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  #101  
Unread 03-28-2019, 05:40 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Can't understand whether you experience cognitive dissonance, or just trying to win some sympathies from the first camp.



It is quote from a previous post in this thread. I have heard and thought this elsewhere.
I don't know what you mean here. Religious people wouldn't presume to imagine they could read the Mind of God.

Atheists wouldn't believe in God in the first place.

Next.

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  #102  
Unread 03-28-2019, 05:42 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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(B) had better realize how utterly incompatible it is with your beliefs in traditional astrology.
Like?

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There's some quantum stuff in here somewhere, about how the observer changes the nature of the observed.
Mhm, there's more of ''quantum stuff'' in my astrology though.
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  #103  
Unread 03-28-2019, 06:13 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Waybread, we have already established that you do not accept the validity of astrology, so I am not even going to try to win you over another field (even with much more reputation).

But I am especially curious to see what ''utter incompatibility'' do you see of its theories with Ptolemy's determination from the seed, since I somehow got the opposite idea.
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  #104  
Unread 03-29-2019, 02:21 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Petosiris, What do you mean by "the validity of astrology"? We apparently mean different things by it.

And please don't be flippant. I've been reading all sorts of charts for people here and at Astrodienst since 2007. Why on earth would someone do that if she though astrology were invalid? Your assertion makes no sense.

I referred to the incompatibility of your dismissal of cultural explanations in favour of your biological determinism vs. your belief in astrology. I didn't mention Ptolemy.
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  #105  
Unread 03-29-2019, 02:28 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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I referred to the incompatibility of your dismissal of cultural explanations in favour of your biological determinism vs. your belief in astrology. I didn't mention Ptolemy.
What do you mean? How do you see genetics as incompatible with astrology, when it is precisely the determination from the seed, which is the core of genethlialogy?
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  #106  
Unread 03-29-2019, 02:43 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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What do you mean? How do you see genetics as incompatible with astrology, when it is precisely the determination from the seed, which is the core of genethlialogy?
Do you see the possibility of creating an astrological chart from a strand of DNA? or a strand of DNA from an astrological chart?
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  #107  
Unread 03-29-2019, 02:50 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Do you see the possibility of creating an astrological chart from a strand of DNA? or a strand of DNA from an astrological chart?
It has to be moderately possible (not in all respects) with the fertilisation, otherwise we could add nativities to the list.
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  #108  
Unread 03-29-2019, 03:13 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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It has to be moderately possible (not in all respects) with the fertilisation, otherwise we could add nativities to the list.
That would be a maybe? It's what I derive from reading A T Mann's "A Round Art"
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  #109  
Unread 03-29-2019, 03:19 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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That would be a maybe? It's what I derive from reading A T Mann's "A Round Art"
It's a tentative hypothesis at least. How do you reconcile what we know about life with your astrology?
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  #110  
Unread 03-29-2019, 03:28 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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It's a tentative hypothesis at least. How do you reconcile what we know about life with your astrology?
I am not sure that I understand your question?
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  #111  
Unread 03-29-2019, 03:31 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

I believe that thinking human being have been on earth much longer than it has been accredited them. I believe that the pyramids are much older than I am told.

Belief is not provable though......

I believe that astrology is the older than all religion, and that all religions are branches of the tree.....astrology is the root of religion.....

But, that's me......

Last edited by Opal; 03-29-2019 at 03:35 AM.
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  #112  
Unread 03-29-2019, 03:36 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

What do you believe?
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  #113  
Unread 03-29-2019, 03:37 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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What do you believe?
I believe that what I can make the best reasoning of.
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  #114  
Unread 03-29-2019, 03:40 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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I believe that what I can make the best reasoning of.
Do you follow an organized belief system? or do you create your own, dependant on your personal reasoning?
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  #115  
Unread 03-29-2019, 03:44 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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What do you mean? How do you see genetics as incompatible with astrology, when it is precisely the determination from the seed, which is the core of genethlialogy?
This is way too metaphorical for me. If a theory isn't necessary, I tend to look for one with more explanatory power.
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  #116  
Unread 03-29-2019, 04:02 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

I don't, and somewhat.

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I believe that thinking human being have been on earth much longer than it has been accredited them. I believe that the pyramids are much older than I am told.

Belief is not provable though......

I believe that astrology is the older than all religion, and that all religions are branches of the tree.....astrology is the root of religion.....

But, that's me......
My opinion is that beliefs can be beneficial when there is not enough factual information to fill the gap, as belief too is some kind of knowledge. If there is enough evidence for me to establish that the world is more than 6000 years old, I am not going to believe the evidence of a holy book, I am going to belief my reason and the reason of others I trust through it.
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  #117  
Unread 03-29-2019, 04:03 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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This is way too metaphorical for me. If a theory isn't necessary, I tend to look for one with more explanatory power.
What do you mean its metaphorical? The planets could influence human life in both direct and indirect ways, and they obviously do.
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  #118  
Unread 03-29-2019, 04:12 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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What do you mean its metaphorical? The planets could influence human life in both direct and indirect ways, and they obviously do.
I would say, the planets influence life in both direct and indirect ways........
animal and mineral.....and apparently spiritual......
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  #119  
Unread 03-29-2019, 05:27 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

So Ptolemy talks about seeds in Tetrabiblos 1.2 as a metaphor for a human life and horoscope at birth.

But then he goes on to talk about the limits to his seed metaphor, due to the differences in the place of birth in countries, child-rearing and "customs" of different places.

Customs=cultural.

Although Ptolemy works out an astrology for different regions in book II, in sec. I.2 his argument is that we cannot predict everything about a human life from a simple horoscope reading. We have to look at both the horoscope and the native's non-horoscopic circumstances. We cannot "demand everything of the art" of astrology, because there are "instances wherein it could not provide the full answer."

He notes that astrologers often make mistakes, because the topic is so vast.

"...we should not object to astrologers using as a basis for calculation nationality, country, and rearing, or any other already existing accidental qualities."
(Robbins transl, -- 17-19.

So Ptolemy himself says that the seed metaphor only goes so far.

In I.3 he makes a similar argument about predictive astrology for nativities. An individual's fate and life can be greatly affected by large-scale disasters. Just as a doctor can mitigate the worst effects of a disease or even cure it, an individual can mitigate pending individual misfortunes.

Of course, if I wrote like this, you'd say I didn't accept the validity of astrology.
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  #120  
Unread 03-29-2019, 05:48 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

You still don't want to address the real issue, which is that the planets influence and mirror most terrestrial events, which is the definition of astrology (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/astrology).

Quote:
So Ptolemy talks about seeds in Tetrabiblos 1.2 as a metaphor for a human life and horoscope at birth.

But then he goes on to talk about the limits to his seed metaphor, due to the differences in the place of birth in countries, child-rearing and "customs" of different places.
Yes, but he ascribes the influence of race to astrological factors, for example the Ethiopians are burned by the Sun, the Scythians are nourished by the Moon, this in 2.2. He even ascribes ethnicities and particular countries to astrological governors, for example the nations of Italiy, Apulia, Gaul and Sicily are masterful, benevolent, and co‑operative because of Leo, this in 2.3. In the previous chapter, he rightly points out that:

Quote:
And now in each of these general regions certain special conditions of character and customs naturally ensue... so also would one discover special traits in each arising from the natural familiarity of their particular climes with the stars in the signs of the zodiac. - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/2A*.html#2
So two thousand years before sociobiology, Posidonius and Ptolemy pointed out that cultures and customs are based on heredity and (geographical) environment (which they rightly pointed out to formed from astronomy). I think that the current concept of ''culture'' as a top down approach did not arise up until the Enlightenment (which is neither DIT, nor sociobiology). It is a logical fallacy, which these ancient philosophers did not fell into.

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Customs=cultural.
Indeed, I am not biological determinist in the sense that I ignore environment, which is geographical culture.

Quote:
Although Ptolemy works out an astrology for different regions in book II, in sec. I.2 his argument is that we cannot predict everything about a human life from a simple horoscope reading. We have to look at both the horoscope and the native's non-horoscopic circumstances. We cannot "demand everything of the art" of astrology, because there are "instances wherein it could not provide the full answer."
Waybread, this is precisely what I argue throughout this thread. You could take some effort to read the posts though.

Quote:
He notes that astrologers often make mistakes, because the topic is so vast.
Yes.

Quote:
"...we should not object to astrologers using as a basis for calculation nationality, country, and rearing, or any other already existing accidental qualities."
(Robbins transl, -- 17-19.

So Ptolemy himself says that the seed metaphor only goes so far.
I never claimed it did. It is the synthesis of biological determinism with the effect of the environment, from which we conjecture human affairs. And I say, that the first processes are dependent on physics, that is by physical reductionism.

Quote:
In I.3 he makes a similar argument about predictive astrology for nativities. An individual's fate and life can be greatly affected by large-scale disasters. Just as a doctor can mitigate the worst effects of a disease or even cure it, an individual can mitigate pending individual misfortunes.
Which is something that was accepted by everyone in classical astrology, that people that perish in disasters do not have all their prorogators destroyed, but simply fall under the influence of universal event and influence. And I gave similar arguments for the latter problem, at least in relation to ''electional astrology'', see my previous correspondence with Dirius.

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Of course, if I wrote like this, you'd say I didn't accept the validity of astrology.
I don't know what you are talking about what you are talking about, since I have already restated these arguments in..., oh wait you deleted the thread. Nevertheless, I have developed further some of these theories, concepts and methods here:
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=125418
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=125435
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=125479
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=125501

Last edited by petosiris; 03-29-2019 at 06:42 AM.
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  #121  
Unread 03-29-2019, 07:00 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Gee, If I hadn't revived an old thread of mine in 'Chat" i might have missed this little roadside distraction. What a elaborate effort that has been made to impress all here. Reminds me of the travelling Medicine Shows of bygone days.

By the way, if you're going to use ten dollar words, learn to spell them correctly, or better yet, get a spell check app.
The word is spelled "Propagator" and not prorogator.. unless you meant that Poor o' gator that is left after one drains the swamp?
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  #122  
Unread 03-29-2019, 07:02 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
Gee, If I hadn't revived an old thread of mine in 'Chat" i might have missed this little roadside distraction. What aN elaborate effort that has been made to impress all here. Reminds me of the travelling Medicine Shows of bygone days.

By the way, if you're going to use ten dollar words, learn to spell them correctly, or better yet, get a spell check app.
The word is spelled "Propagator" and not prorogator.. unless you meant that Poor o' gator that is left after one drains the swamp?
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/de.../us/prorogator

Gee, another offended, are we?

Last edited by petosiris; 03-29-2019 at 07:05 AM.
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  #123  
Unread 03-29-2019, 07:15 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

People should be more grateful for the time I waste here.
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  #124  
Unread 03-29-2019, 07:25 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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I am grateful for Ptolemy calling my months of labour on lots ''waste of time'', and I am grateful for Morinus telling I was using ''fictitious'' systems. I actually was an idiot, but now my vision is clear.
I want to remind the reader of the intention of this thread, which is to avoid making the same mistakes as I did.
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  #125  
Unread 03-29-2019, 07:46 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
Gee, If I hadn't revived an old thread of mine in 'Chat" i might have missed this little roadside distraction. What a elaborate effort that has been made to impress all here. Reminds me of the travelling Medicine Shows of bygone days.

By the way, if you're going to use ten dollar words, learn to spell them correctly, or better yet, get a spell check app.
The word is spelled "Propagator" and not prorogator.. unless you meant that Poor o' gator that is left after one drains the swamp?
Never mind. I've since figured out what word you have used is one of Latin and so obscure to most I didn't recognize it at first myself.
In fact I haven't seen that word used in years.

I only say this and it will be my only reply to this nonsense.
I only utilize what is proven and by that I mean what I was able to prove to myself to be effective a technique.
If it doesn't work, and after repeated attempts in various charts, I toss it aside. if it proves to be contrary to what I've proven to work, I throw it out with the rest of the garbage.

Some of what you are extolling I threw out long ago, some of which you are condemning I proved to be valid quite some time ago.

I would no more look to an ancient Greek for Astronmical/Astrological advice as I would look to one for Medical advice.

A new age is upon us, the dinosaurs are dying out and with them the notion they are King of the Land, Stars or whatever ...will die with them.
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