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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #26  
Unread 04-12-2007, 03:26 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Where did you obtain a birth time?

As far as I'm aware, Victoria's birth time has never been sourced.

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  #27  
Unread 04-12-2007, 05:23 PM
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Chart potential, to Frisian

Quote:
...Can I put forward a thought I have often had regarding how character and circumstances act out in a chart?...The example chart is very Earthy, so a Saturn in Pisces might not be so much 'spiritual' as a tangible bottle of booze, and a Jupiter in Aquarius not so much 'great humanitarian activity' but a physical rebellious disregard of the law...
Frisian,

I think the chart shows the potential for the person and not the actuality. So when we don't know what a person did with their chart energies chart, it is very difficult to guess how their energies might come out or did come out. For example, the "spiritual" energy you mention has tremendous potential and is easily abused. On one side its associated with mysticism, drugs, alcoholism, etc. On the other its associated with sloth, laziness, etc. Making a "spiritual" path requires the person to actually work to develop their spiritual potential...not to simply take the much easier escapist path.

And so people frequently fall off the spiritual path: they become drunks, dopers, fanatics, etc. This does not mean that the chart energy showed that they were going to become these things, it simply showed that these were all easier choices for them than doing what is best for them and others. For there IS a right way and a wrong way to use chart energy: self or other empowerment use of our chart energy is the right way, and self or other destructive use of our chart energy is the wrong way. So Mother Theresa, Ghandi, etc. used their "spiritual" energy the right way: helping and uplifting themselves and those around them. While Charles Manson, Hitler, etc. used their "spiritual" energy the wrong way: to try to become gods and crush everyone and everything in their path.

One thing we CAN get from a chart of people on the wrong path is a sense of compassion and loss, that the great, powerful potential of the chart energy could be so abused and perverted...hurting the chart owner and everyone around them.

Spiritually,

Tim
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Last edited by wilsontc; 04-12-2007 at 05:27 PM.
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  #28  
Unread 04-12-2007, 06:21 PM
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Hi everyone,



The owner of mystery chart 1 was the main player in a duo that picked up the label of ‘The Moors Murderers’ Ian Brady and Myra Hindley (pictured above). Together they coaxed young children into going with one or both of them, sometimes they were taken to a deserted spot on Saddleworth Moor or back to Brady’s house where they were tortured and killed in horrendous fashion. In court neither of them showed any remorse and I think the Judge branded them as the two most evil people he had ever come across. Hindley died aged 60 in prison while Brady is still alive in Ashworth Psychiatric Hospital where in 1997 he decided he would starve himself to death; this went to the high court where the doctors requests to force feed him were accepted. As a consequence of this he wrote to a national tv station (bbc) asking for his right to die by offering to blacken Hindleys name further (as if that is possible) by telling the truth about what he told her to say at the trial so she would get a lighter sentence. Below are some excerpts from a letter he sent to the BBC TV station in the UK.

“First accept the determinant. Myra Hindley and I once loved each other. We were a unified force, not two conflicting entities. The relationship was not based on the delusional concept of folie a deux, but on a conscious/subconscious emotional and psychological affinity. She regarded periodic homicides as rituals of reciprocal innervation, marriage ceremonies theoretically binding us ever closer. As the records show, before we met my criminal activities had been primarily mercenary. Afterwards, a duality of motivation developed. Existential philosophy melded with the spirituality of death and became predominant. We experimented with the concept of total possibility. Instead of the requisite Lady Macbeth, I got Messalina. Apart our futures would have taken radically divergent courses.”

“The reason why the trial judge made a distinction between Myra Hindley and myself. Before entering the witness box, I instructed both her counsel and my own to ask me specific questions designed to give the fullest opportunity of providing a cover for Myra. This managed to get her off on one murder charge. I also told her to adopt a distancing strategy when she went into the witness box, admitting to minor crimes whilst denying major. When, upon my advice, she appealed against sentence on the grounds that she should have been tried separately, Lord Chief Justice Parker denied the appeal, stating that, far from being disadvantaged by being tried with me, it had been to her great benefit as all my evidence had been in her favor. For twenty years I continued to ratify the cover I had given her at the trial whilst, in contrast, she systematically began to fabricate upon it to my detriment. Therefore, when I learned from the Panorama programme this week that she was now claiming I had threatened to kill her if she did not participate in the Moors murders, I considered that the lowest lie of all. The fact that she continued to write several lengthy letters a week to me for seven years after we were imprisoned contradicts this cynical allegation. Perhaps her expedient demonomania now implies that I exercised an evil influence over her for seven years from my prison cell three hundred miles distant? In character she is essentially a chameleon, adopting whatever camouflage will suit and voicing whatever she believes the individual wishes to hear. This subliminal soft sell lured the innocent and naive. As for the parole board, I advised her to build on three pillars: educational studies, powerful contacts and religion. She did. I myself have never applied for parole and never shall, which is why I can afford the luxury of veracity and free expression.”

“In the aforementioned Panorama programme, former Home Office Minister A. Widdicombe stated there are twenty-three prisoners in the UK who will never be released. Why has the public heard so little of them? In this and other special hospitals run by prison warders there are also patients no-one has heard of, who have been rotting behind bars for forty and fifty years for relatively minor offences. That puts the present loud debate over Myra Hindley in proper perspective, and crystallizes the reason why I have long advocated UK prisoners and patients in special hospitals should have access to voluntary euthanasia.”

Ian Brady

Ian Brady was born on 2nd January 1938 in the slums of Glasgow Scotland. He started life without a father and in fact he never knew his father at all. Because his mother Peggy could not afford to feed and clothe him, she put him up for unofficial adoption at around four months old. She regularly visited him up until he was around 12 years old but apparently he never knew she was his mother. His step-parents described him as a lonely difficult child prone to temper tantrums and slow to integrate. He would bully the smaller children and capture and torture small animals, in some very bizarre ways. After developing an unhealthy interest in the Nazi party and hanging out in bad company it was only a matter of time before stealing become a way of life for him. At around 16 years old his behaviour worsened and his crimes progressed to burglary, before long he was brought before the law court and only narrowly escaped a custodial sentence by agreeing to reside with his real mother and stepfather Patrick Brady.
While at home his interests broadened, the Nazi party was still very appealing to him and he read a number of books related to the third Reich, he also began to read literature on general sadism and especially the writings of the Marquis De Sade.
When he was 17 his criminal activities eventually led him into Strangeways prison where he resided until November 1957. True to his nature he could not fit in very well and made enemies in Strangeways that caused him to isolate himself from the other prisoners whenever he could. Consequently he endured a difficult time from the other inmates which caused him to suppress even more anger at the world for not protecting him as a child. After his release from Strangeways Brady tried his hand at several manual jobs but he could not keep them. He met Myra Hindley while he was working as a stock clerk in Manchester in 1961, it was reported that the first movie he took her to see was ‘The Nuremburg Trials’, not the most romantic of movies. Being her first lover Brady quickly took control of her innocence by encouraging her to read the works of Hitler and the Marquis De Sade. She became quickly indoctrinated into Brady’s extremist views and was soon dressing to please him and posing for pornographic pictures. Gradually Brady fed his outrageous views to the naïve Hindley who believed everything he said, even when he told her “rape and murder were the supreme pleasure” she unquestioningly accepted it.

Who knows how many more poor children would have have suffered at the hands of Brady and Hindley had it not been for Hindley’s 17 year old brother-in-law David Smith going to the police. On the 6th October 1965 he called in at Brady’s home just in time to witness Brady killing Edward Evans with an axe, then finishing him off by choking him with electrical flex. He told the Police that as soon as Evens was dead Brady and Hindley joked about the mess and told him that this was not the first they had killed, there were others buried on the moors. Smith helped clean up and concealed his terror for fear of being next if he showed any signs of weakness he might have been next. He got out of the Brady house as soon as he could, rushed home and told his wife, then contacted the Police.
The Police went around to Brady’s house and found Evans body upstairs in the bedroom. Brady claimed it was the result of an argument between himself, Smith and Evans that got out of hand. He denied any involvement by Hindley who remained at large for a further 4 days. It was when the Police searched her car that they found a document describing in detail how the two of them planned to carry out the murder that gave away her involvement in the Evans murder. During a search of the house the Police discovered a ‘left luggage’ ticket for a locker at Manchester Central Station which when searched revealed “sadistic gadgets, pornography, including photographs of Lesley Ann bound and gagged in Hindley’s bedroom. A tape recording was also found, on which a little girl could be heard crying and begging for her life. Her mother Ann Downey was forced to identify the voice on the tape as that of her 10 year old daughter.” Hindley had recorded the entire rape and torture of Lesley Ann on tape. It is still widely believed that there were other missing children from the same areas they used that have never been found…

Some important dates are listed below. I may not have time this evening to add my small Lot's delineation which I will add by tomorrow evening.

Victims =

12th July 1963: Pauline Reade aged 16 – Went missing
11th November 1963: John Kilbride aged 12 – Body discovered on 21st October 1965
16th June 1964: Keith Bennett aged 12 – Went missing
26th December 1964: Lesley Ann Downey aged 10 – Naked body discovered on 10th October 1965
6th October 1965: Edward Evans aged 17 - Murdered

Arrested:
Brady 7th October 1965
Hindley 11th October 1965

Trial:
27th April 1966

Convicted:
6th May 1966

Died:
Hindley 16th November 2002


Please feel free to leave any astrological insights.


Good wishes


Bob
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  #29  
Unread 04-12-2007, 06:33 PM
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Dear Lord Bob,I honestly didn't see this coming!I had no idea who the two of them were until I read the description.What a horrible thing.I can't even think more about it.Please chose someone a little bit "lighter" for your next mystery chart.

And I though he was a philosopher.I couldn't have been more wrong.
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  #30  
Unread 04-12-2007, 08:18 PM
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Composite chart, to Bob

Bob,

You said:
Quote:
...a duo that picked up the label of ‘The Moors Murderers’ Ian Brady and Myra Hindley...Together they coaxed...As the records show, before we met my criminal activities had been primarily mercenary. Afterwards, a duality of motivation developed...
I think a composite chart would be more appropriate for this analysis. The birth chart is the chart of the person by themself, acting by themself. When they start to work with another person, the individual energy goes away and the composite energy is born.

Compositely,

Tim

P.S. Please post the birth information for both people so we can also do a composite chart for them.
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Last edited by wilsontc; 04-12-2007 at 08:35 PM.
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  #31  
Unread 04-12-2007, 09:13 PM
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Hi Lissa,

There are several reasons for using this person as a first chart. We all focus on the good, and for the most part we try to only notice the 'positive' traits when delineating a chart. As in life good and bad do exist and deserve equal observation. Let me give a small example why understanding life's darker sides are just as important. Suppose you have an elderly relative who needs live in care and you were able to erect their chart, by spotting the warning signs it may be possible to avert some punishment or even death that our loved one might suffer. There are many signs in Brady's chart that show how his disturbed maltreatment of all Gods animals would be likely to manifest.

I need to jump to Tim's comments now:

Quote:
Quote; Tim:
Frisian,

I think the chart shows the potential for the person and not the actuality. So when we don't know what a person did with their chart energies chart, it is very difficult to guess how their energies might come out or did come out.
To a certain extent I do agree that in many cases it might be difficult to show how a person may conduct themselves. However, in ancient times astrology was able to predict just these sorts of things. Valens for example has a system that would show how eminent a person might be in their lifetime. Another system could show to what class a person was born into. Yet another system would show criminal tendencies. Again, I would agree that there would be some interpretive difficulties which would make some charts harder to validate than others but, I have applied many of these techniques with a fair amount of success to people from all walks of life.

Quote:
Quote;Tim:
For example, the "spiritual" energy you mention has tremendous potential and is easily abused. On one side its associated with mysticism, drugs, alcoholism, etc. On the other its associated with sloth, laziness, etc. Making a "spiritual" path requires the person to actually work to develop their spiritual potential...not to simply take the much easier escapist path.
I agree there can be a fine line between the two extremes, even both at the same time; sinner and saint etc. The way I see it; one has to have a disposition towards being able to commit atrocities which to illustrate I would paraphrase what many astrologers have quoted and believe myself. "Everything that can or will happen in a person's life is written in the natal chart." If it is not in the nativity it cannot or will not happen. Would you agree with this Tim?

Let me give a brief understanding of how I would approach an investigation into criminal behaviour.

1. Natal disposition of planets that are very strong but tainted towards power, manipulation and control. The basic natal strength of the character.
2. Thought is the basis for all action. I would look to see what occupied the mind of the individual.
3. Mercury is a significator of the mind, the left side (logical side) of the brain in general. Is the person logical; is their mind influenced by negative emotions.
4. Jupiter is significator of ones moral code; what sort of moral code does the native have. Jupiter also shows our connection with our own personal God. Is he a God fearing Jupiter or predisposed to not give a monkey's?
5. What self control does the nativity show; Saturn would reveal the answer to this.
6. Mercury afflicted by Mars has been described as a criminal inclination for thousands of years, and still holds true today in my experience.
7. Severe emotional and/or mental disturbance generally.
8. Actions, ambition and drive.

These are just a few of the notes I would make on first investigation of a nativity. Now, I am not saying that any one of these traits would show this type of behaviour but, if each added up to the other it would be a pretty safe judgement to say this person would commit crimes. The Hellenistic 'Lot' list also gives indications for being confined for crime as opposed to being confined due to ill health.

Quote:
Quote; Tim:
And so people frequently fall off the spiritual path: they become drunks, dopers, fanatics, etc. This does not mean that the chart energy showed that they were going to become these things, it simply showed that these were all easier choices for them than doing what is best for them and others. For there IS a right way and a wrong way to use chart energy: self or other empowerment use of our chart energy is the right way, and self or other destructive use of our chart energy is the wrong way. So Mother Theresa, Ghandi, etc. used their "spiritual" energy the right way: helping and uplifting themselves and those around them. While Charles Manson, Hitler, etc. used their "spiritual" energy the wrong way: to try to become gods and crush everyone and everything in their path.
I agree whole-heartedly with almost everything here except for when you mention 'the chart energy' this is because in my opinion it takes many energies to say the same thing before it can be safely deduced.

Quote:
Quote; Tim:
One thing we CAN get from a chart of people on the wrong path is a sense of compassion and loss, that the great, powerful potential of the chart energy could be so abused and perverted...hurting the chart owner and everyone around them.
Yes, again I agree 100%. I am only adding that if we hypothetically had a system for criminal traits that had 100 enquiries and 98 came up supported then it would be safe to deduce it was the chart of a criminal. Of course, it could be wrong but it would be unlikely.

Quote:
Quote; Lissa:
Dear Lord Bob,I honestly didn't see this coming!I had no idea who the two of them were until I read the description.What a horrible thing.I can't even think more about it.Please chose someone a little bit "lighter" for your next mystery chart.
You did see this little snippet:
Quote:
The Moon is in debility and Venus isn't also in a very emotional sign,so the person was probably very guarded about his/hers emotions,perhaps even a little bit cold...
This is one sign where some debility is revealed. You also mentioned the 9th house concerning law as well as philosophy, another good observation.

I can honestly say that this is the only chart I will use of this nature, but I did want to turn everyone's head left & right because famous Generals etc may have 'some' of the negative traits highlighted here; Brady's chart has many of them which was why I chose it.

Quote:
Quote; Libra20:
OK, I was intimidated by all the good astrologers here and deleted my post at the beginning of this thread. However, looking back, I think I may have stumbled on something...
That is a shame you felt a little intimidated, I was hoping that all our opinions were equal, and in fact it turned out that way. Libra20, I wish you had left your post because it did show some insight which is hard to discuss now. Hopefully, the next 'and much brighter' chart will encourage you to go with it and don't criticize yourself, you done ok.

As did;
Frisiangal, wintersprite, flea, natasha, Tim and anyone whom I have overlooked. Looking back It was probably a very difficult chart because no-one would want to shout these indiscretions and Tim; what can I say, you even saw some of the best in this person...Nicely done, though I think you were aware that this person was a little hostile with that mention of Venus.

All in all you all done remarkably well with the little information I gave at the beginning. It gave me a good idea to give some information up front for the next chart. As this one was a little sad I will give a clue to the next chart; it will be the chart of a person completely opposite to this one.

What I was really hoping to achieve with this chart was the investigation of a disturbed mind. In my opinion, some are born but most seem to be created by society. I worked on a psychiatric evaluation team for a while so it is something I have experience with.

If anyone was offended by this chart/person I am truly sorry, that was not my intention at all.

I will explain some of my observations tomorrow.

Thankyou to all who took part, everyone showed a lot of courage and insight.


Good wishes to all,


Bob
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  #32  
Unread 04-12-2007, 10:46 PM
Bob
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Hi Tim,

Quote:
Quote:
I think a composite chart would be more appropriate for this analysis. The birth chart is the chart of the person by themself, acting by themself. When they start to work with another person, the individual energy goes away and the composite energy is born.

Compositely,

Tim

P.S. Please post the birth information for both people so we can also do a composite chart for them.
That is a very good idea Tim, I agree a composite would shed light on their partnership but I am not too sure I agree with your last sentence. For example; I have been married nearly thirty years now but I still maintain my individuality within our marriage, as does my wife. In any marriage only one person usually wears the pants, a composite would only show their combined energies acting as one, and not how the individuals are functioning within the partnership.

Anyway, the data I have for Myra is 23 July 1942 at 2.45am Manchester, England. The chart gives a Gemini ascendant, Sun/Mercury & Jupiter in Cancer...Brady wore the pants in this relationship without a doubt.

Maybe you could do a mini composite and I will do two mini natal charts?


Good wishes


Bob

P.S. Can I tempt anyone to add anything... I did have the misfortune of meeting Myra in person, I will add this event to my mini reading.
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  #33  
Unread 04-12-2007, 11:08 PM
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Very nice this thread !

I have a request though:
PLEASE add LILITH , as given at astro.com , here..... I can't do without (her).

Also: a bit of trial and error will be enough for me to know what date this person is born, and probably anyone could find the location as well, so my question is: why not put the birthdata here ????

Thanks.
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  #34  
Unread 04-13-2007, 03:30 AM
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

The date of may 1966 took me to the right/wrong place. It was a chart to play with your mind I think, which is why you chose it Bob, to challenge our perceptions. Challenge it did, so thankyou. I read a little of what Majorrie Orr wrote about him, saying that it was not an obviously psychotic chart. I wondered if you had any thoughts on that.

I wonder if the ancient charts still hold true for us today?? Are we the same or more able to change our destinies.

Love & Light
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  #35  
Unread 04-13-2007, 04:44 AM
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Choice, to Bob

Bob,

Quote:
The way I see it; one has to have a disposition towards being able to commit atrocities which to illustrate I would paraphrase what many astrologers have quoted and believe myself. "Everything that can or will happen in a person's life is written in the natal chart." If it is not in the nativity it cannot or will not happen. Would you agree with this Tim?
Bob, I think we can do ANYTHING. However, we can't do everything GREAT. So we can play music as much as we want...but if musical genius potential is not in our chart we can't be a musical genius. We will be OK, but not GREAT. This is my thought about free will and fate: we have potential to do anything (free will), but potential to only do some things very well (fate).

However, I do not believe that just because there are indications of something (good or bad) in the chart means that it will happen or we will cause it to happen. Somewhere in life we make a choice, based on the way we look at the world and the situation we live in. I refuse to excuse homicidical child torturers by saying "their chart made them do it."

Using this basis of belief is what has lead to some of the greatest genocides of history: these people are going to be evil...so let's kill them now. I know you didn't say that, but implying that someone has an "evil chart" or is "98% evil" is saying a similar thing. It says, "I can figure out who is good or bad in their life (based on their charts)." The next step is suggesting we do something about it in advance.

This way of looking at people completely eliminates the person's choice. Someone who is doing torturing and murdering has to have a point where they understand that this is NOT socially accepted behavior. That they are NOT behaving in a way which others would agree with. That they are deliberately destroying societal standards with their behavior.

While most of us will not be torturers or murderers, we sometimes do self-destructive things, because (unlike with the torturers or murderers) there is never anything in our life to indicate there is a different, better way. So because of our lack of self-awareness we continue to make the same mistakes.

So we need to develop our self-awareness. Once a person understands themselves and who they are then they have a choice to behave in a new way that better helps them grow and develop. I think astrology is a powerful tool to help develop this self-awareness and so I encourage everyone to understand themselves through their chart, so that they open themselves up to more choices and more options.

I do not judge who is good and bad based on their chart...but by their choices and actions.

Actively,

Tim
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  #36  
Unread 04-13-2007, 04:55 AM
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then and now, to flea

flea,

You asked:
Quote:
I wonder if the ancient charts still hold true for us today?? Are we the same or more able to change our destinies.
I think that in ancient times there were less choices. If you were a king your life was pretty well laid out in front of you. And if you were a commoner, no one cared about your life. Since there were few career choices for king, there were a limited number of things that could happen to them, so the stress in the chart indicated danger and easiness in the chart indicated opportunity.

Today life is much more complicated, and our choices are considerably greater than they were in ancient times. So we have many more possible ways to use our energies. In order to reach out to these new ways of using our energies, I use modern astrology which, while less precise than ancient astrology, allows considerably more possibilities for life development.

Looking at the present,

Tim
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  #37  
Unread 04-13-2007, 05:00 AM
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Composite, to Bob

Bob,

You said:
Quote:
...I am not too sure I agree with your last sentence. For example; I have been married nearly thirty years now but I still maintain my individuality within our marriage, as does my wife. In any marriage only one person usually wears the pants, a composite would only show their combined energies acting as one, and not how the individuals are functioning within the partnership...
These people clearly were not "individuals" in their action: they plotted together, stalked together, handed off victims to each other, etc. They did these atrocities TOGETHER. Ian's history indicates that he never did anything remotely approaching these horrors until he met this woman. Clearly no one "wore the pants" in this relationship...they each had one of their legs in the pants and wore them together.

Pantsing,

"Tim
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Unread 04-13-2007, 05:11 AM
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Composite chart, to Bob

Bob,

Attached below is the composite chart:


I looked at the composite chart: Mars (being, also anger) conjunct (energy is combined with) Ascendant (self) conjunct (distantly) Uranus (friends, also rebellion) trine (energy goes easily with) Leo (self-expression, also children) modifying Pluto (transformation, also power, sex) focused in the 4th house (home) conjunct (energy is combined with) IC (inner world). I think this describes the potential for the types of atrocities that you described. Note that in Ian's chart Mars doesn't connect with Pluto or Uranus, only in the composite chart is this powerful force supplied. Also, Gemini (sign of short trips) modifies Ascendant (self) in the composite chart, and the couple routinely took short trips with their car (also Gemini ruled). Moon (home) is very close to the 8th house (transformation, also power, sex).

In all this I do NOT say that because of this chart the couple did these atrocities, I just suggest that (if all the birth data is correct), because of the challenging combination of the RELATIONSHIP the couple was able to do horrible things that, separately, they couldn't have done.

Taking a trip to the dark side,

Tim
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Last edited by wilsontc; 04-16-2007 at 03:51 PM.
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  #39  
Unread 04-13-2007, 08:02 AM
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

At the risk of being called, oh I don't know... um, objective? ( I suspect it will be worse than that )

We really need to watch our own perceptions and projections. When Lissa wrote how she was wrong to see this person as a philosopher.... Lissa, I don't think you were necessarily wrong. First, we need to check our own definitions of what a philosopher really is. We see that Brady did take interest in Fascism and the Nazi regime. We also see where Hindley speaks of being indoctinated into Brady's world perceptions. In Brady's own words,

" She regarded periodic homicides as rituals of reciprocal innervation, marriage ceremonies theoretically binding us ever closer. As the records show, before we met my criminal activities had been primarily mercenary. Afterwards, a duality of motivation developed. Existential philosophy melded with the spirituality of death and became predominant. We experimented with the concept of total possibility."

This sounds like someone who has studied "darker" philosophies and applied them to his life and to that of his student, Hindley.

There was also mention that the work of Mother Teresa was "good" spiritual doing.....

Well...... Mother Teresa brought a foreign religion to a region. On the surface, yes, absolutly she has done good feeding and helping the poor. But there is an element of cohersion that these very people would now have to accept a foreign religion and with it, the inclusion of the opposition to birth control. How many more were born into poverty and relient on the church for their existance?

NOTE, I am not trying to start a religious discussion!!! I am just pointing out that we need to be a little more objective in what we believe is good or bad.
As Astrologer's it is not our place to judge, just interpret.

TK
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  #40  
Unread 04-13-2007, 07:19 PM
Bob
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Hi eveyone,

Quote:
Quote; starnoud:
I have a request though:
PLEASE add LILITH , as given at astro.com , here..... I can't do without (her).


Thankyou for your comments, I will include the Moon’s Apogee and Perigee for anyone who wishes to use them but I have to be careful about including too many points and parts in order to keep the chart easily readable for everyone. This has given me the idea of posting three or four natal charts of the same person in varying formats so we can each choose our preferred method, I just need to get the size right.

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Also: a bit of trial and error will be enough for me to know what date this person is born, and probably anyone could find the location as well, so my question is: why not put the birthdata here ????


You have highlighted a little dilemma here. There are those who will apply some trial and errors to obtain the birth date (location may be difficult to do though) which is fine, but if they publish it or hint very obviously at the chart owner I will have done a great deal of work for nothing. I have toyed with the idea of posting the birth data and giving a brief account of the persons history in order partially highlight the type of life the chart owner had, the feedback from all of you will help me find a good format that suits everybody. Thankyou for your input, I look forward to your future comments.

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Quote; Flea:
I wonder if the ancient charts still hold true for us today?? Are we the same or more able to change our destinies.


Thankyou for your kind remarks Flea. I think Tim has raised many of the points highlighting the differences between some of the destiny’s we may have had in ancient times compared to those we have in modern times (and given me about two hours work answering his observations…thanks Tim, lol). Along with Tim’s comments I would like to add a little of how I see the fate and free will concept in modern times. Do the charts still hold true for us today…Absolutely, the only differences are more choices and technological advances giving us greater scope. Are we more able to change our destiny’s…I would say that we do have more control over our destinations today, though I would add that our destiny’s are so tied into our health, wealth, place of birth, social status and a multitude of other considerations that although there may be more opportunities for us, we remain creatures of habit. It is these habits that probably define our fates more than anything else, as the old saying goes ‘if you stick your finger into a naked flame, don’t be surprised if you get burned.’ I have the firm belief that the more self aware one becomes, the more control one has over their ever-changing, variable destiny’s, kind of like a psychological alchemy.

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Quote; Tim:
Bob, I think we can do ANYTHING. However, we can't do everything GREAT. So we can play music as much as we want...but if musical genius potential is not in our chart we can't be a musical genius. We will be OK, but not GREAT. This is my thought about free will and fate: we have potential to do anything (free will), but potential to only do some things very well (fate).


I think we are both talking from the same page where in principle I agree with what you are saying. However, if I could example mentally retarded people, they cannot do ‘anything’ that is beyond their mental ability. There are many unfortunate folks who will need dressing, feeding etc for their whole life so their potential for doing anything is limited according to their ability; the same could be said for physical handicaps too. For example someone with no legs will never rival David Beckham because he would be lacking some vital equipment. It could be argued that false legs etc could allow ‘some’ football ability but that would be diversifying from the point that our abilities are deeply personal on thousands of levels that cannot just be switched on because we will them to. There are illnesses such as Dyslexia (I was sorely tempted to write ‘dislekseea’) where certain numbers and symbols become confused in the brain. It is within the grasp of psychological astrology to recognise cognitive flaws in the mental, emotional or spiritual nature of a troubled soul and then help the person reintegrate them harmoniously. In order to do this it is absolutely crucial that subjectivity (our personal ideals) be removed from the diagnosis wherever possible by cross-referencing our findings with each other (I am taking here about psychiatric evaluation in an institutional environment).

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However, I do not believe that just because there are indications of something (good or bad) in the chart means that it will happen or we will cause it to happen. Somewhere in life we make a choice, based on the way we look at the world and the situation we live in.


It is not ‘indications’ in a planet, house, aspect sense, it is the entire judgement after ‘all’ the facts have been considered. In your opinion was Ian Brady a ‘good’ or a ‘bad’ person? I would categorically state he was a ‘bad’ person, and many others would agree with me I am sure. Can this be seen in a nativity… Yes, if one is adept at reading a chart thoroughly. I would be more than happy for someone to give me 5 charts of saints and five charts of sinners; I will spot them with ease. Bare this in mind for a future game if you like. The reason I used Ian Brady’s chart is that it clearly shows a severely disturbed mind, harmful in many ways to himself and others. Not the ‘potential’, the absolute astrological prognosis that this person would harm others for his own pleasure. I expect you will disagree with this but that is fine, it does not make me think any less of you, and I’m sure you feel likewise. Our main difference here is that you believe it is not possible to tell how a person uses their energies and I say that when all the habits, repeating cycles and drives are fully assessed I believe it is possible in most cases.

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I refuse to excuse homicidical child torturers by saying "their chart made them do it."


As do I. In my opinion the stars do ‘not’ compel, neither do they impel, they merely reflect the actions of the earthly inhabitants in the sky. The stars do ‘not’ make anyone do anything but they do capture the essence of our soul and earthly qualities at our moment of birth. Some murderers are born, others are made, but the potential has to be there to start with.

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Using this basis of belief is what has lead to some of the greatest genocides of history: these people are going to be evil...so let's kill them now. I know you didn't say that, but implying that someone has an "evil chart" or is "98% evil" is saying a similar thing. It says, "I can figure out who is good or bad in their life (based on their charts)." The next step is suggesting we do something about it in advance.


Now Tim, you need to give yourself a little slap on the wrist. I take it one of your references here are to Hitler’s orders to kill the Jews? Beliefs to not cause genocides, people do. Do I think Hitler was bad…No; do I think he went over the top and had the power to do so…Yes. You might ask why would I think Brady was bad and Hitler not, this will have to wait until another time. I am not offended by your implication in the last two sentences above but, there is ‘no’ next step…Who on earth does have all the answers? The next step in my mind is putting people in suitable jobs, giving them suitable teachers, finding suitable partners, giving them the necessary tools to enhance their future and much more; is this not what psychological astrology tries to do?

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This way of looking at people completely eliminates the person's choice.


I don’t see how you came to this conclusion, people are being judged good and bad every day without their choices being affected. What you seem to be implying is that astrology would be used universally to control everybody’s lives, personally I think no matter how much astrology becomes accepted that will never happen. Judges choose, probationary services judge, social services judge, parole board’s judge. How would you feel about sitting on a parole board and allowing a convicted child killer to go free because ‘you thought’ it would be safe to free him. After which he goes straight out, buys a gun and starts picking off children in a school yard. Now, go back to the parole hearing where now you have astrological skills and this persons chart. If you could then be fairly sure this person is going to be the cause of much strife, would this be a reason to use the chart as help, and keep him locked up?

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While most of us will not be torturers or murderers, we sometimes do self-destructive things, because (unlike with the torturers or murderers) there is never anything in our life to indicate there is a different, better way. So because of our lack of self-awareness we continue to make the same mistakes.


Are you implying that we all have the traits or the psychology to torture and murder children? I see a huge difference between people who steal to live and feed their loved ones and those who are disturbed enough to torture and kill, this takes a special kind of person that is ‘not’ in all of us.

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So we need to develop our self-awareness. Once a person understands themselves and who they are then they have a choice to behave in a new way that better helps them grow and develop. I think astrology is a powerful tool to help develop this self-awareness and so I encourage everyone to understand themselves through their chart, so that they open themselves up to more choices and more options.


I absolutely agree 100%

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I do not judge who is good and bad based on their chart...but by their choices and actions.


In training for psychology and psychiatric degrees the students evaluate each other, they are often amazed to realise their own shortcomings can be so easily seen by a trained eye. With no disrespect intended Tim, have you ever had a psychological evaluation, if not, have you ever had you chart ‘fully’ investigated from a psychological perspective to highlight your own areas where you could improve? The reason I ask is that before we judge others in any shape or form we should know where our own thinking or judgement may be impaired by subjectivity. There are several areas I avoid giving judgement because the activation of certain stressful memory engrams can induce poor judgement. I am also very careful about activating them in others because ‘self awareness’ cannot be handled by everyone, this is why we have so many drunks and drug addicts. Self awareness deals with the conscious and the unconscious. In Jung’s terminology the 12th house deals with the collective unconscious, the entire knowledge of mankind thrown into one big unconscious soup. There is not a mind on this planet that could handle that amount of knowledge.


I will have to address your other posts later because I have some engagements this evening.


Best regards


Bob
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  #41  
Unread 04-13-2007, 11:32 PM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Hi,

I would like to applaud Wintersprite's insight and her suggestion in message 8 that the chart showed criminal tendancies, which Bob responded to in a positive fashion. As Starnoud said, with a bit of trial and error it was possible to work out the birthdate. This is what I did in order to find the position of Black Moon Lilith. When it turned out to be in Sagittarius (in 8th?) and Jupiter in the 10th was harshly aspected, I followed Wintersprite's idea. I was thinking in terms of Manson or Son of Sam. The major problem was that, using Porphyry, Uranus was the only planet in the 12th house (incarceration) and this didn't seem to fit 'criminal tendancies', although 'hidden perversities' came a close second. My data base has a criminal section. Don't ask me why I looked at Brady; I don't know. But what did clinch the Placidus house system yet again for me was that Saturn, ruler M.C., also went firmly into the 12th house. Imprisonment. This is why I put forward the suggestion that Saturn in Pisces may not necessarily refer to 'spirituality' if Earth is largely present in the natal chart.

Without Wintersprite's observation I, personally, would never have suspected a criminal in the Porphyry chart provided. (S)he also hit the nail on the head with 'the Lord of the 8th (criminality) is in the 10th'. Congrats. Wintersprite (pity there's no applause emoticon).

Frisiangal.
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  #42  
Unread 04-14-2007, 05:40 AM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

It's as well I missed out on this as I'm particularly interested in the nativities of violent criminals, and I may have known who this was.

I take it that you approach astrology from a traditional perspective Bob? I'm so glad you're here.

I'll attempt to take a look at the next chart using some traditional techniques, but I'm a bit hesistant with natal astrology and require practice, so this is the kind of thing I need. I can't seem to get myself off the ground with natal analysis, I identify the ingredients, and can mix them together to a certain extent, but have trouble actually baking the cake, which might come down to lack of confidence, and knowledge, thus far.

I'm can understand why you hesitate to provide the chart data. It won't be long before someone drops a bomb of a hint and gives it away, this has always happened when I've tried something similar, and then there are always those who will Google the data and then find out all about them and base their interpretation on this. I suppose this is lack of faith in others, but there you go.

I think all the information that would be necessary for the next chart is the person's sex, their year of birth and their nationality.

Before you post the next chart, might you offer us your own analysis of this one? I would be interested to see how you go about delineating a nativity.
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  #43  
Unread 04-14-2007, 09:19 AM
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Lissa Lissa is offline
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

It's so true-when I looked at the chart,I simply assumed I was looking at the chart of a "good" person.I didn't even think the chart could belong to a criminal.When looking at someone's chart,we usually assume the person is using the chart in the most positive way,without letting the darker side of it take control...well at least I do.Although I really agree that people don't simply into turn into murderers just like that;the birth chart would show the person's inclinations and then transits would do the rest.

Honestly,I think this was a very clever choice for a first mistery chat.I think no one was expecting something like this(I know I wasn't).I have some interest in criminology and I'm considering becoming a Psychologhist specialized in criminology,so I obviously think this is a very interesting thread.Reading the descriptions of some of the things he did to those children were the only thing that creeped me out.I think it would be very interesting to know your own considerations about Brady's chart.
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  #44  
Unread 04-14-2007, 10:05 AM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

It can be an interesting exercise to explore a chart, especially one's own, and to consider what the most evil possible manifestation of that chart could be, and then, to consider what the most saintly expression of that chart could be. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle, while clarifying what our highest possible and lowest possible manifestations of our destiny could be, our most demonic and angelic expression.
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  #45  
Unread 04-14-2007, 06:28 PM
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wintersprite1 wintersprite1 is offline
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal

Without Wintersprite's observation I, personally, would never have suspected a criminal in the Porphyry chart provided. (S)he also hit the nail on the head with 'the Lord of the 8th (criminality) is in the 10th'. Congrats. Wintersprite (pity there's no applause emoticon).

Frisiangal.
Draco said it best in the post above....

"The truth is usually somewhere in the middle, while clarifying what our highest possible and lowest possible manifestations of our destiny could be, our most demonic and angelic expression." Draco


I started studying Astrology as a teenager, when all that was available was whatever the public library stocked in reading material. I learned Astrology thru the entire series of Alan Leo. His work is fatalistic and very extreme. So having that knowledge as my base, I always look for extreme possibilities first.
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  #46  
Unread 04-15-2007, 06:35 AM
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Wintersprite,

I am glad you said you look for extremes first. I have the lord of the eighth in the 10th, and have pluto/uranus in 4th on the 5th cusp. So I have some of the not so good stuff in my chart. All this manifests in different ways, one of which is a true extreme on the edges of humanity.

I must admit that it has given me cause for thought, and a little uneasiness has crept in. What am I capable of?? How much is my awareness of my life and the implications of my choices. How far do unconcious drives take me??

Still pondering that one.

Love & Light Flea
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  #47  
Unread 04-15-2007, 08:18 PM
Bob
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Hi everyone,


Quote:
Quote: Frisiangal
I would like to applaud Wintersprite's insight and her suggestion in message 8 that the chart showed criminal tendancies, which Bob responded to in a positive fashion.


Lol, Frisiangal. I thought the hint I gave may have been a little obvious. I did not want to mislead anyone, and when the opportunity came (I nearly done it on your post) to open the door I took it. I think you and wintersprite1 were both first at suggesting criminal tendencies, though there was one or two close references by some of the others.

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As Starnoud said, with a bit of trial and error it was possible to work out the birthdate.


I would have done this myself because all (probably like many of you here) I like to check the chart is calculated correctly and to include many of the parts I personally work with. Astrology does have a habit of attracting some quite adept and persistent investigators so I sort of guessed some folks would google and goggle until they got it, lol. However, it seemed everybody gave their honest appraisal based upon the facts as observed by each of you/us which made for a very interesting thread. It was great to see everyone using their own techniques, and even our young astrologers were adding to and joining in without fear of reprisal.

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When it turned out to be in Sagittarius (in 8th?) and Jupiter in the 10th was harshly aspected, I followed Wintersprite's idea. I was thinking in terms of Manson or Son of Sam.


Well spotted by the pair of you, it took a certain bravery to be the first to deviate from the everything is good predictions which we are all used to by trying to help others see the light through the darkness.

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The major problem was that, using Porphyry, Uranus was the only planet in the 12th house (incarceration) and this didn't seem to fit 'criminal tendancies', although 'hidden perversities' came a close second. My data base has a criminal section. Don't ask me why I looked at Brady; I don't know. But what did clinch the Placidus house system yet again for me was that Saturn, ruler M.C., also went firmly into the 12th house. Imprisonment. This is why I put forward the suggestion that Saturn in Pisces may not necessarily refer to 'spirituality' if Earth is largely present in the natal chart.


Criminals charts make great study because they usually have a lot going on in their charts, they also often have a planet totally unaspected quite often; I have thousands of them in several databases. One of the things I was hoping to see was some folks noticing that while a planet has a good or bad attributes, they are predisposed to have a certain ‘natural’ form of expression according to how well the planets qualities blend with the sign it is in. Saturn in Pisces (especially this degree) is a poor place for him, unless he is assisted in some fashion his expression would most naturally be negative, a fact some people find hard to understand. A car with a problem starter-motor will always give trouble starting until it is repaired or replaced; it does not matter that the starter-motor has free will to act as it would like, if it is broke it can only act in that way. Well spotted!

Before any of you who are still learning about planets in signs etc rush through your charts thinking ‘ oh gawd, I have a Pisces Saturn’, Saturn only has the tools to be bad in that sign. If he does not disposit important planets who rule houses that could be problematic, and has no good connection to any other planet, and a sufficient enough placement as to suggest his malefic qualities are dominant then your Pisces Saturn could be and probably is fine.

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Quote: Draco
I take it that you approach astrology from a traditional perspective Bob? I'm so glad you're here.


Hi Draco, thankyou for the welcome. I did originally start out learning modern psychological astrology w…ay back in 81 but towards the end of the nineties I started to investigate where all my modern astrology idols learned from. That put me on a path that showed just how brilliant, complex yet simple and revealing astrology once was, I wanted in so I set about devouring any traditional, classic and Hellenistic astrology books, papers or general info I could get my hands on. I have never looked back, it gets more interesting each day, even after nearly thirty years.

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I'll attempt to take a look at the next chart using some traditional techniques, but I'm a bit hesistant with natal astrology and require practice, so this is the kind of thing I need. I can't seem to get myself off the ground with natal analysis, I identify the ingredients, and can mix them together to a certain extent, but have trouble actually baking the cake, which might come down to lack of confidence, and knowledge, thus far.


Thanks Draco, it will be good to have you involved. Personally I have only ever been interested in natal astrology, and there has been several occasions where I thought I had it all together, boy was I wrong. I look back now and wonder how I the heck made it work without the knowledge I have today, but that’s astrology for you I suppose. knowing you have a good interest and knowledge of horary astrology yourself, this will advance your natal skills no end if you can learn to know which of those techniques you can apply to natal work, and which are strictly for horary. That may be where you get your uncertainty from (a quick check just told me you will be 25 this year). From what I have enjoyed reading in your posts you have a pretty darn good knowledge and it will be my pleasure if I can help you fine tune your understanding of natal work. If I had any advice for you, it would be to familiarize yourself with all the major classic (not classical) astrology texts, reading and re-reading them until you could practically recite them. Time and practice will do the rest. Hopefully, the mystery charts should help because they are not about being right or wrong, just the sharing of styles and ideas.

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Before you post the next chart, might you offer us your own analysis of this one? I would be interested to see how you go about delineating a nativity.


I certainly will my friend because that was one of the points of my exercise, everyone can throw all their styles into the foray and I will summarise at the end. Time permitting, I was hoping to be able to have a discussion about each chart where we can ask each other questions on delineations and techniques. Until the age of around fifteen I was considered to be dyslexic and/or illiterate, astrology allowed me to rebuild myself and unlock doorways within my psyche that allowed me to learn and retain information voraciously. I suppose I am living proof of the capability of astrology to enhance or unlock our abilities in what many people thought was a hopeless case. Upon learning these things I wanted to give them to everybody so they too could rise from the ashes and turn a certain

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Quote: Lissa
Honestly,I think this was a very clever choice for a first mistery chat.I think no one was expecting something like this(I know I wasn't ).I have some interest in criminology and I'm considering becoming a Psychologhist specialized in criminology,so I obviously think this is a very interesting thread.


Thankyou for you kind words Lissa, you have given a very good account of what I was hoping a thread like this would do.

Quote:
Quote: Draco
It can be an interesting exercise to explore a chart, especially one's own, and to consider what the most evil possible manifestation of that chart could be, and then, to consider what the most saintly expression of that chart could be. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle, while clarifying what our highest possible and lowest possible manifestations of our destiny could be, our most demonic and angelic expression.


Very nicely put Draco, that is exactly how I look at it. In my opinion people should not worry about silly indiscretions or some of the things that may have had to do in order to survive in a tough world. People like Brady are in a class of their own.

Quote:
Quote: wintersprite1
I started studying Astrology as a teenager, when all that was available was whatever the public library stocked in reading material. I learned Astrology thru the entire series of Alan Leo. His work is fatalistic and very extreme. So having that knowledge as my base, I always look for extreme possibilities first.


Though I have gone off Leo a little since I looked into his peers, he did have an unmistakable impact on modern astrology, and quite a good repertoire which I’m sure kick-started many of today’s best astrologers. It was clear you had a good knowledge of astrology and I have since gone and read all your back posts. Thankyou for joining in with this thread wintersprite1 and I hope you will continue to benefit us all with your interesting insights.


Quote:

Quote: Flea
I am glad you said you look for extremes first. I have the lord of the eighth in the 10th, and have pluto/uranus in 4th on the 5th cusp. So I have some of the not so good stuff in my chart. All this manifests in different ways, one of which is a true extreme on the edges of humanity.


I must admit that it has given me cause for thought, and a little uneasiness has crept in. What am I capable of?? How much is my awareness of my life and the implications of my choices. How far do unconcious drives take me??

Still pondering that one.

Love & Light Flea


Flea, forgive me for what you might think is patronising you here but because I do not know your depth of knowledge just yet, it is most definitely not my intention to patronize you or anyone else. However, I would like to ease your mind on one or two of your statements. First I would like to congratulate you on getting some personal benefit from the thread; that is/was its whole purpose. Second, your “not so good stuff” may only appear like that on the surface, below the surface there is a real probability that those not so good things are working very well for you. What are you capable of – By simply asking yourself this question you are seeking to understand and implement more quality in your life; hence what you are capable of must ultimately be beneficial not just for yourself, but others too. How far do your unconscious drives take you – As far as you want them to, to paraphrase Tim, the limits are endless; within the confines of your build you will be able to make life very much more pleasant for you, no matter how well off you already are physically, financially, emotionally or spiritually. Perhaps someone could source me the biblical phrase “ask and it shall be given” This is how I see the unconscious.


Thanks again to everybody


Good wishes


Bob

P.S. following this post is a small look at the obvious traits in Brady’s chart. During the week I will publish a thorough investigation into the intricacies and workings of his mind. Any questions I will answer as soon as I can but please be patient, I am burning the candle at both ends at the moment.
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  #48  
Unread 04-15-2007, 08:53 PM
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Re: A Natal chart for fun.

Here is a short delineation of the obvious traits that stand out in Brady’s natal chart.

What we have are four planets (including the two lights) in Capricorn, Jupiter in Aquarius and Mars/Saturn in Pisces. The ascendant is Taurus and the Mc accompanying the four planets in Capricorn. There is a lack of planets in fire signs suggesting a kind of unconscious compulsion, only one planet in air with absolutely no direct contact with any other planets in the chart (totally unconnected). This means Jupiter has no rules or boundaries imposed by a connection with any other planets, this shows that the principle of God (whatever that meant to him) had no place in his life leading to possible sociopathic and or narcissistic tendencies. In short he does not know when to quit, has no God fearing qualities and cared very little about the law. A strong Saturn could have done much to offset this but he is peregrine himself, and in a water sign. A quick word about the dragons head (north node) in Sagittarius in the 8th house; this shows that one of his missions in this lifetime is to explore life through the 8th house and all its significations of war, violence, nazi’ism and other people goods/money. The north nodes dispositor Jupiter is unconnected to any planets and this shows ‘the’ primary area where he had no boundaries. No wonder he was fascinated with the Nazi regime, war, crime, violence, mental control and manipulation, it practically jumps out from the page.

Stellium’s are often confusing for people to understand but I will show one method of how a stellium can be delineated.

Starting with the Sun in Capricorn, we need to look first to see whether the Sun’s qualities of hot & dry fit in harmony with Capricorns cold and dry nature. With a Sun in Capricorn we get swings between hot & cold mixed with some excessive dryness, far be it from me to highlight how many Capricorns have a ‘dry’ sense of humour, a ‘dry’ personality, or (for that matter) ‘dry’ skin etc. Straight away we see that there is some conflict with the Sun’s need or desire to be free to act and Saturn’s self-limiting or self-restraining qualities. Something some of you will probably not have heard of is that a planet needs to be able to see his home to be able to function properly, in the Sun’s case he needs to be able to see the sign of Leo by Ptolemaic aspect, if he cannot see his home he seems to go out and start things that he cannot complete or bring home. If he has no direct contact with his home, it is important that he can see or contact his ‘sect’ partners which are Jupiter and Saturn. The signs of Leo and Capricorn have absolutely ‘nothing’ at all in common, in fact you could say they are enemies of one another, this is probably one of the reasons a lot of Capricorns have such a hard time. The internal battle of ‘push forward’ verses ‘hold back’ is probably one of the reasons for their stress related skin complaints. I would just like to make it known that just because the Sun is peregrine in Capricorn it does not make a bad or negative person, but it does make it possible by position.

Now, over to the Moon, (also in Capricorn). The Moon is cool and moist while Saturn is cold and dry. Here we have excessive coldness with alternating moist and dryness showing that the emotions are frozen or rigid and not really compatible with this sign Capricorn. Everything the Moon stands for Saturn hates, or at least sees as a weakness. Nothing turns Saturn off more than gushy emotions, instability, lack of ambition or not being capable of providing for ones self or standing on ones own two feet. Every time the Moon wants to show her love or emotions Saturn will find some way of psychologically blocking it, usually through fear or making them feel stupid. Unlike the Capricorn/Leo incompatibility the Moon can see her home from Capricorn, though it is only through an opposition with others. The Moon in Capricorn person usually feels like a fish out of water because they have to hold on tight to those emotive needs of the Moon for fear of looking or feeling stupid. This gives those Capricorn Moon people a hard time personally because holding back emotions takes an acute self awareness and a great deal of psychic energy which leaves them feeling heavy or physically drained. Again I would like to make clear that the Moon in Capricorn by itself is not really a major problem, but it does have the tools to be.

Mercury I will skip for now because I want to do a more thorough investigation of this elusive character after we look at Venus.

Venus is warm and moist and Saturn is cold and dry so we have a complete contrast in their basic temperaments in a similar manner to the Moon. She (venus) is sociable, Saturn is antisocial; Venus seeks pleasure and happiness whereas Saturn is only concerned with duty and ambition, to him, happiness can be bought. Venus in Capricorn has to act according to Saturn’s rules and regulations which can make her a little stiff, stand-offish, socially shy and more concerned about what the relationship can do for her, sacrificing love for position. Cool, calculating and reserved can be very appealing to some but it is an uncomfortable position for Venus to be in because she is having to sacrifice love for duty and sociability for social standards and so on. Usually this Venus would be reluctant to jump into a relationship for fear of getting it wrong, but once one has started she will expect total loyalty, and commitment must be a possibility or Venus will look for it elsewhere. Venus is the significator for money, wealth and possessions and operating through Saturn she would show a certain frugality not easily parting with her possessions. She will also care about her appearance a great deal, her clothes must be of the highest quality affordable, socially acceptable, respectable looking and conservative, and this is because she herself is impressed by these things when she operates through Saturn.

The next step is to assess the planets of the stellium with each other in the same manner as above.

First we have the hot and dry Sun, with a cool and moist Moon, in a sign that has a cold and dry ruler (Saturn), and as you might suspect these temperaments also do not fit happily together. From a basic temperamental perspective both the lights (sun & moon) have equal power generally speaking, but if the chart is diurnal (as this one is) the Sun has more strength, except in some very rare configurations. In modern astrology it is said that conjunct planets combine their energies, but in ancient times planets could only conjoin their energies if they had something in common; like a kind of middle ground where they could both share the same qualities through the dispositing planet or through dual rulership such as Aries/Scorpio (mars) or Taurus/Libra (venus). According to Jean Baptiste Morin, Ptolemy stated in book 3 of the Tetrabiblos ‘disorders of the soul’ that Venus in a feminine sign in a male horoscope or Mars in a masculine sign in a female horoscope produce inclinations and desires that run contrary to nature, if other conditions support this it indicates severely corrupt and deviant carnal desires. I have not mentioned combustion until now, and this is because I was addressing the planets in the sign (Capricorn), but now we are looking at the planets relative to each other. When the Moon is combust one of the things weakened by the condition is the mind, this is because the Moon has not had time to take the light of the Sun, process the information and then bring it back for assimilation in preparation for the next cycle. The qualities the Moon represents are somewhat annihilated, care, compassion and nurture are all absent, little care and attention was received as a child, and therefore the attitude is adopted that children do not deserve care and attention except for narcissistic ego stroking gratification. The combustion of the Moon shows the Moon to be conditioned by the Sun; the Moon rules the 3rd house and so the thinking process is totally conditioned by the Sun’s desires; as the Sun rules the 4th house this conditioning took place at home. Talk about repeating cycles, this is exactly where he tortured and killed most of his victims. This position also shows a dominant father overpowering the mother which was observed by Brady as a very young child (this may not have been the actual father present during Brady’s early months), this witnessing started a negative mentally deviant pre-programming to Brady very early in life which was to act as a catalyst in his later years. It also shows his well deserved condition at the end of his life…

Now we get to the hot and dry Sun with a warm and moist Venus in a sign ruled by the cold and dry Saturn; now we have an excess of dryness and an excess of heat. Venus has dignity in Capricorn by triplicity, and ordinarily Venus in Capricorn is not an especially bad place for her to be in, if the chart is diurnal (as this one is) but unfortunately, she is also combust. This negative conditioning of Venus means that her pleasant, social, friendly and fun loving side of her nature was overpowered by the will of the Sun. This had the effect of adding the icy cold temperament of both the lights being in Capricorn to her otherwise soft and gentle nature. In short she had to ask Saturn’s permission before she could act, and this is extremely important because Venus is the ruler of Brady’s ascendant. Here the soft nature of Venus is totally replaced by the overbearing nature of the extremely controlling, domineering Sun in Capricorn. I have been trying to stay away from Mercury for the reasons above, but now it becomes unavoidable because Venus is in Partile conjunction to a very poorly placed, negative and retrograde Mercury. Venus (the ascendant ruler) also rules the 6th house in Brady’s chart which shows what kind of afflictions we may be subject to in our lives. Her partile conjunction to Mercury is highlighting mental health problems is strongly related to sex and partnerships including friends, that will bring him into conflict with the law (9th house) and/or the authorities (Mc). Saturn rules both the 9th and 10th houses using whole sign houses so all of these things are still applicable without using the Mc. Because the Sun is overpowering Venus he has the effect of turning the significations of Venus and the houses ruled by Venus into areas of vice and corruption which is shown through the ascendant and his means of making a living. I believe there is enough information here to show a family of criminals (if one reads between the lines) and I add the suggestion that Brady was conceived through the raping of his mother. Actually I will rephrase that to; I am 99.9% certain that Brady was conceived by being raped by a lone male while under the influence of drink or drugs but, it is not ‘just’ through the little snippets of information given here, it is supported in many ways through the entire chart.

Before my next post (in a couple of days probably) giving a thorough investigation of Mercury in Brady’s chart, I just want to touch on the effects of Brady’s combust Mercury. With the Sun overpowering Mercury, he is taking control of the significations of Mercury itself and turning the areas Mercury rules into vice and corruption. Mercury rules the 2nd house indicating that he made a living (or attempted to) through crime involving the theft of goods or money, again with the emphasized 9th house it was certain to bring him into conflict with the law. The other house Mercury rules in Brady’s chart is the 5th house of children, sex and pleasure which also brings him into conflict with the law. The overpowering of children by a dominant Sun/male should also be noted. What Brady inherited was rotten to the core, generations of abuse led him to partake in the repeating cycles of his forefathers.

I am sure you will all be aware that I have barely scratched the surface of Brady’s chart and yet we are able to get the picture of a highly corrupt, torturous soul. Because this behaviour was so obvious in his life, it would be just as obvious in his natal chart, which it is. The stars did not impel Brady into such atrocities, neither did they compel him to do the things he done; it was his own choice to act in this manner; the stars merely reflected his actions in his nativity which is what astrology does.

Because I am pressed for time I may not be able to go through all the posts everybody made as I would like to do. Off the top of my head, wintersprite1, frisiangal and Tim came very close to recognising this soul as a negative one. I was hard pressed not to give too much away. Libra20 sadly deleted their post which was a shame because you got philosophy spot on, it was just a warped philosophy coupled with Brady seeing himself as a God that made it hard for you to spot. I am fairly certain most, if not all of you did recognise some areas or traits that were spot on and I will do my best to go through them with you all. It may take a while though. All posters deserve a pat on the back for their bravery in posting and for their own insights into a very difficult chart. I will make additions to the post as and when I get time.

Thankyou to all contributors for making this a good exercise for people to be able to look back on and maybe learn from. I will make a second post this evening, and this time I will add some info into the chart owner. What I will say for now is the next chart will be of what I would call a good person who either directly helped people and/or benefited humanity in a positive way.

One final note:
It is quite possible to have all the placements mentioned here and still be a good person; for example, these placements in different houses might have shown a warder in a children’s prison. Another major factor would be the dispositor of all those Capricorn planets; if Saturn had been well dignified most of the negative traits would probably have remained as passing negative thoughts under the fine control of a positive Saturn. Unfortunately, in this nativity, Saturn is very poorly placed and offers no help in controlling the negative effects of the Capricorn placements.


Good wishes


Bob


Note for; Libra20, Yoi, I have not forgotten you and will answer your PM’s very soon.
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Unread 04-16-2007, 03:52 PM
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wilsontc wilsontc is offline
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Posted composite chart

To all,

I have posted the composite chart for Ian and his wife in my original posting about the composite chart.

Updating,

Tim
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