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  #26  
Unread 10-31-2017, 01:27 AM
sadge sadge is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Hi folks-- so, I'm not going to express myself well or be able to give this topic the sensitivity it deserves, but.... how do you explain victimhood (def: a person who has been harmed or injured by another or external event, *type A and type B) in a chart?

Mostly people come to an astrology forum because they're unhappy or mightily bothered by something. We don't see OPs stating, "I'm really popular, happily married, and rich: how do you explain that?"

Usually we see people who are truly lonely, upset at how their lives have gone, financially broke, and so on. Sometimes their conditions are only temporary, sometimes they seem to be life-long. In reading horoscopes, our commitment is to be helpful to them: but sometimes this seems impossible.

*Type A: People who have a strong, objective case for being a victim: an abused child, a war or famine refugee, a persecuted religious minority.

*Type B. People who feel victimized by events that happen to a majority of people in one way or another: a bad break-up with a lover, few friends, a feud with a family member, unemployment, low self-esteem.

These categories are not entirely discrete: sometimes people whom I would classify as objectively victimized have a positive can-do attitude towards life, sometimes turning their personal tragedy into a positive commitment to help others in a similar situation. Sometimes a lonely person seems deeply committed to sustaining an unhappy isolation vs. trying to improve her situation.

Sometimes "victims" simply want us to tell them when the stars will hand them a desirable mate, clear out their debts, or hand them a job. Sometimes with no thoughts that we can be the authors of our own misfortunes, in which case, there's more inner work to be done. They don't want an astrological truth that might suggest there's no job or mate in sight.

I stress that people with a mental health condition, like clinical depression, are kind of a special case. They cannot "think" themselves happy, but oftentimes they can mitigate their condition with medication, therapy, or self-help activities like yoga. Also, an addict by definition cannot "think" himself out of an addiction.

What is your take on the problem? Do some people choose to understand themselves as victims rather than taking positive steps toward to improve their lives in ways consistent with their horoscopes? If so, are they actually an opening for astrological advice on how to improve their situation? If so, how would you express your advice such that the person is open to your horoscope reading?

What would be the horoscope placements for self-defined victims, if any?

Neptune? Chiron? Saturn?

Your thoughts?


You're complicating something to the point that you're missing the most obvious issue here:

Drop your judgmental lens. That's it.

Understand a chart from the perspective of the native. There's a life story in there, and you don't have the right to judge them, period. You're suggesting that you know whether someone is a real victim or not, according to your own criteria, what you see on the surface. People go much deeper than that, but only if you take the time to find it.

Billions of victims suffer in silent ways all over the world. Focus on what matters, not how you think they might s*ck.

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  #27  
Unread 10-31-2017, 02:29 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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Originally Posted by Flapjacks View Post
There is a distinction between someone whom feels a victim but uses that to empower themselves or others, and someone whom is paralyzed by it. Why the paralysis happens, I think, is largely due to a lack of faith in oneself to enact change (and, if we are being honest, that might not be an erroneous conclusion).

....
We are all going to experience happiness or sorrow or whatever of the many states of consciousness we can possibly be in at any given moment. Surrendering to the experience of where you are is necessary in order to move into another state. Astrology is a path to validation and explanations for the state you a
re in, and so it can be a part of that process......

.....I find that many people are looking for validation concerning their experience. Consistent, but honest, validation can help a person come to terms with their feelings of being wronged. You cannot really help anyone if you hold onto expectations about how they should act and feel.... Healing and coming to terms with yourself and your situation can be a slow process.
Just beautiful. Thanks.

Sadge, I have to say that, as a criticism, (vs. as a simple sharing of one's own experience) "Don't be so judgmental" is pretty ironic, given that your comment itself is highly judgmental. Declaring judging others to be wrong, or at least unproductive, is a judgmental comment when applied to another person. Surely you see this.

I totally agree with you that we need to try to read a chart from the person's own perpsective. Sometimes this goes better than at other times, and for a variety of reasons.

But Sadge, given your judgmental approach to my OP (or to the person you think I am) I have to say that I've read hundreds of charts for people, normally to good effect. I don't think people s*ck: your words, not mine. Generally I average 3 or 4 PM requests for chart readings per month, and many more thanks from people on the threads (here and at Astrodienst) who think I did right by them. Obviously there are good times and bad times to even read a horoscope.

But this result obviously isn't good enough when somebody's hurting, and hoping that an astrological reading will help them in some way-- yet nothing in their lives opens up or gives a glimpse of possibilities as a result, despite your or my interactions with them.

I think I was lucky to have read at a very early stage in my astrological studies the primer by Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky. Basically he sees people as having a fair bit of control as to how they interpret their charts and lives. Essentially he says that we can choose empowering or disempowering interpretations of our horoscope placements. Planets can be "teachers" or "tricksters." He's not notably judgmental about it, but treats the disempowering interpretations with a lot of compassion.

Are you familiar with Forrest's book?
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  #28  
Unread 10-31-2017, 02:55 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

InfoOverload2, well, I sure can't relate to "Eye of the Tiger!" I'm not out there to street-fight with anybody. So I guess I'd opt for viewing astrology's highest use is a tool for self-awareness; and ideally, self-improvement.

This song more resonates for me during tough times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_sk3EQPX1U

I don't know how metaphysical you intended your post to be, but I understand it at a highly metaphysical level. At one point in my life I read and was highly impressed by the Jane Roberts Seth books. "Seth" never discussed astrology so far as I recall, but he did say that souls choose the circumstances of their incarnations, and generally, the people with whom they will reincarnate with. He doesn't at all take a past lives/bad lives heavy karma approach. Rather, souls choose the circumstances most conducive to their personal growth and creativity. Souls may choose difficult lives to further particular growth trajectories. But any life, even a child who dies at birth, has a learning experience, according to Roberts/Seth.

To me, it was just a short hop from this view of life to think that if souls choose the circumstances of their birth, then there is a horoscope for it.

Sometimes when I see a really difficult chart, I think of that person as being a spiritual athlete, who wanted an extra-challenging lifetime. But of course, if the person hasn't asked for a metaphysical reading, I'm loathe to foist it on them. I mean, I think that the person wants to know when he's getting a job offer, not necessarily that he's engaged in an existential struggle. But I absolutely do take your point.

Can you link some sample of your approach to horoscope reading when the person is deeply unhappy and feels unable to progress? It would be instructive to see how you handle it.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #29  
Unread 10-31-2017, 03:02 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Hi,

My views are rather contrary to some or perhaps even most today seem to think about how "life happens", and I will not try to preach my views to anyone, but I will take this chance to elucidate them in my responses here.
Let me also say that I have gathered quite a bit of intrinsic and extrinsic proof to stick to how I believe "life happens", at least for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
...Yes. That's what all people who come on this forum believe. And I find it so annoying.

"When will I get married?"

I don't know; maybe when you propose to the person you love? You don't need a planet transit or need to wait for your spouse to make the move.
Just to be fair, when someone asks "when will I get married", it is not because they haven't had the courage to 'propose' yet, but because they do not have anyone there to propose to yet, and think that at 27, they are the only ones (which is the annoying part sometimes, but then different cultures and life situations play a role, too). Depending on what the rest of their life is like (in other areas, I mean), they might or might not take their being 27 and lonely too seriously. Either way, they do take themselves to be victims. And, that is why they look to astrology and astrologers/ us astrology-aspirants for help.

Some perhaps just even want to simply be heard and get a response back. It is like having a conversation with someone next to you. Only here it is virtual, but at least someone out there (here) is listening to you. Loneliness is very 'consuming'.

Quote:
"When will I get rich, get a girlfriend, etc..."

When you decide to.
Not really because life is not as simple as "when you decide to" and you get that. No, not even when you work for it day and night. Else we would all be able to turn all our dreams into reality. Sometimes you don't get what you want at all. Now, "getting rich" is a foolish example to use, since how does one define "rich", but there are other more concrete examples like: will we be able to save our home by paying off the mortgage? Might actually not happen, simply because you desire it to, and despite your working your behind off. Life happens, even if it sounds fatalistic.

Quote:
But free will is always a thing.
Of course, it is, or there would be no reason to get out of bed in the morning. However, "free will is a thing" within certain confines only, and that because of various factors. Some I will mention, which might make sense to those believing in absolute free will. For instance: man is a social animal, lives in a society made up of people and circumstances and events, so those serve as confines. One's own background and the opportunities available to one in life also are certain other confines.

Other factors, which I believe in, don't often make sense to those that believe in absolute free will. Those I will not get into here.

Quote:
Transits are like "markers" for victim periods of your life I guess.
Everything is for you the way you (want to) understand it to be or the way you accept it to be. Basta!

Transits are MUCH more than just "markers for victim periods" and Astrology is capable of MUCH more than just being able to talk about one's character or personality traits. Of course, that only in the hands of a good, experienced Astrologer and one that has an open mind that goes beyond just absolution of free will and everything else being absolution in terms of fatalism.

Quote:
What about the positive quality of Pluto? Like transformation and deep understanding? Did you own that?
How does transformation happen? Isn't it oftentimes through an unhappy event? That is why the outers are taken to be as malefics.
Quote:
It doesn't really matter if someone is objectively a victim or not. What matters is that they pull themselves out of the victimhood nonsense, or their life will continue to be victimized. There are people who feel victimized for the tiniest of things and live miserably. And then there are those who are real victims, who become anything but a victim.
This, AppLeo, is something I commend you for.
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  #30  
Unread 10-31-2017, 03:06 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

I think this topic is hot to touch but I do not think you are being negative on purpose Waybread but working through your own issues. I do not accuse you of not caring about people who you think to be stuck as victims but it is a bit judgemental.

I did notice that you were searching for something in yourself and for this I am saying my observation, that you also did say to another poster

“But here's the hard part. Sometimes being no more than nice to people, and buying into their self-defeating autobiography, doesn't actually give them the help they say they want.”

I think that is all people are doing for you here and we are all capable of missing the point we make to others.

Also, you said

“Obviously I'm not comparing degrees of victimhood amongst people who have experienced war, incest, cancer, rape, and battery.”

You should not compare what you see as less degrees. Itneeds to be less categorised as good and bad victimhood and say that it is more complicated than that because before they were treated like a victim or had a horrible event happen to them, were they ok? And by ok I mean what strengths were they born with and what strengths have they got from others or the material world to help them recover?

You had bad Pluto transits and you said ‘victim doldrums.’ You were able to move pass that and you are asking how come you could do it and others can’t? Maybe you felt pushed out of the doldrums but maybe you also can’t understand why people can’t move out of doldrums like you did?

I have come to the conclusion that victimhood is a negative word and should be used for people who manipulate people around them which is abuse anyway. Everything else is allowed and if someone is judgemental towards that then they have feelings of being a victim too. But I think this is about working through your own ego and not about others problems.

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  #31  
Unread 10-31-2017, 03:26 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

I think we are all victims in some way. There is always some area of life, where we are either dissatisfied, or that we are unhappy about, or at least where we feel we could have done things differently. There is always something/some area (past or present) that causes us unhappiness or fear.

On another note, I have to support Waybread on something, which I often also find to be the case. Perhaps I have understood her post differently. I find troubling (sometimes even annoying (-which has more to do with my own nature and mood on that particular day) when I hear someone repeatedly asking things like: will he accept me as his gf or bf or when will I lose my virginity because I am 25 and still don't have a bf or gf or what have you.
I think perhaps this thread is also a subtle nudge to people to wake out of self-pity and live life instead of wasting it away on playing the 'victim' or self-pity.

That said, we should also, due to the impatience or apathy of our own character, avoid judging others (despite their being only 25) because we can never know all the battles they have been fighting in their life.
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Unread 10-31-2017, 03:27 AM
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Smile Re: Victimhood: what and why?

"Victimhood culture"
"Race-shaming"
"Gender-shaming"
"Physical appearance-shaming"
"Physical ability-shaming"
"Income level-shaming"
"Intellectual ability-shaming"
"Astrological expertise-shaming"
Etc.

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  #33  
Unread 10-31-2017, 03:47 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Just to be fair, when someone asks "when will I get married", it is not because they haven't had the courage to 'propose' yet, but because they do not have anyone there to propose to yet, and think that at 27, they are the only ones (which is the annoying part sometimes, but then different cultures and life situations play a role, too). Depending on what the rest of their life is like (in other areas, I mean), they might or might not take their being 27 and lonely too seriously. Either way, they do take themselves to be victims. And, that is why they look to astrology and astrologers/ us astrology-aspirants for help.
Well they obviously won't get married if they're alone. You don't need to ask an astrology question. People who are likely to get married are people who don't need to ask a question on it.

They're just people being sad and trying to use astrology, which obviously won't help them, to make their lives feel better.

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Some perhaps just even want to simply be heard and get a response back. It is like having a conversation with someone next to you. Only here it is virtual, but at least someone out there (here) is listening to you. Loneliness is very 'consuming'.
Well if people don't care about astrology actually helping them with the silly questions they ask and they just want to be heard, then I guess it doesn't matter.

"Will I be a goat tomorrow?"

Ah, well... you have Neptune transiting your 1st house, so with imagination you can be. Having a Capricorn Rising also makes the likelihood of having goat properties ten fold.

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Not really because life is not as simple as "when you decide to" and you get that.
It actually is. Life really is that simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
No, not even when you work for it day and night. Else we would all be able to turn all our dreams into reality.
A lot of people do create dreams in reality though. Especially in countries with a high concentration of freedom. The people that don't create their dreams just don't try hard enough and are weak.

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Sometimes you don't get what you want at all. Now, "getting rich" is a foolish example to use, since how does one define "rich",
Why does it matter if a term is difficult to define or not?

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
but there are other more concrete examples like: will we be able to save our home by paying off the mortgage? Might actually not happen, simply because you desire it to, and despite your working your behind off. Life happens, even if it sounds fatalistic.
Yeah well, those people shouldn't have used their property as collateral when they borrowed money. Not my fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Of course, it is, or there would be no reason to get out of bed in the morning. However, "free will is a thing" within certain confines only, and that because of various factors. Some I will mention, which might make sense to those believing in absolute free will. For instance: man is a social animal, lives in a society made up of people and circumstances and events, so those serve as confines. One's own background and the opportunities available to one in life also are certain other confines.
90% of your life is created by yourself. 10% is just life throwing **** at you. But how you react and the choices you make really determines the quality of your life. Absolutely no doubt about that in my mind. People's lives suck because they did it to themselves.

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Other factors, which I believe in, don't often make sense to those that believe in absolute free will. Those I will not get into here.
Okay.

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Everything is for you the way you (want to) understand it to be or the way you accept it to be. Basta!

Transits are MUCH more than just "markers for victim periods" and Astrology is capable of MUCH more than just being able to talk about one's character or personality traits.
Disagree. BEcause once you start talking about transits, and other things, you walking on shallow territory. That's when astrologers abuse or make stuff up. That's where clients are begging or using confirmation bias for a certain belief. That's when things start to lose their truth.

I mean, honestly, when my Saturn return happens, I don't think I'm going to feel anything.

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Of course, that only in the hands of a good, experienced Astrologer and one that has an open mind that goes beyond just absolution of free will and everything else being absolution in terms of fatalism.
Yes.

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
How does transformation happen? Isn't it oftentimes through an unhappy event? That is why the outers are taken to be as malefics.
Yeah, because outside circumstances shouldn't matter. Your individuality and your own choices should matter.

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This, AppLeo, is something I commend you for.
Thank you.

Last edited by AppLeo; 10-31-2017 at 03:52 AM.
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Unread 10-31-2017, 04:00 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

AppLeo,

I will not be as laborious in my efforts this time around because I feel you and I are coming from two absolutely differing wavelengths and world, and one needs a) a very open mind to be willing to understand the other's POV, and b) frankly speaking I feel you still have a lot of experience in life to gain.

I could challenge and openly disagree with a lot of what you asserted, but I do not have the patience right now to substantially and convincingly refute it. Also because I feel our wavelengths on this subject do not match.

Astrology is not a 2+2=4 sort of science. It indeed is a divination. You canNOT, in my opinion, learn it by reading a handful of books. It goes much deeper than that. I know exactly when I don't understand a chart, not because it is a complicated one, but because I don't 'feel' it. Astrology is something you feel. A chart should talk to you. Pluto is not simply good or bad. I think you get where I am going with this, or perhaps not. But then there is a certain vagueness attached to it.
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Unread 10-31-2017, 04:06 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
AppLeo,

I will not be as laborious in my efforts this time around because I feel you and I are coming from two absolutely differing wavelengths and world,
I suppose.

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
and one needs a) a very open mind to be willing to understand the other's POV,
My mind is open. Just because I don't adopt and accept other people's beliefs doesn't mean I'm closed minded. If being open means accepting everyone's beliefs and not having a strong belief of your own, then I don't want to be open minded.

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and b) frankly speaking I feel you still have a lot of experience in life to gain.
Yeah, yeah that's what everyone says when I start saying something they don't agree with.

If I did agree with you, you would say I'm wise beyond my years.

There are old people who have the same views as I do.

So nice try with that argument...

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
I could challenge and openly disagree with a lot of what you asserted, but I do not have the patience right now to substantially and convincingly refute it.
Sounds like an excuse if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Also because I feel our wavelengths on this subject do not match.
You feel...

Do you think our wavelengths match?

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Astrology is not a 2+2=4 sort of science.
Must be a faulty science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
It indeed is a divination. You canNOT, in my opinion, learn it by reading a handful of books. It goes much deeper than that. I know exactly when I don't understand a chart, not because it is a complicated one, but because I don't 'feel' it. Astrology is something you feel. A chart should talk to you. Pluto is not simply good or bad. I think you get where I am going with this, or perhaps not. But then there is a certain vagueness attached to it.
Yeah, I understand what you mean. Maybe I'm just not cut out for astrology.
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Unread 10-31-2017, 04:19 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Quote:
Must be a faulty science.
That is enough for me to repeat myself: you have a lot of growing up to do in terms of experience. And no, I don't think and feel that our wavelengths match. And, when I say that, it does not singularly have to do with your not readily accepting what I said, but the manner in which you deny and that without maintaining an open-door to what has been said.

And, it is not just this thread.

A piece of advice that people gave to me also when I was hardly 20 or less is that there is lots that I will learn as "life happens" that no right "kind of science" or book can teach me. And, I know that when I will be 50 or 60, I will be much richer in what I know than I am know. And, yes, that comes with experience, and experience grows with age, and experience teaches you much more than any text book or "the right kind of science" can.
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  #37  
Unread 10-31-2017, 04:53 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

You state that you have overcome your sense of being a victim.

Good for you.

At what age and stage of your life did you come to this victory?

I ask because you seem angry that people don't just pull up their socks and stop with the self-pity because you think it's time.

Have you walked a mile in their shoes?

Do you understand the insecurities and pain of a person of color?

Or a gay person?

Your problems might be considered trivial compared to others. Regardless, you felt like a victim because of the circumstances of your life. If you had confided in a friend at the time and they told you to "pull yourself out of being a victim" would this have helped you? Or would have liked a person to listen to you, to validate your feelings and to offer emotional support?

You might have planetary aspects that make you stronger emotionally than others. My family history is littered with suicides because of situational depressions and inability to deal with certain situations. One family member took her own life because her husband left her for another women. Another took his life when he lost his job and couldn't support his family and felt like a failure.

Allow people the time to mature and evolve at their level. Allow them to accept and overcome their pain and suffering (or victim hood as you call it).


“I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.”
— Maya Angelou




Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
InfoOverload2, well, I sure can't relate to "Eye of the Tiger!" I'm not out there to street-fight with anybody. So I guess I'd opt for viewing astrology's highest use is a tool for self-awareness; and ideally, self-improvement.

This song more resonates for me during tough times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_sk3EQPX1U

I don't know how metaphysical you intended your post to be, but I understand it at a highly metaphysical level. At one point in my life I read and was highly impressed by the Jane Roberts Seth books. "Seth" never discussed astrology so far as I recall, but he did say that souls choose the circumstances of their incarnations, and generally, the people with whom they will reincarnate with. He doesn't at all take a past lives/bad lives heavy karma approach. Rather, souls choose the circumstances most conducive to their personal growth and creativity. Souls may choose difficult lives to further particular growth trajectories. But any life, even a child who dies at birth, has a learning experience, according to Roberts/Seth.

To me, it was just a short hop from this view of life to think that if souls choose the circumstances of their birth, then there is a horoscope for it.

Sometimes when I see a really difficult chart, I think of that person as being a spiritual athlete, who wanted an extra-challenging lifetime. But of course, if the person hasn't asked for a metaphysical reading, I'm loathe to foist it on them. I mean, I think that the person wants to know when he's getting a job offer, not necessarily that he's engaged in an existential struggle. But I absolutely do take your point.

Can you link some sample of your approach to horoscope reading when the person is deeply unhappy and feels unable to progress? It would be instructive to see how you handle it.
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Unread 10-31-2017, 05:12 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Natural loss of loved ones or incidental loss of loved ones. Victim to natural occurrence or accidental.

Bus did not arrive on time, late to an appointment. Victim to circumstance.

Abused as child.
Victim to the lack of empathy they share between each other.
Victim to their lack of control.
Victim to their outbursts.
Victim to their obsession.
Victim to their laziness.
Victim to their instability.

Etc.. could go on with that one.

Everyone is a victim, it's just that some people are able to be a victim on other levels.

The ones you truly need to worry about are the ones who go silent never opening it up to the world ever, not even to close people, these ones are likely to let it eat them alive.

-Robin Williams.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...ide-widow-says









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Unread 10-31-2017, 05:18 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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That is enough for me to repeat myself: you have a lot of growing up to do in terms of experience.
What does that have to do with anything?

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
And no, I don't think and feel that our wavelengths match. And, when I say that, it does not singularly have to do with your not readily accepting what I said, but the manner in which you deny and that without maintaining an open-door to what has been said.
I have an open door to things that make sense. I don't open my door to ideas that don't make sense.

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
And, it is not just this thread.

A piece of advice that people gave to me also when I was hardly 20 or less is that there is lots that I will learn as "life happens" that no right "kind of science" or book can teach me. And, I know that when I will be 50 or 60, I will be much richer in what I know than I am know. And, yes, that comes with experience, and experience grows with age, and experience teaches you much more than any text book or "the right kind of science" can.
Sure, I guess.
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Unread 10-31-2017, 05:24 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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Unread 10-31-2017, 05:27 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Funny people are always the most depressed.
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Unread 10-31-2017, 05:30 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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Funny people are always the most depressed.
Not entirely.

It's just a perspective view point of a man with a mind of nothing but brokenness, it ate his mind, he took his own life.
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Unread 10-31-2017, 05:32 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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Not entirely.

It's just a perspective view point of a man with a mind of nothing but brokenness, it ate his mind, he took his own life.
He has North Node conjunct Moon in Pisces. I bet depression was haunting him ever since he walked this Earth.
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Unread 10-31-2017, 05:32 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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He had North Node conjunct Moon in Pisces. I bet depression was haunting him ever since he walked this Earth.
Possibly.

One of the finest actors to have ever graced screens though, legendary.
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Unread 10-31-2017, 05:35 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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Possibly.

One of the finest actors to have ever graced screens though, legendary.
I freaking love this song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8rnMc22AG8
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  #46  
Unread 10-31-2017, 05:44 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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You state that you have overcome your sense of being a victim.

Good for you.

At what age and stage of your life did you come to this victory?
Blackbery, it is hardly a one-time process. We can stop feeling victimized by our parents in our 30s, and some time later, begin to feel victimized by a spouse or a job. Late in life, people might feel victimized by poor health, estrangement from family, or especially by death of loved ones. I would say that my life got a whole lot better in my late 50s, as I was able to take an early retirement and move to a beautiful part of the world.

Quote:
I ask because you seem angry that people don't just pull up their socks and stop with the self-pity because you think it's time.
I'm hardly angry, Blackbery! Perplexed, yes. You seem angry at me.

Quote:
Have you walked a mile in their shoes?

Do you understand the insecurities and pain of a person of color?

Or a gay person?
Obviously we can never fully understand what life feels like to another person. But we can listen, and we can try. I follow a lot of news, and am particularly concerned about social justice and human rights issues.

What about you, Blackbery? How would you rate your own sensitivity?

Quote:
Your problems might be considered trivial compared to others. Regardless, you felt like a victim because of the circumstances of your life. If you had confided in a friend at the time and they told you to "pull yourself out of being a victim" would this have helped you? Or would have liked a person to listen to you, to validate your feelings and to offer emotional support?
Blackbery, I took the old "est" training in 1980 (now Landmark) and continued with their seminars and workshops as my location permitted through about 1994. http://www.landmarkworldwide.com/ I don't know if you're familiar with them, but this was/is one of the human potential movements. The old "est" training was actually pretty brutal, although Landmark today seems to have gone more for corporate clients.

While I no longer wish to participate in Landmark, and I believe that founder Werner Erhard retired in disgrace, in 1980 it was a huge wake-up, precisely because this training wasn't about touchy-feely emotional support, but about becoming more honest with ourselves, and letting go of the kinds of disempowering stories we tell ourselves. It has continued to shape a lot of my outlook.

After that I also put myself into therapy with a clinicalpsychologist to deal with debilitating PTSD, and twice into marriage counseling. I have some spiritual convictions, also, that I find helpful. Thankfully my life now is going pretty well, and I am blessed with a loving husband, family, and some dear friends, but I don't take anything for granted.

Quote:
You might have planetary aspects that make you stronger emotionally than others. My family history is littered with suicides because of situational depressions and inability to deal with certain situations. One family member took her own life because her husband left her for another women. Another took his life when he lost his job and couldn't support his family and felt like a failure.
Blackbery, I am sorry for your bereavements. As I said in my OP, I don't deny or trivialize actual tragedies that people encounter, or debilitating mental health conditions. I lost both my parents by the time I was 35, and a brother in 2014 from cancer. My mother descended into depression and alcoholism at the end of her life. It's not like we don't need to grieve.

My concern is more with what seems to be people who are unwilling to let go of disempowering self-images, even when their narratives about themselves make them really unhappy. I think they want their lives to improve, or they wouldn't come here. Surely astrology opens a window for chronically unhappy people to feel better about themselves.

Quote:
Allow people the time to mature and evolve at their level. Allow them to accept and overcome their pain and suffering (or victim hood as you call it).
Well, we can hardly do otherwise, can we? We don't control their lives.

Quote:

“I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.”
— Maya Angelou
A great quote! Thanks, Blackbery.
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Unread 10-31-2017, 05:48 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Waybread,

I hope I didn't give you the impression of being hurt or defensive since I'm not in the slightest.

I felt that you are trying to understand a behavior (full stop).

I wanted to add my experience for data purposes.

For everyone:

From what I'm reading it seems that there should be a discussion about self-victimization as a coping mechanism. And, does this lead to manipulative behavior. Example: I have a cousin who had a really hard life, and she exploits her pain to control her environment. I think she feels powerless, so she manipulates people, so they're off-centered and don't trust their own judgement. People don't call her on it because of her past. Personally, I don't see them as being the same thing. You shouldn't get a pass on human kindness. Everybody's idea of kindness is different, but it should still be what we lead with when trying to understand others.

I also think their should be a discussion of how we are socialized to see these topics. We have a habit of trying to make things black or white, right or wrong, bad or good, and the real world is just not built that way.

This definitely a hot topic. I hope we can nourish curiosity in these threads with an open-mind and a little kindness.

Blessings,

Amber
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Unread 10-31-2017, 06:10 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

UKpoohbear, thanks for your thoughtful post. Yes, victimhood did turn out to be too hot a topic! I'd say I felt misunderstood, but that would be sort of victim-like, so I won't.

I didn't come to this thread to work through personal issues, but to become more effective at reading horoscopes for people who obviously want a reading, and often advice, or they wouldn't come here. I thought the community would have some suggestions, which has definitely been the case.

At my age, frankly, the big issues are more about bodily aches and pains than inter-personal issues with the nice people in my real life. My husband is 78, and while he's in super health, we need to be realistic about the later years of life. Transiting Saturn will hit all of my chart angles in a few years. Saturn rules old age, so I'm starting to think about how best to use it constructively. So that's kind of my life issues, for now.

I don't worry about a lot of issues that afflict younger people, in terms of my own life, because they are in my rear-view mirror.

I really believe in the 3 statements at the bottom of my posts. If I had space for a 4th aphorism, it would be a Hindu saying,

"When I don't know who I am, I serve you. When I know who I am, I am you."
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #49  
Unread 10-31-2017, 06:20 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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Waybread,

I hope I didn't give you the impression of being hurt or defensive since I'm not in the slightest.
Oh, no. I thought your post was great.

Quote:
I felt that you are trying to understand a behavior (full stop).

I wanted to add my experience for data purposes.
Yes, and thanks.

Quote:
For everyone:

From what I'm reading it seems that there should be a discussion about self-victimization as a coping mechanism. And, does this lead to manipulative behavior. Example: I have a cousin who had a really hard life, and she exploits her pain to control her environment. I think she feels powerless, so she manipulates people, so they're off-centered and don't trust their own judgement. People don't call her on it because of her past. Personally, I don't see them as being the same thing. You shouldn't get a pass on human kindness. Everybody's idea of kindness is different, but it should still be what we lead with when trying to understand others.
Good points. I think a lot of us have or had someone like that in our lives.

Quote:
I also think their should be a discussion of how we are socialized to see these topics. We have a habit of trying to make things black or white, right or wrong, bad or good, and the real world is just not built that way.

This definitely a hot topic. I hope we can nourish curiosity in these threads with an open-mind and a little kindness.

Blessings,

Amber
Let's do. Thanks, Amber.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #50  
Unread 10-31-2017, 07:45 AM
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Rawiri Rawiri is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

I would say that a lot of people don't fall into either of the camps (that is, wanting a prediction or wanting to figure out how to change).

Many people just want some understanding of "why" their life is the way it is. Something they can point to and gives a kind of order to what they might otherwise see as a random, chaotic life. A lot of people just want some sense of order and happen to seek it in astrology.

I consider that somewhat different to "being a victim" although it does lend itself towards that.

Regardless, I think if giving astrology readings it is probably ideal to just "give people what they come for."

Different people have different wants and needs. Some do just want a prediction, plain and simple. They don't want to hear any philosophies on life.

Others just want a sounding board for once in their life, or to be understood and understand in some way what is going on and a "why" for it that they can point to.

I often fail at that because my own bias gets in the way. But it's really not my place to give someone chocolate ice cream when they ask for strawberry. And we shouldn't be surprised if they throw it in our face when we try.
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