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  #1  
Unread 06-09-2020, 10:41 AM
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How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

I'm hoping some kind soul(s) will help me understand how this works.

I'm looking at a chart with the sun in Aries in the 2nd house and Chiron in Scorpio in the 9th house, and Astrotheme and Astrodient are saying the connection is an opposition, not inconjunct.

How can a cardinal sign be in opposition to a fixed sign?


Please help me. Here's the chart if you need to see it:


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Unread 06-09-2020, 10:52 AM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlightSonata View Post

I'm hoping some kind soul(s) will help me understand how this works.

How can a cardinal sign be in opposition to a fixed sign?

Please help me.

a Cardingal SIGN is NOT IN OPPOSITION to a Fixed SIGN
Aries is IN AVERSION to Scorpio


Cassandra Tyndall on the Astrology of Aspects and Aversions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtqwobgKo6U


A Study in Aversion
the traditional astrology concept of aversion
and how it plays out in interpreting a chart.
In traditional astrology aspects are primarily by whole sign
and the only aspects that are used are the classical Ptolemaic aspects
– sextile, square, trine, opposition.
Signs that are not in a classical aspect with each other
– either 30 degrees or 150 degrees
are said to be in aversion
meaning they are turned away from each other

out of the line of vision
and
hence out of contact
Aversion as an interpretive concept
can play out in some interesting and significant ways
- for example look at the chart of
the founder of psychoanalysis, Sigmund Freud.
https://studentofastrology.com/2015/...y-in-aversion/
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Unread 06-09-2020, 12:16 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Actually the sun/Chiron aspect is very wide, 8 degrees, so I would even question how effective it is. If they consider this an active aspect then also Jupiter/south node should be considered, which is just as wide.
More important is the Chiron almost exactly inconjunct mercury/mars/moon.
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Unread 06-09-2020, 06:05 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Because aspects are geometry, not sign based. Oppositions are +/-180°. Quincunxes (inconjuncts) are +/-150°.

But this Sun/Chiron should not count as an opposition since it is over 7.5° wide involving an asteroid.
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Unread 06-10-2020, 11:11 AM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Thanks for schooling me, y'all. This is a lot for me to digest, and it's also humbling because I thought I had a basic idea of how oppositions work. And then, BAM! I get my hands on a chart that creates a bump in the road, so to speak. And I learn that the rules are different when asteroids are involved and that orbs (that i'm still trying to learn about and commit to memory) need to be considered. And if the orb is too wide, the confusing aspect might not be what it appears to be and/or need to be considered at all.
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Unread 06-10-2020, 04:10 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
Because aspects are geometry, not sign based. Oppositions are +/-180°. Quincunxes (inconjuncts) are +/-150°.

But this Sun/Chiron should not count as an opposition since it is over 7.5° wide involving an asteroid.
I would respectfully challenge the assertion that aspects are geometric, if, by that, you mean numerically, or degree based.

In the evolution of astrological thought, I would strongly suggest that aspects first were defined by sign long before geometry/degrees were applied to determine aspect:
That is, conjunctions were in the same sign.
Trines were signs of the same element.
Squares/oppositions were in signs of the same mode [ie, the bodies were all in fixed signs, or all in cardinal signs, etc.]

I personally think that aspects by sign capture the energies that create the traditional effect of the conjunction, trine, sq and opposition. For example, planets which are close, but in adjacent signs, have an adverse relationship, are disjunct, and lack the cohesion that two planets in the same sign characterizes. Planets that are trine by sign do share the same element; when trine by degree but not sign, they engage in the energy of a square.

I think it may be unwise to dismiss the important symbolic meaning of sign-determined aspect relations between planets.
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  #7  
Unread 06-10-2020, 05:57 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

No, not dismiss them.
However, it can happen that a planet in the last degree opposes one in the first degree of its sign. Which adds weight to the force intrinsic in an opposition.
As you say, they have nothing in common.
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Unread 06-10-2020, 08:38 PM
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Smile Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Consider the Quincunx. How does that fit into the "nothing in common" theory?
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Unread 06-10-2020, 08:40 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Here as well. It is not considered an "easy" aspect because of this.
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Unread 06-10-2020, 09:00 PM
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Smile Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

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Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Here as well. It is not considered an "easy" aspect because of this.
Strong, though?
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Unread 06-10-2020, 09:01 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Meek.
It's like walking into a room where you don't know anyone.
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Unread 06-10-2020, 09:19 PM
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Smile Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Meek.
It's like walking into a room where you don't know anyone.
They do have one thing that is shared: The degree of the Sign each is in, which is usually required to be within 2 degrees or less.

Here's something else--a Trine consists of agreement in Element, but a disagreement on Modality. And, a Square, is the reverse, agreement in Modality, but disagreement in Element. Why is the first matchup considered harmonious, while the latter is considered dissonant? Seems like the geometry is the reason for that, not the Sign-qualities, since Squares involve geometric opposition by degree, and Trines do not.

Last edited by david starling; 06-10-2020 at 09:27 PM.
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Unread 06-10-2020, 09:25 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

*

Often referred to by Modernist astrologers as Quincunx
is in fact
traditionally known as Disjunct
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Unread 06-10-2020, 09:29 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

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Originally Posted by IleneK View Post




I would respectfully challenge the assertion that aspects are geometric, if, by that, you mean numerically, or degree based.

In the evolution of astrological thought, I would strongly suggest that aspects first were defined by sign long before geometry/degrees were applied to determine aspect:
That is, conjunctions were in the same sign.
Trines were signs of the same element.
Squares/oppositions were in signs of the same mode [ie, the bodies were all in fixed signs, or all in cardinal signs, etc.]

I personally think that aspects by sign capture the energies that create the traditional effect of the conjunction, trine, sq and opposition. For example, planets which are close, but in adjacent signs, have an adverse relationship, are disjunct, and lack the cohesion that two planets in the same sign characterizes. Planets that are trine by sign do share the same element; when trine by degree but not sign, they engage in the energy of a square.

I think it may be unwise to dismiss the important symbolic meaning of sign-determined aspect relations between planets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post


No, not dismiss them.
However, it can happen that
a planet in the last degree opposes one in the first degree of its sign.

Which adds weight to the force intrinsic in an opposition.
As you say, they have nothing in common.

hence
opposition IS by SIGN
as well as OCCASIONALLY by DEGREE but not by SIGN
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Unread 06-10-2020, 09:32 PM
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Smile Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
*

Often referred to by Modernist astrologers as Quincunx
is in fact
traditionally known as Disjunct
Is a "Sextile" also a Traditionalistic "Disjunct"?
Since it has neither Element nor Modality in common.
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Unread 06-10-2020, 09:36 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

In fact, it seems the important factor is the number of degrees between the two, not whether they share sign or element.
A trine can also be out of sign.
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Unread 06-10-2020, 09:40 PM
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Smile Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
In fact, it seems the important factor is the number of degrees between the two, not whether they share sign or element.
A trine can also be out of sign.
What's your allowable orb for a Trine?
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Unread 06-10-2020, 09:43 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Not static.
In a horary, less, in a natal more.
in a synastry 3.
Don't ask my why, I don't have a ready reference for you.
Not sure if the orbs vary based on the weight of the planet(s) involved. What do you think?
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Unread 06-10-2020, 09:53 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


Is a "Sextile" also a Traditionalistic "Disjunct"?
Since it has neither Element nor Modality in common.

Traditionally, there are FIVE Ptolemaic aspects

i.e.

SEXTILE
TRINE
SQUARE
OPPOSITION
and
CONJUNCTION

Traditionally, DISJUNCT is also known as AVERSION aka DISREGARD

as illustrated:


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Unread 06-10-2020, 09:59 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post

What's your allowable orb for a Trine?
The following links to

a Table illustrating MAXIMUM DISTANCE
at which planets are in orb of each other

https://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspectorbs.html

The emboldened figures use MOST COMMONLY ACCEPTED orb allowance.
The figures in normal type indicate a wider allowance accepted by SOME
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Unread 06-10-2020, 10:04 PM
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Smile Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Not static.
In a horary, less, in a natal more.
in a synastry 3.
Don't ask my why, I don't have a ready reference for you.
Not sure if the orbs vary based on the weight of the planet(s) involved. What do you think?
Most give the Moon and Sun the widest possible orb. I use a standard 5 degree Orb, for all of the "Indicators" of major importance. That's 1-sixth of a 30 degree Sign, which somehow appeals to me.

I consider the term "Orb" in this context to mean "sphere of influence" along the path of the zodiac. Greatest influence is at the exact longitudinal position of the Indicator, then weakening (but still important) towards the outskirts.
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Unread 06-10-2020, 10:12 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


Most give the Moon and Sun the widest possible orb.
I use a standard 5 degree Orb, for all of the "Indicators" of major importance. That's 1-sixth of a 30 degree Sign, which somehow appeals to me.
I consider the term "Orb" in this context to mean "sphere of influence" along the path of the zodiac. Greatest influence is at the exact longitudinal position of the Indicator, then weakening (but still important) towards the outskirts.

- Aspects show an influence in the period leading up to exactness
and
a diminishing effect as they separate from perfection.
The time-span in which their effect may be expected to manifest
and linger
is defined by the period that they are said to be 'in orb'.
Traditionally, orbs of influence were applied to planets
not the aspects themselves
with the Sun and Moon recognised as having
a greater 'virtue' and orb of influence than the planets.

For example, one popular list defines the Sun's orb as 15°
the Moon's orb as 12°
and the orb of Mercury, Venus and Mars as 7°.

To know if two planets are 'in orb of application'
their orbs are added together and halved
- if the planets are separated by less than that distance
they are said to be 'in application'.

Eg
Sun and Moon:
Orbs are 15° + 12°
so 27° divided by 2 = 13°30'.
Thus the Sun and Moon are 'in orb' of any aspect


when they are less than 13°30' from the point of exactness.
Sun and Mars:
Orbs are 15° + 7°
so 22° divided by 2 = 11°.
Thus the Sun and Mars are 'in orb' of any aspect
when they are less than 11° from the point of exactness.
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Unread 06-10-2020, 10:20 PM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

A planet at 28 degrees Leo
for example
trines a planet at 2 degrees Sagittarius according to the relationship of the SIGNS
but is close to an exact square
when the planetary positions are measured from degree to degree.


In classical astrology the latter is known as a partile aspect because it considers the 'parts' aka DEGREE
rather than the SIGNS.

Aspects judged according to the relationship of the SIGNS
are called PLATICK
from a term which meant 'plate' or 'broad area'.


In later astrology
the term PARTILE generally referred
to aspects which were exact or near perfection
whereas PLATICK referred to those which were 'loose'
or within the limits of their recognised orbs.


http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html#ado
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  #24  
Unread 06-11-2020, 12:29 AM
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Smile Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

To answer the question, I'd say that the Orbs can be in opposition, even though the Longitudinal positions are not in opposite Signs. These would be labeled as "out-of-Sign Oppositions".

However, out-of-Sign Oppositions, while worth noting, are less influential in the chart than in-Sign Oppositions. Same goes for the other Aspects.
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Unread 06-11-2020, 12:50 AM
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Re: How do you interpret oppositions that aren't in opposite signs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
Because aspects are geometry, not sign based. Oppositions are +/-180°. Quincunxes (inconjuncts) are +/-150°.

But this Sun/Chiron should not count as an opposition since it is over 7.5° wide involving an asteroid.
This might be a modern concept, but certainly is not how oppositions originated and were logically understood in traditional Astrology.

The logic behind opposition is the opposing temperaments and elements of two signs. Airy and moist Libra (ruled by Venus) is the opposite of hot and dry Aries (ruled by Mars). So it is the temperaments that stand in opposition to each other, which is why the signs are said to be in opposition to each other.
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