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Unread 10-29-2017, 10:42 PM
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Victimhood: what and why?

Hi folks-- so, I'm not going to express myself well or be able to give this topic the sensitivity it deserves, but.... how do you explain victimhood (def: a person who has been harmed or injured by another or external event, *type A and type B) in a chart?

Mostly people come to an astrology forum because they're unhappy or mightily bothered by something. We don't see OPs stating, "I'm really popular, happily married, and rich: how do you explain that?"

Usually we see people who are truly lonely, upset at how their lives have gone, financially broke, and so on. Sometimes their conditions are only temporary, sometimes they seem to be life-long. In reading horoscopes, our commitment is to be helpful to them: but sometimes this seems impossible.

*Type A: People who have a strong, objective case for being a victim: an abused child, a war or famine refugee, a persecuted religious minority.

*Type B. People who feel victimized by events that happen to a majority of people in one way or another: a bad break-up with a lover, few friends, a feud with a family member, unemployment, low self-esteem.

These categories are not entirely discrete: sometimes people whom I would classify as objectively victimized have a positive can-do attitude towards life, sometimes turning their personal tragedy into a positive commitment to help others in a similar situation. Sometimes a lonely person seems deeply committed to sustaining an unhappy isolation vs. trying to improve her situation.

Sometimes "victims" simply want us to tell them when the stars will hand them a desirable mate, clear out their debts, or hand them a job. Sometimes with no thoughts that we can be the authors of our own misfortunes, in which case, there's more inner work to be done. They don't want an astrological truth that might suggest there's no job or mate in sight.

I stress that people with a mental health condition, like clinical depression, are kind of a special case. They cannot "think" themselves happy, but oftentimes they can mitigate their condition with medication, therapy, or self-help activities like yoga. Also, an addict by definition cannot "think" himself out of an addiction.

What is your take on the problem? Do some people choose to understand themselves as victims rather than taking positive steps toward to improve their lives in ways consistent with their horoscopes? If so, are they actually an opening for astrological advice on how to improve their situation? If so, how would you express your advice such that the person is open to your horoscope reading?

What would be the horoscope placements for self-defined victims, if any?

Neptune? Chiron? Saturn?

Your thoughts?

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Unread 10-30-2017, 01:01 AM
belabismo belabismo is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

I think non-astrologically it just depends on a person's resiliency and sensitivity, which could be indicated by a chart. My mom has had a very hard life and a lot of instability and literal violence and poverty in her formative years, but she is resilient in her own way and successful by most standards. She worked really hard at her career and is financially successful, organized, and is good at managing her home and finances. Although, things are not all rosey, and I say this without malice, I think she is lacking in emotional intelligence and has a hard time maintaining healthy relationships - she literally has no friends, just family, and she was never good at 1-to-1 emotional relating to me. But I also think this is a defense mechanism to keep it all together - i.e. toughen up or fall apart. She also is prone to excessive worrying and I think she relies too much on sleeping pills at times. Regardless, I think she has done the best she can with what she had and I admire her drive and resilience.

I think as far as giving advice to others, you can do the best you can, and they have to realize that no one is going to solve their problems for them. I think people's turning points will be when they realize they are responsible for their unhappiness. Not to say they are alone or are responsible for any kind of abuse they faced as they are not, but when they take action to build a better life for themselves, they need to realize that, while people will be there to help them, no one can do it for them. That being said, I think society needs to be there as much as they can for people down on their luck to help them help themselves.

I think people who are lacking in earth, who have an abundance of water, and also an abundance of Pisces and Neptune will have problems seeing clearly and taking action in their lives.

Perhaps there's a few "types" of people who are resistant to positive change:

1) Neptunian extra-sensitive/lack of boundaries types
2) Plutonic paranoid/manipulative-types
3) Saturnine stubborn/bitter types ?
4) combinations of all the above

I don't want to give off the impression I'm judging though, I've been all of these people.

I think too, people who blow small life struggles out of proportion probably never learned how to manage their emotions well early in life. That's my struggle too.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 01:51 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

I see a lot of wisdom in your post, belabismo:

The concept of "emotional intelligence."

"no one is going to solve their problems for them...people's turning points will be when they realize they are responsible for their unhappiness."

"I don't want to give off the impression I'm judging though, I've been all of these people."

Thanks for your thoughts on astrological placements. I was thinking perhaps a lot of planets in fixed signs could be a problem in that this might represent problems in being adaptable or flexible when life doesn't hand out what we want-- or think we deserve.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 03:36 AM
AppLeo AppLeo is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

It doesn't really matter if someone is objectively a victim or not. What matters is that they pull themselves out of the victimhood nonsense, or their life will continue to be victimized. There are people who feel victimized for the tiniest of things and live miserably. And then there are those who are real victims, who become anything but a victim.

A lot of people turn to astrology for more answers, but astrology doesn't help with that stuff. It never does. That's just my opinion. I think 90% of astrology is just ********. Chart reading is the only thing that works when it comes to your personality. But transits or whatever that try and predict something in your life... They are kind of like energies you can either ride with or not ride with. But those energies really aren't going to change your life because what you choose to do is what's going to determine your future. A planet isn't just gonna enter a sign or aspect a planet in your chart and throw something in your life to make it better!! Victimized people think life happens to them, but life is actually you happening to it.

I think a lot of people just want to complain and be given sympathy, too. And that's okay, but it doesn't serve any practical or logical purpose for them or anyone else, except maybe keeping astrologers or psychotherapists in business. I think people also like to be victims because they don't feel like they deserve to be happy. And because of that they play the martyr.

I think anyone can be a Type A victim no matter what chart.

The people that are Type B victims, IMO, are Cancer Suns and Sun-Neptune people. Sometimes Sun-Saturn (kind of) make themselves victims with negative thoughts and actions. Sun-Pluto can also feel victimized because they experience everything so intensely.. But just because you experience or feel victimized doesn't mean you are a victim. If that makes any sense at all.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 04:34 AM
ShadowStriker ShadowStriker is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Hey waybread:

I'm currently a third year mechanical engineering student. I have my MET, and am very fluent in psychology. I'm fascinated by the mind and understanding one's behavior. It would later have me expand my knowledge into sociology, workplace management and behaviors, studying cultural interactions, and neurological research (predominately understanding the chemical precursor to various neurological disorders). I also struggle with OCD, giving a life-time experience to be able to empathize with issues related to the mind.

In saying that, I think the first approach to any study is understanding the terminology used. Afterwards, we can then explore possible clausal structures that may explain the behavior.

Victimhood, or more commonly coined as "playing the victim," is described by the fabrication of events, or self-pity, to justify one's actions pertaining to abuse, manipulation, and so forth. It can also be used to exploit a situation to gain social recognition (similar to what has been done here). In saying that, it is not used in situations of someone seeking help; an individual apologizing for their behavior or explaining their behavior; nor someone who shares experiences pertaining to abuse done to them; response to abuse or "reverse abuse"; etc. In fact, someone asking when they'll have an opportunity to love again has zero connection to, or relating to, victimization. Such assumptions would clearly indicate someone lacking a proper understanding of the terminology used or situations pertaining to emotional trauma such as those listed above. Or, as belabismo describes such characteristics as "low emotional IQ".

One who plays the victim would actually share experiences where they justify their abusive, or excessive behaviors, thus excusing or justifying their actions being warranted. Take note, these individuals will manipulate the situation in their favor. They place themselves as the victim as opposed to the individual that harm was done to. For example, let's consider a child crying over spilled milk is later assaulted by their parent. The parent would "play the victim" by downplaying the experience felt by the child where the real trauma is experienced in the guilt felt by the parent Then then justify their excessive use of force by their individual dissatisfaction caused by the individual feeling pain (i.e. the child). This can also be said for individuals who gaslight. For example, say your SO is undergoing a panic-attack. They resort in beating the victim until their panic-attack subdues. The guilt they experience afterwards is shown in either denial, or claiming their force is justified because of the individual discomfort felt by the abuser. Here, one justifies their actions by the pain felt by another, voiding their own experience, and playing justified cause on themselves and that other's should feel sorry for them. Obviously, the one who was viciously beaten acting irrationally and the real victim is the one who committed the crime. Furthermore, one seeking help, who later denies help from a specific individual and asks them politely to step away as they process the "help" they received, and who later continues to overwhelm the individual, claiming they are playing the victim, in which later has them removed communication with said individual, to later find them addressing the topic to other people because of their defeat (superiority complex maybe?) is also a sign of self-victimization to a rather avoidable conflict between two individuals. They would later describe this person as being inept, emotionally undeveloped, whiny, or as put, playing the victim.

Such behavior is greatly correlated to individuals who suffer severe lack of self worth or low esteem. This is common in people with rather shallow, or weak egos that are greatly attuned to the recognition, either positively or negatively of their victim. A distinct lack of empathy is clearly depicted in these situations. Such individuals may also express traits related to the Martyr complex, mother/father complex, and other complexes related to, or of traits that exhibit the need to help or command others. It is also indicative of an individual who is incapable of accepting guilt or responsibility. I would see this more so to fiery-water people. Water sun, fire-moon combinations would share the personalities where such behaviors would easily brew. Water-water combinations of people who have experienced numerous trauma in their life. Many people with various fixed signs, fiery-earthy people as well. Mutuals would be less likely to possess these behaviors.

Next time, when asked to back off, respect the individual requesting it. You're being overwhelming. Move on. Some people just want to be listen to, or heard, or have gone to such lengths as seeking astrology because they're defeated, or feel hopeless. Some people are actually genuine, and if you fail at providing help, and they request you step away, respect that. Be empathetic for goodness sakes'

Blocked...again. Back off.

Last edited by ShadowStriker; 10-30-2017 at 04:55 AM.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 05:04 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

AppLeo, thanks for responding. I am not surprised to see your libertarian views expressed on this thread! While I do not share your politics or some of your views on astrology (surprise, surprise,) I see a lot of wisdom in these statements:

"Victimized people think life happens to them, but life is actually you happening to it."

" I think people also like to be victims because they don't feel like they deserve to be happy. And because of that they play the martyr."

To me, your first statement suggests a kind of astro-determinism or fatalism, where people don't see themselves as controlling their own lives, but as pawns at the effect of external forces.

Your second statement seems to come up a lot, where people not only feel unhappy, but don't think they'll ever feel happy due to some kind of internal flaw. Oftentimes it seems to relate to a hard contact from Saturn, Neptune, or Chiron to the sun (sense of self.)

Is this something that a horoscope reading can help to fix?

I will say that normally I don't feel victimized, but I went through a very difficult period in my life; which corresponded to transits from Pluto to my natal sun and then Mars. Since Pluto transits take a while, I went into victim doldrums for some time.

In hindsight, I don't think I owned my inner Pluto during this period-- its bullying, ruthless quality is something I definitely defined as "not me."
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 10-30-2017 at 05:07 AM.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 05:33 AM
CancerEvolve CancerEvolve is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Talking about it here won't help anyone, how about pro-active help for these people?

There is a thin line of difference of those looking to find themselves and understand themselves and progress, and those playing the victim.


I am all of what was just thrown under the bus as these "types"


Saturn opposite Sun and Jupiter, yet Jupiter conjunct Sun.
Chiron conjunct Sun and Jupiter.
3rd Decan Cancer Sun (Pisces triplicity) and Pisces rising.
Pluto trine Sun and Jupiter.


There seems to be the opposing personalities, and the confirmation biased type people, and then the folk who sometimes get it spot on.

As an example, modern feminists run on the model of confirmation bias, oh you are male and are arguing? you must be a woman hater.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 05:45 AM
AppLeo AppLeo is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
AppLeo, thanks for responding.
You're welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I am not surprised to see your libertarian views expressed on this thread! While I do not share your politics or some of your views on astrology (surprise, surprise,) I see a lot of wisdom in these statements:
My views aren't final. I could be totally wrong... Or that there's just different perspectives and they're all right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
"Victimized people think life happens to them, but life is actually you happening to it."

" I think people also like to be victims because they don't feel like they deserve to be happy. And because of that they play the martyr."

To me, your first statement suggests a kind of astro-determinism or fatalism, where people don't see themselves as controlling their own lives, but as pawns at the effect of external forces.
Yes. That's what all people who come on this forum believe. And I find it so annoying.

"When will I get married?"

I don't know; maybe when you propose to the person you love? You don't need a planet transit or need to wait for your spouse to make the move.

"When will I get rich, get a girlfriend, etc..."

When you decide to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Your second statement seems to come up a lot, where people not only feel unhappy, but don't think they'll ever feel happy due to some kind of internal flaw. Oftentimes it seems to relate to a hard contact from Saturn, Neptune, or Chiron to the sun (sense of self.)

Is this something that a horoscope reading can help to fix?
I think it definitely helps. It helps you understand who you are and you're likely to do with your life and what will make you happy.

But free will is always a thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I will say that normally I don't feel victimized, but I went through a very difficult period in my life; which corresponded to transits from Pluto to my natal sun and then Mars. Since Pluto transits take a while, I went into victim doldrums for some time.

In hindsight, I don't think I owned my inner Pluto during this period-- its bullying, ruthless quality is something I definitely defined as "not me."
Transits are like "markers" for victim periods of your life I guess.

What about the positive quality of Pluto? Like transformation and deep understanding? Did you own that?
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Unread 10-30-2017, 05:47 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Cancer Evolve, thanks for posting. What would pro-active help look like to you, given the limits of an Internet astrology forum?

I ask because I see chart-reading as a kind of 6th house thing, coming from a sense of service. Whether serving other people actually happens, of course, is highly variable.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 10-30-2017, 05:50 AM
CancerEvolve CancerEvolve is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Victims will rarely if ever come out and say it was not right what they did, in fact that is the opposite of what would be "victimhood"

Because in 99% of cases there is some underlying thing the person explaining what went on did something to cause a reaction, i'm one who has also and i look back and think i could have handled this much better, but that is par course of learning through life.


Does anyone believe in sharing experiences to offer a reality that others are not accustomed to?
I ask this because i have a knack for going in depth sometimes with some stuff that i share, and that could easily be interpreted as being a "victim"

In the specific case of the time it happened i was a victim yes, but would a victim expose themselves on top of giving out the information they have?

Mention above is that fixed signs struggle to see any differently, yet the entire view point here is very narrow and not broad minded at all, assuming that people can all land in one bag of cement and be stuck there because this or that is in their chart or you perceive it as such.

There are cases of damning evidence for such behavior, but before you decide to truly embark upon a discussion of who you find to be playing a victim, it's best that you research what it is and how these people effect others and themselves.


Victim type people cannot push forwards, they lack assertiveness where it counts and usually have their own interests in mind only. They lack emotional intelligence which was pointed out before in previous posts.


People also need to recognize emotional state of the person who is this "victim"

Person is angry? they may portray the energy of the Mars they have and any aspect to it, this does not mean it's them to their core, which is a problem with society as a whole, they only judge on what they deem they can see.



I can go on and on and go far deeper than this and give you examples but i'm typing loads already

Last edited by CancerEvolve; 10-30-2017 at 05:53 AM.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 05:52 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Cancer Evolve, thanks for posting. What would pro-active help look like to you, given the limits of an Internet astrology forum?

I ask because I see chart-reading as a kind of 6th house thing, coming from a sense of service. Whether serving other people actually happens, of course, is highly variable.
Have you ever offered your true support via words, gave out real ways of overcoming a problem, giving continued self esteem boosts to people and make them feel genuinely good?

It don't take much, but i am naturally dis-positioned to do this as such.

There are people you cannot help and that is just life but at least you attempted to go where most folk won't, and you may gain a true friend for being the genuinely helpful person you were setting out to be.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 06:06 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post

What about the positive quality of Pluto? Like transformation and deep understanding? Did you own that?
My goodness, AppLeo-- what's in the drinking water? (Or sky?) I actually support what you just posted about people taking the initiative vs. waiting for something to happen.

In terms of the positive qualities of Pluto, what I got from a rough period in my life was thinking that it's important to metaphorically kill off anything dead or dying in our lives so that we create space for something new to flourish. Pluto metaphorically kills off what is "not me" (even when we thought it was,) and trying to hang onto that "not me" stuff is a painful and losing proposition. Pluto asks us to step off the ledge into the unknown, which can be frightening. But if we let him teach us, Pluto shows us our enormous reservoirs of inner strength.

Just my take on it, anyway.

ShadowStriker, thanks for making those important distinctions.

Quote:
Victimhood, or more commonly coined as "playing the victim," is described by the fabrication of events, or self-pity, to justify one's actions pertaining to abuse, manipulation, and so forth. It can also be used to exploit a situation to gain social recognition...
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 10-30-2017, 06:06 AM
blackbery blackbery is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Everyone suffers, therefore, everyone is a 'victim'.
You say that nobody writes on the forum that they are popular,
happily married and rich. What does this statement even mean?
That a popular rich happily married person never experiences problems,
doesn't suffer?
They do. They lose loved ones, they get cancer, they can lose all their money or their spouse dies or cheats on them.
Do you read every post, know the circumstances of everyone's life?
You choose to categorize 'victims' in your neat little column of 'legitimate' victims to what? Illegitimate victims?
Suffering is suffering. How can we compare a war refugee to a child who has been sexually abused in his rich family? Or a happily married rich man who is diagnosed with brain cancer that will kill me in his 30s to a women who was raped and almost beaten to death?
Nobody can judge another. If people are lonely or anxious about finding employment then why is their pain less legitimate in your view?
Are you a purveyor of what 'true' suffering is?

You cannot interpret a natal chart this way. Everybody processes their pain differently depending on many factors. Would you prefer that nobody post about their problems because they are making themselves 'victims'.
The only people who are truly free of pain are those who are liberated from this world. That's a handful right now.

Suicide is at an all time high in the Western world because people have lost all hope. Are they victims too? Many people who take their own lives put on a happy facade while planning their own deaths. You cannot judge a book by its' cover.
Or maybe, just maybe, they are in a position where all they need is an ear or a helping hand to get them through their hell at the time. Less judgement and more compassion is needed in this world.

Younger people are very vulnerable to being 'victims' as they tend to lack the insight and the experience to deal with issues which may appear insignificant to you but are daunting and over-whelming to them.

If you lack water or fire in your chart, then it's easy to have little empathy or compassion for others.


BB



Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Hi folks-- so, I'm not going to express myself well or be able to give this topic the sensitivity it deserves, but.... how do you explain victimhood (def: a person who has been harmed or injured by another or external event, *type A and type B) in a chart?

Mostly people come to an astrology forum because they're unhappy or mightily bothered by something. We don't see OPs stating, "I'm really popular, happily married, and rich: how do you explain that?"

Usually we see people who are truly lonely, upset at how their lives have gone, financially broke, and so on. Sometimes their conditions are only temporary, sometimes they seem to be life-long. In reading horoscopes, our commitment is to be helpful to them: but sometimes this seems impossible.

*Type A: People who have a strong, objective case for being a victim:
an abused child, a war or famine refugee, a persecuted religious minority.

*Type B. People who feel victimized by events
that happen to a majority of people in one way or another: a bad break-up with a lover, few friends, a feud with a family member, unemployment, low self-esteem.

These categories are not entirely discrete: sometimes people whom I would classify as objectively victimized have a positive can-do attitude towards life, sometimes turning their personal tragedy into a positive commitment to help others in a similar situation. Sometimes a lonely person seems deeply committed to sustaining an unhappy isolation vs. trying to improve her situation.

Sometimes "victims" simply want us to tell them when the stars will hand them a desirable mate, clear out their debts, or hand them a job. Sometimes with no thoughts that we can be the authors of our own misfortunes, in which case, there's more inner work to be done. They don't want an astrological truth that might suggest there's no job or mate in sight.

I stress that people with a mental health condition, like clinical depression, are kind of a special case. They cannot "think" themselves happy, but oftentimes they can mitigate their condition with medication, therapy, or self-help activities like yoga. Also, an addict by definition cannot "think" himself out of an addiction.

What is your take on the problem? Do some people choose to understand themselves as victims rather than taking positive steps toward to improve their lives in ways consistent with their horoscopes? If so, are they actually an opening for astrological advice on how to improve their situation? If so, how would you express your advice such that the person is open to your horoscope reading?

What would be the horoscope placements for self-defined victims, if any?

Neptune? Chiron? Saturn?

Your thoughts?
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Unread 10-30-2017, 06:15 AM
blackbery blackbery is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

I do not know you so I'm asking you a question.
Do you read charts on the forum to help others or is it an ego thing?
So you can say to yourself "Look how good and kind I am.
I responded to a person with my astrology know-how and I feel really good about how wonderful I am".

Only you know the answer but think about it carefully.





Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Cancer Evolve, thanks for posting. What would pro-active help look like to you, given the limits of an Internet astrology forum?

I ask because I see chart-reading as a kind of 6th house thing, coming from a sense of service. Whether serving other people actually happens, of course, is highly variable.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 06:19 AM
CancerEvolve CancerEvolve is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Here would be an example of me being the victim or playing it.

Other day i went a bit nuts on AW, and i said some things that hurt more sensitive people.

I got PM'd and warned for my behavior, and some stuff that was written to me was actually someones vindictiveness, now i could say oh why am i being told i did this and that? when i did not!!!

No instead i took it in my stride and i said perhaps it's karma for being the A-hole i was being, as i mentioned, people judge with their own eyes and depth of perception.


On top of this, the things said may be their perception and what is more sensitive to them, where as to me and others they will not perceive that.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 06:31 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
My goodness, AppLeo-- what's in the drinking water? (Or sky?) I actually support what you just posted about people taking the initiative vs. waiting for something to happen.


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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
In terms of the positive qualities of Pluto, what I got from a rough period in my life was thinking that it's important to metaphorically kill off anything dead or dying in our lives so that we create space for something new to flourish. Pluto metaphorically kills off what is "not me" (even when we thought it was,) and trying to hang onto that "not me" stuff is a painful and losing proposition. Pluto asks us to step off the ledge into the unknown, which can be frightening. But if we let him teach us, Pluto shows us our enormous reservoirs of inner strength.

Just my take on it, anyway.
I agree with that for sure. We are afraid to let go what we are comfortable with. But you live a boring life if you only live what's comfortable. That's why Pluto transits or people induce intense experiences.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 06:34 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbery View Post
Everyone suffers, therefore, everyone is a 'victim'.
You say that nobody writes on the forum that they are popular,
happily married and rich. What does this statement even mean?
That a popular rich happily married person never experiences problems,
doesn't suffer?
They do. They lose loved ones, they get cancer, they can lose all their money or their spouse dies or cheats on them.
Please do not misunderstand me, Blackbery. Of course normally happy people experience problems-- that goes without saying. My point was that people who seek astrological advice tend to feel unhappy and that's why they come here. Some (not all) of these people seem to come from a position of victimhood, which the dictionary defines as:

"one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent...such as a one that is injured... under any of various conditions (a victim of cancer, a victim of the auto crash,) ... one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment, one that is tricked or duped (a con man's victim.)"

Quote:
Do you read every post, know the circumstances of everyone's life?
You choose to categorize 'victims' in your neat little column of 'legitimate' victims to what? Illegitimate victims?
Suffering is suffering. How can we compare a war refugee to a child who has been sexually abused in his rich family? Or a happily married rich man who is diagnosed with brain cancer that will kill me in his 30s to a women who was raped and almost beaten to death?
Blackbery, I appreciate your passion for the subject, and compassion for people who are objectively victims by any standards. But please don't misunderstand me. Obviously I'm not comparing degrees of victimhood amongst people who have experienced war, incest, cancer, rape, and battery.

Quote:
Nobody can judge another. If people are lonely or anxious about finding employment then why is their pain less legitimate in your view?
Are you a purveyor of what 'true' suffering is?
Well, haven't you just judged me, blackbery? I'm a complete stranger, but you have my number, right?

Quote:
You cannot interpret a natal chart this way. Everybody processes their pain differently depending on many factors. Would you prefer that nobody post about their problems because they are making themselves 'victims'.
I agree that different people process their pain differently. People are free to post what they like. The question is, if they come to an astrology forum asking for assistance or advice, is it really possible to help people who see themselves as victims, to the point where they are unwilling to change their self-image?

Quote:
The only people who are truly free of pain are those who are liberated from this world. That's a handful right now.

Suicide is at an all time high in the Western world because people have lost all hope. Are they victims too? Many people who take their own lives put on a happy facade while planning their own deaths. You cannot judge a book by its' cover.
Or maybe, just maybe, they are in a position where all they need is an ear or a helping hand to get them through their hell at the time. Less judgement and more compassion is needed in this world.
I agree.

Quote:
Younger people are very vulnerable to being 'victims' as they tend to lack the insight and the experience to deal with issues which may appear insignificant to you but are daunting and over-whelming to them.
I agree.

Quote:
If you lack water or fire in your chart, then it's easy to have little empathy or compassion for others.


BB
Blackbery, I have an enormous amount of compassion for people. It's why I started this thread. Unfortunately, as I indicated in my OP,

Quote:
I'm not going to express myself well or be able to give this topic the sensitivity it deserves, but...
But my sense of compassion is such that I think a feeling of being victimized is sometimes (not always) by more ordinary life events does not make people happy. And that a horoscope will often (not always) point the way to a more fulfilling life.
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Last edited by waybread; 10-30-2017 at 06:37 AM.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 06:47 AM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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Originally Posted by blackbery View Post
I do not know you so I'm asking you a question.
Do you read charts on the forum to help others or is it an ego thing?
So you can say to yourself "Look how good and kind I am.
I responded to a person with my astrology know-how and I feel really good about how wonderful I am".

Only you know the answer but think about it carefully.

Well, as I said at the outset, I thought this OP might reactivate people. Little did I know....

Blackbery, I ask myself your question all the time. I hope to come from a position of helpfulness, not out of a sense of ego. It feels a bit more like a calling, actually; but over the course of so many posts, obviously I don't hit it right all the time.

I view horoscope reading as a bit like a batting average: nobody bats 1000, but we keep trying. Sometimes, as you noted above, sometimes all people want is someone to respond to them with compassion.

But here's the hard part. Sometimes being no more than nice to people, and buying into their self-defeating autobiography, doesn't actually give them the help they say they want.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 12:32 PM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Does 'victimhood' cover every perception of what I think of in terms of a Neptune influence. Saturn can add the 'reality experience'.

Neptune is what is known as a 'planet of the masses'. I tend to think of this in the sense that everyone has/can undergo moments of negative Neptune type influences such as feelings of hysteria, persecution, lack of faith, neglect, abuse, insanity, that can lead to seeing circumstances from an illogical viewpoint.

On Waybread's 'Causality' thread on this and the other astro. site, Livingsky made a remark about someone's comment regarding being 'a victim'. She stated how she was not a victim within herself but 'a victim' of an event outside herself that CAUSED what happened to her. I.o.w, she didn't instigate it herself.

I think this can be a realm that falls outside of the A and B category Waybread noted in #1. Events that happen TO a large section of humanity through no immediate action/thought/ feeling of their own. Natural disasters that leave people homeless, ethnic cleansing that difuses different faiths from each other, viral diseases/parasites that invade and disintegrate, all of which need the 'other side' of Neptune in those who forget themselves and voluntarily/ willingly provide the aid to help their fellow man.
[I discount the influence of self-indulging Neptune type substances because that is personal choice.]

I read once somewhere that the difference between a direct and retrograde outer planet is that the direct motion planet is connected to the 'masses' influence of its generation, but a retrograde planet does not feel this association. It isn't that the retro. planet concerned is more 'personal' minded (which, imho, is when there are aspects to personal planets ), but that that which the planet represents on a generation level doesn't 'click' (my use of word) with them.
With Neptune this can mean 'alienation' and 'disassociation' from others. Is this what 'victimhood' feels like?

I have an article (from other site) concerning the Victim and Persecutor roles.
It makes very interesting reading regarding Neptune's aggressive side.
As a Pisces Sun with a Saturn-Neptune influence once remarked to me, 'there are goldfish, but also sharks.'
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Unread 10-30-2017, 05:41 PM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Thanks, Frisiangal. Can you link that article?

Neptune is one slippery fish. Liz Greene, in her book on Neptune, said it has to do with a longing to merge with the divine, with an attendant self- or ego-annihilation in the process. When a strongly Neptunian person feels this divine separation too keenly, s/he is apt to take short-cuts, through drugs, drink, or more benign forms of escapism.

This quality of self-sacrifice (or split-off, of being sacrificed) can lead to feelings of victimization, as well.

Because Neptune tends to blur or dissolve what it touches, a sun-Neptune hard aspect can make it hard to sustain a healthy sense of one's identity.

Neptune doesn't show us what is (that's Saturn) but what might have been, might be, could be.

Obviously I distinguish between people who arguably author at least some of their own misfortune vs. people who experience serious tragedies, or a diagnosed mental illness like depression.

From my OP:

Quote:
*Type A: People who have a strong, objective case for being a victim: an abused child, a war or famine refugee, a persecuted religious minority....
I stress that people with a mental health condition, like clinical depression, are kind of a special case. They cannot "think" themselves happy, but oftentimes they can mitigate their condition with medication, therapy, or self-help activities like yoga. Also, an addict by definition cannot "think" himself out of an addiction.
But I'm thinking of the other type of victim, which to me seems more self-imposed, or people who lack--or do not wish to acquire-- the resilience to let go of life's ordinary disappointments. I'm thinking of a former colleague of mine, who entered our then-male oriented discipline as one of the few and early women in the field in the late 1960s. Her own family background was pretty upper-crust, so she was used to being treated with respect. As you can imagine, the men back then didn't treat her with the dignity and collegiality she deserved. But many years later (1990s, and as a tenured faculty member, so she'd done all right) when I first met her, she still felt outraged by their disrespect of her decades ago. And these weren't evil men-- most of them were still around when I joined the department. Just insensitive to her feelings and traditional, perhaps.

It's this kind of thing that to me (and admittedly not standing in her shoes, blackbery) that makes me wonder whether we can do anything to assist people to live happier lives or create more empowering self-images. Yes, as AppLeo noted, they have to be willing to walk through the door. But can we even open it for them?

Friesiangal, I hope you will say more about your take on medical astrology, in which a physical symptom may be a manifestation of a troubled inner state.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 07:29 PM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Me personally I always consider the term "victimhood" as something more of a manipulative tool used by narcissistic personality types to justify their behavior towards others.

That being said I did play this card in my early twenties and I don't necessarily consider myself to be a narcissist though I do have an ego like all people. Mine stemmed from the fact that I was annoyed that I as an adult had to fix the s*** that other people broke in my life that I had nothing to do with. And to say I was livid could be an understatement.

I used to always say "we're the only species on this planet that has to spend 60 years getting over our first 18."

I also think if people haven't been taught good coping mechanisms in life and they don't know how to self-soothe, victimhood is kind of like a way of trying to do that for themselves. Since you need this resolution, but you don't know how to facilitate it, so this is the closest you get to it.

Some people don't realize they're not drowning. They literally think they're drowning, but it's just that nobody has ever told them just to stand up. That they're really only in two feet of water. They don't have "bigger picture" perspective. The question is in the long run do they want perspective?, do they want to have a better life?, do they think that they're capable of having a better life?, do they think they're worthy of having a better life?

I was drawn to astrology because I liked the idea of having a label to something I was feeling, it made it tangible for me. I felt more in control. Maybe, that is another concept to consider feeling powerless.

As for the natal chart I would say hard aspects from Saturn, Neptune, or Pluto to the Sun, Moon, or Chiron (house placement), maybe even Mercury since that is your information relay.

I was think what if someone comes off like a "victim", but doesn't feel that way, would that be planets in the first house in hard aspect?

My natal markers: Moon conjuncts Saturn(♍,11th) squares Neptune (♐,2nd) Mercury(♌,10th) squares Chiron-r(♉,7th).
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Unread 10-30-2017, 09:08 PM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

There is a distinction between someone whom feels a victim but uses that to empower themselves or others, and someone whom is paralyzed by it. Why the paralysis happens, I think, is largely due to a lack of faith in oneself to enact change (and, if we are being honest, that might not be an erroneous conclusion).

I think of that experiment with the dogs and learned helplessness, where the dogs would not leave a cage even when the opportunity presented itself. Experimentally, those dogs could be fully aware that their fate was not in their own hands (I mean, paws), whether experimenters opened the door or not. We cannot know their consciousness, and there lies the flaw of the experiment. It is not a defect to recognize your own power or lack of it. One could see those dogs as broad minded, knowing the cage was controlled by the humans, in which case rejecting the situation entirely is not irrational or helpless. They imposed limitation on themselves only according to mere observation of not participating in the game, as interpreted by their oppressors.

We are all going to experience happiness or sorrow or whatever of the many states of consciousness we can possibly be in at any given moment. Surrendering to the experience of where you are is necessary in order to move into another state. Astrology is a path to validation and explanations for the state you are in, and so it can be a part of that process.

Personally: I know a woman whom is the martyr type, that always feels she is being wronged, no matter the intentions of her supposed aggressors. She is manipulative and secretive, but tries to come off as guileless. It baffled me and made me uncomfortable around her.

Then she told me a story from when she was a teenager. She said she dated a boy in high school for a year or so, and then found out he was molesting her little sister, and had been for months. She said she had never stopped feeling guilty - that she brought someone like that into her sister's life, and that she couldn't see what was happening or who this guy really was.

I suddenly understood that this woman did not trust her own judgement, and so to be safe she made everyone a potential threat. She has repeated experiences to reinforce the insecurity and expectation of betrayal. She seems to believe she doesn't deserve consideration, support, to be heard, or to be loved. She martyrs herself for all this guilt, but is still angry and distrustful at the same time, making herself a constant victim.

It became clear that in order to be comfortable, and to quell her paranoia, she required validation for her perceptions. She lights up when someone agrees with her, like she never expects it to happen. Every bit of support counts. So, that is what I do. If I agree with her, I am sure to let her know. I make sure she knows her input and ideas and views are valuable to me (because they are). I have seen people behave the opposite with her, berate and belittle, and it is so destructive - she cries and cannot handle it. It is upsetting.

I find that many people are looking for validation concerning their experience. Consistent, but honest, validation can help a person come to terms with their feelings of being wronged. You cannot really help anyone if you hold onto expectations about how they should act and feel (as with the dogs, whom "should" know they can leave the cage if it is open). Healing and coming to terms with yourself and your situation can be a slow process.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 09:22 PM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

Some good wisdom in your post, applesandlilacs.

Quote:
I used to always say "we're the only species on this planet that has to spend 60 years getting over our first 18."
I wasn't sure "victim" was the best word, given that a critic could apply it pejoratively (as in, "Stop playing the victim card!" or that a person who was genuinely hurting could take it as such. However, this potential to weaponize the word "victim" by either party could occur with any synonyms for victim, such as self-pity, victim or martyr complex, suffering, scapegoat, and so on. Not to mention our manipulative terms like "guilt trip."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr_complex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutory_delusion

The flip side is for the aggrieved person to charge the seemingly unsympathetic person with other weaponized terms like narcissist, Pollyanna, insensitive, and so on. We could imagine that a partner who is tired of listening to a lot of whining and complaining (notably about him and his personal shortcomings) does not have to be a diagnosed narcissist to want to tune out the unhappy GF.

Then gaslighting is an interesting concept. If I maintain a certain position, coming from my reality-grounding, and someone else denies my truth-claims and says, "No, this isn't what really happened," or "This isn't what life is like," is that person trying to sneakily undercut me (gaslighting) or does s/he simply have a legitimate disagreement and view of reality that I'm unwilling to entertain?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

As you point out, control issues could easily be involved, on both sides.

I have to stress that I didn't begin this thread to offend anybody, or to self-justify. It's regretable that ShadowStriker and I had a recent interaction that ended negatively, but honestly, my questions about victimhood and horoscope readings had been cooking along in my mind for some time previously.

I should also mention that I have ample episodes from my own life that would objectively situate me as a victim, ranging from what I, in hindsight, believe to have been child abuse to domineering job supervisors who seemingly set out to destroy my career. (I received a settlement from a human rights complaint that I filed, in support of the latter claim.) I know what it's like to be married to an abusive problem drinker.

It's not like I'm running around like Pollyanna, pasting a happy face on my own life experience. I'm not saying that others can or even should buck up and get over their unhappiness, whatever it might be.

It's more that, if people who request a reading on this forum actually are unwilling to even consider improving their lot through others' insights or suggestions, can we really do very much, other than offering sympathy?

Or even less effectively, buying into someone's self-defeating narrative? It just perplexes me when people are unhappy about themselves, and have adopted a really negative astrological reading to explain-- but not improve-- their lot.

I've played the victim at times in my life. I've felt in charge at times in my life. I just think that feeling in charge of one's life works a lot better. When that's possible.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Last edited by waybread; 10-30-2017 at 09:24 PM.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 11:31 PM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Thanks, Frisiangal. Can you link that article?
I did a search for 'Victim and Persecutor' and clicked on a 3-page replies from a thread sometime in 2010.
Went on to look for further threads with same keywords, and couldn't get back to first one!! Have tried to find it again but I think I must have overworked the Astro.com search engine. It now says nothing found!
You may have better luck.

The article I have was put together for me by a former member. I don't know how and where she got it all from.

Quote:
Neptune is one slippery fish. Liz Greene, in her book on Neptune, said it has to do with a longing to merge with the divine, with an attendant self- or ego-annihilation in the process
.

She says a lot more in that book.

Quote:
Neptune doesn't show us what is (that's Saturn) but what might have been, might be, could be.
I disagree. Neptune is a physical planet. The possibilities of its functional characteristics are therefore visible for all to see........but if an individual chooses not to see them????
The coulda's, woulda's, shoulda's, might be's images, can fall under Neptune's faith in what is possible. When they aren't and/or can never physically exist/occur, they are more to be found in Black Moon Lilith's realm.

Quote:
Friesiangal, I hope you will say more about your take on medical astrology, in which a physical symptom may be a manifestation of a troubled inner state
Holistic astrology works from the practise that spirit-mind-feelings-body should work in unison. If one part is out of synch., the occuring imbalance can find an outlet through a physical dis-order or dis-ease.

I think that 10 years of postings in the Medical Astrology section might offer co-incidental explanations of occurances during life, although there is no logical answer for the 'why' of inherent disorders from birth. I have not studied the astrology of past life/reincarnation/karma theories which cannot be physically proven to correlate with discomforts. It's this life that counts.

As previously mentioned, Neptune is strongly associated with anything viral, parasitical, toxic, alien to the total human organism that can invade, weaken, poison, and disintegrate its immune system. It precedes the final stage of organic destruction of Pluto. It's said that Neptune symptoms are difficult to find and diagnose; yet they ARE there. A reason that allowing renovative change (Uranus) to occur that alters all outdated patterns (Saturn....limit of physical body.....skin?) BEFORE they get under the skin, can keep sickness at bay.
Aaaah; a Neptunian music of the future pipe dream?
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Unread 10-30-2017, 11:33 PM
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Re: Victimhood: what and why?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Some good wisdom in your post, applesandlilacs.



I wasn't sure "victim" was the best word, given that a critic could apply it pejoratively (as in, "Stop playing the victim card!" or that a person who was genuinely hurting could take it as such. However, this potential to weaponize the word "victim" by either party could occur with any synonyms for victim, such as self-pity, victim or martyr complex, suffering, scapegoat, and so on. Not to mention our manipulative terms like "guilt trip."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr_complex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutory_delusion

The flip side is for the aggrieved person to charge the seemingly unsympathetic person with other weaponized terms like narcissist, Pollyanna, insensitive, and so on. We could imagine that a partner who is tired of listening to a lot of whining and complaining (notably about him and his personal shortcomings) does not have to be a diagnosed narcissist to want to tune out the unhappy GF.

Then gaslighting is an interesting concept. If I maintain a certain position, coming from my reality-grounding, and someone else denies my truth-claims and says, "No, this isn't what really happened," or "This isn't what life is like," is that person trying to sneakily undercut me (gaslighting) or does s/he simply have a legitimate disagreement and view of reality that I'm unwilling to entertain?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

As you point out, control issues could easily be involved, on both sides.

I have to stress that I didn't begin this thread to offend anybody, or to self-justify. It's regretable that ShadowStriker and I had a recent interaction that ended negatively, but honestly, my questions about victimhood and horoscope readings had been cooking along in my mind for some time previously.

I should also mention that I have ample episodes from my own life that would objectively situate me as a victim, ranging from what I, in hindsight, believe to have been child abuse to domineering job supervisors who seemingly set out to destroy my career. (I received a settlement from a human rights complaint that I filed, in support of the latter claim.) I know what it's like to be married to an abusive problem drinker.

It's not like I'm running around like Pollyanna, pasting a happy face on my own life experience. I'm not saying that others can or even should buck up and get over their unhappiness, whatever it might be.

It's more that, if people who request a reading on this forum actually are unwilling to even consider improving their lot through others' insights or suggestions, can we really do very much, other than offering sympathy?

Or even less effectively, buying into someone's self-defeating narrative? It just perplexes me when people are unhappy about themselves, and have adopted a really negative astrological reading to explain-- but not improve-- their lot.

I've played the victim at times in my life. I've felt in charge at times in my life. I just think that feeling in charge of one's life works a lot better. When that's possible.
I think the worst thing someone can do is to oppose someone's internal struggle.

Acknowledge their pain, acknowledge that their persona and life was
to an extent predetermined. And that if they are experiencing severe hardships it means that they are here to slay giants.

Think about it: If you're in a fight - do you want to hear "Eye of The Tiger" or "Let me explain what you can do to fix yourself and stop complaining".

When I see someone suffering, now I just know that their soul's journey is a tough one. And they haven't come to terms with "the weight of choice". My choices that I struggle with, aren't yours, or hers, etc. So you can go through life making your easy choices and ignoring the ones that truly lead to betterment.

"Why me" - when someone asks this they should be told that they are suffering because they are learning. It is a test. How are you gonna perform?

How far in your life do you want to go? Do you have what it takes to push past your pain? Do you have what it takes to acknowledge that the space you exist in at this very moment is horrible? Can you keep searching? Can you choose to act on your awareness of struggle?
Even if people die without finding their peace and contentment in this life, their soul will learn lessons.

It is hard to transform. There is a compulsive nature to pain, and victimhood. It's safe there, it's void of change. & change is directly linked to awareness. Then comes the weight of choice, internally. It doesn't work if the person hears it from you or me. The technique of interpreting a natal chart or therapy, should be trying to raise awareness.
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