germane, but slightly OT. I was at amazon (can't remember if it was .ca or .com) a couple of days ago, and if you go look at Ben Dykes' Choices and Inceptions, you will find that the preview of the book contains almost 80 pages of his introduction. It's relevant to this discussion if you've not read it, because it goes into a lot of how horary, elections, and the natal chart were seen by the Persians. And it's fascinating.
https://ia801209.us.archive.org/24/i...0Al-Biruni.pdf

It's taken from - 515. At the end, he does actually briefly describe horary, while rejecting idle questions and thought-interpretation (what item does the person hold), which he ascribes to magicians. But he does seem to have reservations about the subject. I've read a similar claim about Morinus, do you have reference for him?
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