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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #1  
Unread 07-13-2020, 10:15 PM
Keira Keira is offline
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Suicide in the birth chart?

Hello!

Can suicide be detected in the astrological formula?
Are there any planetary positions, or something else?

Thanks, Keira

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  #2  
Unread 07-13-2020, 10:50 PM
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Osamenor Osamenor is offline
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

No.

Why do you ask?
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  #3  
Unread 07-14-2020, 05:11 AM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

This is actually a question that I've had in mind as well.
A dear friend took his life, and I haven't looked at his chart but wondered if a tendency to suicide might be seen. Unfortunately I don't have his birth time.
I thought have to do with pisces and Neptune contacts.
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  #4  
Unread 07-14-2020, 07:46 AM
Keira Keira is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
No.

Why do you ask?
Hi!

Because I search about this theme in the books, but I find nothing.
And because of Stan Kirsch.
I know his birth time and place (1968.1986.July.15.- New York, New York).
But I don' t know his rising sign, that's my other question in this forum, but nobody can help me yet.
I know that, he had neck pain, and had 2 neck surgery. That' s and his look that I think he had a Capricorn ascendant.
What do you think about his ascendant?
Please, help me about this!

Keira
😉

Last edited by Keira; 07-14-2020 at 08:08 AM.
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  #5  
Unread 07-14-2020, 07:49 AM
Keira Keira is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
This is actually a question that I've had in mind as well.
A dear friend took his life, and I haven't looked at his chart but wondered if a tendency to suicide might be seen. Unfortunately I don't have his birth time.
I thought have to do with pisces and Neptune contacts.
Oh, I' sorry for your lost!

I' m just thinking of this, because I don' t read about this theme in books.
And because of Stan Kirsch death.
I know that he born in 1986.July.15. in New York, New York, but I don,t know his ascendant, but I think he look like as a Capricorn ascendant man, what do you think about it?
Keira

Last edited by Keira; 07-14-2020 at 08:11 AM.
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  #6  
Unread 07-14-2020, 08:21 AM
kalinka kalinka is offline
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

yes it can. In any case in vedic astrology.
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  #7  
Unread 07-14-2020, 08:33 AM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Thank you, kalinka.
It happened about 5 years ago but it still disturbs me.
Which is why I haven't looked at the chart.
But I've often wondered, why do some people resort to suicide, while others struggle on, even with pain, but don't give up.
There must be a link in their charts, no? Something that brings desperation and hopelessness.
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  #8  
Unread 07-14-2020, 04:38 PM
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Thank you, kalinka.
It happened about 5 years ago but it still disturbs me.
Which is why I haven't looked at the chart.
But I've often wondered, why do some people resort to suicide, while others struggle on, even with pain, but don't give up.
There must be a link in their charts, no? Something that brings desperation and hopelessness.
But that doesn't guarantee that they'll commit suicide. That part is, ultimately, their decision. Even if the decision is only to get on a healing path before their depression is so severe that they'll die of it.
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  #9  
Unread 07-14-2020, 05:17 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
But that doesn't guarantee that they'll commit suicide. That part is, ultimately, their decision. Even if the decision is only to get on a healing path before their depression is so severe that they'll die of it.
Agreed.
However, there are some people who would never even take into consideration such an ending.
While others seem to be not predisposed, but have some character trait that might allow the possibility to enter their mind.
What difference might there be between these two groups, in their charts?
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  #10  
Unread 07-14-2020, 05:25 PM
kalinka kalinka is offline
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

You can determine if someone will die by natural circumstances, by accident, murder or diseases. So why shouldn't suicide be predictable? It is. Even how the circumstances will be, for example if someone falls from a tree or have a car accident.
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  #11  
Unread 07-14-2020, 05:34 PM
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Agreed.
However, there are some people who would never even take into consideration such an ending.
While others seem to be not predisposed, but have some character trait that might allow the possibility to enter their mind.
What difference might there be between these two groups, in their charts?
That's worth exploring, but what we're looking for is risk factors. Risk factors in the chart don't guarantee the risk will manifest, but the more of them there are, the stronger the possibility gets. It's similar to risk factors for medical problems.

If someone who is at risk for suicide actually commits it, their progressions and transits will reflect something major at that time. But in and of themselves, the progressions and transits still wouldn't guarantee that outcome. The same progressions and transits will happen at the same time no matter what, but the native's response and the outcome could be different, depending on circumstances and choices.

Maybe they die. Maybe they survive a suicide attempt. Maybe that's the time when they find a treatment for their depression that actually works. Or maybe earlier transits and progressions that could have indicated suicide coincided with their turning point, and now they're not suicidal, their major event is something else entirely.
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Want my input on your natal chart-based question? You are welcome to submit it to the Ask the Astrologer feature on my blog, provided that it follows the feature's ground rules.
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  #12  
Unread 07-14-2020, 05:52 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Haha! I think we got you here, Osamenor!

"Or maybe earlier transits and progressions that could have indicated suicide "

So there are transits, progressions that could indicate suicide.

So, following it logically there could also be indications in the natal chart of a possible predisposition towards suicide, based on certain aspects.

So, what might these aspects be? Do they have to do with certain signs (I have Pisces in mind, only because of it's tendency towards self sacrifice), or certain planets (no idea), or touching for example the 8th and 12th houses.
Any ideas on this?
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  #13  
Unread 07-14-2020, 05:54 PM
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Haha! I think we got you here, Osamenor!

"Or maybe earlier transits and progressions that could have indicated suicide "
A better phrasing would have been "could have indicated suicide or a number of other things."

The important details are that we have a suggestion of a major turning point and the risk factors the native has for suicide are being triggered. Those same triggers could also play out in a very different way.
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  #14  
Unread 07-14-2020, 05:56 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Granted.
But what might they be?
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  #15  
Unread 07-14-2020, 06:01 PM
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
So, what might these aspects be? Do they have to do with certain signs (I have Pisces in mind, only because of it's tendency towards self sacrifice), or certain planets (no idea), or touching for example the 8th and 12th houses.
Any ideas on this?
I think there are far more indicators than that.

I read somewhere, forget where, that people born in the cusp week when the sun transits from Cancer to Leo (Robin Williams, for example) seem to be especially at risk. That makes sense to me in light of the messages that a sun on the cusp of Cancer and Leo would carry: Cancer's heightened sensitivity in general combined with Leo's emphasis on self. I can see that being a huge risk for self esteem issues, and a guarantee that if and when they occur, they'll be felt especially keenly.

But self esteem issues don't necessarily lead to suicide. That's just one factor.

Steven Forrest gave an example of a transit that was linked to suicide in one person but not another: Ernest Hemingway and Martin Luther King Jr. had the same ascendant, just a few degrees' difference. Mars crossed their ascendants in the period of a couple weeks when King got arrested for civil disobedience for the first time and Hemingway blew his brains out.
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  #16  
Unread 07-14-2020, 06:11 PM
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Yes, it can be detected.

Anything, rather proclivities to anything, can be detected in a birth chart. An astrologer just needs to be adept at Astrology to be able to detect it. Astrology will give you ALL information about the native.

That said, one needs to be conscious of 1) the ethics and purpose (when will i die vs. concerned parents about their child) of detecting such very delicate matters; 2) know when and how to present it to the native/ native's kin; and 3) be as sure as they can be (experience, practice and skills count) of what they are presenting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keira View Post
Hello!

Can suicide be detected in the astrological formula?
Are there any planetary positions, or something else?

Thanks, Keira
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  #17  
Unread 07-14-2020, 06:17 PM
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
I think there are far more indicators than that.
...
Steven Forrest gave an example of a transit that was linked to suicide in one person but not another: Ernest Hemingway and Martin Luther King Jr. had the same ascendant, just a few degrees' difference. Mars crossed their ascendants in the period of a couple weeks when King got arrested for civil disobedience for the first time and Hemingway blew his brains out.
That is because one transit says nothing about anything. A good Astrologer will consider at least 3 potential triggers/ confirmations before deciding. Also two people's charts might have the same "transit", but they will not have the same transits over every house in relation with those house rulers and where they are placed.
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  #18  
Unread 07-14-2020, 06:26 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

That's a lot of food for thought, Osamenor!
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  #19  
Unread 07-14-2020, 06:43 PM
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

There's two Arabic lots for suicide, which would be:
Asc + H8 - Neptune
Asc + Jupiter - H12

If it's a friends suicide you take 11th as Asc
If it's a child's suicide you take 5th as Asc

etc
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Unread 07-14-2020, 07:22 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Ernest Hemingway.
Just to get started, knowing this is a suicide chart.

Ascendent ruler is in 12th house, in a wide square with Uranus sitting on the IC.
The 8th house ruler mars is in first house, quintile Uranus on the IC.
South node is conjunct Neptune, ruler of 7th (open enemies).
And, sun placed where Osamenor mentioned, end of cancer.
Sun rules the 12th.
Sun squares Jupiter, co-ruler of 7th.

The Part of Suicide 1 is 19 taurus (trine mars from the 9th of higher thoughts...? thoughts of suicide?)

The Part of Suicide 2 is 13 Capricorn (conjunct moon)
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  #21  
Unread 07-14-2020, 07:41 PM
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Ernest Hemingway.
Just to get started, knowing this is a suicide chart.

Ascendent ruler is in 12th house, in a wide square with Uranus sitting on the IC.
The 8th house ruler mars is in first house, quintile Uranus on the IC.
South node is conjunct Neptune, ruler of 7th (open enemies).
And, sun placed where Osamenor mentioned, end of cancer.
Sun rules the 12th.
Sun squares Jupiter, co-ruler of 7th.

The Part of Suicide 1 is 19 taurus (trine mars from the 9th of higher thoughts...? thoughts of suicide?)

The Part of Suicide 2 is 13 Capricorn (conjunct moon)
Wouldnt it then be to look at transits on the suicide date. To see if they aspect the POS.

POS 2 i think the orb is too wide to be conjunct the moon.
POS 1 in the 9th house. Could it have been religious reasons he committed suicide?

POS 2 venus opposes it from the 11th.
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Last edited by Chrysalis; 07-14-2020 at 07:44 PM.
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  #22  
Unread 07-14-2020, 08:09 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

You're right, Venus is exactly opposite POS2.
Venus rules 3rd, at 29 degrees, house of thinking.
Mars, already mentioned, rules scorpio intercepted in 3rd.
Do we have a connection here with his way of thinking ?
Jupiter is just in the 3rd, in intercepted scorpio, and rules the 4th of end of matters.
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  #23  
Unread 07-14-2020, 08:32 PM
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Re: Suicide in the birth chart?

Jupiter is just in the 3rd, in intercepted scorpio, and rules the 4th of end of matters.

For the end of matters ruler, you need to look at the third triplicity ruler (as that's the final ruler) of that sign. This would make it Saturn. And Saturn opposes pluto.
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  #24  
Unread 07-14-2020, 08:32 PM
Keira Keira is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
Yes, it can be detected.

Anything, rather proclivities to anything, can be detected in a birth chart. An astrologer just needs to be adept at Astrology to be able to detect it. Astrology will give you ALL information about the native.

That said, one needs to be conscious of 1) the ethics and purpose (when will i die vs. concerned parents about their child) of detecting such very delicate matters; 2) know when and how to present it to the native/ native's kin; and 3) be as sure as they can be (experience, practice and skills count) of what they are presenting
Thanks for the informations!
I was shocked when I heard that Stan Kirsch kill himself.
I want to read his borth chart, but I don' t know his ascendant.
Can you help me for this?
I think he had a Capricorn or Libra ascendant. I wrote his birth time and place in this forum.

Thanks!
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  #25  
Unread 07-14-2020, 08:34 PM
Keira Keira is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
There's two Arabic lots for suicide, which would be:
Asc + H8 - Neptune
Asc + Jupiter - H12

If it's a friends suicide you take 11th as Asc
If it's a child's suicide you take 5th as Asc

etc
Thanks for the informations!
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