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  #1  
Unread 02-01-2018, 05:26 PM
PlutorisingLee PlutorisingLee is offline
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Lilith the horror.

What does dark lady Lilith want? Is it the source of all problems?

I hope to start figuring out what Lilith means in my chart. I have a suspicion I was wrong not to give it any attention. I know it is not bad/good but for the life of me can't imagine what good am I meant to be learning here?

So I went to take a look and sure enough! One is square my Moon and the other conjunct Saturn.

Is the impact minor? *hopeful*

Thank you
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  #2  
Unread 02-01-2018, 06:18 PM
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D-Rok D-Rok is offline
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Re: Lilith the horror.

[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]

If you want to know the source of your troubles, look to FIRST Mars and Saturn and their rulerships/placement/strength.

Then look at the rest of the planets. Pretty much every one of them can ***** you over one way or another, but it all depends on how they’re placed. Mars and Saturn are the harder planets to deal with, with generally unpleasant stuff. On occasion the South Node can bring trouble, too.

Please look to OP’s chart. Lilith doesn’t even have a glyph. It’s just labeled as an abbreviation of its name.

Last edited by wilsontc; 02-02-2018 at 01:47 PM.
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  #3  
Unread 02-01-2018, 10:23 PM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Rok View Post
Please look to OP’s chart. Lilith doesn’t even have a glyph. It’s just labeled as an abbreviation of its name.
That's not true. The MEAN Black Moon called Lilith DOES have its own glyph, as can be seen from its posiition on 12+Aquarius, with a constant motion of 0.6' per day. It has strong associations with those images formed of situations during the period of innocent childhood, which may or may not be real.

This is the position of osculating Black Moon called Lilith (Lil (o), aka TRUE Black Moon Lilith, with a variable direct and retrograde motion. It can pass each degree 12 times within a year during its transit of a sign! It has strong associations with the seeing the reality or not of those images formed in childhood.
Indeed Astro. com provides no glyph, although Astrotheme charts differentiates between MEAN and TRUE BML. MEAN is as the glyph shown on astro. com charts; TRUE has the same glyph with a . (dot) next to it.
Surprising how many people miss the importance and point of the . .

Both are non-physical points

[deleted quote of attacking comment - Moderator]

Have you ever made any study of its motion and what does/doesn't physically exist and/or occur, to make such a judgement?

E.g. I live abroad. My Gemini Sun sister lost her Taurus Sun husband on January 2nd this year. Sickness through age and a sweet release from further pain. He ceased to 'physically' exist.
TRUE BML retrograde was transiting 8+* Capricorn (with transiting Venus).
It was in my 4th house and trined my 9th house Mercury-Venus on 8-9* Taurus.

I joined the family for the 'thanksgiving' service which took place when transiting TRUE BML conjunct transiting Pluto in Capricorn was exact degree inconjunct my 12th house Jupiter (ruler I.C.). It was an understandable yet nevertheless sad farewell.

Co-incidence? Such as is the basis (of proof) of astrological tsymbolism?


Last edited by wilsontc; 02-02-2018 at 01:49 PM.
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  #4  
Unread 02-02-2018, 04:24 AM
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Re: Lilith the horror.

D-Rok, try
Francis Santoni, Demetra George, and Lee A.Suyterman, The Black Moon Book, SUM Press, 1994; or Demetra George, Mysteries of the Dark Moon (in print now as an e-book.) On the Astrodienst Astro-Wiki: https://www.astro.com/astrowiki/en/Lilith

From the Astro-Wiki:

"The first method defines Lilith as the second focal point of the Moon's elliptical orbit next to the first one, the Earth. ("true" Black Moon Lilith)

The second method defines Lilith as the Moon's apogee, i.e. that point on the Moon's elliptical orbit which is furthest away from the Earth." (mean Black Moon Lilith)

There are other Liliths in modern astrology that are not used so often, but mainly an asteroid #1181 by this name.

If you google Black Moon Lilith you'll find more information, but a cautionary alert is that some of this material is written by (gasp, shock) modern evolutionary astrologers. They'd probably drive you around the bend.

Frankly, I think the best way to understand BML is to read Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Women Who Run With The Wolves.

You'll see the glyph at Astrodienst, when you input BML into your own chart. It's a black crescent open to the right, with a cross on the bottom.
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  #5  
Unread 02-02-2018, 08:16 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Lilith the horror.

[deleted quote of attacking comment and response to attacking comment - Moderator]

Quote:
If you want to know the source of your troubles, look to FIRST Mars and Saturn and their rulerships/placement/strength
If I was to add that transit Saturn was exact square natal Neptune, would that be (non) acceptable as a correlation through the style you choose to study astrology?

Mars and Saturn are physical objects, referring to actual instances....even if one chooses not to heed the signals they represent.


The Black Moons are not made of physical 'stuff'., yet can impart much regarding one's inner experiences of situations and how these affect their outer lives.

Look at their positions in your own chart and give them a chance to prove themselves right or wrong.....through the perception of your own eyes.

Last edited by wilsontc; 02-02-2018 at 01:51 PM.
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  #6  
Unread 02-02-2018, 08:33 AM
PlutorisingLee PlutorisingLee is offline
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Hi everyone,
I hope you don't mind me replying in one post. I really do want to understand the impact of Lilith(s). I know about the mythology of this figure and it's roots but that combined with what I could find online hasn't been that helpful understanding how it works for ME. A lot is focused from a new age gender perspective or traditional negative perspective.

D-Rok Maybe your right but even if minor the Lilith is sitting on Saturn and aspecting other planets. if it wasn't making aspects I would not wonder about it much. So it might help me understand Saturn/Moon too.

Frisiangal I never heard about this association between Lilith and seeing images and childhood! How interesting.
Could you maybe elaborate what it would means? And touching the 5th house? I don't care if it's a real physical point or not. My soul is not a physical thing either.

StillOne Thank you and yes I want to figure this out.
There are problems with my Saturn though, as it makes harsh aspects in a square? I also learned Mars is hard for me to express being in the 7th house and no aspects to it. I know both mars and Saturn relate to problems in my relationships/expression of creativity and individuality so wondering what Lilith helps add to it?

waybread how do they drive you around the bend?
Quote:
If you google Black Moon Lilith you'll find more information, but a cautionary alert is that some of this material is written by (gasp, shock) modern evolutionary astrologers. They'd probably drive you around the bend.
I read Women Who Run with Wolves...

So...Any ideas anyone about the aspects to Lilith?
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  #7  
Unread 02-03-2018, 02:43 AM
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Re: Lilith the horror.

I'm not a big fan of evolutionary astrology. I appreciate what they're after, which is a better world and people reaching their best potential. I just don't find the astrology behind it to be so rigorous.

I think Lilith encourages women to let out their wild side-- not to be deferential and domesticated merely due to societal expectations.
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Unread 02-03-2018, 08:09 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Quote:
[deleted quote of attacking comment and response to attacking comment - Moderator]
I am surprised that the comments were deleted (and a complete post now deleted), as I don't believe the poster meant them in an 'attacking' manner. They were personal thoughts expressed through an ignorance, i.e. not studying and therefore of not being consciously aware, of what the astrological points entail through a 'modern astrology' perspective. After all, there are many similar 'non-physical' astrological points represented in a chart that are accepted without question by all astrologers.

IMvHO the also deleted replies could have been deemed as 'helpful' in opening both the posters' and responders' astrological eyes to other views.
Questions asked remain unanswered.

I understand that 'zero tolerance' is the moderating motto. Yet I do wonder and am becoming increasingly concerned regarding where the boundary line of free speech between 'attack' and 'exchange' of views' lies.
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Unread 02-03-2018, 09:54 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Quote:
QUOTE=PlutorisingLee;860466]even if minor the Lilith is sitting on Saturn and aspecting other planets.

Frisiangal I never heard about this association between Lilith and seeing images and childhood! How interesting.
Could you maybe elaborate what it would means? And touching the 5th house? I don't care if it's a real physical point or not. My soul is not a physical thing either.




Astrologically Black Moon Lilith (BML) can be viewed and interpretted as the dark side of the Moon that never receives the light of the Sun; or, the furthest point in the Moon's orbit of Earth (apogee).
Sun= self,
Moon = response through feeling,
Earth = place of manifestation.

Personally, I do not interpret BML as a 'she' rather than a manner of (not )readily expressed active inner feelings. Feelings are seen as 'feminine' of nature, yet men have them too.

Saturn and BML are complete opposites.
Simply stated, BML is to/acts in the inner world realm of feeling as Saturn is/does in the outer world. I.e. not everything in physical manifestation is as it appears to be (Saturn) but is experienced through the
images a person can create of it( BML).
When Saturn and BML adversely aspect each other, there is the challenge between their realms; when they positively aspect each other,the one helps the other.

Saturn and BML share the same sign and house. Aquarius has a reputation
for doing its own thing in its own way. Saturn is a stickler for following societal law; the how things 'ought to be', which can put a spoke in the wheel of Aquarius's independent mental (air)expression. OTOH, BML has been observed to work well through Aquarius because there are no barriers to hold back the expression of it inner feelings UNLESS the need to feel accepted outweighs its need to express itself. With BML applying to Saturn, outer circumstances could be the barrier with which to do inner battle to be who one is.
MEAN BML (in chart) is at the apex of the T-squares with Moon-Mercury and Moon-Venus, yet does not aspect the T-square with natal Chiron (inner wounding?).
Saturn is at the apex of the T-square with Sun-Pluto.
The release point (empty leg) of each is in Leo in the 11th house, in which Chiron is placed.

It would seem that the biological mother plays a major role in how, in childhood, one 'emotionally thinks', and consequently, inwardly feels about one's self. Is becoming an individual in one's own right as important or more so than being an extension of another? It can effect one's own attitude towards 5th house parenting, and all that the 5th house realm incorporates. In later life, natal TRUE BML square natal Sun can enable one to see the effect that such thoughts may have had upon how one's own life further developed.
There is no shame attached to bringing any hidden feelings to the surface. They can help towards a positive development of life. The 'it's o.k. to feel and be different' is such a positive expression of BML in Aquarius.

Just a few cents worth of general thought.

Last edited by Frisiangal; 02-03-2018 at 09:57 AM.
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  #10  
Unread 02-03-2018, 11:33 AM
katydid katydid is online now
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Re: Lilith the horror.

I really want to understand the true meaning of Lilith in a chart.

But My Lilith is exactly conjunct my Pluto in Leo in the 4th. And they conjunct the South Node in Leo.

So I have South Node conjunct Pluto/Lilith in Leo in 4th, and they are part of a Grand Cross...


So I never seem to be able to really unpack Lilith from the Pluto/South Node, 4th House influence.

Thus I cannot get a clear vision of Lilith as all of my unconscious/Subconscious/emotional baggage which is connected to her.
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  #11  
Unread 02-03-2018, 10:47 PM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
I really want to understand the true meaning of Lilith in a chart.

But My Lilith is exactly conjunct my Pluto in Leo in the 4th. And they conjunct the South Node in Leo.
Do you mean the meaning of TRUE B.M Lilith (h13 in astro. com charts) or the true meaning of MEAN B.M. Lilith. Both were transiting Leo to be conjunct natal Pluto and South Node around the year you were born.
Neptune was also sextile Pluto, which could have an influence upon the realm of ' inner imagery/fantasy'

Quote:
So I have South Node conjunct Pluto/Lilith in Leo in 4th, and they are part of a Grand Cross...
So I never seem to be able to really unpack Lilith from the Pluto/South Node, 4th House influence.
As far as I can check, there were several planets forming grand crosses in the Fixed signs during a similar period, so the planets involved on your particular grand cross would add their influence in how the BML meaning(s)inwardly operate and can surface to become part of one's conscious awareness. BML can feel to be 'the missing piece' that makes one complete. When in harsh aspect it seems to say a lot regarding 'the inner child', and a 4th house position would enhance this.

What has been observed with natal BML in Cancer or the 4th house is 'a link' to that which is thought of as extinct, non-existent, or no longer physically functioning. It can have an association with 4th house inherent factors and traits. Part of the fixed cross is Taurus. Jupiter was in it and formed part of a fixed grand cross. Jupiter is one's belief patterns, and Taurus is the sign which would seek physical tangibility of whatever was felt to be so. BML cannot provide that, as it is a purely inner experience that the person simply believes/understands/acknowledges to always have been there, and to be true without knowing why (Pluto). There may be a necessity to overcome unwarranted fears in delving into the unknown
to seek answers.
The Pluto in Leo generation were the first to undergo the individuality of being one's self. The Sun sign's influence will be important in achieving it.
BML may mean experiencing those obstacles that appear to stand in one's way.....and/or experiencing the difference between excuses and reasons to overcome them. The right to the identity to be myself rather than the child, friend, spouse of whoever is very strong with BML in Leo.

BML in 4th has also found associations with terminations of one kind or another, and the cravings, yearnings, and 'if only' that remain. In some cases it has been observed to represent the figment of imagination of 'the (lost) child that never was', yet who lives within to go through the inner created passage of growth that doesn't exist in reality.

'Rebirthing' can be another experience of the 4th house BML. The deep inner desire to know how, what, where it all began, and/or to explain the deep inner feelings one carries within. With Pluto, hynotism can work, although Taurus might not fully cooperate; much too grounded.

Quote:
Thus I cannot get a clear vision of Lilith as all of my unconscious/Subconscious/emotional baggage which is connected to her.
Saturn is 'the baggage', isn't it? At its best, BML will aid in DISconnecting from it to get rid of it.

Just a few of many possibilites to consider, of which TRUE BML will show through wisdom of experience just how much of 'a wise (wo)man' the individual has become.

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  #12  
Unread 02-04-2018, 01:47 PM
PlutorisingLee PlutorisingLee is offline
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
[B][COLOR=darkorchid]Personally, I do not interpret BML as a 'she' rather than a manner of (not )readily expressed active inner feelings. Feelings are seen as 'feminine' of nature, yet men have them too.
Let's call it the "the electric it" . I feel it that way, Aquarius is electric Saturn is the scientist building the machine. Makes me think of the film Metroplis (1927) for some reason. Social order and breaking free...
Quote:
Saturn and BML are complete opposites.
Simply stated, BML is to/acts in the inner world realm of feeling as Saturn is/does in the outer world. I.e. not everything in physical manifestation is as it appears to be (Saturn) but is experienced through the
images a person can create of it( BML).
When Saturn and BML adversely aspect each other, there is the challenge between their realms; when they positively aspect each other,the one helps the other.
Would the conjunction here be a melding of the two or a challenge between them? But i see what you mean that is an inner behind the scenes experience impacting maybe something real like Saturn.
Quote:
Saturn and BML share the same sign and house. Aquarius has a reputation for doing its own thing in its own way. Saturn is a stickler for following societal law; the how things 'ought to be', which can put a spoke in the wheel of Aquarius's independent mental (air)expression. OTOH, BML has been observed to work well through Aquarius because there are no barriers to hold back the expression of it inner feelings UNLESS the need to feel accepted outweighs its need to express itself. With BML applying to Saturn, outer circumstances could be the barrier with which to do inner battle to be who one is.
Wow! This basically sounds like my Saturn in the 5th conflict! Fear of expression and having to put individuality in check for the sake of rules and other people. I mean- me wanting to keep things like that because I want to do the right thing. I'm still unsure what that Saturn wants me to learn . It is always a question of bering the responsibility or doing what the ego wants.

Quote:
MEAN BML (in chart) is at the apex of the T-squares with Moon-Mercury and Moon-Venus, yet does not aspect the T-square with natal Chiron (inner wounding?).
Saturn is at the apex of the T-square with Sun-Pluto.
The release point (empty leg) of each is in Leo in the 11th house, in which Chiron is placed.
So is maybe Chiron the release point? Key? It is in the 11th house of Aquarius...

Quote:
It would seem that the biological mother plays a major role in how, in childhood, one 'emotionally thinks', and consequently, inwardly feels about one's self. Is becoming an individual in one's own right as important or more so than being an extension of another? It can effect one's own attitude towards 5th house parenting, and all that the 5th house realm incorporates. In later life, natal TRUE BML square natal Sun can enable one to see the effect that such thoughts may have had upon how one's own life further developed.
There is no shame attached to bringing any hidden feelings to the surface. They can help towards a positive development of life. The 'it's o.k. to feel and be different' is such a positive expression of BML in Aquarius.
Just a few cents worth of general thought.
I think this is something have been dealing with over the past years and learning to heal. Would you say Lilith is Plutonic? Like my Moon early childhood.
I am good at having no shame about those things and having other people share their own taboo with me. Nurturing each other.
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Unread 02-04-2018, 09:34 PM
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
I really want to understand the true meaning of Lilith in a chart.

But My Lilith is exactly conjunct my Pluto in Leo in the 4th. And they conjunct the South Node in Leo.

So I have South Node conjunct Pluto/Lilith in Leo in 4th, and they are part of a Grand Cross...


So I never seem to be able to really unpack Lilith from the Pluto/South Node, 4th House influence.

Thus I cannot get a clear vision of Lilith as all of my unconscious/Subconscious/emotional baggage which is connected to her.
Friesiangal knows a whole lot more about BML than I do, but my understanding is:

Lilith was probably originally an Assyrian goddess. In the Jewish tradition, mythological Lilith was Adam's first wife prior to Eve. Lilith refused to obey Adam (which one source explained as her desire to be on top during sex,) and she was banished by God into the desert. There she became an evil spirit, to whom all kinds of horrors were attributed. Among European Jews, Lilith was seen as a kind of witch who spoiled the milk and snatched babies from their cradles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/lilith

During the 1970s, 2nd-wave Jewish feminists adopted Lilith as a positive symbol of women who were fed up with patriarchy and determined to lead their own best lives. If deciding not to be deferential and domesticated had Lilith-like qualities, then she was seen as a positive role model who had nevertheless gotten a really bad rap from men who were frightened by the notion of strong independent women.

I think women have to feel their inner Lilith to appreciate what she brings to our lives and horoscopes. This is why I think Clarissa Pinkola Estes book, Women Who Run With The Wolves is a great introduction. It's not an astrology book, but one that encourages women to find their inner independent wild side.

I'm less clear how Lilith functions in a man's chart, but I can think of one man with an afflicted Lilith who had issues with uppity women. Hopefully a well-aspected Lilith in a man's chart brings an appreciation of independent women.

Oh, and remember this classic by Helen Reddy? She pretty well sums it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6fHTyVmYp4

I think Pluto allows you to dig deep, really, really deep to find Lilith and your ability to howl at the moon, if that's what you feel like doing. With the SN there, however, maybe you already know her. Then your growth would have 10th house Aquarian purposes: maybe it's outside your comfort zone.
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Unread 02-05-2018, 10:03 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

. Would you say Lilith is Plutonic? Like my Moon early childhood.
This is often the association placed upon it, possibly as a result of the ancient myth ,as mentioned by Waybread here, placed upon it. Studies working from this viewpoint are taken from that assumption.

I knew nothing of the this myth so was not hampered by it when, following 'a mystical experience' (MEAN BML-Chiron in 12th house conjunct Asc.) began the study of what it could mean in a chart. The mind (Mercury trine MEAN BML-Chiron-Asc)) was opened (9th house) to perspectives of whatever entered it from nowhere.

From personal observation with charts over the years, MEAN BML can take on the (dis)guise of any planet to which it is aspected in order 'to get its point' across. Positively, it often represents a(n instinctive) laying-in-waiting and/or dormant natural talent with which the individual is born that desires to surface. Just as often, if the negative side is experienced, it can first show itself through oppressed/hidden feelings which deter the individual from taking any action by word, feeling, or deed. It takes on the form of the oppressor with whom one feels to be confronted, rather than the guide towards obtaining a better view of life.
Transits or progressions to its natal placing can bring on the urge to listen to its inner nature; or its transits TO a natal planet can act as the manner through which it makes its presence felt.

Moon in harsh aspect to MEAN BML can be emotionally strong and affect a deep longing to 'disconnect from feeling'. Moon in Scorpio (and its aspects) to BML would suggest a tragedy or trauma of worth (2nd house) that overwhelms to such a degree that it becomes easy for BML to turn away from showing any outer form of caring. Yet inside it broods because it cares so much about that which it does not perceive as physically occuring (Chiron in Taurus (Earth)). In Aquarius BML can enable a person to detach itself from any kind of emotional feeling.

Saturn is trad. ruler of Aquarius on 6th house cusp. When Moon is harshly aspected to it, it's often Saturn that is more relevant in the situations
pertaining to this house than Uranus which acts through Sun's Self awareness.

Delving into the past can bring that which is hidden to the surface. Aquarius also rules archeology.....including that of human nature.
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Unread 02-05-2018, 10:18 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Friesiangal knows a whole lot more about BML than I do,

You have more knowledge in your thumbnail of the history and meaning behind astro. symbolism than I do in my whole body.

Quote:
but my understanding is:
Lilith was probably originally an Assyrian goddess. In the Jewish tradition, mythological Lilith was Adam's first wife prior to Eve. Lilith refused to obey Adam (which one source explained as her desire to be on top during sex,) and she was banished by God into the desert. There she became an evil spirit, to whom all kinds of horrors were attributed. Among European Jews, Lilith was seen as a kind of witch who spoiled the milk and snatched babies from their cradles.


To quote a famous text: 'In the beginning..... the world was without form.

And if Lilith was a child of innocence that had not yet reached puberty??
Could explain a lot for not wanting to lay beneath', feeling submissive to?? Puts a whole different perspective to a man-made myth.
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Unread 02-05-2018, 07:43 PM
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Awww, thanks, Friesiangal. I defer to your knowledge of Lilith and medical astrology as I learn a lot from your posts.
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Unread 02-05-2018, 11:16 PM
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
Do you mean the meaning of TRUE B.M Lilith (h13 in astro. com charts) or the true meaning of MEAN B.M. Lilith. Both were transiting Leo to be conjunct natal Pluto and South Node around the year you were born.
Neptune was also sextile Pluto, which could have an influence upon the realm of ' inner imagery/fantasy'



As far as I can check, there were several planets forming grand crosses in the Fixed signs during a similar period, so the planets involved on your particular grand cross would add their influence in how the BML meaning(s)inwardly operate and can surface to become part of one's conscious awareness. BML can feel to be 'the missing piece' that makes one complete. When in harsh aspect it seems to say a lot regarding 'the inner child', and a 4th house position would enhance this.

What has been observed with natal BML in Cancer or the 4th house is 'a link' to that which is thought of as extinct, non-existent, or no longer physically functioning. It can have an association with 4th house inherent factors and traits. Part of the fixed cross is Taurus. Jupiter was in it and formed part of a fixed grand cross. Jupiter is one's belief patterns, and Taurus is the sign which would seek physical tangibility of whatever was felt to be so. BML cannot provide that, as it is a purely inner experience that the person simply believes/understands/acknowledges to always have been there, and to be true without knowing why (Pluto). There may be a necessity to overcome unwarranted fears in delving into the unknown
to seek answers.
The Pluto in Leo generation were the first to undergo the individuality of being one's self. The Sun sign's influence will be important in achieving it.
BML may mean experiencing those obstacles that appear to stand in one's way.....and/or experiencing the difference between excuses and reasons to overcome them. The right to the identity to be myself rather than the child, friend, spouse of whoever is very strong with BML in Leo.

BML in 4th has also found associations with terminations of one kind or another, and the cravings, yearnings, and 'if only' that remain. In some cases it has been observed to represent the figment of imagination of 'the (lost) child that never was', yet who lives within to go through the inner created passage of growth that doesn't exist in reality.

'Rebirthing' can be another experience of the 4th house BML. The deep inner desire to know how, what, where it all began, and/or to explain the deep inner feelings one carries within. With Pluto, hynotism can work, although Taurus might not fully cooperate; much too grounded.



Saturn is 'the baggage', isn't it? At its best, BML will aid in DISconnecting from it to get rid of it.

Just a few of many possibilites to consider, of which TRUE BML will show through wisdom of experience just how much of 'a wise (wo)man' the individual has become.



The right to the identity to be myself rather than the child, friend, spouse of whoever is very strong with BML in Leo.

That ^^ speaks to me.

When my Solar Arc Sun got involved in the my natal fixed squares, and was squaring the Pluto/BLM from the 7th house, I took a road trip with my musician boyfriend, and ended up moving to Los Angeles, 8 hours away from my family.

Until then I had been closely connected and involved with my very large extended Irish Catholic family. Huge assortment of siblings, cousins, aunts and uncles, Grandparents, etc etc. all living in the Bay Area and celebrated everyones birthdays and holidays etc.

I loved my big family. But I always felt like everyone knew everyone else’s business and I couldn’t really explain myself—couldn’t express where I saw my life going—it didn’t fit in with most of my cousins and siblings, who were going the more traditional, suburban route.

Choosing to become an Astrologer and teach classes at the Metaphysical Bookstore was hard to really explain without awkward silences. Living with a singer in a band, and touring with them, also not well received by my large protective family.

Lots of incidents during that period of ‘living with the band’ would fit well into the description of Black Moon Lilith meets Pluto and the South Node. in Leo, in house of home…*blush*

So I did set off to ‘find myself, which required me to free myself from family restraints and expectations.’



When in harsh aspect it seems to say a lot regarding 'the inner child', and a 4th house position would enhance this.

My inner child was gravely wounded as a very young girl. After my parents divorced suddenly, my mom moved back to her home, with us 3 kids. And my 19 yr old uncle was the after school babysitter. He sexually abused me for a few years and it was confusing and chaotic.

The lucky thing is that the harsh aspects were only coming from Jupiter and Mercury. So it was not as harsh or malefic as it could have become. WE only lived there until I was 8 and we luckily moved when my mom happily married a great man.

So the grand cross in my chart is not really a full cross because the 4th point is the North Node in Aquarius in the 10th.

Natal Degrees:
Pluto=23Leo02 BLM=23Leo15 [mean BLM]

Asc=21Tau21 Jupiter 17Tau56


Mercury=18Sco50 /Desc 21Sco21

North Node=18AQ28 [10th]


T-SQUARE TO PLUTO/BLM/SO NODE FROM THE JUPITER/ASC TO MERCURY/DESC OPPOSITION.


"Part of the fixed cross is Taurus. Jupiter was in it and formed part of a fixed grand cross. Jupiter is one's belief patterns, and Taurus is the sign which would seek physical tangibility of whatever was felt to be so. BML cannot provide that, as it is a purely inner experience that the person simply believes/understands/acknowledges to always have been there, and to be true without knowing why (Pluto). There may be a necessity to overcome unwarranted fears in delving into the unknown to seek answers. "



Yes,^^^ to that. Jupiter on my ascendant and opposing Mercury in Scorpio, demanded that I try and 'make real' my beliefs and my metaphysical knowledge. [Pluto/So Node/4th]

When I first began studying Astrology, as a 13 yr old, I was using it to try and save myself from emotional turmoil. I really was looking for a life line, an explanation for the cosmic intensity I sensed all around me. Now I know it was a lot of inner turmoil, stemming from the sexual abuse etc.

But I felt like I was 'remembering' Astrology, not like I was learning it for the first time. And as I grew up, and was living in Berkeley, I was living among some very amazing healers, practitioners in the 70's.

You mentioned Rebirthing, and I did some awesome Rebirthing sessions and some Past Life Regressions. And I had vivid past life memories of studying planetary tables by candlelight, in past incarnations. So I felt like I was coming home, and it felt like a comfort to me.

"BML in 4th has also found associations with terminations of one kind or another, and the cravings, yearnings, and 'if only' that remain. In some cases it has been observed to represent the figment of imagination of 'the (lost) child that never was', yet who lives within to go through the inner created passage of growth that doesn't exist in reality."



YES, ^^^^, I had always seen BLM as being 'where you sacrifice, where you must give something up.' And in the 4th, conjunct my Pluto and South Node, I had interpreted it as sacrificing my familial connections, and my tight family bonds, for the search for my own individual identity and personal journey.


I was in fact, called lovingly 'the lost child', on the rare occasions that I made it back home to a family wedding or celebration. I was the outlier.

THANK YOU FOR THE LOOK AT MY 4TH HOUSE. Pretty dark and isolated down there...

Last edited by katydid; 02-05-2018 at 11:20 PM.
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Re: Lilith the horror.

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Friesiangal knows a whole lot more about BML than I do, but my understanding is:

Lilith was probably originally an Assyrian goddess. In the Jewish tradition, mythological Lilith was Adam's first wife prior to Eve. Lilith refused to obey Adam (which one source explained as her desire to be on top during sex,) and she was banished by God into the desert. There she became an evil spirit, to whom all kinds of horrors were attributed. Among European Jews, Lilith was seen as a kind of witch who spoiled the milk and snatched babies from their cradles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/lilith

During the 1970s, 2nd-wave Jewish feminists adopted Lilith as a positive symbol of women who were fed up with patriarchy and determined to lead their own best lives. If deciding not to be deferential and domesticated had Lilith-like qualities, then she was seen as a positive role model who had nevertheless gotten a really bad rap from men who were frightened by the notion of strong independent women.

I think women have to feel their inner Lilith to appreciate what she brings to our lives and horoscopes. This is why I think Clarissa Pinkola Estes book, Women Who Run With The Wolves is a great introduction. It's not an astrology book, but one that encourages women to find their inner independent wild side.

I'm less clear how Lilith functions in a man's chart, but I can think of one man with an afflicted Lilith who had issues with uppity women. Hopefully a well-aspected Lilith in a man's chart brings an appreciation of independent women.

Oh, and remember this classic by Helen Reddy? She pretty well sums it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6fHTyVmYp4

I think Pluto allows you to dig deep, really, really deep to find Lilith and your ability to howl at the moon, if that's what you feel like doing. With the SN there, however, maybe you already know her. Then your growth would have 10th house Aquarian purposes: maybe it's outside your comfort zone.

"I think Pluto allows you to dig deep, really, really deep to find Lilith and your ability to howl at the moon, if that's what you feel like doing. With the SN there, however, maybe you already know her. Then your growth would have 10th house Aquarian purposes: maybe it's outside your comfort zone"


I think the bolded portion above nails it.

I spent many years acting out my Black Moon Lilith. Because of the early childhood sexual abuse, by a very 'loving' family member, sex was a very confusing thing.

And I was a Scorpio, with my Moon in the 8th conjunct Mars/Chiron in Capricorn. And I had been sexualized at ages 5 through8. Groomed by a manipulative Virgo Uncle who swore he was really my boyfriend. And he treated me like a princess, besides the fact he was molesting me every day after school.

Doesn't that sound a bit like a T-square to Pluto/BLM in the 4th?

when I became a young teen, I began acting out. I was promiscuous and loved to smoke pot, go to parties with older college kids etc. I was impulsive and stupid. Went on a short Grateful Dead journey, going from show to show, selling beaded necklaces...

I do believe my Jupiter in the 12th in Taurus, and My Venus in Sag in the 7th, saved my wretched life for me. So many lucky close calls and I never really had anything truly horrid happen.

But my 10th house Aquarius North Node was strongly calling to me and I studied metaphysics earnestly and turned the ship around.

I feel like the South Node being right behind the BLM/Pluto conjunction was signaling that it was the past, my ancient history, and I easily gave up that type of risky behavior by the time I was 18. And my North Node is 18 Aquarius.

When I went to UC Berkeley, at 18,I began doing charts for my friends at school, because no one else knew how to calculate them from the books or how to draw them up. No computers back then, lol

And having that kind of knowledge and skill set, allowed me to see myself more as a 10th house North Node in Aquarius, in opposition to that past shady Pluto/wild woman in Leo.
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Brilliant analysis, Katydid.

I am so sorry that this crud happened to you.

Is Uranus the planetary ruler of your 10th house? (Modern ruler of astrology.) The 10th house traditionally rules one's calling in life, whether or not it earns a paycheck.

Did you press charges against your uncle? Is that possible now? Lilith, I think, is more than bad things happening to girls, but their subsequent rage and power to stick up for themselves.
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Re: Lilith the horror.

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Brilliant analysis, Katydid.

I am so sorry that this crud happened to you.

Is Uranus the planetary ruler of your 10th house? (Modern ruler of astrology.) The 10th house traditionally rules one's calling in life, whether or not it earns a paycheck.

Did you press charges against your uncle? Is that possible now? Lilith, I think, is more than bad things happening to girls, but their subsequent rage and power to stick up for themselves.
Yes, Uranus rules my 10th. I have 2 Aquarius on the MC.

My uncle----weird story there.

I didn't tell anyone when I was very young because I was afraid my Dad would kill my uncle, sand then I'd never see my Dad again. That's how 8 yr olds think...

But once I was safe in our new home, I had an internal struggle about staying silent. I totally avoided my uncle and he went into the Army, thank goodness.

And I found out the shocking news that my uncle had been sexually abused by our priest when he was an altar boy. So I had a rush of compassion towards him, and it started to make sense...

But when I was about 23, [SA Sun squaring my Pluto/BLM] ---my uncle was killed when he was changing someone's tire on side of the road before sunrise--a good samaritan act that killed him......so I didn't tell any family members for quite awhile after that--they were grieving him

When I was in my 30's, I finally told my mom. She is a Pisces with a Scorpio Moon. We have a Sun/Moon conjunction and I am her only daughter. We are very close. So it was VERY emotional for her to hear. She cried, then sat very quietly, then I think she kind of stuffed it deep inside. She did ask a few questions about how she didn't know, and she felt terribly guilty. The main reason she moved back home with us was she had to get a job, and wanted us to 'BE SAFE with her family' ---and not be with strangers in day care.

So it was hard on her, and we didn't speak about it much afterwards. She is 88 now, and she actually brought it up herself a few months ago--asking me more about it--and crying a little- I mostly had to comfort her because I do know she feels terrible about it...

So LONG RAMBLING WAY of saying NO, I never reported him.

But the good thing is, my 2 kids were never molested and I was so careful throughout their whole lives, not to place them in vulnerable situations. I always stood up for them.

I think that is also part of my 4th house T-square, and my Cap Moon in the 8th.

My kids do say I was a bit much and was a bit controlling, but they also say I ALWAYS had their backs and was a Mama Bear, and they always felt loved.

So in a roundabout way, I found my voice when it came to protecting my own family. And I see that as also being Pluto in the 4th, of home and family.
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Re: Lilith the horror.

Well, life is never simple, is it? A child molester who was a victim and a good Samaritan. A victim who remains silent to protect her protector from harm.

Katydid, I have read many of your responses to people asking for chart readings. You have a lot of depth both in terms of the astrology and life experience you bring to your readings. Whatever it was that you went through has brought you to this place.
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Re: Lilith the horror.

I'm very sorry if I'm posting in your thread in a case where I should just make my own thread, but I have a few questions...
I know the significance of Black Moon Lilith is being discussed here, but what might the implications of it be in the 7th house? Also, does the Black Moon Lilith count when looking for grand crosses? Mine is in Aries and if it counts, then I have a grand cardinal cross and I'd really love to know if the grand cardinal cross is something I should read more about to gain some more insight about possible pitfalls and demons. Thank you!

I linked my chart too
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Re: Lilith the horror.

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my Moon in the 8th conjunct Mars/Chiron in Capricorn
katydid,
Apart from the learning process for me through feedback, I have been very moved by, and thank you so much for your complete honesty (ultimate truth surfacing?) concerning the past. Perhaps you recognise(d) the 'child' images of experiences in what I believe MEAN BML to mean and it's significance upon it once its innocence of nature recognises the difference between what/how societal behaviour denotes as right and wrong.

Both MEAN and TRUE BML are transiting Capricorn at this time.
MEAN is still on 9 Capricorn; TRUE has been retrograding from 19-9 Capricorn since your own response to this topic. It would be so very (verifying) co-incidental if this conjunction aspected your natal conjunction above. There is nothing left that has lingered (haunted) from the past. It no longer exists and can now be allowed to die a natural death and be laid to rest?
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Re: Lilith the horror.

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Originally Posted by Lykanized View Post
I'm very sorry if I'm posting in your thread in a case where I should just make my own thread, but I have a few questions...
I know the significance of Black Moon Lilith is being discussed here, but what might the implications of it be in the 7th house? Also, does the Black Moon Lilith count when looking for grand crosses? Mine is in Aries and if it counts, then I have a grand cardinal cross and I'd really love to know if the grand cardinal cross is something I should read more about to gain some more insight about possible pitfalls and demons. Thank you!

I linked my chart too
Hi,
Using max. orbs of 8 degrees I don't see a T-square in the cardinal signs in the chart you included, which means there can be no cardinal grand cross even if Black Moon Lilith's position (not shown) IS within orb. If it is on a degree in the 7th house, it will oppose Jupiter, ruler I.C., and whatever this means to you.....and/or you may not care to admit to.

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Re: Lilith the horror.

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Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
Hi,
Using max. orbs of 8 degrees I don't see a T-square in the cardinal signs in the chart you included, which means there can be no cardinal grand cross even if Black Moon Lilith's position (not shown) IS within orb. If it is on a degree in the 7th house, it will oppose Jupiter, ruler I.C., and whatever this means to you.....and/or you may not care to admit to.

Thank you for the info! And Good. I've read dark things about grand crosses. Although I just realized my black moon lilith trines my sun and it seems like that could spell a bit of trouble. Do you know what that might mean for me? It seems like my lilith doesn't really have much power in my chart otherwise, tho

I've read that the 7th house can be about what we're attracted to in romantic partners so I wonder if that also spells trouble for me in that department. Then again, my 7th house doesn't seem to have much power in my chart either
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