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Modern Astrology For discussions on Modern Astrology only. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists. Specifically it relies on psychological, evolutionary, karmic, and non-western interpretation approaches and includes Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, and non-Ptolemaic aspects. The focus is more on psychological chart interpretation instead of prediction.)


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  #1  
Unread 03-21-2021, 05:54 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Possible pre-Ptolemaic reasons for the Sign rulerships in Modern astrology

Whereas, the 5 planets ruled two each. What was the rationale?

Aside from making a very nifty mandala, that is!


Last edited by david starling; 03-21-2021 at 06:00 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 03-21-2021, 06:17 AM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

personally, i've always thought of the sun and moon as the same planet
the sun is just the masculine version, and the moon is the feminine version

all of the other traditional planets have masculine and feminine versions of themselves
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  #3  
Unread 03-21-2021, 06:40 AM
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Smile Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
personally, i've always thought of the sun and moon as the same planet
the sun is just the masculine version, and the moon is the feminine version

all of the other traditional planets have masculine and feminine versions of themselves
There's a much simpler explanation, one that doesn't involve gender.

In ancient Sumeria, the Moon was masculine, father of Inanna/Ishtar, the original version of the planet Venus. As far as recorded history goes, those were the original personas of the Moon and Venus.

In the ancient Nordic culture, the Sun was viewed as feminine.

Ptolemy didn't create the rulerships, they were already in place. He relied heavily on gender for his explanational theory, even to the point of claiming the Sun was "too masculine" to rule a feminine Sign, and the Moon, vice versa.

Why ignore the obvious? It's about their movement, compared to that of the planets:

Moon and Sun, one type of movement, Direct, so they each rule one Sign.

Planets, two types of movement, Direct and Retrograde, so they ruled two Signs each.

Last edited by david starling; 03-21-2021 at 06:46 AM.
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Unread 03-21-2021, 07:11 AM
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Smile Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

The RATE of movement also mattered. Separating the categories, Direct-only first, it's Sign #4 ruled by the fast Moon, followed by #5 ruled by the Sun.Then from faster to slower ruling planet, it's Merc ruling #6, Venus #7, Mars #8, Jupiter #9, and Sat ruled #10, Sign of the winter "Solstice", which means "at a standstill".

Then, comes the term "tropic", which means " turning", changing direction and going back the other way. Saturn is where the sequence stopped, and turned back. So Saturn ruled both Signs #10 and #11. Then #12 went to Jup, #1 went to Mars, #2 went to Venus, and #3 went to Merc.
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  #5  
Unread 03-21-2021, 07:35 AM
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Smile Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Why choose the Sun to rule Sign #5? Because, once that's the choice, all of the others fall into place using a numbering pattern.

Aristarchus of Samos is the first Greek known to predicate a Heliocentric model of a Solar System. This concept eventually passed into the astrological component of the scientific community in Alexandria.

And, although we are based on the Planet Earth, and therefore use an Earth-centered model, that doesn't cancel out the other, Heliocentric model.

It's my belief that the Alexandrian astrologers took the obvious fact that the fiery Sun is fixed in the center of the Solar system, and applied it Geocentrically to Sign #5, Fixed-Fire.

And then, using the aforementioned numbering pattern, based on directionality and rate of movement, all the Signs got their rulers. Which works well on the intuitive level, even though it was determined by numbering pattern.
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  #6  
Unread 03-21-2021, 07:47 AM
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Smile Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HonourAndDevotion View Post
lemme ask why sun exalts in 10th house but doesn't in Capricorn.
why? why? why?
Is that from a Traditional pattern? Because once we move on beyond Saturn, and there's an available ruler for Sign #11, that pattern would be broken.

Time for a new pattern, in accordance with the approach of the new Age.

Last edited by david starling; 03-21-2021 at 08:43 AM.
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Unread 03-21-2021, 10:09 AM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

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Originally Posted by HonourAndDevotion View Post
lemme ask why sun exalts in 10th house but doesn't in Capricorn.
why? why? why?
i thought sun joyed in the 9th house
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  #8  
Unread 03-21-2021, 06:14 PM
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Smile Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
i thought sun joyed in the 9th house
What's the pattern for "joys"?

It's trad, and I'm not familiar with it.

I do know that in trad, H12 is Saturn's Happy Place.
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  #9  
Unread 03-21-2021, 07:28 PM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Joys - Mercury in 1, Moon in 3, Venus in 5, Mars in 6, Sun in 9, Jupiter in 11, Saturn in 12.
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  #10  
Unread 03-21-2021, 07:58 PM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HonourAndDevotion View Post
who said that ?
sun=saturn, rules capricorn
moon=uranus, rules aquarius
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Unread 03-21-2021, 08:03 PM
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Smile Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Joys - Mercury in 1, Moon in 3, Venus in 5, Mars in 6, Sun in 9, Jupiter in 11, Saturn in 12.
Thanks Oddity. I was hoping you'd provide the information.

Being so anchored in the Modern numbering pattern, Aries through to Pisces, 1 through 12, and connecting (NOT equating) the Sign numbers with the House numbers, it's impossible for me to discern a pattern regarding the "Joys" as listed.

Also, "Joys" is usually left out of Modern entirely. But, Saturn's enjoyment of bumming out the 12th House makes perfect sense!

Last edited by david starling; 03-21-2021 at 08:06 PM.
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Unread 03-21-2021, 08:39 PM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


Thanks Oddity. I was hoping you'd provide the information.

Being so anchored in the Modern numbering pattern, Aries through to Pisces, 1 through 12, and connecting (NOT equating) the Sign numbers with the House numbers, it's impossible for me to discern a pattern regarding the "Joys" as listed.

Also, "Joys" is usually left out of Modern entirely. But, Saturn's enjoyment of bumming out the 12th House makes perfect sense!

This thread is on our traditional board
Modern is not part of discussion
the two boards are mutually exclusive






.
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  #13  
Unread 03-21-2021, 08:47 PM
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Smile Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
This thread is on our traditional board
Modern is not part of discussion
the two boards are mutually exclusive






.

Modern is derived from Traditional, and it's instructive to see what was kept (like, 12 equal Signs as named, Cardinal, Fixed, Mutable, the 4 Elements, in order, Squares, Trines, Conjunctions, etc.), and what was not kept.

In contrast, Traditional obviously didn't get any input from Modern, so this discussion has no place in the Trad Forum.

I'll ask a moderator to move it, since I somehow inadvertently put it in Trad.

Last edited by david starling; 03-21-2021 at 08:49 PM.
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  #14  
Unread 03-21-2021, 08:58 PM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


Modern is derived from Traditional, and it's instructive to see what was kept (like, 12 equal Signs as named, Cardinal, Fixed, Mutable, the 4 Elements, in order, Squares, Trines, Conjunctions, etc.), and what was not kept.

In contrast, Traditional obviously didn't get any input from Modern, so this discussion has no place in the Trad Forum.

I'll ask a moderator to move it, since I somehow inadvertently put it in Trad.
a moderator may have moved it from Modern

which makes sense
because

the thread title long predates Modern Astrology board
which dates from 1800's
i.e. Ancient astrology PREDATES 1800's
as clearly stated on the rules of the Modern board
perhaps the thread belongs on one of our general boards

neither Modern nor Traditional



.
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  #15  
Unread 03-21-2021, 08:59 PM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HonourAndDevotion View Post

lemme ask why sun exalts in 10th house
but doesn't in Capricorn.
why? why? why?


Because IN ANCIENT TIMES ....The Thema Mundi
an Hellenistic Era Natural Wheel
illustrates fundamental astrological principles.
In addition, it reveals the inner geometrical elegance
that gives these fundamentals their meaning and definition.
For instance

Mars is associated with Aries and Scorpio
and to a lesser extent with Capricorn...." Douglas Noblehorse



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Unread 03-21-2021, 09:14 PM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
a moderator may have moved it from Modern

which makes sense
because

the thread title long predates Modern Astrology board
Apparently, a moderator did, but the OP informed us that he meant it to be specifically about modern astrology. I've moved it to Modern at his request.
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Last edited by Osamenor; 03-21-2021 at 09:16 PM.
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Unread 03-21-2021, 09:26 PM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post


Apparently, a moderator did, but the OP informed us
that he meant it to be specifically about modern astrology.
I've moved it to Modern at his request.

Thanks for explaining - since the thread title

specifically asks a question regarding Ancient astrology
which clearly is not Modern
so then obviously
comment regarding Ancient astrology is invited
however
Ancient astrology is older than 1800's
and the rules of Modern board clearly instruct us
"....Modern Astrology For discussions on Modern Astrology only
. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined
as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists...")




.
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Unread 03-21-2021, 09:38 PM
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Smile Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Thanks for explaining - since the thread title

specifically asks a question regarding Ancient astrology
which clearly is not Modern
so then obviously
comment regarding Ancient astrology is invited
however
Ancient astrology is older than 1800's
and the rules of Modern board clearly instruct us
"....Modern Astrology For discussions on Modern Astrology only
. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined
as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists...")




.

It's about the possible pre-Ptolemaic reasons for the Sign rulerships now fully accepted in Modernistic astrology, including using input from Heliocentrism, which was definitely known in ancient times.

Last edited by david starling; 03-21-2021 at 09:40 PM.
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Unread 03-21-2021, 09:56 PM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


It's about the possible pre-Ptolemaic reasons

for the Sign rulerships now fully accepted in Modernistic astrology,

including using input from Heliocentrism,

which was definitely known in ancient times.

Interesting

pre-Ptolemaic astrologers
long predate the 1800's
the start date of Modern astrology stated on rules of this board


i.e.
Ptolemy died two thousand years ago
pre-Ptolemaic is long before the 1800's




.
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Unread 03-21-2021, 10:11 PM
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Smile Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Interesting

pre-Ptolemaic astrologers
long predate the 1800's
the start date of Modern astrology stated on rules of this board


i.e.
Ptolemy died two thousand years ago
pre-Ptolemaic is long before the 1800's




.

Aristarchus of Samos, and Hipparchus of Nicea, as well as unnamed astrologers included in the Alexandrian scientific community, predated Ptolemy. His theories were mostly his own, concerning astrological precepts already in existence.
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Unread 03-22-2021, 11:43 AM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
It's about the possible pre-Ptolemaic reasons for the Sign rulerships now fully accepted in Modernistic astrology, including using input from Heliocentrism, which was definitely known in ancient times.
[Renamed the Thread based on this thread description, since the reason it was in Modern astrology was confusing - Moderator]
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  #22  
Unread 03-22-2021, 11:01 PM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Still haven't seen a convincing use of the joys in a chart reading other than musing or adding dramatic flair to make the text look palatable.

With its natural placement in a wheel and its apparent symmetries and groupings it seems like it's more of a pedagogical tool.
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Unread 03-22-2021, 11:02 PM
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Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Squares, Trines, Conjunctions, etc.)
Well does it work or not? Test out on horary and see if the Moon is actually VoC or not with a quintile
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Unread 03-23-2021, 12:13 AM
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Smile Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

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Well does it work or not? Test out on horary and see if the Moon is actually VoC or not with a quintile
Ask Tikana.
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Unread 03-23-2021, 05:26 AM
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Smile Re: Possible pre-Ptolemaic reasons for the Sign rulerships in Modern astrology

C.t. asked me to explain the 12/12 patterns, so it wouldn't look haphazard and arbitrary, or strictly intuitive.

For now, I will stop just prior to the Modernistic 10/12 pattern which went beyond Saturn. Again, I used a numbering sequence, relying on the Hipparchian concept of Aries as Sign #1 and on to Pisces as #12, in Direct-motion.

First, using the fact that the Moon and Sun are unidirectional, they rule only one Sign each, and the planets being bidirectional, rule 2 Signs each.

Then, using the concept of the Heliocentric model, proposed by Aristarchus and known to the astrologers of the Alexandrian scientific community through the tutelage of Hipparchus, I used its most obvious feature, the fixed, fiery Sun, to designate the #5Fixed-Fire sign as its Domicile-sign.

Then, arranging all 7 ancient rulers into their two categories and starting with the faster moving rulers in both:

Sign#4Moon-#5Sun/#6Mercury-#7Venus-#8Mars-#9Jupiter-#10Saturn, and, it comes to a standstill with 10th-sign Capricorn as Saturn's Domicile-sign, with the full sequence bounded by the two signs of Solstice, #s 4&10.

"Solstice" can be generally interpreted as reaching a limit, and stopping: We've run out of planets in the ancient sense. Then comes the word that gave tropical astrology its name: The Greek word "tropikos", turning around, and going in the opposite direction.

So, having stopped at Saturn, and starting back, Saturn gets its 2nd Domicile-sign, #11, followed by Jupiter's 2nd, Sign #12, then #1 for Mars, #2 for Venus, and finally, #3 for Mercury.

And, thus matters stood, until the discovery of a star-like planet, outside the orbit of Saturn, which could be seen without a telescope, but which had been cataloged as a faint star due to its slow movement: The "still, small voice" of the Heavens.

Last edited by david starling; 03-23-2021 at 06:16 AM.
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