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Unread 11-27-2020, 10:24 PM
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Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

I read a piece about the 12th house and the author likened its energy to a shadow that everyone else can see, but we can't. In other words, it shows good and bad traits we don't realize we exhibit in that area of life, according to the author.

And that made me think about how the 12th house is also supposed to represent our hidden enemies and saboteur - although I think Saturn is our saboteur since it shows where we were made to feel insecure and less than. Maybe I'm wrong.

Anyhoo, after reading the "shadow" piece, I started wondering if we attract our 12th house enemies by exhibiting traits associated with the cusp sign and aspects to the ruling planet. Or would we have a problem with those people (i.e., 12th house cusp sign types) regardless?

Thoughts?

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Unread 11-27-2020, 10:45 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

I haven't seen any particular pattern of people having problems with people who embody the energy of their twelfth house sign. I don't have problems with Sagittarian types any more than I do with anyone else, which I would if that logic held up. (If anything, I like Sagittarian types: they reflect my Moon!)

What I have seen in a couple of cases, like this one, is Neptune contacts being involved in either the actual existence of hidden enemies, or the native believing that they have hidden enemies.

One astro friend of mine has a tendency to believe people, especially women, are jealous of her and plotting against her. From where I sit, it's rarely if ever true, but I see a reason in her chart why she would tend to believe it: she has a Neptune/Venus conjunction in her twelfth house. There is twelfth house involved in that case, and it reinforces the theme, but I don't think twelfth house all by itself is enough.

Our own twelfth house is our blind spot. Especially if it contains planets that are unaspected or make nothing but hard aspects with other planets in the chart. Having one or more planets there puts some significant energy into that house, and it's a part of ourselves we don't easily perceive. However, if a twelfth house planet is communicating with another part of the chart through a trine or sextile, it's easier to access.

If we act from the twelfth house, we might be particularly unaware of how our actions affect others. That could result in making enemies without being aware of it at all, and then being surprised when the enemies turn out to be enemies.

The twelfth house is also a place of power. Strong, but intangible. Like the eighth, it's one of those places where, if we're not extra conscious of it, we might negatively engage our shadow side and then end up, more or less unwittingly, in the midst of power struggles.
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Unread 11-27-2020, 11:41 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
I haven't seen any particular pattern of people having problems with people who embody the energy of their twelfth house sign. I don't have problems with Sagittarian types any more than I do with anyone else, which I would if that logic held up. (If anything, I like Sagittarian types: they reflect my Moon!)

What I have seen in a couple of cases, like this one, is Neptune contacts being involved in either the actual existence of hidden enemies, or the native believing that they have hidden enemies.

One astro friend of mine has a tendency to believe people, especially women, are jealous of her and plotting against her. From where I sit, it's rarely if ever true, but I see a reason in her chart why she would tend to believe it: she has a Neptune/Venus conjunction in her twelfth house. There is twelfth house involved in that case, and it reinforces the theme, but I don't think twelfth house all by itself is enough.

Our own twelfth house is our blind spot. Especially if it contains planets that are unaspected or make nothing but hard aspects with other planets in the chart. Having one or more planets there puts some significant energy into that house, and it's a part of ourselves we don't easily perceive. However, if a twelfth house planet is communicating with another part of the chart through a trine or sextile, it's easier to access.

If we act from the twelfth house, we might be particularly unaware of how our actions affect others. That could result in making enemies without being aware of it at all, and then being surprised when the enemies turn out to be enemies.

The twelfth house is also a place of power. Strong, but intangible. Like the eighth, it's one of those places where, if we're not extra conscious of it, we might negatively engage our shadow side and then end up, more or less unwittingly, in the midst of power struggles.
Interesting. I'm trying to remember personal experiences with my 12th house people that weren't sexy.
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Unread 11-27-2020, 11:57 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Interesting. I'm trying to remember personal experiences with my 12th house people that weren't sexy.
What makes people your 12th house people? How do you define that?
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Unread 11-28-2020, 05:21 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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What makes people your 12th house people? How do you define that?

People associated with our 12th house matters who happen to have strong cusp sign energy.

I like how two astrology bloggers - one of whom was/is an AW member - describe the people linked to each house here:

https://skywriter.wordpress.com/2010...all-12-houses/

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/blog...r-natal-chart/
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Unread 11-28-2020, 06:03 PM
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Yes, I think it makes sense what you’re saying. Consciously gravitating to people with significant placements in my 12th has helped me see how I am projecting energy I actually disavow.
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Unread 11-29-2020, 04:49 AM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

I am a big fan of the 12th house personally as it is the repository of all the other houses and as a water house is spiritually reflective in nature. I find the Pisces/Neptune energy quite magical, though kind of misty and diffuse (hard to see clearly) I see the 12th as mainly sabotage of the self. Meaning the enemy is more within and not conscious. I am saying this because it rules isolation, prisons, ashrams, and self-undoing, illusion. So there can be some deceit, but usually of the self with the self, more than others (of course there are exceptions) My understanding and what I have seen is that the 12th house because, unconscious can be projected onto others. For example your friend who thinks women are jealous of her, could be that she herself is jealous of other women but can't own it. The beauty of the 12th house is that it can help illuminate these disowned parts and create a true wholeness and connection with "the oneness" while keeping the individual flavor of soul expression. The planets and energies and aspects of astrology are not to be owned as your"identity" ..."I am scorpio, I have Gemini in the 3rd house" they are markers for what energy imprints you have come to transform, embody, and share. I think it can actually be harmful to become too identified with your astrological chart as it is more a soul map of the directions your soul is evolving rather than a crystalized "you". I am completely fascinated by people's charts and my own...of course, but I am trying not to identify completely with my chart to leave room and space for something new to come in.....something I don't know.
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Unread 11-29-2020, 04:56 AM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

Ok, I feel like I just repeated everything everyone said, so yes, I agree with all of you on the 12th house qualities, but also want to add the magical mystical "extra" quality of it that is undefined!
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Unread 11-29-2020, 06:11 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Originally Posted by MoonlightSonata View Post
People associated with our 12th house matters who happen to have strong cusp sign energy.

I like how two astrology bloggers - one of whom was/is an AW member - describe the people linked to each house here:

https://skywriter.wordpress.com/2010...all-12-houses/

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/blog...r-natal-chart/
The second of those blogs doesn't list any people for the twelfth house. The first lists mainly people who are probably not part of your daily life (do you "have" nuns, monks, ashram members, or nursing home residents?) plus hidden enemies. If someone is your secret enemy, of course you have problems with them! But then they're not such a secret enemy, are they?
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Unread 11-29-2020, 08:07 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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The second of those blogs doesn't list any people for the twelfth house. The first lists mainly people who are probably not part of your daily life (do you "have" nuns, monks, ashram members, or nursing home residents?) plus hidden enemies. If someone is your secret enemy, of course you have problems with them! But then they're not such a secret enemy, are they?
Yeah, the first post ends at the 11th house, unfortunately. That's why I added the second link for members who, like me, may want to see people associated with all 12 houses.

As to whether or not 12th house people were, are or will become a part of our daily life depends on a number of factors (e.g., location of the ruling planet and aspects to it, transits, progressions and so on). And we're obviously going to have problems with people who mean us harm. The fact that our 12th house enemies are hidden is what makes them harder to confront. For instance, we may or may not learn that a 12th house hidden enemy has been working in cahoots with an obvious seventh house enemy, who might be poisoning the seventh house enemy against us due to a grudge, jealousy, etc. Who knows.

You said you don't have problems with your 12th house people due to your natal moon, but that's your experience. Things may not be working out that way for someone else.
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Unread 11-29-2020, 08:12 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Yes, I think it makes sense what you’re saying. Consciously gravitating to people with significant placements in my 12th has helped me see how I am projecting energy I actually disavow.
Self-awareness can be a mother sometimes.

Looking back, I remember butting heads with people who had, as you say, significant 12th house placements. But those people have helped me grow up a little.
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Unread 11-29-2020, 08:15 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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You said you don't have problems with your 12th house people due to your natal moon, but that's your experience. Things may not be working out that way for someone else.
No I didn't. I said I don't have any more problems with Sagittarians than with anyone else. Sagittarius also happens to be my moon sign. I did not say that was cause and effect.
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Unread 11-29-2020, 08:19 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

But here's a twelfth house--and seventh house--correlation: Moon is my seventh house ruler, it's in my twelfth house, and it's in Sagittarius. Since I started practicing astrology, making myself available for clients and taking questions on my blog, the majority of people who've reached out to me--either as potential clients or by writing a letter to my blog--have been outside the U.S. Foreigners, to me. And of those who are Americans, at least half were born outside the country, or their parents were.

Twelfth house and Sagittarius both say foreigner. Seventh house is the clients you get if you do client work (and the people whose client you are, when you're the client).
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Unread 11-29-2020, 08:23 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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I am a big fan of the 12th house personally as it is the repository of all the other houses and as a water house is spiritually reflective in nature. I find the Pisces/Neptune energy quite magical, though kind of misty and diffuse (hard to see clearly) I see the 12th as mainly sabotage of the self. Meaning the enemy is more within and not conscious. I am saying this because it rules isolation, prisons, ashrams, and self-undoing, illusion. So there can be some deceit, but usually of the self with the self, more than others (of course there are exceptions) My understanding and what I have seen is that the 12th house because, unconscious can be projected onto others. For example your friend who thinks women are jealous of her, could be that she herself is jealous of other women but can't own it. The beauty of the 12th house is that it can help illuminate these disowned parts and create a true wholeness and connection with "the oneness" while keeping the individual flavor of soul expression. The planets and energies and aspects of astrology are not to be owned as your"identity" ..."I am scorpio, I have Gemini in the 3rd house" they are markers for what energy imprints you have come to transform, embody, and share. I think it can actually be harmful to become too identified with your astrological chart as it is more a soul map of the directions your soul is evolving rather than a crystalized "you". I am completely fascinated by people's charts and my own...of course, but I am trying not to identify completely with my chart to leave room and space for something new to come in.....something I don't know.
It is a difficult house to interpret, especially for an astrology newbie like me. In fact, none of them are easy for me at this point. But some things are beginning to click now that I'm putting more effort into studying (e.g., not overidentifying with placements).
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Unread 11-29-2020, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
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Self-awareness can be a mother sometimes.

Looking back, I remember butting heads with people who had, as you say, significant 12th house placements. But those people have helped me grow up a little.
Yeah. One of the hardest things about self awareness has been, you can’t just like make it a profession. Or take a few years in the woods of awareness like a monk and then come back and expect to have whatever you learned available in your normal life context. Like you said about natal charts, you can’t identify with the process too tightly.
Using the old fashioned keywords to interpret the 12th, like “hospitals or mental institutions” also doesn’t seem to work. Couldn’t it equally well refer to a large institution like a corporation or government agency where privacy rules and charters apply.

Last edited by passiflora; 11-29-2020 at 09:03 PM.
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Unread 11-29-2020, 09:28 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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No I didn't. I said I don't have any more problems with Sagittarians than with anyone else. Sagittarius also happens to be my moon sign. I did not say that was cause and effect.
I typed "your 12th house people," and for that I apologize because you didn't say that, and that wasn't my intent. What I meant was not everyone with Sagittarius on the cusp of the 12th will have the same experience with Sagittarians because we're all unique.

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But here's a twelfth house--and seventh house--correlation: Moon is my seventh house ruler, it's in my twelfth house, and it's in Sagittarius. Since I started practicing astrology, making myself available for clients and taking questions on my blog, the majority of people who've reached out to me--either as potential clients or by writing a letter to my blog--have been outside the U.S. Foreigners, to me. And of those who are Americans, at least half were born outside the country, or their parents were.

Twelfth house and Sagittarius both say foreigner. Seventh house is the clients you get if you do client work (and the people whose client you are, when you're the client).
Just out of curiosity, do you think your 12th house people tend to exhibit Sagittarian energy or not? And did you look at transits and progressions when you started taking clients to see what was going on in your chart at that time (e.g., where was Jupiter and what was going on with your Aquarius house)?
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Unread 11-29-2020, 09:51 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Just out of curiosity, do you think your 12th house people tend to exhibit Sagittarian energy or not? And did you look at transits and progressions when you started taking clients to see what was going on in your chart at that time (e.g., where was Jupiter and what was going on with your Aquarius house)?
Jupiter's been moving through my twelfth and first houses the last two years, which was when I started the blog and started doing consultations for pay. My Aquarius house is the second, and I am going through a shift in how I make income, while Saturn has been moving through my first house and changing the t-square that includes natal Saturn and Uranus--and Jupiter--into a grand cross.

There's no one I would consider my twelfth house person. I'm not aware of any hidden enemies (of course, if I have any, I'm naturally not aware of them! ) and I don't have a secret life, really. At most, some parts of my life are an open secret: I don't disclose to everyone that I practice Paganism, that I have ADHD, or even necessarily that I do astrology, whereas the people in my Pagan circle, my ADHD support/social group, and astro friends know all about those parts of my life, respectively. But I don't keep any of those as closely guarded secrets, either. People who know me very, very well might know all of those things about me.
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Unread 11-29-2020, 09:53 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Yeah. One of the hardest things about self awareness has been, you can’t just like make it a profession. Or take a few years in the woods of awareness like a monk and then come back and expect to have whatever you learned available in your normal life context. Like you said about natal charts, you can’t identify with the process too tightly.
Using the old fashioned keywords to interpret the 12th, like “hospitals or mental institutions” also doesn’t seem to work. Couldn’t it equally well refer to a large institution like a corporation or government agency where privacy rules and charters apply.

Pity we can't sit under a tree like Buddha, meditate and become enlightened beings. And even if we could, I wouldn't last long in that position due to arthritis.

There are a lot of "what ifs," and at present, me trying to wrap my noggin around the old fashioned keywords is helping me come up with my own what-if questions and respect my knees at the same time
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Unread 11-29-2020, 10:09 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Jupiter's been moving through my twelfth and first houses the last two years, which was when I started the blog and started doing consultations for pay. My Aquarius house is the second, and I am going through a shift in how I make income, while Saturn has been moving through my first house and changing the t-square that includes natal Saturn and Uranus--and Jupiter--into a grand cross.
Groovy. Transits to my Aquarius house and placements have had a huge impact on my interest in astrology, and my Sagittarian and Jupiter energy make me a bit of a philosopher.

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There's no one I would consider my twelfth house person. I'm not aware of any hidden enemies (of course, if I have any, I'm naturally not aware of them! ) and I don't have a secret life, really. At most, some parts of my life are an open secret: I don't disclose to everyone that I practice Paganism, that I have ADHD, or even necessarily that I do astrology, whereas the people in my Pagan circle, my ADHD support/social group, and astro friends know all about those parts of my life, respectively. But I don't keep any of those as closely guarded secrets, either. People who know me very, very well might know all of those things about me.
Some of the 12th house keywords are hit and miss. For instance, I don't think I have a secret life either. However, I have noticed some parallels when it comes to other 12t house stuff, and that's why astrology is so fascinating to me.
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Unread 11-29-2020, 10:30 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Groovy. Transits to my Aquarius house and placements have had a huge impact on my interest in astrology
Which house is your Aquarius house?

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Some of the 12th house keywords are hit and miss. For instance, I don't think I have a secret life either. However, I have noticed some parallels when it comes to other 12t house stuff, and that's why astrology is so fascinating to me.
I don't recall seeing elders on that list. But the twelfth house is associated with the elderly. Once, early in my tenure here, I asked for a career reading, and a couple of people said I should work with the elderly or with old things because of my twelfth house Moon.

That's not what I do, but one of my serious (as in a significant part of my life is dedicated to it) hobbies is tai chi. The age demographic in tai chi skews older. My classes (currently not operating due to pandemic) have a mix of ages, including some thirty-something and even twenty-something-year-olds, but the majority is 50+. I'm still sometimes the youngest person who shows up on a given evening, even in my mid forties. (I was in my mid thirties when I started with this class.) I'm practicing with people 2-3 decades older than me.

So, most of my tai chi friends could be said to be twelfth house people, in that light. And they're all people with a youthful zest to them. Young-old, as they say. Most of them are very well traveled, too.

Sagittarian traits.
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Unread 11-29-2020, 11:22 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Ok, I feel like I just repeated everything everyone said, so yes, I agree with all of you on the 12th house qualities, but also want to add the magical mystical "extra" quality of it that is undefined!
No worries. It's cool to know that the 12th house gives us "magical, mystical 'extra'" stuff and not just sorrow and hidden enemies.
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Unread 11-29-2020, 11:39 PM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Which house is your Aquarius house?
My seventh - forcing me to look at some of my biggest flaws.

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I don't recall seeing elders on that list. But the twelfth house is associated with the elderly. Once, early in my tenure here, I asked for a career reading, and a couple of people said I should work with the elderly or with old things because of my twelfth house Moon.

That's not what I do, but one of my serious (as in a significant part of my life is dedicated to it) hobbies is tai chi. The age demographic in tai chi skews older. My classes (currently not operating due to pandemic) have a mix of ages, including some thirty-something and even twenty-something-year-olds, but the majority is 50+. I'm still sometimes the youngest person who shows up on a given evening, even in my mid forties. (I was in my mid thirties when I started with this class.) I'm practicing with people 2-3 decades older than me.

So, most of my tai chi friends could be said to be twelfth house people, in that light. And they're all people with a youthful zest to them. Young-old, as they say. Most of them are very well traveled, too.

Sagittarian traits.
I'm not surprised about the number of 50+ folk in your classes. Tai chi is a lot kinder to us than HIIT workouts.
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Unread 12-07-2020, 02:52 AM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

In my opinion, Saturn is not our saboteur but the key to seeing it and understanding it or where we sabotage ourselves. Saturn shows you fear and your fears are where you need to explore if you want to expose your saboteur wiht the light of consciousness.

Neptune, to me, would be more the saboteur, possibly as it rules the 12th house, which is about our "self-undoing" and it represents things like escapism and alcoholism, etc.

The 12th house has always eluded me and was always difficult for me to grasp. That's what it's like...like trying to grasp water or air.

Like Neptune, it is diffuse.

But right now I am in a relationship with someone and our composite sun and Jupiter are in the 12th house. I am, for the first time, beginning to understand the trappings and glamor of the 12th house.

I think it is a relationship built more on fantasy and rose-colored lenses. It is undefined, addictive and strange and we have telepathy. I feel like we have been together before and have unfinished business. I always felt that way. Sure enough, we have a 12th house sun and Neptune squaring our mars in Pisces. Go figure.

But it's neat to see how that energy is playing out. It's funny this is the house of self-undoing as we met in the workplace and our relationship would be a big no-no, so again, like Neptune and the 12th, must be kept secret for the time being.
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Unread 12-07-2020, 04:08 AM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Originally Posted by MoonlightSonata View Post
Groovy. Transits to my Aquarius house and placements have had a huge impact on my interest in astrology
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
Which house is your Aquarius house?
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Originally Posted by MoonlightSonata View Post
My seventh - forcing me to look at some of my biggest flaws.
And you have multiple placements in that house, too? Which planets? What houses do they rule?

I'm working on a theory here. My Aquarius house is empty, so I don't see such a strong effect there, but I do connect my interest in astrology with another part of my chart. I have natal Venus retrograde, in my eighth house (ninth whole sign) and it rules my fifth and tenth houses. I had no interest at all in astrology until the very time when my Venus turned direct by progression.
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Unread 12-07-2020, 04:09 AM
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Re: Twelfth house hidden enemies and our saboteur

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Originally Posted by Carmaela26 View Post
But right now I am in a relationship with someone and our composite sun and Jupiter are in the 12th house. I am, for the first time, beginning to understand the trappings and glamor of the 12th house.

I think it is a relationship built more on fantasy and rose-colored lenses. It is undefined, addictive and strange and we have telepathy. I feel like we have been together before and have unfinished business. I always felt that way. Sure enough, we have a 12th house sun and Neptune squaring our mars in Pisces. Go figure.

But it's neat to see how that energy is playing out. It's funny this is the house of self-undoing as we met in the workplace and our relationship would be a big no-no, so again, like Neptune and the 12th, must be kept secret for the time being.
Interesting story!

Do you also have significant Neptune or 12th house showing up in your synastry with this person? Or just in the composite?
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