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Modern Astrology For discussions on Modern Astrology only. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists. Specifically it relies on psychological, evolutionary, karmic, and non-western interpretation approaches and includes Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, and non-Ptolemaic aspects. The focus is more on psychological chart interpretation instead of prediction.)


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  #1  
Unread 04-03-2018, 12:21 PM
Kernix Kernix is offline
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Question about the outer planets

Does anyone know where the keywords for Uranus, Neptune and Pluto came from? Were they taken from Saturn \ Aquarius, Jupiter \ Pisces, Mars \ Scorpio?

Also, who got to actually name the planets after they were discovered? Did they observe them first and then gave them names that corresponded to those observations? Were the people who discovered them into astrology and named them accordingly?

Hope I'm making sense with the questions. I'm trying to understand these planets in my own chart and the keywords I use seem "okay" when analyzing my chart for them, but they don't seem to resonate strongly - maybe it's the "generational" thing.

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  #2  
Unread 04-04-2018, 03:56 AM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

Cough, ahem. This is the modern astrology board. We don't have to debate the legitimacy of the modern outer planets. Modern astrologers use them successfully.

The history of the integration of these planets into modern astrology in the English-speaking world really comes from the few early 20th century popularizers like Alan Leo, who wrote popular astrology textbooks that went into multiple printings.

You might be interested in:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ur_aq.html Look also at the links to other Uranus articles on this page. Skyscript is actually a website dedicated to traditional astrology, but it takes an open view towards modern astrology, as well.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/neptune2.html

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pluto2.html

Beginning with the discovery of Uranus in 1781, astronomers across Europe were in commnication with one another. The discoverer or another astronomer would propose a name, and after a while, it would become commonly used.

Pluto was discovered in 1930, identified as a planet, but astronomers "demoted" it to dwarf planet status in 2006. However, modern astrologers continue to use it as a planet, mostly because it works so well.

Today the naming of new heavenly bodies is done by a professional astronomical society, the International Astronomical Union. https://www.iau.org/public/themes/naming/

If you want to post your chart, we can discuss meanings of the outer planets in it.

Please also keep in mind that astrology contains the good, the bad, and the ugly. I can recommend some good books, if you're interested.
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Unread 04-04-2018, 02:20 PM
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Modern astrology only, to All

All,

Please discuss MODERN astrology in the Modern Astrology Forum. That means that the existence and use of Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in astrology are taken as a given and are NOT to be debated. Discussion of use of traditional techniques in modern astrology is also NOT allowed. If you want to discuss any intersection between modern astrology and traditional astrology do so on the Natal Astrology Forum.

Back to Modern Astrology,

Tim
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  #4  
Unread 04-04-2018, 03:06 PM
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Re: Modern astrology only, to All

But I don't understand. All the OP is doing is asking how/where the planets used in Modern Astrology got their names from. How in the world does that not belong on the Modern Astrology forum and why is that being seen as a debate?

Why can any "intersection between modern astrology and traditional astrology" not be tolerated on the Modern Astrology forum? I mean honestly. With all due respect, there cannot be such razor sharp (imposed) cut offs and divisions between the two - because that is what is not factual.
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  #5  
Unread 04-04-2018, 06:26 PM
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Re: Modern astrology only, to All

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
But I don't understand. All the OP is doing is asking how/where the planets used in Modern Astrology got their names from. How in the world does that not belong on the Modern Astrology forum and why is that being seen as a debate?

Why can any "intersection between modern astrology and traditional astrology" not be tolerated on the Modern Astrology forum? I mean honestly. With all due respect, there cannot be such razor sharp (imposed) cut offs and divisions between the two - because that is what is not factual.
Hi aquarius7000,
You may have looked into this thread AFTER several copied long posts from Paul and Dr. Farr submitted by JUPITERASC re; traditional techniques have been deleted. The slight cough in Waybread's post?
I have to admit that, when looking in this morning, I could not understand why the posts had been allowed in the mod. section.

I don't think it was the O.P's query causing the confusion but the trad. traditions trying to get a quick and sneaky look in in that which doesn't ever concern them.........outer planetary wise.
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Unread 04-05-2018, 01:46 AM
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Re: Modern astrology only, to All

Hi Frisiangal,

Yes, I saw this thread for the first time as it is now (of course your post was not there at the time). And, yes, it did seem to me as though the posts that were there were all admonishing the OP.
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  #7  
Unread 04-05-2018, 02:06 AM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

No the OP has a legitimate point embedded in their post, why were these signs given ridership of those planets, Aries could be arguably ruled by Pluto so Could Capricorn although less validity. I myself a modern astrologer use Aries as Pluto and Mars as Scorpio and it works just as well. As for who named them and their traits, you have to ask this about every planet not just the outer ones. Very good one the Op may I add for starting a firey contraversy that's what I like to see. Listen to op Buddha question everything...
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Unread 04-05-2018, 09:26 AM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

Quote:
Aries could be arguably ruled by Pluto
Hypothetically speaking, this makes sense to me.

Aries is said to be the sign where everything begins; i.e. the seed, the embryo, oxygen.
I learnt that it represented the raw animalistic nature that, through the following signs influences underwent the gradual change towards transformation ( Pluto?) that was able to emerge from the cocoon as 'humanly spiritual' . Through further [r]evolution of the signs again to become 'spiritually spiritual(?? paraphrased)...and so on.

I have long considered that the outer planets are 'conscious raising'
of nature and therefore rule the 'beyond Earthly manifestation' (Capricorn) signs, whilst the signs traditional rulers are more influential through the unconscious Moon effects.
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Unread 04-05-2018, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
Hypothetically speaking, this makes sense to me.

Aries is said to be the sign where everything begins; i.e. the seed, the embryo, oxygen.
I learnt that it represented the raw animalistic nature that, through the following signs influences underwent the gradual change towards transformation ( Pluto?) that was able to emerge from the cocoon as 'humanly spiritual' . Through further [r]evolution of the signs again to become 'spiritually spiritual(?? paraphrased)...and so on.

I have long considered that the outer planets are 'conscious raising'
of nature and therefore rule the 'beyond Earthly manifestation' (Capricorn) signs, whilst the signs traditional rulers are more influential through the unconscious Moon effects.
I agree with you, but where does the beginning start, does life come before death? It's kind of like the chicken and the egg. I could argue that Pluto doesn't rule any one sign because he's not interested in ruling rather he would act exalted in strength in certain signs.
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Unread 04-05-2018, 07:41 PM
Kernix Kernix is offline
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Re: Question about the outer planets

Wow - I'm the OP and I thought this was the section where questions about the outer planets should be - I didn't know that "modern" is considered late 1800's, but "traditional" would imply the discovery of the outer planets.

Regardless, I mainly want to know where the keywords came from, where the descriptions for the influence of the outers came from. Were they taken from Saturn, Jupiter & Mars? OR were they taken from the descriptions of the ancient mythologies dealing with Uranus, Neptune & Pluto?

I'll gladly post this somewhere else, but which came first: observations \ keywords and then the names, or are the keywords\descriptors something that appeared after the naming of the planets.

Let me know if I should delete the post and repost it in another section - sorry for major faux-pas of questioning something about the outer planets - I didn't know if would offend anyone.

[Moderator note: You posted in the correct section. The posts about not using Pluto are not relevant to this section of the AW Forum which focuses on Modern astrology. Modern astrology accepts and uses Pluto in astrological interpretations.]

Last edited by wilsontc; 04-06-2018 at 01:56 PM.
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Unread 04-05-2018, 10:04 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kernix View Post
I thought this was the section where questions about the outer planets should be - I didn't know that "modern" is considered late 1800's, but "traditional" would imply the discovery of the outer planets.

.
It's the other way around.
As explained in reply #3 it's 'modern astrology' that sees the relevance of the outer planets (and further planets discovered beyond Pluto) in astrological interpretation.

Quote:
Regardless, I mainly want to know where the keywords came from, where the descriptions for the influence of the outers came from. Were they taken from Saturn, Jupiter & Mars? OR were they taken from the descriptions of the ancient mythologies dealing with Uranus, Neptune & Pluto?
Did you look up the sites offered by Waybread in her reply #2. They make interesting reading.

Quote:
I'll gladly post this somewhere else, but which came first: observations \ keywords and then the names, or are the keywords\descriptors something that appeared after the naming of the planets.
The outer planets have always been there; they were simply not visible with the naked eye until improvement of the telescope made it possible.

There is a thought in modern times that the outer planets 'discovery'
and naming coincides with, and brings about vast evolutionary changes occuring on a world wide scale that alters the world view as it was
experienced until then. A reason the outer planets have a strong connection with working through 'mass consciousness' and not simply on a personal level.....world history in the making, as it were. IMVHO it's hindsight observation that provides the keywords attached to them.

In that respect, the legend of Quaoar, noted and named in 2002 could have correlations with the ideal of 'World Peace', even if any or each step towards it seems so infinitely small in the making in today's world.
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Unread 04-05-2018, 10:16 PM
Kernix Kernix is offline
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Re: Question about the outer planets

No I haven't checked the links out yet but I plan to - thank
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  #13  
Unread 05-29-2018, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Cough, ahem. This is the modern astrology board. We don't have to debate the legitimacy of the modern outer planets. Modern astrologers use them successfully.

The history of the integration of these planets into modern astrology in the English-speaking world really comes from the few early 20th century popularizers like Alan Leo, who wrote popular astrology textbooks that went into multiple printings.

You might be interested in:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ur_aq.html Look also at the links to other Uranus articles on this page. Skyscript is actually a website dedicated to traditional astrology, but it takes an open view towards modern astrology, as well.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/neptune2.html

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pluto2.html

Beginning with the discovery of Uranus in 1781, astronomers across Europe were in commnication with one another. The discoverer or another astronomer would propose a name, and after a while, it would become commonly used.

Pluto was discovered in 1930, identified as a planet, but astronomers "demoted" it to dwarf planet status in 2006. However, modern astrologers continue to use it as a planet, mostly because it works so well.

Today the naming of new heavenly bodies is done by a professional astronomical society, the International Astronomical Union. https://www.iau.org/public/themes/naming/

If you want to post your chart, we can discuss meanings of the outer planets in it.

Please also keep in mind that astrology contains the good, the bad, and the ugly. I can recommend some good books, if you're interested.
Interesting
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Unread 06-07-2018, 04:03 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

Just FYI, there is no explanation on this site that I can find about what is meant by Modern vs. Traditional astrology. The terms are not universally accepted, so it is highly confusing trying to figure out where one's posts should go.
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  #15  
Unread 06-07-2018, 07:40 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchyone View Post
Just FYI, there is no explanation on this site that I can find about what is meant by Modern vs. Traditional astrology. The terms are not universally accepted, so it is highly confusing trying to figure out where one's posts should go.
Read the blurb for the Traditional Astrology board:
Quote:
For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)
So, if you're talking about Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto, that's modern astrology. If you're talking about any aspects other than the trine, sextile, square, opposition, or conjunction, that's modern astrology. if you're talking about asteroids, that's modern astrology. If you're talking about determining personality traits through astrology--i.e. "What are Tauruses like?"--that's modern astrology. None of that belongs in the Traditional Astrology forum.

The Modern Astrology forum has a counterpart blurb:
Quote:
For discussions on Modern Astrology only. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists. Specifically it relies on psychological, evolutionary, karmic, and non-western interpretation approaches and includes Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, and non-Ptolemaic aspects. The focus is more on psychological chart interpretation instead of prediction.)
What to exclude from modern astrology is a much grayer area, because some modern astrologers use some traditional techniques. Still, if you're talking about things like planetary joys, profections, or other solidly traditional techniques, and not throwing in such modern astrology things as asteroids or quincunxes or Pluto, that would be traditional astrology.

And, like waybread pointed out, and wilsontc pointed out more firmly, in the Modern Astrology forum, discussions are based on the assumption that astrology includes modern planets. Arguing over whether or not the outer planets are astrological planets doesn't belong in Modern Astrology or Traditional Astrology, because on both those boards, that question is settled. If you want to have that kind of discussion, take it to any of the other boards--those are open to both modern and traditional perspectives.

Last edited by Osamenor; 06-07-2018 at 07:46 PM.
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Unread 06-07-2018, 11:48 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

Thanks Osamenor.

I also tried to explain in post #2 the history of how the modern outer planets' rulerships originated.

Note that astrology as a whole nearly died out, at least in the English-speaking world, by the late 17th century, and when it revitalized about 200 years later, it did so in a very different form. Modern astrology sprang out of the theosophical movement, and the kind of mysticism and occult subjects that fascinated the late Victorians.
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Unread 06-08-2018, 11:41 AM
Witchyone Witchyone is online now
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Re: Question about the outer planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
Read the blurb for the Traditional Astrology board:

So, if you're talking about Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto, that's modern astrology. If you're talking about any aspects other than the trine, sextile, square, opposition, or conjunction, that's modern astrology. if you're talking about asteroids, that's modern astrology. If you're talking about determining personality traits through astrology--i.e. "What are Tauruses like?"--that's modern astrology. None of that belongs in the Traditional Astrology forum.

The Modern Astrology forum has a counterpart blurb:

What to exclude from modern astrology is a much grayer area, because some modern astrologers use some traditional techniques. Still, if you're talking about things like planetary joys, profections, or other solidly traditional techniques, and not throwing in such modern astrology things as asteroids or quincunxes or Pluto, that would be traditional astrology.

And, like waybread pointed out, and wilsontc pointed out more firmly, in the Modern Astrology forum, discussions are based on the assumption that astrology includes modern planets. Arguing over whether or not the outer planets are astrological planets doesn't belong in Modern Astrology or Traditional Astrology, because on both those boards, that question is settled. If you want to have that kind of discussion, take it to any of the other boards--those are open to both modern and traditional perspectives.
Thanks for the explanation.

I understood that traditional astrology does not look at the outer planets. I was less clear on which aspects were traditionally calculated. The part about determining personality traits not being part of trad is a surprise to me.
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Unread 06-08-2018, 12:13 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchyone View Post


Thanks for the explanation.

I understood that traditional astrology does not look at the outer planets.
I was less clear on which aspects were traditionally calculated.
The part about determining personality traits not being part of trad is a surprise to me.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html
determining personality traits is most definitely traditional astrology
QUOTE
Main Rulerships of 1st House
Life, vitality and health. Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body.

Older sources note its influence upon the intellect
the way the mind works
and speech
In general, the first house represents the focal point for the personality

and manner of expression.

As well as describing the physical appearance
the condition of this house and that of its planetary ruler
indicates the level of personal vitality and strength.
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  #19  
Unread 06-08-2018, 12:31 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kernix View Post
Does anyone know where the keywords for Uranus, Neptune and Pluto came from?
Were they taken from Saturn \ Aquarius, Jupiter \ Pisces, Mars \ Scorpio?
Also,
who got to actually name the planets after they were discovered?
PLUTO WAS NAMED BY AN ELEVEN YEAR OLD GIRL

NAMED VENETIA BURNEY
On March 14, 1930, 11-year-old Venetia Burney and her family
were eating breakfast at their home in Oxford, England
discussing the biggest news of the day: The discovery of a new planet.


Venetia's grandfather, Falconer Madan, retired head Librarian of the Bodleian Library
at the University of Oxford, read to her from page 14 of The London Times:
NEW PLANET: DISCOVERY BY LOWELL OBSERVATORY
Professor Harlow Shapley, Director of the Harvard Observatory
announced today that the Lowell Observatory at Flag-staff, Arizona
had discovered a ninth major planet.
The planet, which has not yet been named, is beyond Neptune.
It is probably larger than the Earth, but smaller than Uranus.
The discovery confirms the belief of the late Dr. Percival Lowell
that such a planet existed and was in fact the result of
a systematic search of several years in support of Dr. Lowell’s belief.
Professor Shapley calls the discovery the most important
since the discovery of Neptune in 1846.
Venetia was well familiar with Greek and Roman mythology
and further had recently been acquainted with the planets
and their relative distances from the Sun during a nature-walk lesson at school.
As the family discussed what the new planet should be named
she said
“I think Pluto would be a good name for it.”
Pluto is the god of the underworld, who could make himself invisible
and dwelt in a place that sunlight didn’t reach.
It seemed a fitting name for a dark, remote planet.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/48673...ho-named-pluto
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Unread 06-08-2018, 12:35 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
Hi aquarius7000,
You may have looked into this thread AFTER several copied long posts from Paul and Dr. Farr submitted by JUPITERASC re; traditional techniques have been deleted. The slight cough in Waybread's post?
I have to admit that, when looking in this morning, I could not understand why the posts had been allowed in the mod. section.

I don't think it was the O.P's query causing the confusion
but the trad. traditions trying to get a quick and sneaky look in
in that which doesn't ever concern them.........outer planetary wise.
OP asked
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kernix View Post

Did they observe them first

and then gave them names that corresponded to those observations?
Were the people who discovered them into astrology

and named them accordingly?
and so
the following quote from Paul_
simply provides the HISTORICAL DETAIL
of how the outers were named
and answers OPs question
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...8&postcount=12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_ View Post

Just as an historical interlude
that some people may find interesting,
it's note worthy that modern rulerships were assigned
not because of some arduous research and investigation

but instead
by astrologers of the time, cogniscant of the tradition of rulership
basically went ahead and followed Ptolemy's logic,
by assigning the next planet out with the next sign out.
So flowing from the Sun is the rulership scheme

which normally reflects back to the Moon,
but breaking this they just carried on projecting out from the sun.
So the next out from the Sun is Mercury, then Venus, then Mars
then Jupiter and then Saturn,
and then when Uranus was discovered
we see astrologers explicitly invent the rulership to Aquarius
because Aquarius is the next sign out after Capricorn
then when Neptune comes along it's assigned the next one out which is Pisces.
This is explicitly stated in the very earliest sources we have for modern rulership.
So the outer planetary rulerships came about by trying to stay true to the tradition at large
and absolutely not by channelling
or study of numerous charts.
Pluto is discovered and the pattern continues.
It is assigned to Aries
and there is a conference in Germany to discuss the matter more fully.
UNANIMOUS agreement dictates that Pluto rules Aries
and the counter idea, that some were positing at the time
that it should rule Scorpio are squashed.
Until someone beats them to print
and writes up the attributions of Pluto
and that it rules Scorpio.
The author beat them to print and published a successful book and the rest is history.
It stuck, and from that day forth Pluto magically started ruling Scorpio
.
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 06-08-2018 at 12:47 PM.
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Unread 06-08-2018, 12:59 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets


Fomalhaut is pen-name of Abbé Nicollaud
he writes on p. 317 of the first edition of his Manuel d’Astrologie Sphérique et Judiciaire (1897)
granting Uranus to Capricorn, Saturn to Aquarius, Neptune to Pisces, Jupiter to Sagittarius
the asteroids to Libra, Venus to Taurus, Mercury to Virgo
and the hypothetical planet Vulcan
said to orbit between Mercury and the Sun to Gemini
before affirming that the planet beyond Neptune exists and is called Pluto:

He continues to argue out of step with later astrologers
that Pluto is a benefic analogue to Mars:

Finally, he argues that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were all known by the ancient Chaldeans
but that as a result of human eyesight having weakened
they had since become invisible.
And from this he reasons that the ancient Chaldeans ascribed only one sign
to rulership by any one planet – with Pluto as ruler of Aries
This is one of the earliest examples of an attempt

to reduce all planets to one domicile each
in this case using the hypothetical Vulcan, the asteroids
and the then-yet-to-be-discovered-for-33-years Pluto to make up the numbers.

the following article contains the first published assessments
on the sign rulership of Pluto, 1897-1931
https://www.astrolearn.com/astrology...uto-1897-1931/

– Written and compiled by Philip M. Graves 22 March 2016
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 06-08-2018, 05:25 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html
determining personality traits is most definitely traditional astrology
QUOTE
Main Rulerships of 1st House
Life, vitality and health. Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body.

Older sources note its influence upon the intellect
the way the mind works
and speech
In general, the first house represents the focal point for the personality

and manner of expression.

As well as describing the physical appearance
the condition of this house and that of its planetary ruler
indicates the level of personal vitality and strength.
True. I should have clarified back there. Determining personality traits may be done in traditional astrology, but it's not done according to sun sign--at least, not in the sense of "Tauruses are stubborn, Geminis are flighty, Leos are outgoing, Libras are indecisive", etc. So, if someone posts a "What are Tauruses like?" topic, that's not traditional astrology.

IMO, that sun sign personality stuff is terrible modern astrology. Good modern astrology looks at the whole chart and allows for the fact that people aren't just their sun signs, and doesn't reduce the complexities of each sign to a buzzword or a few. But terrible modern astrology is still modern astrology, not traditional.

However, this is getting off topic. This thread wasn't started to discuss what's modern and what's traditional astrology, but how the outer planets were named. Going forward, everyone please stick to that topic.
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Unread 06-08-2018, 05:55 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

I note that the outer planets can be less than personal, when put in personal places however, they can consume and rule a chart and a person. My Neptune is in the first house, although not near the A.C., it is the only other non luminary in the first house. I can say too that is it unaspected ,no minor, major, or Parralels to any planets. I don't quiet know how to measure the strength of an unaspected planet, but I can say that Neptune in the first and reading an unaspected planet as strong, are more accurate of descriptions than anything I can find in my Sun sign alone.
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Unread 06-08-2018, 07:08 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
This thread wasn't started to discuss what's modern and what's traditional astrology, but how the outer planets were named. Going forward, everyone please stick to that topic.
Actually,I didn't care about how they were named - I wanted to know where the keywords asscoiated with them come from. If the keywords weren't stripped from Mars, Saturn & Jupiter, then where did they come from.

As for modern vs. traditional - am I the only one who thinks it sure takes a lot of explaining to differentiate the 2 terms?
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Unread 06-08-2018, 07:21 PM
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Re: Question about the outer planets

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Originally Posted by Kernix View Post
Actually,I didn't care about how they were named - I wanted to know where the keywords asscoiated with them come from. If the keywords weren't stripped from Mars, Saturn & Jupiter, then where did they come from.

As for modern vs. traditional - am I the only one who thinks it sure takes a lot of explaining to differentiate the 2 terms?
Thanks for clarifying. Let's discuss all this going forward!
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