Narrowing down my time of Birth

In trying to learn about astrology, I learned that 1, my birth certificate does not list the time, and 2, my mother does not remember when I was born. (Traumatic birth with conflicting medical drugs involved.) She knows that she arrived at the hospital around 10:30pm, was in established labor by around midnight, I was born "some time in the ‘small’ hours," and that it was probably at least 7am by the time my dad went home. She thinks it was light.

I was born October 11th, 1988 in Harlow, England. My Sun and Moon are in Libra.

I really want to be able to look at my houses accurately. Trying to narrow things down through planets;

Determining my Ascendant sign;
This site is interesting; I can't find any Libra, Libra, Virgo photos, but the Libra, Virgo, Libra combination is closest to my physical appearance on there;
http://www.habarbadi.com/astrofaces/
The triple Libra photos look NOTHING like me.
I also look fairly similar to this lady;
https://www.youtube.com/user/AlyssAstrology
Who has Libra Sun, Taurus Moon and Venus and Ascendant in Virgo.

The three possibilities for my ascendant are Leo, Virgo, Libra.

• I do not relate to any of the Leo descriptions. I of course relate to the descriptions of Libra, as my sun and moon are there too, and this is why I feel like I could use an objective perspective!
• I relate to everything Virgo Ascendant I've come across so far. I've also experienced digestive issues in my life, so if I had to pick one I'd have to guess Virgo.
• I relate to most things about Libra Ascendant, but not all. Especially things like avoiding phone calls! This may be because I have planets like Mars in Aries though. I also don't have the flock of friends around me that most Libras seem to.

My midheaven could be in Aries, Taurus, Gemini or Cancer.

• Aries - I relate to the idea around that I'm shifting into that "get stuff done" phase from the IC of my childhood. This may just be the phase of life I'm at though. Positions such as police or soldier hold no interest for me, and while I have shifted on the details, the core of my work has stayed consistent.
• Taurus - I'm working towards working from home. I'm an artist. I married young, had a child fairly young, my home life and marriage isn't at all what I thought it would be and has undergone many shifts, I'm even living and making my home in another country when I had no desire to do that! Family secrets, yes. I was raised very conservatively, so the sexy image isn't something I would tend to claim, but I have had a handful of people sexualize me from quite a young age. I kind of figured that was normal for this society, but reading this stuff I'm wondering maybe not for everyone. I can also be a bit wishy washy, and have taken risks against stability/security, which seems against the nature of Taurus.
• Gemini - Married Young. Moved Away. Don't feel like I fit in to my family. I have a very strong message that I really want to communicate, revolving around community and inclusion. I tend to go full on with one topic, get very good at it, drop it, and move on. I do love to talk things through with people. I'm building up a solid community online rather than locally.
• Cancer - Restricted childhood. Dad was always working. Wanting to create a nurturing community around me rather than focusing on family. Family Issues. Mum took on a very masculine role. Running business from home. Family orientated. Overcame a lot of obstacles on my own. Independant. High pressure to be good in school from parents. Want to be recognized for my work.

If I had to pick one, it may be Cancer... not sure, as there's not much information out there, and I would have picked Gemini initially as I started my research.

If we narrow down the time to only include Virgo Ascendant, then the time is from approximately 3am to 5:30am, and the midheaven can only be in Gemini or Taurus.

If we narrow down the time to only include Virgo Ascendant, then the time is from approximately 3am to 5:30am, leaving the true north node in 6th or 7th House in Aries.

(Will edit to finish the houses later, got to go put the little one to bed. Feel free to reply with what I've posted so far!)

What I would be doing is working with the degree of your moon sign, trying to work out what it is, then working on your asc to become exact after that.

A good example would be that you may have felt rather emotional in the last few days??? Transit Mars conjunct Moon. I know I go rather loopy when this happens. Do you know what you felt most emotional? Or if not maybe you might in the next week or so.

You could also look at the NN transit to your Moon in the future to also work out the degree of the moon sign.

Also you could have a look back when you have Transit Saturn conjunct Moon things happening???

I think you also have a typo... i assume you where born the 11th and not the 1st of October

Nekalta;546361[FONT=Verdana said:

In trying to learn about astrology, I learned that

1, my birth certificate does not list the time,

and

2, my mother does not remember when I was born.
(Traumatic birth with conflicting medical drugs involved.)

She knows that she arrived at the hospital around 10:30pm, was in established labor by around midnight,
I was born "some time in the ‘small’ hours,"
and that it was probably at least 7am by the time my dad went home.
She thinks it was light.

I was born October 1th, 1988. My Sun and Moon are in Libra.

I really want to be able to look at my houses accurately. Trying to narrow things down through planets;

Determining my Ascendant sign;
This site is interesting; I can't find any Libra, Libra, Virgo photos, but the Libra, Virgo, Libra combination is closest to my physical appearance on there;
http://www.habarbadi.com/astrofaces/
The triple Libra photos look NOTHING like me.
I also look fairly similar to this lady;
https://www.youtube.com/user/AlyssAstrology
Who has Libra Sun, Taurus Moon and Venus and Ascendant in Virgo.

The three possibilities for my ascendant are Leo, Virgo, Libra.

• I do not relate to any of the Leo descriptions. I of course relate to the descriptions of Libra, as my sun and moon are there too, and this is why I feel like I could use an objective perspective!
• I relate to everything Virgo Ascendant I've come across so far. I've also experienced digestive issues in my life, so if I had to pick one I'd have to guess Virgo.
• I relate to most things about Libra Ascendant, but not all. Especially things like avoiding phone calls! This may be because I have planets like Mars in Aries though. I also don't have the flock of friends around me that most Libras seem to.

My midheaven could be in Aries, Taurus, Gemini or Cancer.

• Aries - I relate to the idea around that I'm shifting into that "get stuff done" phase from the IC of my childhood. This may just be the phase of life I'm at though. Positions such as police or soldier hold no interest for me, and while I have shifted on the details, the core of my work has stayed consistent.
• Taurus - I'm working towards working from home. I'm an artist. I married young, had a child fairly young, my home life and marriage isn't at all what I thought it would be and has undergone many shifts, I'm even living and making my home in another country when I had no desire to do that! Family secrets, yes. I was raised very conservatively, so the sexy image isn't something I would tend to claim, but I have had a handful of people sexualize me from quite a young age. I kind of figured that was normal for this society, but reading this stuff I'm wondering maybe not for everyone. I can also be a bit wishy washy, and have taken risks against stability/security, which seems against the nature of Taurus.
• Gemini - Married Young. Moved Away. Don't feel like I fit in to my family. I have a very strong message that I really want to communicate, revolving around community and inclusion. I tend to go full on with one topic, get very good at it, drop it, and move on. I do love to talk things through with people. I'm building up a solid community online rather than locally.
• Cancer - Restricted childhood. Dad was always working. Wanting to create a nurturing community around me rather than focusing on family. Family Issues. Mum took on a very masculine role. Running business from home. Family orientated. Overcame a lot of obstacles on my own. Independant. High pressure to be good in school from parents. Want to be recognized for my work.

If I had to pick one, it may be Cancer... not sure, as there's not much information out there, and I would have picked Gemini initially as I started my research.

If we narrow down the time to only include Virgo Ascendant, then the time is from approximately 3am to 5:30am, and the midheaven can only be in Gemini or Taurus.

If we narrow down the time to only include Virgo Ascendant, then the time is from approximately 3am to 5:30am, leaving the true north node in 6th or 7th House in Aries.

(Will edit to finish the houses later, got to go put the little one to bed. Feel free to reply with what I've posted so far!)

Click to expand...

Nekalta, there's detailed in-depth discussion thread including numerous RECTIFICATION TIPS http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51626

Astrologer RON BIPPUS 40 year research results led to published article regarding ascendant DECAN connections with physical appearance http://reocities.com/athens/delphi/1601/physical.html

Keep in mind when studying the RON BIPPUS webpage
that even within the same race there are differences of skin tone and eye colour
so it's not unusual for children of the same race to be fairer or darker complexioned than their siblings.

And within the race of white/whitish people some siblings are darker/lighter complexioned than others
and
likewise within the race of black/blackish people some siblings are darker/lighter complexioned than others


Focusing on

height
weight
bone structure
eye colour

gives overall good results



Black people with Blue eyes and other ethnicities
Parts 1 and 2http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vhW7rR6VDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCPBpCWm89Y


AND IF YOU MARRIED
Keep in mind that during a wedding,
particularly at the time the vows are spoken,

(a) the Ascendant Ruler and the Ruler of Cusp Seven must connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis
because that is what a wedding is, astrologically!

(b) On the wedding day - Sun, Moon, Venus and Mars
must also connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis

Why?

Venus and Mars
must connect in order to symbolise the 'Archetypal Lovers'

Sun and Moon
must connect in order to symbolise the 'Domestic Couple'
– now united and involved in 'house-keeping', child-bearing, child rearing


Tips on some of the basic ways the ASC/DESC rulers may connect to the Natal Horizon include:

(1) Trine, sextile, square, opposition, conjunction

(2) Any ASC/DESC ruler conjunct the MC is considered to connect to the local horizon via the MC/IC AXIS

(3) personal observation indicates that Midpoint of transiting ASC/DESC rulers of the wedding date,
frequently connects to the Natal Horizon.


An astrological friend, now deceased, told me they learned the technique to verify an ascendant while a student decades ago
and have never asked for payment for the information: I continue to pass the method on freely to others so that anyone may test it for themselves.

If using the marriage rectification method does not work for you
then check out another rectification method – there are plenty!

Thank you all so much! So much helpful information.

I havn't learned much about transits yet, any suggestions specifically to this topic? I have not felt very emotional the last few days, though I have been sick with a cold!

Kerrie, yes thank you for catching that typo! I was indeed born on the eleventh.
What is the NN transit?

I have not heard of rectification... I will go check that out!

I "married" the same guy twice... one in the legal ceremony, (I count this as my actual marriage) one a couple months later in a church blessing for my parents. Which one should I use?

Nekalta said:

Thank you all so much! So much helpful information.

I havn't learned much about transits yet, any suggestions specifically to this topic? I have not felt very emotional the last few days, though I have been sick with a cold!

Kerrie, yes thank you for catching that typo! I was indeed born on the eleventh.
What is the NN transit?

Click to expand...

ARTICLE EXPLAINS THE LUNAR NODES http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_node

Nekalta said:

I have not heard of rectification... I will go check that out!

Click to expand...

An astrological technique from antiquity generally known as the Prenatal Epoch is a time-consuming method of rectification that works best when the birth did not involve medical intervention, such as Caesarian or drugs, but always interesting to check these methods out especially since detailed instructions on precisely how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method may be viewed FOR FREE at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm

QUOTE

'....Ascendant, or its opposite, at birth, is Moon's position at conception.


....Known as "Trutine of Hermes," from Hermes Trismegistus who stated the law as follows:

"The place of the Moon at conception becomes the birth ascendant or its opposite point."


"But this proved to be but one-half of a very important law, for while the...

Ascendant at birth was the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch, the Ascendant or its opposite point at this Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth

....a very remarkable interchange of factors." E.H. Bailey. http://www.amazon.com/The-Prenatal-Epoch-E-H-Bailey/dp/1933303247

Nekalta said:

I "married" the same guy twice...
one in the legal ceremony, (I count this as my actual marriage)
one a couple months later in a church blessing for my parents.
Which one should I use?

Click to expand...

Create a chart for the moment the vows were taken
for BOTH the legal ceremony
AND the one a couple of months later in a church
then
study the charts separately
and
compare the charts AS WELL

I think transits are the best! You should start reading up... and a good way is to work out the transits I have already mentioned.


What dates do you have for your legal ceremony and the church blessing. Lets see if it shows up on these dates. Do you have times too?

16th July, 2008, Legal Ceremony. Possible time of 6:52pm according to the timestamp on the camera, though this may have been off. (I remember it being much earlier in the afternoon, but I wasn't paying attention to the time!) Grand Island, Nebraska.

1st November, 2008. 12:30pm. Church Blessing. Grand Island, Nebraska.

Interesting... doing some very rough comparisons so far, with the chart for my Blessing at 12:30, ASC Ruler is Saturn, 7th House Ruler is Moon.

Looking at a synastry chart for different times of my birth;

Natal time; 00:30 - Sun Opposition ASC, Venus Opposition ASC, Mars Square ASC. Venus Square Mars.
1:30am - Sun Conjunct ASC, Venus Conjunct ASC, Mars Square ASC. Venus Square Mars.
2:30am - Sun Conjunct ASC, Venus Conjunct ASC, Saturn Conjunct ASC, Mars Square ASC. Venus Square Mars.
3:30am - Sun Conjunct ASC, Venus Conjunct ASC, Saturn Conjunct ASC, Mars Square ASC. Venus Square Mars.
4:30am - Sun Sextile ASC, Saturn Conjunct ASC. Venus Square Mars.

So this is implying that the 2:30am-3:30am time is more accurate than the others?

Interesting that I'm not seeing the moon there... I'm guessing I need to get a more accurate time for this, start checking every 10mins in the more narrowed down time?

I'm not seeing a way for the sun and moon to connect much to be honest. Am I doing this wrong? Am I supposed to be checking my husband's chart with mine? His may be DAYS off so that wouldn't be accurate at all.

Doing the same thing with the Legal Ceremony - I noticed that the only planets (again, in a quick synastry chart) that show up are Mars and Venus! This may be astrologically correct, as in some ways it was very much a romance only, and the full "marriage" came later - it was an elopement. We were engaged on the 4th July.

Assuming the time of 6:52pm is correct for the Legal Ceremony;

Natal Time;
0:30am - Venus Trine ASC, Mars Sextile ASC. Venus Sextile Mars. Sun Square Moon.
1:30am - Mars Trine ASC, Venus Sextile ASC. Venus Sextile Mars. Sun Square Moon.
2:30am - Mars Trine ASC, Venus Sextile ASC. Venus Sextile Mars. Sun Square Moon.
3:30am - Mars Trine ASC. Venus Sextile Mars. Sun Square Moon.
4:30am - Sun Sextile ASC. Venus Sextile Mars. Sun Square Moon.

Assuming an earlier time of 4:52pm for the Ceremony;

Natal Time;
0:30am - Venus Sextile Mars. Sun Square Moon.
1:30am - Venus Sextile Mars. Sun Square Moon.
2:30am - Mars Trine ASC. Venus Sextile Mars. Sun Square Moon.
3:30am - Mars Trine ASC, Venus Sextile ASC. Venus Sextile Mars. Sun Square Moon.
4:30am - Mars Trine ASC, Venus Sextile ASC. Venus Sextile Mars. Sun Square Moon.

So it looks like maybe the timestamp for the legal ceremony is correct?

My daughter's birth was November 6th 2011, in Hastings, Nebraska. Her birth certificate says 8:49am but I know that's way too late as I remember looking at the clock when I was pushing and it was almost 20 past something - either 7 or 8, and I only pushed for 10mins. I ended up hemorrhaging and passing out, so I don't know the exact time, and the medical staff were busy with me rather than the clock. If I check when the sun came up I could narrow that down a bit because the sun was rising as I was pushing.

I've edited the original post too, as this was missing, but my place of birth was Harlow, England.

JupiterAsc
I've often wondered in resent month in my study when are the planets supposedly activating on such things as marriage or childbirth.

What about the moment in time when a couple actually decide that they will marry and then they just set a convenient date in the future. The day of decision must be important as well?

Also the date of conception must be important for the 5th house or 5th house ruler, right?

See my questions in red below.

AND IF YOU MARRIED
Keep in mind that during a wedding,
particularly at the time the vows are spoken,

(a) the Ascendant Ruler and the Ruler of Cusp Seven must connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis
because that is what a wedding is, astrologically!

Do you mean Asc ruler and ruler of 7th of the natal chart of the person's involved? Or is it the rulers of Asc and 7th of the hour of marriage that touches on the natal axis?

(b) On the wedding day - Sun, Moon, Venus and Mars
must also connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis

Why?

Venus and Mars
must connect in order to symbolise the 'Archetypal Lovers'

Should we also see the connection of Venus and Mars on the day that the couple decides to get married - a proposal day?

Sun and Moon
must connect in order to symbolise the 'Domestic Couple'
– now united and involved in 'house-keeping', child-bearing, child rearing


Tips on some of the basic ways the ASC/DESC rulers may connect to the Natal Horizon include:

(1) Trine, sextile, square, opposition, conjunction

(2) Any ASC/DESC ruler conjunct the MC is considered to connect to the local horizon via the MC/IC AXIS

(3) personal observation indicates that Midpoint of transiting ASC/DESC rulers of the wedding date,
frequently connects to the Natal Horizon.

Click to expand...

Some more important dates;

Sister born April 29th, 1991. Early Morning.
Sister born November 19th, 1993. Early Morning.
Meet my husband face to face for the first time. 24th June 2007. 1pm ish?
Engaged - 4th July 2008. 11pm?
Bad reaction to vaccines - seizures and passed out. 19th November 2008. Late morning?
Dentist removes impacted wisdom tooth - 12th March, 2009. Awake procedure. Mid Morning.
Signed real estate contract - 29th June 2009. Late Morning.
Finalized separate real estate - 28th February 2013.
Cut foot open - needed stitched. 23rd October, 2013. Mid morning.

I hope these are the kinds of things that are helpful. What would I be looking for in planets for these events?

I do locality charts. Can you post names of towns where engagement, bad reaction, and cutting foot occurred?

I keep forgetting those locations! Haha. Thank you! What/How do you do these charts?

Engagement - Hastings, Nebraska.
Bad Reaction - Grand Island, Nebraska.
Foot cut - Crestone, Colorado.

Nekalta said:

I keep forgetting those locations! Haha. Thank you! What/How do you do these charts?

Engagement - Hastings, Nebraska.
Bad Reaction - Grand Island, Nebraska.
Foot cut - Crestone, Colorado.

Click to expand...

ASTROLOCALITY WEBSITE http://michaelerlewine.com/viewtopic.php?f=235&t=1449

GENERATE YOUR OWN FREE Astro*Carto*Graphy Maps
at http://www.chaosastrology.net/freeastrologycharts.cfm


QUOTE

'.....generate Astro*Carto*Graphy maps by date and place - commonly consulted in relocation questions, astrocartography maps are charted on a graphical atlas with lines traced by the planets showing their apparent locations on earth...'

Hey again Nekalta
I find such threads interesting as I've also myself been trying to find my own ASC sign, and did not come to a final conclusion yet.

I will follow this thread to see how you will work it out

I did notice the post from JupiterAsc and maybe I misunderstood it the first time but now I did check my own chart on the day I got married and I see that the hour I married the ASC/DSC axis of that hour is passing through the signs that I have been suspecting could be my ASC/DSC signs - Aries/Libra. But what JupiterASC says is that the rulers of the ASC and DSC signs must touch the axis at the time you speak your vows - and this one I am not sure of.

From JupiterASC

AND IF YOU MARRIED
Keep in mind that during a wedding,
particularly at the time the vows are spoken,

(a) the Ascendant Ruler and the Ruler of Cusp Seven must connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis
because that is what a wedding is, astrologically!

(b) On the wedding day - Sun, Moon, Venus and Mars
must also connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis

Click to expand...

I notice that the hour/time you give for your engagement on 4th of July at 23.00 the ASC/DSC axis is moving through Aquarius and Leo. Do you find that this fits as your ASC and DSC signs? Or did you check the planets mentioned and their placement on your engagement to get closer to your possible ASC sign?

I do not know if it helps you at all ... but did you also try and read your other houses and see if it fits? Like if you do have Virgo ASC, then your 4th house is in Saggittarius and has Saturn and Uranus conjunct in that house.

If you have Libra ASC then your 4th house will be in Capricorn - so also ruled by Saturn.

Have you read into your 7th house and analysed your own relationship and attitude towards it? Did you look at where your 7th house ruler would be placed?

Nekalta said:

The three possibilities for my ascendant are Leo, Virgo, Libra.

• I do not relate to any of the Leo descriptions. I of course relate to the descriptions of Libra, as my sun and moon are there too, and this is why I feel like I could use an objective perspective!
• I relate to everything Virgo Ascendant I've come across so far. I've also experienced digestive issues in my life, so if I had to pick one I'd have to guess Virgo.
• I relate to most things about Libra Ascendant, but not all. Especially things like avoiding phone calls! This may be because I have planets like Mars in Aries though. I also don't have the flock of friends around me that most Libras seem to.

My midheaven could be in Aries, Taurus, Gemini or Cancer.

• Aries - I relate to the idea around that I'm shifting into that "get stuff done" phase from the IC of my childhood. This may just be the phase of life I'm at though. Positions such as police or soldier hold no interest for me, and while I have shifted on the details, the core of my work has stayed consistent.
• Taurus - I'm working towards working from home. I'm an artist. I married young, had a child fairly young, my home life and marriage isn't at all what I thought it would be and has undergone many shifts, I'm even living and making my home in another country when I had no desire to do that! Family secrets, yes. I was raised very conservatively, so the sexy image isn't something I would tend to claim, but I have had a handful of people sexualize me from quite a young age. I kind of figured that was normal for this society, but reading this stuff I'm wondering maybe not for everyone. I can also be a bit wishy washy, and have taken risks against stability/security, which seems against the nature of Taurus.
• Gemini - Married Young. Moved Away. Don't feel like I fit in to my family. I have a very strong message that I really want to communicate, revolving around community and inclusion. I tend to go full on with one topic, get very good at it, drop it, and move on. I do love to talk things through with people. I'm building up a solid community online rather than locally.
• Cancer - Restricted childhood. Dad was always working. Wanting to create a nurturing community around me rather than focusing on family. Family Issues. Mum took on a very masculine role. Running business from home. Family orientated. Overcame a lot of obstacles on my own. Independant. High pressure to be good in school from parents. Want to be recognized for my work.

If I had to pick one, it may be Cancer... not sure, as there's not much information out there, and I would have picked Gemini initially as I started my research.

If we narrow down the time to only include Virgo Ascendant, then the time is from approximately 3am to 5:30am, and the midheaven can only be in Gemini or Taurus.

If we narrow down the time to only include Virgo Ascendant, then the time is from approximately 3am to 5:30am, leaving the true north node in 6th or 7th House in Aries.

(Will edit to finish the houses later, got to go put the little one to bed. Feel free to reply with what I've posted so far!)

Click to expand...

May I ask you a few questions as I am a bit curious?

You say you married young and had a child. How young? What age was the marriage ... is that the date you give for "engagement"? So when you are in your 20th year? Having a child in the same year?

You say your upbringing/childhood was stricht. It fits with Capricorn in 4th house or Saturn on the IC like will happen if your ASC is in last degrees of Virgo and first degrees of Libra.

You say you moved to another country - which might fit with Venus in 1st house as well as you being an artist.

Do you work as an artist or do you not work at the moment?

What does your husband do and how did you meet him?

You said you were sexualized in your childhood.
It might fit with Lilith close to the ASC or Pluto near the ASC from what I've heard.

Is your mother alive today?

Arena said:

Hey again Nekalta
I find such threads interesting as I've also myself been trying to find my own ASC sign, and did not come to a final conclusion yet.

I will follow this thread to see how you will work it out

I did notice the post from JupiterAsc and maybe I misunderstood it the first time but now I did check my own chart on the day I got married and I see that the hour I married the ASC/DSC axis of that hour is passing through the signs that I have been suspecting could be my ASC/DSC signs - Aries/Libra. But what JupiterASC says is that the rulers of the ASC and DSC signs must touch the axis at the time you speak your vows - and this one I am not sure of.

From JupiterASC
From JupiterASC
Quote:
AND IF YOU MARRIED
Keep in mind that during a wedding,
particularly at the time the vows are spoken,

(a) the Ascendant Ruler and the Ruler of Cusp Seven must connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis
because that is what a wedding is, astrologically!

(b) On the wedding day - Sun, Moon, Venus and Mars
must also connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis

I notice that the hour/time you give for your engagement on 4th of July at 23.00 the ASC/DSC axis is moving through Aquarius and Leo. Do you find that this fits as your ASC and DSC signs? Or did you check the planets mentioned and their placement on your engagement to get closer to your possible ASC sign?

Click to expand...

Arena I have responded to this comment you made concerning a possible misunderstanding of the instructions
with a post on your own original thread at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=548728#post548728