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Unread 03-31-2011, 08:30 PM
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Smile Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

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Unread 04-01-2011, 01:19 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

If it's within 17 minutes of the Sun, it's cazimi.

If it's further than that, and up to 8-1/2 degrees away, it's combust, even if it's in a different sign.

From 8-1/2 to 15 degrees away it's under the beams, which means it's slightly weakened, but not as much as combustion would weaken it.

Basically what happens in cazimi is the planet is considered to be 'sitting in the lap of the king' and is given great power.

In combustion, the planet's power is transferred to the Sun, so will always act in service to the Sun - which is likely to come with one great gift. Merc/Sun combust is often the sign of a very good writer, for example, but one can get awfully caught up in one's own opinions to the point of not listening to others, Venus combust in Taurus is often the guy who can bed just about any woman but can't establish a permanent relationship, Venus combust in Libra is often a gorgeous woman trapped in a miserable marriage, and so forth.

Jupiter could give wealth, make you a good barrister or a judge, possibly fame, but you might be awfully pompous.

Combust planets for women (any planet) seem to be bad for marriage as a rule, though it doesn't seem to hold true quite so much for men, though it depends on the planet, and I'd definitely still look at it.

A good tutorial on cazimi versus combustion is the Book or Scroll of Ester (which may or may not be in your bible depending on what version you've got). Consider Ester to be cazimi, and a whole lot of other folks in the story combust (even Haman goes combust eventually!). Read in that light you might get a whole new appreciation of biblical literature as well.
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Unread 04-01-2011, 01:25 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

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Unread 04-03-2011, 08:03 PM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

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Unread 04-03-2011, 08:13 PM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

The planet's energy goes to the service of the sun, therefore you usually get A GOOD THING out of it. But because it's burnt by the sun, the other matters that planet rules are usually shot all to hell, often through no fault of your own.

The planet will perform well in one area. With Jupiter, you might get rich, or famous, but not both (extreme example, most people don't do either to any great degree). You could become a cardinal or the equivalent in an organised religion if that was your goal with a combust Jupiter, or a renowned scholar in some secular matter. Those kinds of things. But as a rule, you'll have great luck in one Jupiterian pursuit. The rest - not so much, or not at all.

It also depends whether you're looking at modern or traditional descriptions, though I agree that some early modern (17th century or thereabouts) do tend to paint a rosier picture of combustion/conjunction than they ought to do.

So the positives are either coming from a modern perspective, or an early modern one, I think. If it's traditional there should be a proviso in there. But I'm only one astrologer - just in my own practise I see a lot of combustion, nodal conjunctions, and for some unknown reason I have an ungodly number of clients with a Saturn/Mars opposition out-of-dignity crossing the ascendant/descendant line - and no, they aren't all the same age!

This is what I've found both from study and from my own observations. I know you're a bit young yet for much of it to have played out, and for you Jupiter is more likely to be active in the house it's in rather than the house it rules at this point in your life, but - how does it seem to be behaving?
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Unread 04-03-2011, 08:32 PM
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Unread 04-03-2011, 08:40 PM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

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Unread 04-04-2011, 10:30 PM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

Fascinating material, Olivia.

Esther was probably derived from Ishtar, a near-eastern goddess who became our Venus. Mordechai (the go-between) suits Mercury; and Haman, Saturn. Ahasuerus is the sun king. Vashti (the deposed queen) is the waning moon, who refuses to appear before the king.

Modern astrology usually doesn't deal with concepts like cazimi, combust, or under the beams. In this view, a planet conjunct the sun is not necessarily weakened; rather, it would express an energy that the person would identify with. For example, Mercury conjunct sun people are apt to identify with their intelligence.

I wonder if the traditional interpretion, however, stems from the difficulty of observing a planet close to the sun (at its rising or setting.) Its force would indeed appear to be weakened.
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Unread 04-05-2011, 04:56 PM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

Olivia...this explanation helps me understand how I can have such great mathematical and scientific potential in my chart with Mercury in Capricorn, but be so god awful at it. I love it though!! Of course a Sun/Mercury conjunction usually points to slower development, especially in Capricorn, so that could also explain that why with time, it's getting easier.
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Unread 04-06-2011, 03:00 AM
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Unread 04-06-2011, 03:49 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivia View Post
If it's within 17 minutes of the Sun, it's cazimi.

If it's further than that, and up to 8-1/2 degrees away, it's combust, even if it's in a different sign.

From 8-1/2 to 15 degrees away it's under the beams, which means it's slightly weakened, but not as much as combustion would weaken it.

Basically what happens in cazimi is the planet is considered to be 'sitting in the lap of the king' and is given great power.

In combustion, the planet's power is transferred to the Sun, so will always act in service to the Sun - which is likely to come with one great gift. Merc/Sun combust is often the sign of a very good writer, for example, but one can get awfully caught up in one's own opinions to the point of not listening to others, Venus combust in Taurus is often the guy who can bed just about any woman but can't establish a permanent relationship, Venus combust in Libra is often a gorgeous woman trapped in a miserable marriage, and so forth.

Jupiter could give wealth, make you a good barrister or a judge, possibly fame, but you might be awfully pompous.

Combust planets for women (any planet) seem to be bad for marriage as a rule, though it doesn't seem to hold true quite so much for men, though it depends on the planet, and I'd definitely still look at it.

A good tutorial on cazimi versus combustion is the Book or Scroll of Ester (which may or may not be in your bible depending on what version you've got). Consider Ester to be cazimi, and a whole lot of other folks in the story combust (even Haman goes combust eventually!). Read in that light you might get a whole new appreciation of biblical literature as well.
As usual quality contribution Olivia....

I think when a planet is combust to the Sun i.e. within 8 degrees in my opinion and in a different sign it is dissociate and necessarily weaker.
I think that planet is given vitality when connected to the Sun and give creative powers and strong ego expression. Of course it depends on what else is aspecting that conjunction.....

Would cazimi, a term I am not familiar with, apply to a mars neptune conjunct within that 17 minutes??

Cheers
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Unread 04-06-2011, 03:50 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

Quote:
Olivia, do you practice Traditional Astrology, or Modern Astrology, or both?
Just wondering, cause' if you are a Traditional Astrologer, what's your intake of my Chart, in a Traditional Sense.
I have been wondering this for a while.
In answer to your question, why is there a flower in your 12th house and a question mark on your descendant? I practise strictly traditional astrology, save for astrocartography, and that - partly because I had a small hand in helping develop it, or at least the preliminary interpretations, and second - it's a great time-saver. Given that ibn Ezra was preaching relocated charts for solar returns in the 12th century, I think I have some ground to stand on.

One of my teachers used to start his introduction to lessons with: Welcome to medieval astrology, where the old ways are the good ways, and the earth is still flat!

Which still makes me giggle.

I prefer not to do much in the way of free readings, as that's not fair to paying clients, but if you're interested in traditional astrology, I can certainly point you to some books and other resources on the subject.
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Unread 04-06-2011, 03:54 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire19 View Post

Would cazimi, a term I am not familiar with, apply to a mars neptune conjunct within that 17 minutes??

Cheers
That would be a partile conjunction. Cazimi is within 17 minutes of the Sun only. Same as combustion, under the beams, and curtailed passage - those terms also involve only the phase relationship of a planet to the Sun.
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Unread 04-06-2011, 04:18 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

Oh yes. For a fun and IMMINENT cazimi, go check the General Discussion thread. Like - NOW
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Unread 04-06-2011, 04:30 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

I have both Moon and Mercury combust in Leo in H6.. Both are 1 orb from my Sun.

Im not sure how to explain it.... Ive been trying to understand these myself...
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Unread 04-06-2011, 06:02 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

There are a couple of other ways (beside Cazimi) a planet can be "conjunct" the Sun yet free from combustion:
1) when the planet and the Sun are "conjunct by latitude" as the oldtimers called it (Al-Biruni, etc): that is, when the Sun and the planet are within about 1 degree (to 1.5 degrees) of declination (both either North or South of the ecliptic) In this circumstance the planet and the Sun might well be quite distant in longidtude and not necessarily either combust nor even under the sunbeams...

2) when the planet and the Sun are "conjunct by nature", a type of conjunction fully recognized as such by the ancients (and even as late as the Renaissance period) in which the Sun and the planet each occupy the exact degree in equipollent signs: for example, say Sun is @ 20 Aries and Jupiter is @ 10 Pisces: they are "conjunct by nature" because each planet is exactly the same distance from the "Line of Truth" (the Aries/Libra line); the Sun and Jupiter in this example are in fact the same as being either longitudinally conjunct or conjunct in latitude (Parallel in Declination), but, of course, Jupiter is nowhere near combust or under the sunbeams.

These concepts go back a long time:
-conjunct in latitude to at least 400 AD
-equipollent conjunction (conjunct by nature) to even earlier Greco/Roman times

Parallel of Declination is applied, strangely enough, more in Modernist astrology than in Traditionalist practice...Conjunct by nature (equipollent conjunction) has been forgotten by almost all practitioners, except perhaps a few of the neo-Hellenistic school.
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Unread 04-07-2011, 06:56 PM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

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Last edited by SniperBomber328; 04-16-2011 at 07:38 AM.
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Unread 04-08-2011, 04:01 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

[QUOTE=SniperBomber328;277573]Funny really, because a Transit Jupiter Conjunct Sun is good, but a natal one is bad?


-in a transit there is no combustion involved
-and in conjunction by latitude (Parallel of declination) in a natal there also is not (necessarily) combustion involved
...its the combustion due to conjunction IN LONGITUDE in the natal which causes the problems, although I myself am far from the traditionalist concept of combustion and under-the-sunbeams always meaning the influence of the combusted planet is always destroyed...but then I am an eclectic, not a Modernist, and not a Traditionalist! So I often have perspectives which partisans of either side will dispute...
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Unread 04-08-2011, 07:41 PM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

how would combustion affect a conjunction happening in the same sign and house? would the effect be less visible then? for instance, I have sun conjunct venus 9 degrees 38 minutes, both sun & venus in taurus and in 5th house. is there a sort of cancelling out going on here? or does it make anything stronger? weaker? or emphasized/weakened? it makes me wonder if, with venus' power being transferred to the sun by combustion, how much more I should be trying to align my life with what my sun ultimately is or wants instead of fighting it, a side effect maybe of both my sun and venus in opposition to mars...
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Unread 04-09-2011, 04:09 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

In the reference chart I would not consider Venus combust-even our traditionalist friends wouldn't (they usually follow an 8.5 degree combustion zone), although they would say that Venus is "under the sunbeams". Of course with the tight orbs I follow I wouldn't regard Venus as conjunct the Sun either (the conjunction orb for the Sun which I follow is around 6-7 degrees); however, in Vedic astrology (and in the very ancient Greco/Roman astrology) since Venus and the Sun are in the same sign, they are "sign conjunct" (not as "intense" as conjunction in longitude or Parallel, but still conjunct in essence)
However, with this Venus/Sun situation, there is definitely a need to consider the Sun's influence here as significant, with potential ramifications to be considered relative to Venus.
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Unread 04-09-2011, 05:46 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

I could be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere that mars combust is not much affected because its choleric quality isnt much bothered by the fire of the sun....true? (I have mars combust in cappy 5th)
And to the OP, you shouldnt equate tradition with just the "bad" in your chart. You dont think modern will show you any bad? Is it wise to live under rose colored glasses and have people only tell you what you want to hear? Oh no your so wonderful and gracful and have nothing in your way! BAM!!! you fall in a hole you couldve side stepped!
Plus, you should learn what your talking about before making assumptive statements. If you are asking about combustion, you are obviously studying all over the place and mixing modern and traditional concepts. It isnt something to be judged right out of the gates. You have to study everything and can only judge the merits of each after a FULL understanding, which can take many YEARS. Otherwise, your not serious and just playing around....in which you wouldve wasted the time of people who have alot of knowledge to give, like Olivia who generously took the time to describe alot for you ...just to have you turn around immediately after and basically say (paraphrased) I dont like your bad poo poo traditional stuffy stuff!
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Unread 04-09-2011, 06:36 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

Several of the old-time authors made qualifying statements regarding how combustion affected the various planets; some did make that statement you mentioned about Mars, others (like Ibn Ezra) made similar statements regarding Mercury (which never more than 28 degrees from the Sun at any time) Others (Firmicus Maternus for example) gave varying degree orbs of combustion, depending upon the planet involved. It was during the post 13th century time that European authors made a generic combustion orb for all planets.

I follow an element-based consideration regarding combustion:
-Water and Earth are very much affected by Fire (Sun) BUT are also highly resistant to the Fire Element: therefore Moon and Venus are especially affected by combustion but are also very resistant to it:
...so for the Moon and Venus I take the orb of combustion at 3 degrees
-Cold and dry Saturn and Mercury are moderately affected by Fire (Sun) but, because of their coldness, are also moderately resistant to it...so for Saturn and Mercury I take the orb of combustion at 4 degrees
-Warm and moist Jupiter (Air) is affinitive to Fire (Sun) in its warmth, but resistant to it in its moisture: therefore Jupiter is less affected by combustion than, say Moon or Venus, but is somewhat less resistant to Fire than Earth (Saturn, Mercury) and definitely less resistant than Water (Venus, Moon)...so for Jupiter I take the orb of combustion at 5 degrees
-Hot and dry Mars (Fire) is most affinitive to the Sun, and therefore will co-flame with it ("combust" with it) more than any other (traditional) planet; yet at the same time it will be hardly affected by the combust state, really will be more like a double-fire situation, mixing its martial influences with the solar one:...so for Mars I take the orb of combustion at from 6 to even as much as 8 degrees.

Following an elemental allocation to the outer planets, I consider the orb of combustion for Uranus (Air) to be similar to that of Jupiter, of Neptune (Water) to that of Venus, of Pluto (Fire) to that of Mars...

Thinking about the OP's original question, can a planet be in (longitudinal) conjunction with the Sun without also being combust, using the orbs of combustion which I follow, and the solar orb of conjunction which I follow (6 degrees) I would say:
-yes, its possible that the Moon, Venus, Mercury, Saturn and Jupiter (as well as Uranus and Neptune) COULD be in conjunction with the Sun WITHOUT also being combust, but that Mars (and Pluto) could NOT be in conjunction with the Sun without also being combust.

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-09-2011 at 07:07 AM.
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Unread 04-10-2011, 12:32 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

Question: How does one find out if a planet is 17min from the Sun making it Cazimi? Also, since the Sun and Mars have compatible energies would the Cazimi energy affect the conjunction much? (My Sun and Mars are extremely close but not sure by how many min.)

Thanks, Serafin5
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Unread 04-10-2011, 01:19 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

[QUOTE=dr. farr;277889]
I follow an element-based consideration regarding combustion:

-Warm and moist Jupiter (Air) Why are you signifying Jupiter as an air sign? Why not fire? is affinitive to Fire (Sun) in its warmth, but resistant to it in its moisture: therefore Jupiter is less affected by combustion than, say Moon or Venus, but is somewhat less resistant to Fire than Earth (Saturn, Mercury) and definitely less resistant than Water (Venus, Moon)...so for Jupiter I take the orb of combustion at 5 degrees
-Hot and dry Mars (Fire) [/B] is most affinitive to the Sun, and therefore will co-flame with it ("combust" with it) more than any other (traditional) planet; yet at the same time it will be hardly affected by the combust state, really will be more like a double-fire situation, mixing its martial influences with the solar one:...so for Mars I take the orb of combustion at from 6 to even as much as 8 degrees.

Following an elemental allocation to the outer planets, I consider the orb of combustion for Uranus (Air) to be similar to that of Jupiter, of Neptune (Water) to that of Venus, of Pluto (Fire) And why signifying Pluto as a fire sign and not a water sign? to that of Mars...
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Unread 04-10-2011, 01:33 AM
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Re: Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by serafin5 View Post
Question: How does one find out if a planet is 17min from the Sun making it Cazimi? Also, since the Sun and Mars have compatible energies would the Cazimi energy affect the conjunction much? (My Sun and Mars are extremely close but not sure by how many min.)

Thanks, Serafin5
You have to make your chart. In your chart they are 42 minutes away.
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