runnymede13
Member
I can tell anyone from personal experience, it's tough to restrain ideas about getting revenge when one has a lot of planets in Scorpio.
Scorpios and the psychology of revenge
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Agriias
Active member
I have a mars and scorp and for a long time didnt understand myself until I started really exploring why I felt certain ways and did certain things. This was through a combination of power fantasies and by realizing after a gf left me for another guy just how psychotic I could be.
The things is, people with strong scorpio traits are very sensitive and prideful. The prideful part is equally important because what happens is this. When you have alot of pride, and someone insults, humilates, or in anyway puts you down, your gonna be very pissed off. When we combine this with the fact that scorpio is a power driven sign with alot of pride, to have the audacity to put someone down means that you dont fear or respect them. And people with strong scorpio tendencies cant deal with not being respected. Remember the sign is ruled by pluto which is competitive, competition is about seperating who is better than who, where you rank in a hierarchy. Scorpio people want to be the best, the are prideful, strong-willed and if not leaders than often times will be standoffish loners.
In my own life, I go to great length to me mindful of treating people with respect, probally a reflection of how crazy I can be when I dont feel that way. And I'd like to note that scorpio energy isnt always crazy, its just you can only joke with someone like me when you really know the person and trust is established which is another big things to scorpio type people. They are often cynical and paranoid as they are intune with the darkside of themselves and know other people possess it. So they arent quick to let anyone in. Also note, that scorpio types arent always evil power hungry type people even though they are intune with that sort of thing and will defend and avenge themselves in unimaginable ways.
The vengefulness is just a strong desire to get back and then do some more. Think machiavelli when you think scorpio. It is better to be fear than loved because love wont stop people from doing you wrong, but fear will. Thats a paraphrase from the prince. So it is asmuch about vengeance as it is about prudence and making sure the person and everyone knows not to mess with you. positively channeled this can be someone who will stop at nothing to bring forth justice.
So basically, to understand scorpios and revenge you need to deeply think about how the keywords that describe it revolves around the concept of power.
A good way to learn about different levels of scorpio energy gone wrong is to watch movies about the mafia or other criminal activity. Those types of culture is all about power and control. And the opposite of these lifestyle is that of the detective or cop, and someone who uses only the force neccesary. Al pacino is a good actor to watch because he is often type casted as these sort of roles and has a talent for playing them.
Example, Al pacino in scarface is power hungry, determined, completely ruthless( he kills his boss, takes his business and women, and then is so jealous he kills his best friend for dating his sister).
Example 2: Al pacino in the godfather. He iis stoned faced just like in scarface, yet more mature in that he doesnt lose his temper easily, he doesnt mess with drugs and alcohal and he is always on point( he also is more spiritual than scarface as he loves his family whereas tony montana has no love for anyone) He is manipulative, determined, cunning, quiet, vengeful.
example 4: the devils advocate. Does this need explaining?
example 5: Insomnia, he plays as one of the best detective in the game, able to piece crimes together seemingly intuitively.
In the recruit he plays a CIA agent, check that one out if you havent, another good example of scorpionic energy. In more of a grey way.
anyways there it is.
The things is, people with strong scorpio traits are very sensitive and prideful. The prideful part is equally important because what happens is this. When you have alot of pride, and someone insults, humilates, or in anyway puts you down, your gonna be very pissed off. When we combine this with the fact that scorpio is a power driven sign with alot of pride, to have the audacity to put someone down means that you dont fear or respect them. And people with strong scorpio tendencies cant deal with not being respected. Remember the sign is ruled by pluto which is competitive, competition is about seperating who is better than who, where you rank in a hierarchy. Scorpio people want to be the best, the are prideful, strong-willed and if not leaders than often times will be standoffish loners.
In my own life, I go to great length to me mindful of treating people with respect, probally a reflection of how crazy I can be when I dont feel that way. And I'd like to note that scorpio energy isnt always crazy, its just you can only joke with someone like me when you really know the person and trust is established which is another big things to scorpio type people. They are often cynical and paranoid as they are intune with the darkside of themselves and know other people possess it. So they arent quick to let anyone in. Also note, that scorpio types arent always evil power hungry type people even though they are intune with that sort of thing and will defend and avenge themselves in unimaginable ways.
The vengefulness is just a strong desire to get back and then do some more. Think machiavelli when you think scorpio. It is better to be fear than loved because love wont stop people from doing you wrong, but fear will. Thats a paraphrase from the prince. So it is asmuch about vengeance as it is about prudence and making sure the person and everyone knows not to mess with you. positively channeled this can be someone who will stop at nothing to bring forth justice.
So basically, to understand scorpios and revenge you need to deeply think about how the keywords that describe it revolves around the concept of power.
A good way to learn about different levels of scorpio energy gone wrong is to watch movies about the mafia or other criminal activity. Those types of culture is all about power and control. And the opposite of these lifestyle is that of the detective or cop, and someone who uses only the force neccesary. Al pacino is a good actor to watch because he is often type casted as these sort of roles and has a talent for playing them.
Example, Al pacino in scarface is power hungry, determined, completely ruthless( he kills his boss, takes his business and women, and then is so jealous he kills his best friend for dating his sister).
Example 2: Al pacino in the godfather. He iis stoned faced just like in scarface, yet more mature in that he doesnt lose his temper easily, he doesnt mess with drugs and alcohal and he is always on point( he also is more spiritual than scarface as he loves his family whereas tony montana has no love for anyone) He is manipulative, determined, cunning, quiet, vengeful.
example 4: the devils advocate. Does this need explaining?
example 5: Insomnia, he plays as one of the best detective in the game, able to piece crimes together seemingly intuitively.
In the recruit he plays a CIA agent, check that one out if you havent, another good example of scorpionic energy. In more of a grey way.
anyways there it is.
That may be true, but having a lot of planets in Scorpio can also become an excuse for being cruel!runnymede13 said:
After all:
That's five planets in Scorpio. I would say that if Lotus has learned the wisdom of not trying to wound people when angry, that's pretty good evidence that Scorpio is no permanent barrier to compassion.Lotus said:
Gaer
Jeremy
Well-known member
I find it helpful to think about the higher vibration of Scorpio, certainly there is the Scorpion, the Eagle and the Phoenix, and all are valid interpretations of the Scorpio placement; certainly it is easiest to express the Scorpion that will sting itself to death in a frenzy of hate and death, but the eagle only kills when it is absolutely necessary; the phoenix by contrasts represents the most evolved transformational power of Scorpio and it is, when activated, among the most deeply compassionate and loyal of all signs.
Not that being the Phoenix is remotely easy, it takes a considerable level of karmic development and soul-power to make it preeminent, but it is only by aspiring to the best potential of any sign that we can at last hope to be free of the pain in our lives.
A very interesting discussion: I very much enjoyed reading about the Scorpionic incarnations of Al Pacino; one of my favourite actors!
Peace,
Jeremy
Not that being the Phoenix is remotely easy, it takes a considerable level of karmic development and soul-power to make it preeminent, but it is only by aspiring to the best potential of any sign that we can at last hope to be free of the pain in our lives.
A very interesting discussion: I very much enjoyed reading about the Scorpionic incarnations of Al Pacino; one of my favourite actors!
Peace,
Jeremy
Regarding Pacino: if the birth time given for him is correct, he has Pluto in the 12th, but very close to the AC, and Pluto makes several aspects, all hard.Jeremy said:
For instance, Pluto is semisquare Mars, only 4 minutes orb.
And Pluto is square Sun, Saturn and Jupiter.
Since at least modern astrologers associate Pluto with Scorpio, people who project a tremendous amount of power, power that we associate with Scorpio, often have Pluto placed in a very powerful but "hard" position.
Gaer
Agriias
Active member
gaer said:
I got my information on his birth time here: http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portrait.php?info=1&clef=398RF83qAv4u
They have his birth time listed at 11:02 am. This puts his pluto in the first house, 4.20 degrees off. I consider that far, but I'm also not a hugely convinced that the AC/DC and MC/IC lines have that much significance outside of marking the houses.
In declination he also has Mars P Pluto 0.06 degrees. A very powerful combination indeed. This would give him versatility in displaying both positive and negative traits fairly easily since he has then both. I'm not huge on signs, but mars in gemini I keep finding to be a strong placement for both sports and acting. mercury=skills, versatility, being able to become somethign else(the duality/twins).
Personally, I'm suprised not to see more super successs aspects and aspects to his uranus considering how famous he is, but maybe the mars in the 11th house makes up for some of that. I tend to use very tight orbs cause i spend all my time doing mostly sport astrology which is pretty much the most competitive sector out there. Almost everyone was introduced and played some sport at some time, nowhere near everyone acts or has any experience doing it or the opportunity, thus I'm thinking maybe the orb can be widen a bit for longitudes(I tend to be even tougher on longitudes despite there being 360degrees in longitude, but i keep it to 3 degrees vs. 60 degrees in declin and i give them to about 2degrees) So I guess it would be reasonable to allow 5-6degrees orb for longitudes especially as the level of competition decreases. In which case, he has a 5 planet config of mars, uranus, jupiter, neptune and the moon within 4.27 degrees. Which must be having a strong effect as he has no declinations to uranus. And I'd say he is a pretty famous guy.
That site shows the AC as 4Leo54. My program and Astrodients both show 4Leo55, which is close enough for me. Pluto is 0Leo39. Pluto is clearly in the 12th. However, some people analyze a planet so close to the next house as part of it. What method are you using?Agriias said:
I'm also not sure why you are so ready to discount the importance of a placement so close to the AC. Jack Nicholson also has Pluto in almost exactly the same place, if this is reliable:
http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/NicholsonJack.htm
Nicholson and Pacino have often been in competition for the same roles. They are both over-the-top actors projecting incredible power.
We all know the talent is there. He was suprisingly unsuccessful regarding fame early in life. He was all but unknown until "The Godfather". So I would say he is one that "made it the hard way".
Gaer
Agriias
Active member
The way I look at it is that they both have pluto in the first house and it shouldnt matter where exactly it falls. All that matters is the aspects to it. With all the other 8 houses we dont give any significance to the cusp of the house, so its never made much sense to me why we would for the AC and MC. Thus, I dont buy into using it.
I also use astrodienst, However, I have a different philosophy regarding houses. Basically, the paramters of the houses are contained withen each given sign. So In the case of Al pacino, I dont consider his pluto 12th house, I consider it 1st house only. The houses are contained withen a given sign.
The reasoning behind using this method is that I find it unreconcilable and confusing to have two signs in one house. Especially when there are planets in both of the signs in that given house. that just doesnt make sense to me. I also think that there can be confusion over this because after we are born the progressions begin and eventually the sign and planets in one house move over into the next and it can be hard to differentiate between natal issues/abilities from that of progressed ones. I dont know of anyone else who uses this method, so maybe it is idiosyncratic to how I do astro. Its worked very well for me though.
Thats a good point about him making it the hard way. I didnt know that about him, I'm only 23 so he has been well established during my entire lifetime.
I also use astrodienst, However, I have a different philosophy regarding houses. Basically, the paramters of the houses are contained withen each given sign. So In the case of Al pacino, I dont consider his pluto 12th house, I consider it 1st house only. The houses are contained withen a given sign.
The reasoning behind using this method is that I find it unreconcilable and confusing to have two signs in one house. Especially when there are planets in both of the signs in that given house. that just doesnt make sense to me. I also think that there can be confusion over this because after we are born the progressions begin and eventually the sign and planets in one house move over into the next and it can be hard to differentiate between natal issues/abilities from that of progressed ones. I dont know of anyone else who uses this method, so maybe it is idiosyncratic to how I do astro. Its worked very well for me though.
Thats a good point about him making it the hard way. I didnt know that about him, I'm only 23 so he has been well established during my entire lifetime.
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Gracestars
Member
Hi all,
I'm new to this forum and still have a lot to learn about astrology so this site is a great help!
I have mars, saturn and pluto in scorpio. I have never considered myself a vengeful person. Perhaps this side of me is tempered by the strong influence of pisces in my chart? I must admit though, that I although I don't really have thouhgts about exacting revenge on others, I do have a very assertive and stingy side to me which I'm sure my mars in scorpio is largely responsible for!
I'm new to this forum and still have a lot to learn about astrology so this site is a great help!
I have mars, saturn and pluto in scorpio. I have never considered myself a vengeful person. Perhaps this side of me is tempered by the strong influence of pisces in my chart? I must admit though, that I although I don't really have thouhgts about exacting revenge on others, I do have a very assertive and stingy side to me which I'm sure my mars in scorpio is largely responsible for!
I have Mars in Scorpio. I've never been a vengeful person. Although I do have a temper, most of which I've learned to control with age, revenge makes me ill.Gracestars said:
Saturn was in Scorpio for about 2 and 1/2 years, and Pluto was in Scorpio from somewhere in the 80s to the 90s. So Mars in Scorpio is very little to go on. I hope you have someone to help you study all your planets, their aspects and the houses they are in.
Gaer
Agriias
Active member
Yeah, I agree with Gaer. The signs themselves are never bad, its the aspects that are formed to the planet in that certain sign which can bring about the negative qualities any given sign has the potential for.
I took a look at your chart Gaer. It was interesting to notice that you only had one hard aspect to your mars, pluto sq mars, 4degrees. It makes sense then why you wouldnt be vengeful as you dont have tomany issues related to your mars position. So there isnt enough hard energy to bend you out of shape and cause you to take action.
Ofcourse, give anyone enough **** and they will eventually lash out, its just people with alot of hard aspects tend to lose their cool and fall into the extreme ends of a signs negative qualities easier.
I took a look at your chart Gaer. It was interesting to notice that you only had one hard aspect to your mars, pluto sq mars, 4degrees. It makes sense then why you wouldnt be vengeful as you dont have tomany issues related to your mars position. So there isnt enough hard energy to bend you out of shape and cause you to take action.
Ofcourse, give anyone enough **** and they will eventually lash out, its just people with alot of hard aspects tend to lose their cool and fall into the extreme ends of a signs negative qualities easier.
I totally agree with that!Agriias said:
Actually, my Mars is unaspected even by minor aspects except to Pluto. Even though the one aspect is difficult, it may have saved me from being walked over.
23Cap58 AC for you?
Mars makes some kind of aspect to many planets in your chart, as you very well know, including a quintile to your Moon and semisquare Neptune.
Pluto is also very strong. Do you have a huge amount of energy, stamina?
Gaer
Regardless, isn't it interesting that both these men have the same rising and Pluto in almost the exact same spot? I didn't realize that until I checked. Again, we have to trust that we are not getting dirty data re their birth times.Agriias said:
Actually, I probably pay more attention to aspects than anything else. Except for the Moon, setting a chart for noon makes very little difference except for the houses, and there are always arguments about house systems. I find it ironic that people do such in depth analysis of houses when the time may not even be close to right, and thus the houses are all wrong.
I simply think of it as being terribly close to the AC and thus stamping his personality—IF the time is right. What strikes me about his chart is the difficulty of it. Look at all those squares and oppositions. Everything about the chart looks "edgy to me", as if he has had to overcome very difficult obstacles. I'd like to know more about his life.
It seems to me the kind of chart that would defeat most people, but obviously he is s surviver, and I do sort of feel something that seems "scorpionic" in the chart itself, not because of signs, but because of the power. Don't you get the idea that the strength he brings to the screen is not just an illusion? I would NOT want to tangle with this person, based on his chart alone!
How would retrograde motion fit into your philosophy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Pacino
You might find some of the info there interesting.
Now, I wonder if we can find some actors who play vengeful, forceful roles who have several planets in Scorpio? Do you have anyone in mind?
Gaer
Agriias
Active member
Yeah, I find it interesting also. Definetly plays a part in why they competed for roles and maybe still do.
I dont understand what the deal with all the different kinds of house system is about anyways. It doesnt make sense for some houses to be bigger than others. I mean how hard could it really be. I just use the internet default on at astrodienst.
I agree Pacino is very scorpionic. It may be because of this.
Pluto square sun/saturn 4.40 degrees
pluto semi-square mars 0.05
pluto parrelel mars 0.04
I think that explains it all. I think that it isnt an illusion as he possess strong plutonian energy, some hard aspects and an insanely strong positive mars/pluto parrelel. I've always thought of him as mostly a type casted actor myself.
I'm not sure I understand your question on retros? Could you be more specific?
Check out James Remar for another negative type scorpionic character.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Remar
He has mars/saturn conjunction and parrelel.
He also has pluto/uranus contra parrelel venus/sun.
I cant think of any other off the top of my head, but I know there are more.
I dont understand what the deal with all the different kinds of house system is about anyways. It doesnt make sense for some houses to be bigger than others. I mean how hard could it really be. I just use the internet default on at astrodienst.
I agree Pacino is very scorpionic. It may be because of this.
Pluto square sun/saturn 4.40 degrees
pluto semi-square mars 0.05
pluto parrelel mars 0.04
I think that explains it all. I think that it isnt an illusion as he possess strong plutonian energy, some hard aspects and an insanely strong positive mars/pluto parrelel. I've always thought of him as mostly a type casted actor myself.
I'm not sure I understand your question on retros? Could you be more specific?
Check out James Remar for another negative type scorpionic character.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Remar
He has mars/saturn conjunction and parrelel.
He also has pluto/uranus contra parrelel venus/sun.
I cant think of any other off the top of my head, but I know there are more.
Jeremy
Well-known member
I am with Gaer on this; certainly the placement of Pluto is especially relevant in the 12th just behind the Asc since it gives all that intensity and lets it bubble just underneath the surface; that describes Pacino's style almost perfectly, so for me at least, the question is answered right there. Add to this the 10th House near stellium being fenced in by the gods of genius and good fortune and it hardly seems so surprising that the man has become such a success; and those hard aspects you mention only add drive and grit to the overall tone; if his chart had been smoother in tone then he might simply have been dilettante actor with less to prove.
Although the worst of the trilogy I find the final scene of Godfather 3 to be particularly Plutonic but perhaps that intensity is expressed a little more than is usual in Pacino's style, it is the dark undercurrent of death and menace which is so effective in his style.
Peace
Jeremy
Although the worst of the trilogy I find the final scene of Godfather 3 to be particularly Plutonic but perhaps that intensity is expressed a little more than is usual in Pacino's style, it is the dark undercurrent of death and menace which is so effective in his style.
Peace
Jeremy
Agriias
Active member
I just dont think intensity has anything to do with the 12th house its strictly a pluto thing and it comes across, because its first house. Pluto ruled the underworld and the unseen, the dead, things that arent neccesarily apparent. So to me pluto is going to give off that energy wherever it may lie in the birth chart. If pluto was in the 9th house, and we were at home hanging out, that plutonian energy wouldnt be apparent, unless we started talking philsophy, religion, or 9th house stuff.
So in Pacino's chart, since its in his first house, it affects how he looks and his overall personality, thus would sense that intensity just in his presense. If someones pluto was in the 12th house it wouldnt be as obvious like the way it is with him. In fact it may not be noticable at all through interaction and observation, only the person would know or atleast their actions may let on to it. 12th house =hidden, unconscious and subconscious, not something that you can sense just by looking at someone.
Secondly, He does have jup in the 10th house which is a good sign, but that stellium is way to spread out to have a cumulative affect. jup is 9 degrees away from the the next planet saturn.
He has a jup semi-sextile uranus at a 4degree orb. That isnt a strong aspect and neither is its orb. I'm gonna do some research, but his chart weak as far as uranus(fame) goes. I'd attribute his success to strong pluto aspects(will to win/succeed/be the best).
Gaer pointed out that the godfather didnt hit the screens until 1972 when pacino was 32 years old. Thus, I checked his progressed chart for march 15 1972. This is what I found
Uranus conjunct MC 1.00, 10th house (maybe the asc/mc points do matter, I'm not sold yet though)
Uranus trine neptune 0.06.... uranus fame, neptune, longlasting.. longlasting fame.
He also had pluto,venus,mercury,and mars all parrelel each other in declinations.
So, I'd agree with gaer that he achieve success through hard work and when the right progressions came about it was materialized.
So in Pacino's chart, since its in his first house, it affects how he looks and his overall personality, thus would sense that intensity just in his presense. If someones pluto was in the 12th house it wouldnt be as obvious like the way it is with him. In fact it may not be noticable at all through interaction and observation, only the person would know or atleast their actions may let on to it. 12th house =hidden, unconscious and subconscious, not something that you can sense just by looking at someone.
Secondly, He does have jup in the 10th house which is a good sign, but that stellium is way to spread out to have a cumulative affect. jup is 9 degrees away from the the next planet saturn.
He has a jup semi-sextile uranus at a 4degree orb. That isnt a strong aspect and neither is its orb. I'm gonna do some research, but his chart weak as far as uranus(fame) goes. I'd attribute his success to strong pluto aspects(will to win/succeed/be the best).
Gaer pointed out that the godfather didnt hit the screens until 1972 when pacino was 32 years old. Thus, I checked his progressed chart for march 15 1972. This is what I found
Uranus conjunct MC 1.00, 10th house (maybe the asc/mc points do matter, I'm not sold yet though)
Uranus trine neptune 0.06.... uranus fame, neptune, longlasting.. longlasting fame.
He also had pluto,venus,mercury,and mars all parrelel each other in declinations.
So, I'd agree with gaer that he achieve success through hard work and when the right progressions came about it was materialized.
Jeremy
Well-known member
I concur, and I think the progressions are very interesting in Pacino's case too.
The 12th House placement of Pluto and your 1st House idea is probably just semantics because I entirely agree with you. To explore my view a little more succinctly I think it makes a big difference as to whether a planet is just in front of (out there, fully expressed, first impression) the Asc, or just behind it (bubbling under the surface, on the verge of being expressed, not quite visible) and that for me only adds to the Plutonic power in his chart since it is entirely analogous with the nature of Pluto itself; it is almost the best possible placement for it in that respect.
I hope that makes sense.
Peace
Jeremy
The 12th House placement of Pluto and your 1st House idea is probably just semantics because I entirely agree with you. To explore my view a little more succinctly I think it makes a big difference as to whether a planet is just in front of (out there, fully expressed, first impression) the Asc, or just behind it (bubbling under the surface, on the verge of being expressed, not quite visible) and that for me only adds to the Plutonic power in his chart since it is entirely analogous with the nature of Pluto itself; it is almost the best possible placement for it in that respect.
I hope that makes sense.
Peace
Jeremy
I was thinking in terms of this:Agriias said:
My thought was that IF you are thinking in this way, it becomes important that some planets, when Rx, only move backwards in the chart when progressed.
I did. In fact, just to look for more people with Scorpio emphasized, I did a search for Scorpio/actors.
This, of course, just brought up Scorpio Sun, but it's a good place to start because the chance of Mercury and Venus also being in the same sign is also high.
Here are some people who I think might be hits. I did not check for birth times, and I'm not sure you will find them.
1) Charles Bronson. Sun and Mercury in Scorpio. Pluto is very strong, forming a grand trine with Uranus and the Sun, square to Jupiter. Famous for tough guy roles.
2) Ed Asner. This may seem like a strange choice, but I though of him because he has been so involved in fighting for all kinds of rights in real life, and he always played a very cranky, cross character. Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars all in Scorpio. Pluto trine Sun and Mercury.
3) Dennis Franz. This guy made a career of playing basically one very dark character in NYPD. He actually played a similar character in Hill Street Blues. Sun, Mercury, Mars in Scorpio. Pluto in Leo square Mars/Mercury conjunct in Scorpio.
You may be able to add more names. All of these people played characters who would measure out their own kind of revenge or justice according to their own codes. How much of it is playing what is really part of them? Always an interesting question.
Well, I'll consider the idea that I had of your having a great deal of energy right on the mark.
Gaer
It makes sense to me.Jeremy said:
I definitely associate Pluto in the 12th as more hidden, but it still shows. I know, because I have it there, and I've always had the power and intensity to literally take over in any situation when it was necessary.
But I think that Pacino and Nicholson are both people we could consider having Pluto on the AC (because it is so close), and that's good enough for me.
Gaer