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Aspects & configurations Discuss here about natal chart aspects and configurations.


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  #1  
Unread 05-29-2013, 01:42 AM
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Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

When you see a natal chart in which a planet has only wide orbs, how do you consider it? Are these aspects wide but still mildly influential? Are the aspects still 100% valid and given normal attention, perhaps particularly because the aspects are less diluted with that planet? Would you partially ignore the aspects? For example, a personal planet with only sextiles from 5-6 degrees.

'Wide' is of course astrologer-dependant, if you would like a base point:

Sun/Moon aspects - up to 10 degrees
Mercury/Venus/Mars/Jupiter/Saturn - up to 7 degrees
Uranus/Neptune/Pluto - up to 7 degrees

Others use certain orbs per aspect rather than planet etc.

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Unread 05-29-2013, 02:13 AM
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Re: Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

The force implied by the planet aspecting has only a weak effect upon the given planet or house cusp.
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Unread 05-29-2013, 04:34 AM
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Re: Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
When you see a natal chart in which a planet has only wide orbs, how do you consider it? Are these aspects wide but still mildly influential? Are the aspects still 100% valid.

Yes, this is how I personally regard aspects with wide orbs; I will also consider aspects BY SIGN, in a similar manner, IF there are no degree-aspects involving the given planets.
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Unread 05-29-2013, 09:07 AM
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Re: Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

Wide-orbed aspects can sometimes produce very dramatic, life-forming or life-changing effects especially if one or both aspected planets are angular, or otherwise brought to power or emphasis in the chart.

For example, suppose an angular planet (the only one in the chart) and this planet beholds only one aspect, of very wide orb. I would certainly not ignore such an aspect. The angularity of the one planet gives it power in the chart/life, and the wide-orbed aspect, when it perfects by direction and/or progression, can be quite potent. The wide orb shows a slower development.

And I would agree with Dr Farr on aspects by sign. I find it very important to pay attention to Quality and Element relationships between planets even if not in aspect. It is also helpful to look for collection, translation and such things in analyzing aspects. The chart of Bobby Fischer offers an excellent example of this with its square between Mercury and Uranus. The square is cross-sign and occurs in the same Element rather than the same Quality, as is normal with squares. This is very important and significant in the interpretation. Here the aspect is not wide, but does point to the importance of examining the Quality/Element relationship in aspects. Einstein's chart has a similar (but different) cross-sign aspect, an opposition of Jupiter and Uranus (again not of wide orb).

And even though the natal chart is to be considered as "static" (life-long), it is often very informative to observe what the planets do in secondary progression. You might, for example, have a more rapid planet separating from a heavy body, but the day following birth the rapid planet turns retrograde and returns to the heavy body to complete the wide aspect. This changes the way you interpret that aspect. An example of this is Mars-Uranus in the chart of Luis Donaldo Colosio. What appears to be a separating aspect of wide orb (when you look at the natal chart standing alone) in fact grows in power over the years and finally kills him (along with other planets.) [I use a different time of birth from what is given in astrodata, a time that was given to me by a great Mexican astrologer who deals professionally with high-level politicians. The falsification of birth time and birth place by Mexican political families is endemic. My Mexican sister-in-law has 3 birth certificates with different dates and times, all official, and she is an ordinary citizen.]

As another example, I have Jupiter in 12 degrees, stationary direct, ruled by Mercury, and Mercury is Rx at 24 degrees. At the age of 16, by secondary progression, Mercury stations exactly on the trine (partile) to natal Jupiter. Note that I consider the rulership, or reception, in analyzing the aspect and whether or not to consider it effective in the natal chart. In this case I do consider it effective, and life events and personality traits would seem to support this view...and not just the progressed aspect. So I am allowing a 12 degree trine. The two planets, natally, are actually in mutual application rather than separation, and the aspect perfects by progression, besides which Mercury has dominion over Jupiter. The chart tells me I should not discount or ignore this wide aspect. In addition, Mercury and Jupiter rule the meridian angles, increasing their influence in the chart somewhat, and this allowing the wide trine is useful in chart synthesis -- it helps describe the relationship of Midheaven-Nadir, or 10th/4th depending on the house system you use. Although neither planet is itself angular, both are determined toward the angles.

Last edited by greybeard; 05-29-2013 at 10:06 AM.
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Unread 05-30-2013, 01:18 PM
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Re: Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

That's a lot of really good advice and ideas. Much of that I hadn't considered; rulership and reception between the planets concerned, perfection by progression. I think I'll start with family charts and spot the wide orbs.
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Unread 06-11-2013, 03:33 AM
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Re: Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

Several years of viewing many charts daily through the aspect set tweaked to show about 20-ish majors/minors mixed (and ranked in the text listings by orb) has turned me into an orb reductionist (seeing as how such chart style presents virtually no unaspected personal planets and normally more than ten aspects tighter than one or two degrees orb).

Looking wider than that in your family's charts before feeling confident about such super-tight aspects seems to be inviting a big fuzzy shadow into your budding art of synthesis.
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Unread 06-11-2013, 04:17 AM
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Re: Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

Closer aspects are, in almost all cases, likely to exercise greater influence in the life than aspects with wide orb.

In examining those wide aspects, look for events that correspond to the directed or progressed postion. If you find corresponding events, you know the wide aspect is effective; if not, then set it aside.

Consider this. Close aspects -- say under 3 degrees -- activate early in life. Wider aspects activate later. The younger we are when some critical event occurs, the stronger and deeper its imprint on our mind, thus the greater the influence on the life and the less subject to change the aspect is.

How about several planets clustered near some degree (say 23 degrees, with three planets -- one at 24, another at 25, the third at 22 (sign doesn't matter -- the potential for aspect does). Now say we have Moon at 11 degrees. By direction (using 1 degree = 1 year as a rough measure) we find events occurring at ages 11, 13 and 14. This clustering may or may not be significant, determined by other chart factors such as sign and ruler, aspects between the planets, reception and so on. A review of the life history will reveal whether there were significant and important events corresponding to the lunar directions, and will therefore tell us whether or not to allow wide orbs. With time and experience you will be able to adjudicate your own orbs.
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Unread 06-15-2013, 02:42 PM
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Re: Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

Well, I gave the above method a try. When my Moon completed it's aspected square with Saturn, I had a major accident as a child that resulted in some small chipping in teeth. (Saturn, teeth, Moon in 3rd, childhood. It was from a height however, perhaps that's Saturn's conjunction with Uranus). When the Moon completed it's square to Uranus, I think I've found a small accident involving a car, also as a child. When the Moon completes an opposition with Mercury, the Moon's dispositor, and the MC one year afterward, I can't see anything. As the Moon's dispositor, I'm surprised. Mixed results there.

The Moon is my ascendant ruler, I will definitely pay more attention to this.

As for the wide orbs, when a planet progresses to complete an aspect, do you consider it very much a part of your character thereafter?
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Unread 06-15-2013, 03:39 PM
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Re: Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

Yes.

As a planet moves to complete the aspect, things happen on several planes...

Here's an actual example:

Moon in 9th Aquarius applies to Saturn Leo 4th, directional arc = 13 degrees.

Age 13, Mother abandons family, goes to another country with her lover, never to be heard from again.
Native is eldest child, now saddled with duties of caring for smaller siblings.
Note that the catalytic event (abandonment) resulted in an ongoing condition (the new duties).
Moon is significator here, Saturn promittor. The Moon's action brings forth the promise held by Saturn...Look at what happened.

Do you think this event was formative of character? In what way? What were the effects on the native of the mother leaving the family?

Those psychological/character-building effects are described by the same aspect that describes the "event".

A very tight aspect (say an applying quincunx of Moon to Uranus, 35') is extremely powerful and becomes very deeply rooted in the psyche because it occurs so early in life. Such an "accident" [something which is adventitious or of external origin] is said to be "dispositional" (in psychiatry) because it happens early in life and strongly influences character development. An "accident" occuring at age 13 (our wide-orbed opposition of Moon to Saturn in the 4th) is said to be "definitive" (again, in psychiatry) because it occurs later in life and acts as a precipitating or provocative agency.

The quincunx mentioned above occurs (perfects) about 7 months after birth by direction, and also secondary progression.
This means it occurs so early in life that it is "never" available to consciousness, but must be deeply buried in the unconscious, and therefore very powerful in character formation (it is almost innate.)

We can't know the actual details of the event, but we can describe its essential nature or characteristics. What would you say happened when this quincunx perfected?

Last edited by greybeard; 06-15-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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Unread 10-23-2021, 03:28 PM
Taurusmom Taurusmom is offline
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�� some astrologers told me that the square Saturn in Aquarius with the moon in Taurus that my babies twins have are in a wide orb 6degrees and that it won’t influence a lot our relationship (moon is mother)

Because I can’t imagine myself being a cold distant or even strict mom …. And that’s what their answer was…

So you don’t agree with this point of view? How can I interpret than this square. They have also their moon, sun, Venus, mercury in house 12 .

So this combination should makes me a “monster” mother

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Wide-orbed aspects can sometimes produce very dramatic, life-forming or life-changing effects especially if one or both aspected planets are angular, or otherwise brought to power or emphasis in the chart.

For example, suppose an angular planet (the only one in the chart) and this planet beholds only one aspect, of very wide orb. I would certainly not ignore such an aspect. The angularity of the one planet gives it power in the chart/life, and the wide-orbed aspect, when it perfects by direction and/or progression, can be quite potent. The wide orb shows a slower development.

And I would agree with Dr Farr on aspects by sign. I find it very important to pay attention to Quality and Element relationships between planets even if not in aspect. It is also helpful to look for collection, translation and such things in analyzing aspects. The chart of Bobby Fischer offers an excellent example of this with its square between Mercury and Uranus. The square is cross-sign and occurs in the same Element rather than the same Quality, as is normal with squares. This is very important and significant in the interpretation. Here the aspect is not wide, but does point to the importance of examining the Quality/Element relationship in aspects. Einstein's chart has a similar (but different) cross-sign aspect, an opposition of Jupiter and Uranus (again not of wide orb).

And even though the natal chart is to be considered as "static" (life-long), it is often very informative to observe what the planets do in secondary progression. You might, for example, have a more rapid planet separating from a heavy body, but the day following birth the rapid planet turns retrograde and returns to the heavy body to complete the wide aspect. This changes the way you interpret that aspect. An example of this is Mars-Uranus in the chart of Luis Donaldo Colosio. What appears to be a separating aspect of wide orb (when you look at the natal chart standing alone) in fact grows in power over the years and finally kills him (along with other planets.) [I use a different time of birth from what is given in astrodata, a time that was given to me by a great Mexican astrologer who deals professionally with high-level politicians. The falsification of birth time and birth place by Mexican political families is endemic. My Mexican sister-in-law has 3 birth certificates with different dates and times, all official, and she is an ordinary citizen.]

As another example, I have Jupiter in 12 degrees, stationary direct, ruled by Mercury, and Mercury is Rx at 24 degrees. At the age of 16, by secondary progression, Mercury stations exactly on the trine (partile) to natal Jupiter. Note that I consider the rulership, or reception, in analyzing the aspect and whether or not to consider it effective in the natal chart. In this case I do consider it effective, and life events and personality traits would seem to support this view...and not just the progressed aspect. So I am allowing a 12 degree trine. The two planets, natally, are actually in mutual application rather than separation, and the aspect perfects by progression, besides which Mercury has dominion over Jupiter. The chart tells me I should not discount or ignore this wide aspect. In addition, Mercury and Jupiter rule the meridian angles, increasing their influence in the chart somewhat, and this allowing the wide trine is useful in chart synthesis -- it helps describe the relationship of Midheaven-Nadir, or 10th/4th depending on the house system you use. Although neither planet is itself angular, both are determined toward the angles.

Last edited by wilsontc; 10-24-2021 at 04:00 PM.
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  #11  
Unread 10-23-2021, 03:32 PM
Taurusmom Taurusmom is offline
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My babies (twins) have moon in taurus 18 degrees and Saturn in Aquarius 13 degrees.
So in your example when my kids will be 5,5 old I will leave them or I will die ?


My mom has a square moon Saturn too. 3 degrees. Her mom died when she was 99 and was a really warm and a mom who had a big influence in whole her life . Maybe a bit strict sometimes but always present and caring …




Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Yes.

As a planet moves to complete the aspect, things happen on several planes...

Here's an actual example:

Moon in 9th Aquarius applies to Saturn Leo 4th, directional arc = 13 degrees.

Age 13, Mother abandons family, goes to another country with her lover, never to be heard from again.
Native is eldest child, now saddled with duties of caring for smaller siblings.
Note that the catalytic event (abandonment) resulted in an ongoing condition (the new duties).
Moon is significator here, Saturn promittor. The Moon's action brings forth the promise held by Saturn...Look at what happened.

Do you think this event was formative of character? In what way? What were the effects on the native of the mother leaving the family?

Those psychological/character-building effects are described by the same aspect that describes the "event".

A very tight aspect (say an applying quincunx of Moon to Uranus, 35') is extremely powerful and becomes very deeply rooted in the psyche because it occurs so early in life. Such an "accident" [something which is adventitious or of external origin] is said to be "dispositional" (in psychiatry) because it happens early in life and strongly influences character development. An "accident" occuring at age 13 (our wide-orbed opposition of Moon to Saturn in the 4th) is said to be "definitive" (again, in psychiatry) because it occurs later in life and acts as a precipitating or provocative agency.

The quincunx mentioned above occurs (perfects) about 7 months after birth by direction, and also secondary progression.
This means it occurs so early in life that it is "never" available to consciousness, but must be deeply buried in the unconscious, and therefore very powerful in character formation (it is almost innate.)

We can't know the actual details of the event, but we can describe its essential nature or characteristics. What would you say happened when this quincunx perfected?

Last edited by wilsontc; 10-24-2021 at 04:00 PM.
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  #12  
Unread 10-26-2021, 07:54 PM
OuterPlanets89 OuterPlanets89 is offline
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Re: Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

Wide-orb hard aspects are also triggered by transits.

Also, I've found that "incomplete configurations" like say, a T-Square but with one planet being too far in aspect (i.e. 10 deg) to complete the formation, often has dangerous effects (with malefics involved), especially when triggered by a transit.

This may be too small of a sample size, but everyone I know who died early in an accident had an "incomplete" T-Square involving Mars, Pluto and another planet. One had Mars in Taurus (20d), Pluto in Scorpio (15d) and Venus in Aquarius (25d). Normally, Venus would be the outlet/apex of the intense Mars/Pluto opposition, but with it squaring Mars and being a little too far from Pluto, it creates a broken, or inconsistent string of energy. The accident happened with Jupiter transiting at Scorpio (22d), which activated all 3 planets.
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Unread 10-26-2021, 08:57 PM
Taurusmom Taurusmom is offline
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This is terryfying meÖ because I donít know if I or my kids or my husband have such kind of incompleted T square
Omg 😱


QUOTE=OuterPlanets89;1136345]Wide-orb hard aspects are also triggered by transits.

Also, I've found that "incomplete configurations" like say, a T-Square but with one planet being too far in aspect (i.e. 10 deg) to complete the formation, often has dangerous effects (with malefics involved), especially when triggered by a transit.

This may be too small of a sample size, but everyone I know who died early in an accident had an "incomplete" T-Square involving Mars, Pluto and another planet. One had Mars in Taurus (20d), Pluto in Scorpio (15d) and Venus in Aquarius (25d). Normally, Venus would be the outlet/apex of the intense Mars/Pluto opposition, but with it squaring Mars and being a little too far from Pluto, it creates a broken, or inconsistent string of energy. The accident happened with Jupiter transiting at Scorpio (22d), which activated all 3 planets.[/QUOTE]
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Unread 10-26-2021, 08:58 PM
Taurusmom Taurusmom is offline
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What if Mars and Pluto are in a wide conjunction and are opposing sun and Venus ?


QUOTE=Taurusmom;1136357]This is terryfying meÖ because I donít know if I or my kids or my husband have such kind of incompleted T square
Omg 😱


QUOTE=OuterPlanets89;1136345]Wide-orb hard aspects are also triggered by transits.

Also, I've found that "incomplete configurations" like say, a T-Square but with one planet being too far in aspect (i.e. 10 deg) to complete the formation, often has dangerous effects (with malefics involved), especially when triggered by a transit.

This may be too small of a sample size, but everyone I know who died early in an accident had an "incomplete" T-Square involving Mars, Pluto and another planet. One had Mars in Taurus (20d), Pluto in Scorpio (15d) and Venus in Aquarius (25d). Normally, Venus would be the outlet/apex of the intense Mars/Pluto opposition, but with it squaring Mars and being a little too far from Pluto, it creates a broken, or inconsistent string of energy. The accident happened with Jupiter transiting at Scorpio (22d), which activated all 3 planets.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
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Unread 10-26-2021, 11:31 PM
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Re: Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

My dear Taurusmom. This truly is not what this studying forum is for, to terrorize mothers.

I am sorry for this post, which you are not able to understand completely.

I will assure you that it does not necessarily have anything to do with your life or the life of your family. And this likely is not a good thread to continue down. I say this to you with concern and appreciation for the vulnerability you are feeling right now.
Please do take good care.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurusmom View Post
This is terryfying me… because I don’t know if I or my kids or my husband have such kind of incompleted T square
Omg ��


Quote:
Originally Posted by OuterPlanets89 View Post
Wide-orb hard aspects are also triggered by transits.

Also, I've found that "incomplete configurations" like say, a T-Square but with one planet being too far in aspect (i.e. 10 deg) to complete the formation, often has dangerous effects (with malefics involved), especially when triggered by a transit.

This may be too small of a sample size, but everyone I know who died early in an accident had an "incomplete" T-Square involving Mars, Pluto and another planet. One had Mars in Taurus (20d), Pluto in Scorpio (15d) and Venus in Aquarius (25d). Normally, Venus would be the outlet/apex of the intense Mars/Pluto opposition, but with it squaring Mars and being a little too far from Pluto, it creates a broken, or inconsistent string of energy. The accident happened with Jupiter transiting at Scorpio (22d), which activated all 3 planets.
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Unread 10-26-2021, 11:33 PM
Taurusmom Taurusmom is offline
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I study a lot of astrology the last months
But donít understand everything yet. Sorry for my spontaneous reaction
Have a nice evening





UOTE=IleneK;1136384]My dear Taurusmom. This truly is not what this studying forum is for, to terrorize mothers. I am sorry for this posting which you are not able to understand completely. I will assure you that it does not necessarily have anything to do with your life or the life of your family.[/QUOTE]
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Unread 10-27-2021, 12:14 AM
OuterPlanets89 OuterPlanets89 is offline
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Re: Interpreting Planets with wide Orbs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurusmom View Post
I study a lot of astrology the last months
But don’t understand everything yet. Sorry for my spontaneous reaction
Have a nice evening
No reason to worry. Even if you did have an "incomplete T-Square," I wouldn't freak out -- because I don't see astrology as deterministic (though Vedic astrologers might disagree). Not to mention, that's just an observation I've made from charts I've seen. I have plenty of "dangerous" aspects in my chart and I'm fine so far.

If you're just starting out, I suggest trying to understand how your energies interact (maybe with a professional). Many of us have explosive (or dangerous) potentials in our charts, but developing self-awareness quells most of the concerns that come with them.
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