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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Unread 10-23-2018, 04:37 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

The main question is:

Does astrology work?

If the answer is yes, then there can be no free will. An iota of free will would render astrology useless.

Many recent discoveries in biology underscore the simple fact that our choices sre dictated by biological factors. We have no free will.

I love being alive. Even if I'm a puppet, I got a free ticket to The Greatest Show On Earth

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  #27  
Unread 10-23-2018, 05:37 PM
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The main question is:

Does astrology work?

If the answer is yes, then there can be no free will. An iota of free will would render astrology useless.

Many recent discoveries in biology underscore the simple fact that our choices sre dictated by biological factors. We have no free will.

I love being alive. Even if I'm a puppet, I got a free ticket to The Greatest Show On Earth
I decide to cut my one of my nails under an angle of 47 degrees. If that is not predetermined via the ambient and its relation with the sublunar realm or the particular environment, would you say that astrology is useless? Ptolemy did not think so.
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  #28  
Unread 10-23-2018, 06:13 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The main question is:

Does astrology work?

If the answer is yes, then there can be no free will. An iota of free will would render astrology useless.

Many recent discoveries in biology underscore the simple fact that our choices sre dictated by biological factors. We have no free will.

I love being alive. Even if I'm a puppet, I got a free ticket to The Greatest Show On Earth
What about, "Astrology doesn't compel, it impels"? The requirements of society, environment, and tradition can all interfere with much of what the Charts tell us about ourselves as individuals.
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  #29  
Unread 10-23-2018, 06:21 PM
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

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What about, "Astrology doesn't compel, it impels"? The requirements of society, environment, and tradition can all interfere with much of what the Charts tell us about ourselves as individuals.
Society, environment and traditions are under the control of universal, although to some degree the individual also makes a difference (genethlialogy) as do events (katarchic) astrology.
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  #30  
Unread 10-23-2018, 07:17 PM
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

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The person of his will is committing the crime, even if everything operates through fate. You still have ethics and reason.
If one's will can over-rides fate, then it is no longer fate. Fate means nothing can change it.
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  #31  
Unread 10-23-2018, 07:36 PM
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

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If one's will can over-rides fate, then it is no longer fate.
Fate means nothing can change it.
Death is everyone's ultimate "Fate"
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  #32  
Unread 10-23-2018, 07:54 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Death is everyone's ultimate "Fate"
Define "Death".
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  #33  
Unread 10-23-2018, 08:09 PM
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

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If one's will can over-rides fate, then it is no longer fate. Fate means nothing can change it.
I did not say contrawise, just stated that the acceptance of fate does not negate the existence of gods and laws, even if those too are agents of fate.

''The soul of man does violence to itself, first of all, when it becomes an abscess and, as it were, a tumour on the universe, so far as it can. For to be vexed at anything which happens is a separation of ourselves from nature, in some part of which the natures of all other things are contained. In the next place, the soul does violence to itself when it turns away from any man, or even moves towards him with the intention of injuring, such as are the souls of those who are angry. In the third place, the soul does violence to itself when it is overpowered by pleasure or by pain. Fourthly, when it plays a part, and does or says anything insincerely and untruly. Fifthly, when it allows any act of its own and any movement to be without an aim, and does anything thoughtlessly and without considering what it is, it being right that even the smallest things be done with reference to an end; and the end of rational animals is to follow the reason and the law of the most ancient city and polity.'' - Aurelius, M., & Long, G. (1910). The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/me...ons.2.two.html

Compatibilism is necessary for making law and philosophy.

Last edited by petosiris; 10-23-2018 at 08:17 PM.
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  #34  
Unread 10-23-2018, 08:11 PM
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

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Define "Death".
Define "define"
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  #35  
Unread 10-23-2018, 09:35 PM
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

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Death is everyone's ultimate "Fate"
But please remember, people don't ask whether they will die in the end. They ask, when and how death will come to certain individual.

Death itself is not fate, but end of every life = event.

When and how death will come is fate.
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  #36  
Unread 10-23-2018, 09:42 PM
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

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But please remember, people don't ask whether they will die in the end.

They ask, when and how death will come to certain individual.

Death itself is not fate, but end of every life = event.

When and how death will come is fate.
everyone who has ever lived has died eventually
eventual death is inevitable hence "Fate"
i.e.

those now alive
eventually won't be alive
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  #37  
Unread 10-23-2018, 10:08 PM
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

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everyone who has ever lived has died eventually
eventual death is inevitable hence "Fate"
i.e.

those now alive
eventually won't be alive

That's not fate. That is just a property of life.

Fate is set path for an individual.

It will have detailed information on how and when event will unfold.
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  #38  
Unread 10-23-2018, 10:47 PM
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

Yes, there's free will. Chart configurations have high end and low end manifestations of the same chart patterns. Astrology generally is the study of probabilities. Through free will and lucid moments in life you can select from a range of probabilities and leverage your chart into higher end manifestations.

This is seen in the pentagram, the 4 points are under the 5th pointing upwards, denoting spirit/akasha over matter/the 4 elements. Spirit, or consciousness, is related to free will. Pure determinism is when the elements and matter reign over spirit, i.e. the inverted pentagram. I believe that there is a significant portion of humanity that are effectively automatons though, without spirit. They would be completely at the mercy of genetics, cultural influences, astrological, elemental influences etc. without any free-will.

If you study hermeticism, like Franz Bardon's work, you can read about becoming a master over the elements instead of being mastered by them. There are practices which can increase your free-will, such as meditation. It increases your consciousness and detaches you from your various egoic structures which run your life. From that space you are able to make more original anomalous actions and manifest situations which aren't rigidly deterministic.
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  #39  
Unread 10-23-2018, 11:21 PM
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Re: The concept of transiting planets being influenced by their natal counterpart

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Originally Posted by HoldOrFold View Post
Yes, there's free will. Chart configurations have high end and low end manifestations of the same chart patterns. Astrology generally is the study of probabilities. Through free will and lucid moments in life you can select from a range of probabilities and leverage your chart into higher end manifestations.

This is seen in the pentagram, the 4 points are under the 5th pointing upwards, denoting spirit/akasha over matter/the 4 elements. Spirit, or consciousness, is related to free will. Pure determinism is when the elements and matter reign over spirit, i.e. the inverted pentagram. I believe that there is a significant portion of humanity that are effectively automatons though, without spirit. They would be completely at the mercy of genetics, cultural influences, astrological, elemental influences etc. without any free-will.

If you study hermeticism, like Franz Bardon's work, you can read about becoming a master over the elements instead of being mastered by them. There are practices which can increase your free-will, such as meditation. It increases your consciousness and detaches you from your various egoic structures which run your life. From that space you are able to make more original anomalous actions and manifest situations which aren't rigidly deterministic.
Uhm, the downward pentagram is not the symbol of Stoicism, but I see the connection there with the initial letter. I quoted Marcus Aurelius, I don't get the feeling from his philosophy or biography that he was the neurospaston you describe.

Last edited by petosiris; 10-23-2018 at 11:24 PM.
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