Victimhood: what and why?
- Thread starter waybread
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CancerEvolve
Banned
Not entirely.
It's just a perspective view point of a man with a mind of nothing but brokenness, it ate his mind, he took his own life.
AppLeo
Well-known member
He has North Node conjunct Moon in Pisces. I bet depression was haunting him ever since he walked this Earth.
CancerEvolve
Banned
AppLeo
Well-known member
waybread
Well-known member
Blackbery, it is hardly a one-time process. We can stop feeling victimized by our parents in our 30s, and some time later, begin to feel victimized by a spouse or a job. Late in life, people might feel victimized by poor health, estrangement from family, or especially by death of loved ones. I would say that my life got a whole lot better in my late 50s, as I was able to take an early retirement and move to a beautiful part of the world.
I'm hardly angry, Blackbery! Perplexed, yes. You seem angry at me.
Obviously we can never fully understand what life feels like to another person. But we can listen, and we can try. I follow a lot of news, and am particularly concerned about social justice and human rights issues.
What about you, Blackbery? How would you rate your own sensitivity?
Blackbery, I took the old "est" training in 1980 (now Landmark) and continued with their seminars and workshops as my location permitted through about 1994. http://www.landmarkworldwide.com/ I don't know if you're familiar with them, but this was/is one of the human potential movements. The old "est" training was actually pretty brutal, although Landmark today seems to have gone more for corporate clients.
While I no longer wish to participate in Landmark, and I believe that founder Werner Erhard retired in disgrace, in 1980 it was a huge wake-up, precisely because this training wasn't about touchy-feely emotional support, but about becoming more honest with ourselves, and letting go of the kinds of disempowering stories we tell ourselves. It has continued to shape a lot of my outlook.
After that I also put myself into therapy with a clinicalpsychologist to deal with debilitating PTSD, and twice into marriage counseling. I have some spiritual convictions, also, that I find helpful. Thankfully my life now is going pretty well, and I am blessed with a loving husband, family, and some dear friends, but I don't take anything for granted.
Blackbery, I am sorry for your bereavements. As I said in my OP, I don't deny or trivialize actual tragedies that people encounter, or debilitating mental health conditions. I lost both my parents by the time I was 35, and a brother in 2014 from cancer. My mother descended into depression and alcoholism at the end of her life. It's not like we don't need to grieve.
My concern is more with what seems to be people who are unwilling to let go of disempowering self-images, even when their narratives about themselves make them really unhappy. I think they want their lives to improve, or they wouldn't come here. Surely astrology opens a window for chronically unhappy people to feel better about themselves.
Well, we can hardly do otherwise, can we? We don't control their lives.
A great quote! Thanks, Blackbery.
applesandlilacs
Well-known member
Waybread,
I hope I didn't give you the impression of being hurt or defensive since I'm not in the slightest.
I felt that you are trying to understand a behavior (full stop).
I wanted to add my experience for data purposes.
For everyone:
From what I'm reading it seems that there should be a discussion about self-victimization as a coping mechanism. And, does this lead to manipulative behavior. Example: I have a cousin who had a really hard life, and she exploits her pain to control her environment. I think she feels powerless, so she manipulates people, so they're off-centered and don't trust their own judgement. People don't call her on it because of her past. Personally, I don't see them as being the same thing. You shouldn't get a pass on human kindness. Everybody's idea of kindness is different, but it should still be what we lead with when trying to understand others.
I also think their should be a discussion of how we are socialized to see these topics. We have a habit of trying to make things black or white, right or wrong, bad or good, and the real world is just not built that way.
This definitely a hot topic. I hope we can nourish curiosity in these threads with an open-mind and a little kindness.
Blessings,
Amber
I hope I didn't give you the impression of being hurt or defensive since I'm not in the slightest.
I felt that you are trying to understand a behavior (full stop).
I wanted to add my experience for data purposes.
For everyone:
From what I'm reading it seems that there should be a discussion about self-victimization as a coping mechanism. And, does this lead to manipulative behavior. Example: I have a cousin who had a really hard life, and she exploits her pain to control her environment. I think she feels powerless, so she manipulates people, so they're off-centered and don't trust their own judgement. People don't call her on it because of her past. Personally, I don't see them as being the same thing. You shouldn't get a pass on human kindness. Everybody's idea of kindness is different, but it should still be what we lead with when trying to understand others.
I also think their should be a discussion of how we are socialized to see these topics. We have a habit of trying to make things black or white, right or wrong, bad or good, and the real world is just not built that way.
This definitely a hot topic. I hope we can nourish curiosity in these threads with an open-mind and a little kindness.
Blessings,
Amber
waybread
Well-known member
UKpoohbear, thanks for your thoughtful post. Yes, victimhood did turn out to be too hot a topic! I'd say I felt misunderstood, but that would be sort of victim-like, so I won't.
I didn't come to this thread to work through personal issues, but to become more effective at reading horoscopes for people who obviously want a reading, and often advice, or they wouldn't come here. I thought the community would have some suggestions, which has definitely been the case.
At my age, frankly, the big issues are more about bodily aches and pains than inter-personal issues with the nice people in my real life. My husband is 78, and while he's in super health, we need to be realistic about the later years of life. Transiting Saturn will hit all of my chart angles in a few years. Saturn rules old age, so I'm starting to think about how best to use it constructively. So that's kind of my life issues, for now.
I don't worry about a lot of issues that afflict younger people, in terms of my own life, because they are in my rear-view mirror.
I really believe in the 3 statements at the bottom of my posts. If I had space for a 4th aphorism, it would be a Hindu saying,
"When I don't know who I am, I serve you. When I know who I am, I am you."
I didn't come to this thread to work through personal issues, but to become more effective at reading horoscopes for people who obviously want a reading, and often advice, or they wouldn't come here. I thought the community would have some suggestions, which has definitely been the case.
At my age, frankly, the big issues are more about bodily aches and pains than inter-personal issues with the nice people in my real life. My husband is 78, and while he's in super health, we need to be realistic about the later years of life. Transiting Saturn will hit all of my chart angles in a few years. Saturn rules old age, so I'm starting to think about how best to use it constructively. So that's kind of my life issues, for now.
I don't worry about a lot of issues that afflict younger people, in terms of my own life, because they are in my rear-view mirror.
I really believe in the 3 statements at the bottom of my posts. If I had space for a 4th aphorism, it would be a Hindu saying,
"When I don't know who I am, I serve you. When I know who I am, I am you."
waybread
Well-known member
Oh, no. I thought your post was great.
Yes, and thanks.
Good points. I think a lot of us have or had someone like that in our lives.
Let's do. Thanks, Amber.
Rawiri
Well-known member
I would say that a lot of people don't fall into either of the camps (that is, wanting a prediction or wanting to figure out how to change).
Many people just want some understanding of "why" their life is the way it is. Something they can point to and gives a kind of order to what they might otherwise see as a random, chaotic life. A lot of people just want some sense of order and happen to seek it in astrology.
I consider that somewhat different to "being a victim" although it does lend itself towards that.
Regardless, I think if giving astrology readings it is probably ideal to just "give people what they come for."
Different people have different wants and needs. Some do just want a prediction, plain and simple. They don't want to hear any philosophies on life.
Others just want a sounding board for once in their life, or to be understood and understand in some way what is going on and a "why" for it that they can point to.
I often fail at that because my own bias gets in the way. But it's really not my place to give someone chocolate ice cream when they ask for strawberry. And we shouldn't be surprised if they throw it in our face when we try.
Many people just want some understanding of "why" their life is the way it is. Something they can point to and gives a kind of order to what they might otherwise see as a random, chaotic life. A lot of people just want some sense of order and happen to seek it in astrology.
I consider that somewhat different to "being a victim" although it does lend itself towards that.
Regardless, I think if giving astrology readings it is probably ideal to just "give people what they come for."
Different people have different wants and needs. Some do just want a prediction, plain and simple. They don't want to hear any philosophies on life.
Others just want a sounding board for once in their life, or to be understood and understand in some way what is going on and a "why" for it that they can point to.
I often fail at that because my own bias gets in the way. But it's really not my place to give someone chocolate ice cream when they ask for strawberry. And we shouldn't be surprised if they throw it in our face when we try.
waybread
Well-known member
Good points, Rawiri.
Surely all of us hope for compassion (lit. "feeling with") and respect for our human dignity when we've had a rough spot. Or a rough lifetime.
My daughter just phoned me from the eastern European country where she works, having just gotten a big smack-down from her supervisor, when she was only trying to be honest and helpful. Naturally in a situation like that, Mom does her best to listen and be supportive-- but also to offer a couple of modest suggestions based on my own work experience. They are hers to adopt or reject, obviously.
Maybe "victim" was a poor word choice for this thread, but honestly, the alternatives aren't much better.
I feel the astrologer's job is to be truthful with the horoscope as we see it. We're not just here as some kind of pity-party. Examples:
Sometimes we see people who ask for a prediction simply to learn when their life is going to feel better. If we give the chart our best shot and it looks like life isn't going to feel a lot better for several years, what would you say to them?
I would try to be truthful, but to suggest ways they might at least partly their situation. (Which astrologers have been doing for roughly 2000 years.)
Have you seen this type of question? "Hi, I'm 40 and still single. Of course, men only want one thing, and they're interested only in beautiful young women."
Would you buy into it? Or gently try to steer the discussion differently?
A common type of comment is by someone who knows some astrology and uses it primarily to justify why her life reeks. For example, "With Saturn conjunct sun square moon, I'm doomed to be unhappy."
Would you say, "Yeh, right. Too bad about that." Or would you point to a nice trine from Jupiter, or suggest how he might work with Saturn, rather than against it?"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it better to suggest, however, modestly, a way forward for such people, that is consistent with their horoscope?
At the end of a long Youtube video, Robert Hand (a traditional western astrologer) said that he thought the highest purpose of astrology was to help people live the best lives of which they were capable. Hand talks about "the astrology of self-realization." Of course, none of us operates at his level, but surely modest improvements in people's lives are something to work towards.
Maybe this comes from first getting that people are absolutely fine the way they are, yet wanting something more in their lives or they wouldn't come here.
Surely all of us hope for compassion (lit. "feeling with") and respect for our human dignity when we've had a rough spot. Or a rough lifetime.
My daughter just phoned me from the eastern European country where she works, having just gotten a big smack-down from her supervisor, when she was only trying to be honest and helpful. Naturally in a situation like that, Mom does her best to listen and be supportive-- but also to offer a couple of modest suggestions based on my own work experience. They are hers to adopt or reject, obviously.
Maybe "victim" was a poor word choice for this thread, but honestly, the alternatives aren't much better.
I feel the astrologer's job is to be truthful with the horoscope as we see it. We're not just here as some kind of pity-party. Examples:
Sometimes we see people who ask for a prediction simply to learn when their life is going to feel better. If we give the chart our best shot and it looks like life isn't going to feel a lot better for several years, what would you say to them?
I would try to be truthful, but to suggest ways they might at least partly their situation. (Which astrologers have been doing for roughly 2000 years.)
Have you seen this type of question? "Hi, I'm 40 and still single. Of course, men only want one thing, and they're interested only in beautiful young women."
Would you buy into it? Or gently try to steer the discussion differently?
A common type of comment is by someone who knows some astrology and uses it primarily to justify why her life reeks. For example, "With Saturn conjunct sun square moon, I'm doomed to be unhappy."
Would you say, "Yeh, right. Too bad about that." Or would you point to a nice trine from Jupiter, or suggest how he might work with Saturn, rather than against it?"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it better to suggest, however, modestly, a way forward for such people, that is consistent with their horoscope?
At the end of a long Youtube video, Robert Hand (a traditional western astrologer) said that he thought the highest purpose of astrology was to help people live the best lives of which they were capable. Hand talks about "the astrology of self-realization." Of course, none of us operates at his level, but surely modest improvements in people's lives are something to work towards.
Maybe this comes from first getting that people are absolutely fine the way they are, yet wanting something more in their lives or they wouldn't come here.
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
I have reflected on your message and I would do anything to listen to my grandparent who died. I was not in a place where I could listen as much as it deserved because I did not understand.
I will not know what if is like to look back in a rear mirror and know that time is wasted on not moving on. I haven’t experienced it and I’m still the type who rushes out and makes silly mistakes without listening.
I waste time everyday. I will never know what it is like to experience the ageing process with aches until it happens. And I will never be able to talk to the grandparent I missed and ask the questions I would have been able to ask now I am a little bit older. No wonder she was respected. Tribes have the elders because they understood the power of experience.
So it is good to soak up your knowledge but I still would have to experience it myself.
love that Living this process which leads to serving God. I need to learn who I am first. Life is about learning to let go and serve God. We have to do the first part.l and the more I heal the more I understand God.
Also I think that things like war, rape, natural disaster, famine etc should be remembered because we could be gone at any moment before we are able to know who we are but how can we suddenly stop and say now I know who I am?
I waste time everyday and I shouldn’t and I will try to learn from that. But I still don’t know who I am and so the process of not knowing will continue.
We have different beliefs because I believe in reincarnation and our charts are what we have to learn. I have also come to believe our story has already been told, I am not sure how that fits either a Christian belief? I think the main religions believe in one life and then a Heaven so it makes sense you would now want to serve instead of believing in the Hindu belief of a never ending process of learning.
Service needs only service and the judgement is not required in that quote.
There is something very spiritual about time and then ageing is too because you see time differently and more spiritually.
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david starling
Well-known member
"If you don't serve yourself, who are you? If you don't serve others, what are you?" As a Piscean with a limited amount of kinetic energy (only Fire is Saturn and Pluto Inconj. in Leo in H6), I have to be careful not to overextend. I can make good use of some Transits, but some can "shut me down"as well. I've learned over the years, that if I don't take care of myself, I won't be able to help others. Lao Tzu has one for that--"Never outrun your supply-train."
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
I could have gone and edited that post because it reads a bit scrambly. I meant time IS spiritual, not isn’t.
The more I learn about myself the closer it is bringing me to God. I think all beliefs share the belief in healing before serving, like the quote said.
The more I learn about myself the closer it is bringing me to God. I think all beliefs share the belief in healing before serving, like the quote said.
Rawiri
Well-known member
Your noticeably Socratic post leading to the correct answer is well noted. I presume this is a remnant of working in academia, rather than anything deliberate. Nonetheless it would seem my answers to the individual questions aren't required so I will omit them.
In return I will pose some questions of my own. These have no ultimate conclusion and don't even require an answer (I have no exact answer for you myself). They are merely for pondering.
A father earned $50,000 a year. His son wants to earn $100,000 a year. The son does not want to earn more than his father and overshadow him. What does the son want?
A woman wants to lose weight. She also wants to eat 10 doughnuts every day. Which one does she want?
What is the difference between people who come to astrology for a way to improve their life, compared to those who go to say, a Tony Robbins seminar?
waybread
Well-known member
What is the sound of one hand clapping?
What is the most important part of a bowl?
Would you give up everything you are now, to be everything you could become?
Who invents these artificial dilemmas, anyway?
p. s. Obviously, I'd love to eat 10 doughnuts today and lose weight. So I'll look for some good low-cal doughnut recipes and ramp up my exercise regimen. These doughnuts have only 60 calories each, https://livingsweetmoments.com/skinny-homemade-baked-donuts-recipe/ so if I eat 10, that's only 600 calories. I still have calories to spare for a weight-loss restricted calorie diet. No problem.
Obviously, the young man should talk to his dad about his feelings, or perhaps realize that his father would be really proud if the son earned a good income.
There's no reason why someone couldn't do both a seminar and astrology. It might be the same kind of person or a different kind of person.
Hint: more lateral or panoramic thinking. Not binary either/or thinking.
That was easy.
Next question?
What is the most important part of a bowl?
Would you give up everything you are now, to be everything you could become?
Who invents these artificial dilemmas, anyway?
p. s. Obviously, I'd love to eat 10 doughnuts today and lose weight. So I'll look for some good low-cal doughnut recipes and ramp up my exercise regimen. These doughnuts have only 60 calories each, https://livingsweetmoments.com/skinny-homemade-baked-donuts-recipe/ so if I eat 10, that's only 600 calories. I still have calories to spare for a weight-loss restricted calorie diet. No problem.
Obviously, the young man should talk to his dad about his feelings, or perhaps realize that his father would be really proud if the son earned a good income.
There's no reason why someone couldn't do both a seminar and astrology. It might be the same kind of person or a different kind of person.
Hint: more lateral or panoramic thinking. Not binary either/or thinking.
That was easy.
Next question?
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Rawiri
Well-known member
[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]
I could easily say that "obviously" the egg came before the chicken due to what we understand of evolution. But that misses the point of those kind of questions.
As to the last one, though it was supposed to be a "thought" exercise and not one dealing with actual data...since you seem to want to go there, if you look at the actual data, by and large the people who approach various self help seminars etc are not only different but often entirely opposite to those who approach astrology as a solution.
There is a 50/50 split of the genders (whereas with astrology, worldwide there is a 33/66 in favour of females...and in the US a 20/80 split).
Those into astrology are FAR less likely than the average to be married, tending to be single or engaged/in a relationship. The opposite is the case for those interested in the self-help seminars.
Those into astrology tend to be poorer than the average lot their age - the direct opposite for the self-help people...often they have very high net worth compared to the averages.
In the US, they are less likely to have post-grad (interestingly, worldwide those interested are MORE likely to have post-grad..."western" populations skew the data in many ways)
Worldwide there's a disproportionate amount of those interested in astrology who come from Spanish linked countries such as South American countries and the Philippines. (Meaning these cultures and their identities, as well as of course those of India etc are important backdrops for their understanding and approach to life)
That's just basic demographics. But when you go into other things it gets more interesting.
Those into astrology for whatever reason, are often fond of horror. They are fond of sexual jokes. They are more "fly by the seat of their pants." More likely to be interested in fashion...and general entertainment media. The males into astrology disproportionately are more fond of rebelling against political correctness. They self-identify as "crazy bitches."
Those into the seminars...entirely different. They are very much interested in "entrepreneurship" and business. They spend a lot on business expenses. They are often far more interested in health than the norm. They have far less interest in general entertainment. They read the Wall Street Journal and visit Forbes website.
Both groups of people approach something that has at its basis the idea and ability to help them in their life. But they ARE very different groups.
If you can figure out the why of their differences, and why one group gets into astrology and not the other...then you are approaching the answer to your questions about "victimhood" and what they actually GENUINELY want. Which is often not what you seem to think.
"Obviously" this is something you have to figure out on your own.
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