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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 12-25-2019, 03:31 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Cazimi

Is a cazimi planet empowered by the Sun? I read that the Orb is one degree according to the earlier astrologers, but was tightened to 16 minutes during the Renaissance. Jupiter will be cazimi in two days.

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  #2  
Unread 12-25-2019, 12:53 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Is a cazimi planet empowered by the Sun? I read that the Orb is one degree according to the earlier astrologers, but was tightened to 16 minutes during the Renaissance. Jupiter will be cazimi in two days.
I have Mercury within 8 minutes, and I am a genius, so yeah it does empower.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 01:10 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I have Mercury within 8 minutes, and I am a genius, so yeah it does empower.
Aside from your personal situation, is that "standard" Traditional? Planet gets empowered? Like Venus or Mars camizi, great lover or fighter?I
What about Jupiter camizi, coming up soon?
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  #4  
Unread 12-25-2019, 01:20 PM
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Aside from your personal situation, is that "standard" Traditional?
Planet gets empowered? Like Venus or Mars camizi, great lover or fighter?I
What about Jupiter camizi, coming up soon?
Traditionally
"empowerment" relative to cazimi Mars has multiple significations
likewise "empowerment" relative to cazimi Venus has multiple significations
and "empowerment" relative to cazimi Jupiter has multiple significations
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Unread 12-25-2019, 01:25 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Aside from your personal situation, is that "standard" Traditional? Planet gets empowered? Like Venus or Mars camizi, great lover or fighter?I
What about Jupiter camizi, coming up soon?
Lilly gives the maximum + 5 points to cazimi planets, as are given to 1st and 10th house placements. - http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

Personally I don't think that heliacal risings, settings and cazimi mean much anymore, I was convinced by the physical arguments of Morinus against them.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 01:28 PM
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Traditionally
"empowerment" relative to cazimi Mars has multiple significations
likewise "empowerment" relative to cazimi Venus has multiple significations
and "empowerment" relative to cazimi Jupiter has multiple significations
That is correct. Planets have essential, but also accidental roles that vary by chart in traditional astrology.
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  #7  
Unread 12-25-2019, 01:39 PM
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Re: Cazimi

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Is a cazimi planet empowered by the Sun?
I read that the Orb is one degree according to the earlier astrologers,
but was tightened to 16 minutes during the Renaissance.
Jupiter will be cazimi in two days.
the information you read may have been incomplete
alternatively you may have overlooked some of the information


a cazimi planet must be conjunct with Sun by LATITUDE - not soley longitude


you appear to have researched this matter already
and have a particular day/date/time in mind
and so
useful if you would post the respective LATITUDES of Jupiter and the Sun
for the day you have in mind
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  #8  
Unread 12-25-2019, 01:42 PM
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
the information you read may have been incomplete
alternatively you may have overlooked some of the information


a cazimi planet must be conjunct with Sun by LATITUDE - not soley longitude


you appear to have researched this matter already
and have a particular day/date/time in mind
and so
useful if you would post the respective LATITUDES of Jupiter and the Sun
for the day you have in mind
Most traditional authors don't mention latitude, and only require longitude. The Sun is never north or south of the ecliptic, and traditionally does not miss applications and separations anyways.
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  #9  
Unread 12-25-2019, 01:45 PM
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Most traditional authors don't mention latitude,
perhaps not all
some
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

and only require longitude.
The Sun is never north or south of the ecliptic, and
traditionally does not miss applications and separations anyways.
precise Latitude of Jupiter on the day the OP has in mind is required
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  #10  
Unread 12-25-2019, 01:45 PM
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Re: Cazimi

Why do we have a thread on cazimi every three months on this board
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  #11  
Unread 12-25-2019, 01:46 PM
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
perhaps not all
some


Latitude of Jupiter on the day the OP has in mind is required
Give me a single source besides Henry Coley please
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  #12  
Unread 12-25-2019, 01:48 PM
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


Why do we have a thread on cazimi every three months on this board
That's a question more appropriate for our horary board
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Unread 12-25-2019, 01:51 PM
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
That's a question more appropriate for our horary board
Oh, no judicial astrology is sinful I am afraid.
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  #14  
Unread 12-25-2019, 01:56 PM
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Give me a single source besides Henry Coley please
BONATTI prescribes 16’ from the Sun BOTH in longitude AND in latitude
Bonatti’s rule is astronomically more accurate
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Unread 12-25-2019, 01:58 PM
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
BONATTI prescribes 16’ from the Sun BOTH in longitude AND in latitude
Bonatti’s rule is astronomically more accurate
Do you know what a source means?
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  #16  
Unread 12-25-2019, 01:59 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Cazimi

Liber Astronomiae:
''And when the planet is with the Sun in one degree, so that there are 16’ or less between them, both by latitude and longitude (which rarely happens), it is said to be united, and then it is made strong, because it is said to be in the Sun’s forge, that is, in his heart.'' - http://www.astrologiaoraria.com/Nava...0the%20Sun.pdf
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  #17  
Unread 12-25-2019, 02:00 PM
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Re: Cazimi

''We can be assured that Lilly is not referring to latitude in this excerpt because when he deems it necessary to consider latitude as well as longitude, he usually mentions it explicitly, as he does while discussing of fixed stars. It is no coincidence that Bonatti had already complained, some centuries before, about the lack of attention to latitude with the majority of his contemporaries: Indeed I am in agreement with them, but not purely and simply. Because if a planet is distant from the Sun by less than 16’ in longitude, and according to latitude it is distant by more than 16’, nevertheless it is combust, because the distinction between combustion in latitude and combustion in longitude is practically imperceptible.'' - from the same source

I would say that Bonatti was in a minority. Rhetorius and Sahl don't mention latitude with their degree either.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 02:03 PM
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Re: Cazimi

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


Do you know what a source means?
I'm no expert


Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


Liber Astronomiae:
''And when the planet is with the Sun in one degree, so that there are 16’ or less between them,



both by latitude and longitude

(which rarely happens),



it is said to be united, and then it is made strong, because it is said to be in the Sun’s forge, that is, in his heart.'' - http://www.astrologiaoraria.com/Nava...0the%20Sun.pdf
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Unread 12-25-2019, 02:06 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I'm no expert
Siriusly
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  #20  
Unread 12-25-2019, 02:11 PM
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Re: Cazimi

Siriusly

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

''We can be assured that Lilly is not referring to latitude in this excerpt
except that even Lilly specifically says
'....both by latitude and longitude
(which rarely happens)...'
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

because when he deems it necessary to consider latitude as well as longitude,
he usually mentions it explicitly, as he does while discussing of fixed stars.
It is no coincidence that Bonatti had already complained, some centuries before
about the lack of attention to latitude with the majority of his contemporaries:
Indeed I am in agreement with them, but not purely and simply.
Because if a planet is distant from the Sun by less than 16’ in longitude,
and according to latitude it is distant by more than 16’, nevertheless it is combust,
because the distinction between combustion in latitude
and combustion in longitude is practically imperceptible.''
- from the same source
I would say that Bonatti was in a minority.
Rhetorius and Sahl don't mention latitude with their degree either.
Ancient technical texts are very hard to work with.
Not merely do you need the usual Greek and Latin language skills
and a feel for the customs of the ancient world.
You also need a specialised understanding of the discipline in question.
Not many of us have knowledge of alchemy, or farming methods, or architecture.
So the manuals on these subjects tend to be understudied
and few are translated into modern languages.
https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/...ert-c-schmidt/
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  #21  
Unread 12-25-2019, 02:18 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Cazimi

Knowledge of Hellenistic, Medieval and Renaissance astronomy would also be useful. Comparing their recorded planetary positions with modern computation reveals that ancient astronomy, especially in the first two time periods, was so off (1-5 degree errors of all planetary positions is average) that they couldn't possibly observe cazimi consistently.

Quote:
except that even Lilly specifically says
'....both by latitude and longitude
(which rarely happens)...'
That was a quote from Bonatti.

Last edited by petosiris; 12-25-2019 at 02:23 PM.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 07:19 PM
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Smile Re: Cazimi

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Why do we have a thread on cazimi every three months on this board
Jupiter camizi tomorrow triggered it.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 07:34 PM
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Re: Cazimi

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


Why do we have a thread on cazimi every three months on this board
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Jupiter camizi tomorrow triggered it.
clearly
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Unread 12-25-2019, 08:22 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Cazimi

Jupiter cazimi in Capricorn would suggest a different result than Jupiter cazimi in Sagittarius, for example.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 08:25 PM
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Re: Cazimi

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Jupiter cazimi in Capricorn would suggest a different result than Jupiter cazimi in Sagittarius, for example.
Jupiter is depressed/in fall in Capricorn, while he is in his own house in Sagittarius and also in its own triangle by night, obviously it will have a different result.
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