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Unread 11-14-2020, 05:05 PM
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Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

Hi Astrology weekly! How has everyone been? Iím just here to discuss about Saturn because Iím feeling drawn to it at the moment. Mind if I drop a little something here? I promise it wonít be anything outrageous


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Unread 11-14-2020, 05:06 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

When I read the myth about the mythical correspondent to the planet Saturn it does make a lot of sense. According to Hesiod’s Theogony, it is said that the titan Kronos had devoured all of his children because of his paranoia that his status would be overthrown by one of his five (Zeus aka Jupiter hadn’t been born as of yet) children. See! that theme of judgement, karma and retribution is here for the myth on the deity associated to Saturn (Is not Saturn a planet often associated to Karma, lessons and cycles?!). Kronos feared that his day will come when he would be meet with judgement for his previous deeds to his own father. Now I would like to share what I found interesting about this myth is the possibility that after Saturn had swallowed his children, he had stunted their growth as they remained trapped in his stomach or slowed their growth but simultaneously he was delaying his own judgement (which I find increases the impact of it).

We know the events that transpired afterwards. Zeus helped release his siblings and defeat his father in the end. Now I ask, what if none of those events would have transpired and Kronos did not swallow any of his children? Well according to Hesiod’s theory on the five ages of man, the golden age aka the first age of man had been under the reign of Kronos. Humans in that age did not grow to be older but regressed to be young and younger in till they transformed into a Daemon (which is ultimately a lesser deity in itself). Men and Gods would have been coexisting in harmony. It must seem strange that a god who has associations to the planet Saturn (Saturn itself) has such a peaceful reign.

However, it is the birth of Zeus that changed this and he has associations to the planet Jupiter. A planet that signifies expansion and growth. What does that say about the reign of Kronos? It says that though these humans were living in a state of harmony, peace and comfortability, humanity’s progression was stagnant, slow to move forward and delayed because of Saturn’s reign and that makes sense! because of Saturn’s associations. Again, Humans were becoming young rather than growing to old age but when Zeus came into power that reversed and humans begun to age. It probably took for Zeus to come into the scene for their to be growth to occur for humanity in the first place. To have an independence for humanity.

When I read about Saturn, I feel this is a planet can either be useful or detrimental. It all about your perception of it and your own reaction to it in your own life. This planet can be utilize to help identify what would need to be changed (similar to the myth of Saturn) and what is remaining stagnant and what lesson must be learnt so that growth can start to come into the picture. Saturn can be negative or positive but I’ve noticed from the myth and life events that it can have an impact either direction it goes. I find it is so intriguing that the planet Saturn and Jupiter is under the sign of Capricorn and it will be there for at least two years. According to the myth of Kronos, it can be seen as an interaction between Saturn and Jupiter. There interaction to each other had an impact or should I say a shift on humanity according to the myth because it is really a transition of power myth. Interesting I can say the least.
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Last edited by Thirdteenth; 11-14-2020 at 05:09 PM.
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Unread 11-14-2020, 05:17 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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Originally Posted by Thirdteenth View Post
When I read the myth about the mythical correspondent to the planet Saturn it does make a lot of sense. According to Hesiodís Theogony, it is said that the titan Kronos had devoured all of his children because of his paranoia that his status would be overthrown by one of his five (Zeus aka Jupiter hadnít been born as of yet) children. See! that theme of judgement, karma and retribution is here for the myth on the deity associated to Saturn (Is not Saturn a planet often associated to Karma, lessons and cycles?!). Kronos feared that his day will come when he would be meet with judgement for his previous deeds to his own father. Now I would like to share what I found interesting about this myth is the possibility that after Saturn had swallowed his children, he had stunted their growth as they remained trapped in his stomach or slowed their growth but simultaneously he was delaying his own judgement (which I find increases the impact of it).

We know the events that transpired afterwards. Zeus helped release his siblings and defeat his father in the end. Now I ask, what if none of those events would have transpired and Kronos did not swallow any of his children? Well according to Hesiodís theory on the five ages of man, the golden age aka the first age of man had been under the reign of Kronos. Humans in that age did not grow to be older but regressed to be young and younger in till they transformed into a Daemon (which is ultimately a lesser deity in itself). Men and Gods would have been coexisting in harmony. It must seem strange that a god who has associations to the planet Saturn (Saturn itself) has such a peaceful reign.

However, it is the birth of Zeus that changed this and he has associations to the planet Jupiter. A planet that signifies expansion and growth. What does that say about the reign of Kronos? It says that though these humans were living in a state of harmony, peace and comfortability, humanityís progression was stagnant, slow to move forward and delayed because of Saturnís reign and that makes sense! because of Saturnís associations. Again, Humans were becoming young rather than growing to old age but when Zeus came into power that reversed and humans begun to age. It probably took for Zeus to come into the scene for their to be growth to occur for humanity in the first place. To have an independence for humanity.

When I read about Saturn, I feel this is a planet can either be useful or detrimental. It all about your perception of it and your own reaction to it in your own life. This planet can be utilize to help identify what would need to be changed (similar to the myth of Saturn) and what is remaining stagnant and what lesson must be learnt so that growth can start to come into the picture. Saturn can be negative or positive but Iíve noticed from the myth and life events that it can have an impact either direction it goes. I find it is so intriguing that the planet Saturn and Jupiter is under the sign of Capricorn and it will be there for at least two years. According to the myth of Kronos, it can be seen as an
interaction
between
Saturn

and

Jupiter. There interaction to each other had an impact or should I say a shift on humanity according to the myth because it is really a transition of power myth. Interesting I can say the least.





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Unread 11-14-2020, 08:16 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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Originally Posted by Thirdteenth View Post
When I read the myth about the mythical correspondent to the planet Saturn it does make a lot of sense. According to Hesiodís Theogony, it is said that the titan Kronos had devoured all of his children because of his paranoia that his status would be overthrown by one of his five (Zeus aka Jupiter hadnít been born as of yet) children. See! that theme of judgement, karma and retribution is here for the myth on the deity associated to Saturn (Is not Saturn a planet often associated to Karma, lessons and cycles?!). Kronos feared that his day will come when he would be meet with judgement for his previous deeds to his own father. Now I would like to share what I found interesting about this myth is the possibility that after Saturn had swallowed his children, he had stunted their growth as they remained trapped in his stomach or slowed their growth but simultaneously he was delaying his own judgement (which I find increases the impact of it).

We know the events that transpired afterwards. Zeus helped release his siblings and defeat his father in the end. Now I ask, what if none of those events would have transpired and Kronos did not swallow any of his children? Well according to Hesiodís theory on the five ages of man, the golden age aka the first age of man had been under the reign of Kronos. Humans in that age did not grow to be older but regressed to be young and younger in till they transformed into a Daemon (which is ultimately a lesser deity in itself). Men and Gods would have been coexisting in harmony. It must seem strange that a god who has associations to the planet Saturn (Saturn itself) has such a peaceful reign.

However, it is the birth of Zeus that changed this and he has associations to the planet Jupiter. A planet that signifies expansion and growth. What does that say about the reign of Kronos? It says that though these humans were living in a state of harmony, peace and comfortability, humanityís progression was stagnant, slow to move forward and delayed because of Saturnís reign and that makes sense! because of Saturnís associations. Again, Humans were becoming young rather than growing to old age but when Zeus came into power that reversed and humans begun to age. It probably took for Zeus to come into the scene for their to be growth to occur for humanity in the first place. To have an independence for humanity.

When I read about Saturn, I feel this is a planet can either be useful or detrimental. It all about your perception of it and your own reaction to it in your own life. This planet can be utilize to help identify what would need to be changed (similar to the myth of Saturn) and what is remaining stagnant and what lesson must be learnt so that growth can start to come into the picture. Saturn can be negative or positive but Iíve noticed from the myth and life events that it can have an impact either direction it goes. I find it is so intriguing that the planet Saturn and Jupiter is under the sign of Capricorn and it will be there for at least two years. According to the myth of Kronos, it can be seen as an interaction between Saturn and Jupiter. There interaction to each other had an impact or should I say a shift on humanity according to the myth because it is really a transition of power myth. Interesting I can say the least.

Very interesting, indeed, Thirdteenth, and I agree especially agree with your observation that
"a planet can either be useful or detrimental. It all about your perception of it and your own reaction to it in your own life."
I think in modern astrology that this could be held true for all the planets, not just Saturn. Our perceptions shape the world, and recognizing that affords us a more spacious inner life to be present with what is going on, inside and outside. It is particularly helpful when doing modern astrological delineations.
I welcome your posting further thoughts as they may arise.
Best wishes,
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Unread 11-15-2020, 02:12 AM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

I experience my "hard" Saturn transits as times of change. An astro friend suggested that's because I have natal Saturn t-squaring Uranus and Jupiter, which automatically get activated along with Saturn when a transit pokes it.
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Unread 11-17-2020, 03:55 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

I have understood that Saturn manages change but does not create it. The changes come after the management of change has becomes stagnate? I see Mars as the true catalyst for change. Mars is exalted by Saturn. They seem to make plans together.
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Unread 11-17-2020, 08:50 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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I have understood that Saturn manages change but does not create it. The changes come after the management of change has becomes stagnate? I see Mars as the true catalyst for change. Mars is exalted by Saturn. They seem to make plans together.
How do Mars and Saturn align in your natal chart? Do you have an aspect between them?

If so, Mars and Saturn work together for you.
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Unread 11-18-2020, 04:53 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

It is strange how modern astrology normalises everything and says it is all your perception, a planet can be good or bad depends on how you take it. Then Saturn is just like your granny who gives you cookies regardless you behave proper or rude.

The conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter in Capricorn will impact the world irrespective of the types of countless perceptions of modern astrologers and the people who follow modern astrology. The planets do not care about how puny humans perceive them to be they have a job and they will do the job very thorough!

That being said, Saturn by its nature does not do anything to act as a catalyst for change. Saturn transits throw cold water on many things so a bringer of stagnation. Now the perception comes into the picture, if something happens over a very long time with hardly noticeable differences some may call it a change, I would call it a process, as you can identify some point in time events to relate to and actually call it a change (beginning of the transit and the end of the transit). Human psyche sees change as something concrete and palpable that happen in transits of other plants.

But as mentioned above Saturn has a job to do, so along with Jupiter something happens in the world that would cause people to see the differences as changes. The scale changes the perception here.
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Unread 11-18-2020, 04:57 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
It is strange how modern astrology normalises everything and says it is all your perception, a planet can be good or bad depends on how you take it. Then Saturn is just like your granny who gives you cookies regardless you behave proper or rude.

The conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter in Capricorn will impact the world irrespective of countless perceptions of modern astrologers and the people who follow modern astrology. The planets do not care about how puny humans perceive them to be they have a job and they will do the job very thorough!

The early 1960's Jupiter-Saturn Capricorn Generation brought a lot of Capricorn Saturn stelliums into the world in late 80's early 1990's and now some of their kids are in their 30's and with new children born into the conjunctions of the cold wars of past.
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Unread 11-18-2020, 05:11 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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The early 1960's Jupiter-Saturn Capricorn Generation brought a lot of Capricorn Saturn stelliums into the world in late 80's early 1990's and now some of their kids are in their 30's and with new children born into the conjunctions of the cold wars of past.
I don't follow what you are trying to say.
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Unread 11-18-2020, 09:12 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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I experience my "hard" Saturn transits as times of change. An astro friend suggested that's because I have natal Saturn t-squaring Uranus and Jupiter, which automatically get activated along with Saturn when a transit pokes it.
Hi! Osamenor That is so intriguing. In your case it would be change rather than stagnation. Must be really interesting shake ups and wake ups I love a testimonial. I believe it gives information more weight to it. Thank you for sharing. Highly appreciated!
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Unread 11-18-2020, 09:18 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
It is strange how modern astrology normalises everything and says it is all your perception, a planet can be good or bad depends on how you take it. Then Saturn is just like your granny who gives you cookies regardless you behave proper or rude.

The conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter in Capricorn will impact the world irrespective of the types of countless perceptions of modern astrologers and the people who follow modern astrology. The planets do not care about how puny humans perceive them to be they have a job and they will do the job very thorough!

That being said, Saturn by its nature does not do anything to act as a catalyst for change. Saturn transits throw cold water on many things so a bringer of stagnation. Now the perception comes into the picture, if something happens over a very long time with hardly noticeable differences some may call it a change, I would call it a process, as you can identify some point in time events to relate to and actually call it a change (beginning of the transit and the end of the transit). Human psyche sees change as something concrete and palpable that happen in transits of other plants.

But as mentioned above Saturn has a job to do, so along with Jupiter something happens in the world that would cause people to see the differences as changes. The scale changes the perception here.
Hi! lostinstars You must have misunderstood what I had said above. I can clarify it for you. When I said it is all about your perception, I am referring to the affect that Saturn would have rather than Saturn the planet itself. It seems that your stance leans towards Saturn being a bringer of stagnation. Now, if we were to apply what had been said about perception then it would be how a person would react or perceive to an encounter of stagnation in their own life. For example (your example Thank you for sharing), if Saturn were to embody a grandparent and they were to disturb cookies then it would be how the grandchild is reacting to it. Not the grandparent themselves. Also, I find it interesting that you would use the cold water analogy to describe a Saturn transit. Mentally noted!


Thank you for sharing your opinions It is really appreciated. Iím genuinely learning a lot from it. Do you mind if I mentally note all of what you just said into my human brain? I feel that this will be useful information for later reference in my own studies.
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Unread 11-18-2020, 10:11 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

Beautiful graphics, Thirdteenth!

To paraphrase Stephen Forrest, no planet is in the sky just to hurt us.

Traditionally it was just seen as self-evident that bad things happened to people, and Saturn became the primary astrological box in which those bad things got placed.

The shift to seeing Saturn as something other than the Greater Malefic was spurred by Liz Greene's book in the 1970's: Saturn: a New Look at an Old Devil.

Saturn does want something from us: maturity, self-discipline, and stoicism. He tends to reward his apt pupils later in life.
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Unread 11-18-2020, 10:36 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
It is strange how modern astrology normalises everything and says it is all your perception, a planet can be good or bad depends on how you take it. Then Saturn is just like your granny who gives you cookies regardless you behave proper or rude.
No, that's Jupiter. Saturn's m.o. is different....

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
The planets do not care about how puny humans perceive them to be they have a job and they will do the job very thorough!
Exactly. Planets are just being themselves. They don't care about us in any personal way. They're not invested in rewarding or punishing us, and they don't, at least not deliberately. We can reap a planet's rewards or incur its consequences through how we respond to it, but that part is up to us.

And then, planets and their transits can also just throw things at us, impersonally. Misfortune isn't necessarily deserved, but if you happen to be caught in the crosshairs of certain planetary transits, that's when you have an accident, become a victim of crime, lose a job, or whatever other nasty things can happen in life. Good fortune, same thing. Just like we don't control the local weather, but we can enjoy the sunshine or get caught in a storm.

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That being said, Saturn by its nature does not do anything to act as a catalyst for change. Saturn transits throw cold water on many things so a bringer of stagnation.
But what Saturn is poking by transit might be a catalyst for change. When t-Saturn pokes a planet, or natal Saturn is in aspect with a planet that gets woken up by the same transits as the ones that wake up Saturn, that planet responds out of its nature. Sometimes the nature of the response is the catalyst for change.

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For example (your example Thank you for sharing), if Saturn were to embody a grandparent and they were to disturb cookies then it would be how the grandchild is reacting to it.
But Saturn would not be the kind of grandparent who distributes cookies. Saturn would be the strict kind, who insists on hard work and good behavior, and adherence to tradition. More like Baba Yaga than indulgent grandma (Baba Yaga's penchant for assigning impossible tasks is quite Saturnian, I would say).
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Unread 11-19-2020, 04:24 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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Hi! lostinstars You must have misunderstood what I had said above. I can clarify it for you. When I said it is all about your perception, I am referring to the affect that Saturn would have rather than Saturn the planet itself. It seems that your stance leans towards Saturn being a bringer of stagnation. Now, if we were to apply what had been said about perception then it would be how a person would react or perceive to an encounter of stagnation in their own life. For example (your example Thank you for sharing), if Saturn were to embody a grandparent and they were to disturb cookies then it would be how the grandchild is reacting to it. Not the grandparent themselves. Also, I find it interesting that you would use the cold water analogy to describe a Saturn transit. Mentally noted!
Hello Thirdteenth! If I meet with a bad accident in a bad Saturn transit and break bones, worse disabled, my perception towards the event does not do any good to me. I cannot say my pain will go away or I can walk again if I change my perception towards the accident. All I can say to myself and do is accepting that it was a bad event that I met with an accident and this is how my life changes from this point and then move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirdteenth View Post
Thank you for sharing your opinions It is really appreciated. Iím genuinely learning a lot from it. Do you mind if I mentally note all of what you just said into my human brain? I feel that this will be useful information for later reference in my own studies.
Not at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
No, that's Jupiter. Saturn's m.o. is different....
I wanted to say grumpy granny but felt lazy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
But what Saturn is poking by transit might be a catalyst for change. When t-Saturn pokes a planet, or natal Saturn is in aspect with a planet that gets woken up by the same transits as the ones that wake up Saturn, that planet responds out of its nature. Sometimes the nature of the response is the catalyst for change.
I guess you could say that well put but in truest sense Saturn is more like the initiator for something new and decayer of old things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
But Saturn would not be the kind of grandparent who distributes cookies. Saturn would be the strict kind, who insists on hard work and good behavior, and adherence to tradition. More like Baba Yaga than indulgent grandma (Baba Yaga's penchant for assigning impossible tasks is quite Saturnian, I would say).
Exactly but you will get nothing by doing every impossible task, it is Baba Yagaís perverse pleasure to discipline kids because she thinks this is how kids should behave.

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Last edited by Osamenor; 11-19-2020 at 04:57 PM.
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Unread 11-19-2020, 05:13 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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I don't follow what you are trying to say.

The Jup/Sat generation of 1960's were born into cold wars and living wars all over the world. By 1988 -1990's - the generation was in their late 20's and early 30's and gave birth to their own *Saturn Cap children, with stelliums, during the cold wars of the middle east and the fight against communism. Now, those children born *then, 30 some years later, will birth kids that have the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction, alongside their parents and grandparents who share those planetary signatures and returns. ***Cold Comfort***

Last edited by Kintpuash; 11-19-2020 at 05:52 PM.
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Unread 11-19-2020, 05:44 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Hello Thirdteenth! If I meet with a bad accident in a bad Saturn transit and break bones, worse disabled, my perception towards the event does not do any good to me. I cannot say my pain will go away or I can walk again if I change my perception towards the accident. All I can say to myself and do is accepting that it was a bad event that I met with an accident and this is how my life changes from this point and then move on.
That is very true, and that's Saturn: hard, uncompromising reality. Bones, too.

I know a man that happened to. His legs got so thoroughly shattered that his doctors thought he would never walk again.

He went through intense physical therapy and got to where he could walk a little, with a cane, but he was still in chronic pain and still disabled.

Then he took up tai chi, and worked that very intensely. He says that was very painful, too.

That was some 20-30 years ago. Now he teaches tai chi, in addition to practicing it constantly. He has no trouble walking, much less doing the tai chi, although he says he starts feeling pain if he's standing for many hours. But he's in better physical shape, overall, than many people his age.

An example of a Saturnian event bringing change. But I doubt he saw it as a positive thing at the time, or even in those first few years.

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Exactly but you will get nothing by doing every impossible task, it is Baba Yagaís perverse pleasure to discipline kids because she thinks this is how kids should behave.
Finding a creative loophole to complete the impossible task keeps you from being eaten by Baba Yaga.

In the stories, I don't think she comes across so much as a disciplinarian, as playing by her own rules, which is a higher, older law than human law. You're in her forest, you're in her domain, and here, fill this sieve with water and don't let any run out. (That's a koan if there ever was one!) The higher law that transcends human law is also a function of Saturn.
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  #19  
Unread 11-19-2020, 06:16 PM
Kintpuash Kintpuash is offline
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

I learned that the reason for pain is the moon's ruler and house position and its condition to moon and saturn in the chart. Does a child born into screaming and panic do better than the child born during a home birth or hospital birth? The moment a person is born is 'everyone who was in the room' messing with the vote, so to speak.


Saturn's unlucky job is to manage the moon's pain, not create it. As the moon moves so quickly, Saturn is always busy. Mercury is the bringer, early, late, or on time. But in the end days - Mars is catalyst for change by action alone, even in retrograde. It is exalted by Saturn. The record keeper. If you look at someone's chart who has mars, saturn, moon, mercury aspects - they could probably answer this conceptual question in real terms. What is stagnation, What is change? It would be interesting to look at.
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  #20  
Unread 11-20-2020, 12:56 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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The Jup/Sat generation of 1960's were born into cold wars and living wars all over the world. By 1988 -1990's - the generation was in their late 20's and early 30's and gave birth to their own *Saturn Cap children, with stelliums, during the cold wars of the middle east and the fight against communism. Now, those children born *then, 30 some years later, will birth kids that have the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction, alongside their parents and grandparents who share those planetary signatures and returns. ***Cold Comfort***
The reason I said I don’t follow is because I was not sure what were you trying to imply with this new generation of kids post the great conjunction. Were you saying it happened regardless of the perception modern astrology advocates or not? I’m still not sure what your position on this by giving that data point. Sorry

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That is very true, and that's Saturn: hard, uncompromising reality. Bones, too.

I know a man that happened to. His legs got so thoroughly shattered that his doctors thought he would never walk again.

He went through intense physical therapy and got to where he could walk a little, with a cane, but he was still in chronic pain and still disabled.
Of course I know what kind of sick joke Saturn plays with humans. I will die without ever hearing from a modern astrologer that Saturn is really bad and the so called gifts it gives are not for your personal joy but for using the gifts to serve the society and humanity, and that the gifts will never work for yourself. Modern astrology always says Saturn will get you into Ivy League and you don’t have to take student loan and on top he will give you extra cash for drugs, sex and rock & roll.

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In the stories, I don't think she comes across so much as a disciplinarian, as playing by her own rules, which is a higher, older law than human law. You're in her forest, you're in her domain, and here, fill this sieve with water and don't let any run out. (That's a koan if there ever was one!) The higher law that transcends human law is also a function of Saturn.
Well Saturn’s domain is same as Baba Yaga’s forest, the only difference is the forest starts from the core of the Saturn all way to the core of Earth. We never had any say and we never will, unless aliens blow up the planet.

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Originally Posted by Kintpuash View Post
I learned that the reason for pain is the moon's ruler and house position and its condition to moon and saturn in the chart. Does a child born into screaming and panic do better than the child born during a home birth or hospital birth? The moment a person is born is 'everyone who was in the room' messing with the vote, so to speak.
I doubt, Hitler had moon in Capricorn, he didn’t experience any pain compared to the pain he inflicted on the humanity.

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Saturn's unlucky job is to manage the moon's pain, not create it. As the moon moves so quickly, Saturn is always busy. Mercury is the bringer, early, late, or on time. But in the end days - Mars is catalyst for change by action alone, even in retrograde. It is exalted by Saturn. The record keeper. If you look at someone's chart who has mars, saturn, moon, mercury aspects - they could probably answer this conceptual question in real terms. What is stagnation, What is change? It would be interesting to look at.
Whatever definition of moon you want to consider, Saturn’s job is no unlucky, it enjoys doing its job. Saturn’s job is to force people to serve others in cases of natives with strong Saturn and weak Saturn just enjoy the life a little without too much of drink and drive. If you want to know more about Saturn, you can look up William Mistele, an adept in Franz Bardon tradition and there are some very long articles on his experiences with Saturn’s spirit on his website. You will see how Saturn is only concerned with a civilisation and not just one individual, people who blindly believe Saturn is their teacher and cares for him/her will get a real shock. If I remember correctly in one of the articles the spirit of Saturn says how she destroyed one civilisation as a whole because they got extremely selfish.
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  #21  
Unread 11-20-2020, 01:28 PM
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Bunraku Bunraku is offline
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Beautiful graphics, Thirdteenth!

To paraphrase Stephen Forrest, no planet is in the sky just to hurt us.

Traditionally it was just seen as self-evident that bad things happened to people, and Saturn became the primary astrological box in which those bad things got placed.

The shift to seeing Saturn as something other than the Greater Malefic was spurred by Liz Greene's book in the 1970's: Saturn: a New Look at an Old Devil.

Saturn does want something from us: maturity, self-discipline, and stoicism. He tends to reward his apt pupils later in life.
Waybread,

Maybe if you were from the boomer generation, the last generation who can enjoy retirement.

These days, old age doesnít look very optimistic or rewarding. People are working until they drop dead or physically cannot anymore. More and more people are living paycheck to paycheck.

Such is Saturnís slavery.

We need a book that wasnít written 50 years ago when Americans were on drugs and partied constantly at music festivals.

Last edited by Bunraku; 11-20-2020 at 01:32 PM.
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  #22  
Unread 11-20-2020, 01:51 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

I wrote the above reply #20 as I got some free time after a guy made me wait as he was late for the meeting (Saturn makes you wait) and the guy is super pissed for whatever reason and told I did a really horrible job at a presentation just looking at one slide among the 90 odd slides I worked on and if he could he would fire me on the spot (cruelty without a reason to which modern astrologers say Saturn is trying to teach some lessons). The same guy praised my work and was happy just yesterday(Hello modern astrologers, what lesson I've not learnt that needs to be learnt?).

Such is the punishment Saturn gives sitting over a billion km away for talking about how cruel and unfair this planet is, I have noticed this time and again, you talk negative (which is only the real nature and functioning of Saturn) about Saturn, something awful happens. This is the reason astrologers around the world talk great about Saturn, some must know what happens if you talk bad about this planet.

Contrary to countless people who say Saturn delays but gives gifts and rewards, Saturn doesn't delay instead gives swift results much faster than anyone wants to believe.
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Atum replied ĎI will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.í

Last edited by lostinstars; 11-20-2020 at 02:00 PM.
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  #23  
Unread 11-20-2020, 02:08 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

Itís a planet not a sentient being. Saturn doesnít want you to do anything. It probably doesnít care because itís literally a ball of gas and other random elements strewn about.
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Unread 11-20-2020, 02:12 PM
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

The whole ďlessons needing to be learnedĒ is just victim blaming.
What lesson can be learned by a woman getting raped, mugged, or a child being molested or kidnapped. Absolute B.S.

Modern astrology falls apart if you think about it for more than 1 second.
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  #25  
Unread 11-20-2020, 02:12 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Saturn: A catalyst for change or a bringer of stagnation?

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Itís a planet not a sentient being. Saturn doesnít want you to do anything. It probably doesnít care because itís literally a ball of gas and other random elements strewn about.
Whether you believe in Traditional or Modern, you can't say a planet is not a sentient being. All the planets are sentient beings, real and they like to play with humans.
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