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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 07-05-2018, 04:15 AM
VirgoSun78 VirgoSun78 is offline
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Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

Greetings.

I've been reading about conjunctions with the sun as under the beams, cazimi, and combust. Everything I've read suggests that conjunctions with the sun only serve to debilitate the other planet. I find this to be in stark contrast with much of the modern literature and mainstream interpretations of sun conjunctions. What is the deal? Are there any sun conjunctions (aside from cazimi) that are enabling to the other planet? Or are they all (from a traditional perspective) debilitating?

Thanks.

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Unread 07-05-2018, 09:01 PM
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

There's at least one traditional author that thought combustion was bogus and that was Morin but seeing as how he had so many of his planets in very close proximity to the sun, one wonders how unbiased his view was. Check out his chart https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Morinus,_Johannes. You also have the caveat that is pushed by the hellenistic astrologers where they say that a planet is saved from combustion if it is in it's "chariot" - which means if it happens to be in domicile, exaltation or in it's bounds.


So if you're going with a range of opinions from the tradition, the spectrum is from really negative to neutral. I haven't found any author or practitioner who has given a positive spin on the conjunctions of the Sun, but maybe their is an obscure author who has a positive opinion on conjunctions but I'm not familiar with him.



The astrologer over at sevenstarsastrology doesn't seem to view the Sun conjunctions as a debility and instead uses the Sun's natural significations of prominence and mastery whenever connected to another planet. Especially in the case of his professional delineations, this would be a positive view of Sun conjunctions. But then, this man is our contemporary.



From experience, combusted planets have been a mixed bag in natal charts while it's effects in horary have been more consistent, and even in the case of horary, one might want to have the significator under the beams if they'd want whatever they are trying to achieve to be kept hidden. With regard to natals, I came across a string of charts with Cancer rising with the Moon combusted and in each case the natives were in someway neurally-atypical which had an effect on the way they lived their lives, greatly limiting their ability to live a "normal" life. Of course it's not always going to be that drastic, but I have seen where there was an inordinate amount of pressure placed on the planet combusted that might gear it toward imbalance. Some planets fare better under the Sun, such as Mars who is of a similar composition of the Sun, and Mercury who is often under the sun's beams due to its inability to be anywhere farther than 28 degrees from the sun.


Another thing to bare in mind is that while horary is a one-off situation, a natal chart lasts for a lifetime and what might be seen as a debility might turn out to be a very useful trait in the life of the native. Similar to the saying that there is a fine line between genius and insanity - the ability that comes with any talent is accompanied by drawbacks that would be absent without the talent.
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Unread 07-05-2018, 10:27 PM
VirgoSun78 VirgoSun78 is offline
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

So does this suggest that sun conjunctions have either a neutral or negative effect on the conjunctions planet?

Does a combust planet mean the planet has difficulty functioning on its own?
For example, Sun/Saturn combustion. Does Saturn "color" the sun and the sun's manifestation in the person's life while, on its own, Saturn struggles to exert its same qualities and characteristics?
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Unread 07-05-2018, 10:59 PM
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

Again, traditionally opinions range from negative to neutral, so yes that would be the suggestion. In horary, it is generally seen as a major negative. Natally, some view it as a minor debility while others view it in a more dire light.



The nature of conjunctions are that they are unions, so no planet will function on its own, by definition.


As to your example, there would be a mutual colouring of each planet involved. I haven't seen planets being totally cancelled by their conjunction to the Sun, but their is a certain sense of subjectivity that I've seen manifested with the planet conjunct the Sun that in some cases would be a limitation on the part of the native. Sometimes there is wonkiness to it's manifestation as well. Look to the house ruled by the combusted planet to see how the planet fares as a house ruler. Then, the planet will have bearing on whatever house the sign Leo happen to fall in. And the nature of the conjunction will manifest differently according to other aspects of the chart.



Of examples I can think of off the top of my head-



- Native with Sun-Venus Virgo is highly sexed and had unconventional sex partners. She is liable to cheat on her partner due to her sexual proclivities.



- Native with Sun- Venus Virgo is overweight, a sychophant, craved social approval and would do very manipulative and unscrupulous things in order to gain status.



- Sun - Mercury Virgo is seen as slower than he actually is, as he has a very subjective and idiosyncratic way of communicating. He is by no means a dummy, but he is limited in his reception by the way he communicates


- Sun-Mercury Gemini (Cazimi too) has no ability to see beyond her own viewpoints and believes that her way of interpreting the world is the right and true way. She reports that her friends see her as "not as smart as them" and she often feels misunderstood.



- Assemblies (older term for a bunch of planets in the same sign) with the Sun involved also doesn't seem to obliterate the expression of the planets involved, on the contrary in fact. But those are more complex to delineate because of the interplay between so many planets.





To sum up, the planet isn't obliterated totally, but while I don't see struggle, there is a certain level of overemphasis that the Sun conjunction might bring to the planet that may cause an imbalance. Balance and golden means are prized in the tradition. Hopefully this provided clarity.
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Unread 07-05-2018, 11:12 PM
Phenex37 Phenex37 is offline
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

Interesting... I understood conjunction made the sun malefic, with the exception of cazimi where it partakes od the Sun's dignities (reception) and so is 'raised up to the throne'.. Combustion is obliteration in the sense of 'unseen' - for example the significator a lost object is frequently combust (!), not that the lost object is actually destroyed. Combust and separating is much better than combust and applying...
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Unread 07-05-2018, 11:44 PM
VirgoSun78 VirgoSun78 is offline
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

Thanks for the info!
Very much appreciated.
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Unread 07-07-2018, 10:41 AM
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VirgoSun78 View Post
So does this suggest that sun conjunctions have either a neutral or negative effect on the conjunctions planet?

Does a combust planet mean the planet has difficulty functioning on its own?
For example, Sun/Saturn combustion. Does Saturn "color" the sun and the sun's manifestation in the person's life while, on its own, Saturn struggles to exert its same qualities and characteristics?
Traditional Western astrologys Ibn Ezra
wrote "THE BOOK OF REASONS"
in which Ibn Ezra quotes Abu Mashar:
"....Abu Mashar said:
No other planet is as malefic as the Sun when a planet is conjoined with him
for it loses its strength with him
whereas the other malefics cannot do that."

also
THE ABBREVIATION OF THE INTRODUCTION TO ASTROLOGY
translated by Charles Burnett states:
"With regard to the weakness of the planets
it is if they are slow in their motion
or in their first station or retrograding.
The most harmful retrogradation
is the retrogradation of the two inferior planets
especially when, in addition to their retrogradation
they are burnt [combust].
The Sun is a benefic ... it brings good fortune
it brings bad fortune
at one time it raises
at another time it brings down."
So according to Abu Ma'shar SUN has power to create
as well as power to destroy
A planet close to the Sun and moving towards it
is in rougher shape than
a planet on the fringes of combustion
moving away from it.
Combustion renders a planet weak.
A combust planet has difficulty acting
or
its activity is blocked by the Sun.

Some medieval texts
show that combustion is translated into English as "burnt."
A planet is rendered weak
if not impotent
depending on circumstances.
So Saturn is the principle of stucture
if Saturn were combust structure could be lacking
particularly in the house that Saturn is in
and the houses Saturn rules
for example there may be a lack of self discipline
a lack of structure at work.
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Unread 07-07-2018, 11:09 PM
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?


A RECENT EXAMPLE OF SUN AS A MALEFIC

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Unread 07-08-2018, 03:56 AM
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

Traditionally Mars is supposed to do OK combust the sun, as it is already a hot, dry planet.

There is a certain natural sense to combustion, with a planet combust the sun not showing its own true light.

Howevever, I've looked at a lot of charts of professors, who have the sun conjunct Mercury. In modern astrology a planet conjunct the sun shows what you identify with.
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Unread 07-08-2018, 02:35 PM
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

06-19-2018, 02:29 AM
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Re: Dignity + Combustion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Percifrax
I've been noticing this in a lot of charts lately but I'm having a hard time finding any explanations of this online. Since combustion burns and overshadows a a planet, how would that be affected by the combust planet being exalted or domicile? Some examples being Mercury combust in Gemini or Mars combust in Capricorn.

I understand the difference between essential and accidental dignity, but I'm still a little bit confused about the concept of combustion and I'm not sure how it interacts with essential dignity.


According to some Hellenistic authors, a planet in exaltation, domicile or bound is not hurt by the beams. However, in my experience, the star is still weakened to the extent it overrides the previous condition.
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Unread 07-08-2018, 02:37 PM
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

and dr. farr mentions
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post


In my opinion

combustion overcomes dignity

and renders the combust planet weak for any influence
however, I follow the Ankara (old Turkish) outlook regarding the orb of combustion
which is less than the traditional orb

(I follow Ankara's 5 degree orb of combustion
also-again following the Ankara outlook
-I do not credit "under the beams" with any significant effect)
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Unread 07-09-2018, 02:48 AM
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

VirgoSun, I suggest you look at the charts of people you know with a planet conjunct the sun, or celebrity charts available on the Astro-DataBank at Astrodienst www.astro.com. Dr. Farr is a professional, but the others here or cited are amateurs.

So see what works best for you.
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Unread 07-09-2018, 10:10 AM
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

Astrologers have varying opinions on combustion
there is no consensus
so
most research before forming their own opinion

the fact is anyone is entitled to self-style themselves as an astrologer
even if that person only chanced on astrology five minutes ago
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Unread 07-10-2018, 05:59 AM
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Re: Conjunctions with the Sun: Are any of them positive?

Mercury Conjunct Sun.
I still have good memory power.
http://imgur.com/m0qQlLl
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