Asperger's / autistic traits in the chart

Osamenor said:

No. ADHD is not autism, although both can exist in the same person. And both are neuroatypicalities.

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Final question. Do you consider the highlighted to fall under Mercury alone, and/or/with Uranus accentuated?

helike13 said:

Hello

Are there any typical placements or aspects which suggests that the native is on the autism spectrum?

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Lots of planets in Virgo
Saturn-Mercury aspects
Uranus Mercury aspects
Strong Saturn or Uranus in Gemini or Virgo and/or in 3rd or 6th house

Frisiangal said:

Thank you for that fact of which I was unaware.

Many mental health name terms have been changed to their advantage over the years, making them sound less severe in nature.

Having also answered Osamenor's most recent post, does this mean that AD(H)D also falls under H.F.A, and is not separate from it?

(A lot of head scratching going on now.)

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I think Osamenor already answered they are not the same. However, both autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) are neurodevelopmental disorders distinguished by social difficulties.

Also, the latest approach is that they test you both for ADHD/ASD when they try to diagnose you. I only have ASD (as far as I know ) I have met people who have both. Lastly, I forgot to add that ASD is not considered a disease or mental illness anymore, but a developmental condition with different symptoms for everyone. Some people can indeed have ASD and a mental illness as well but that is another case.

Just a source for those who want to read about Aspergers Syndrome now being classified/categorized as ASD in the latest DSM-5:

https://www.autismspeaks.org/dsm-5-and-autism-frequently-asked-questions

Frisiangal said:

Final question. Do you consider the highlighted to fall under Mercury alone, and/or/with Uranus accentuated?

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I think that's worth studying. If we see charts belonging to neuroatypical people that do not have Uranus accentuated, then there's the answer.

But my thought is that Uranus would be accentuated in most or maybe all cases. What better way to suggest there's something markedly atypical about this person?

My chart does have Uranus accentuated--at the midheaven, most elevated planet, decent amount of aspects--and I can't think of a single case where I've seen a chart whose native was known to have ADHD or autism and Uranus was in a quiet spot.

Something I have noticed is that in those cases, more often than not, there's a Uranus/Sun aspect. Mine is a wide orb sextile, but it's applying, so I think I can count it. TamaraL has a Uranus/Sun sextile too!

Osamenor said:

But my thought is that Uranus would be accentuated in most or maybe all cases. What better way to suggest there's something markedly atypical about this person?


Something I have noticed is that in those cases, more often than not, there's a Uranus/Sun aspect.

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This is in the chart of Evan McCarthy that Leo Moon provided.
As it didn't show the aspects that have been observed to be linked to an Autism diagnosis, it raised my eyebrows.
A Google search showed articles in which she fought against the idea that he was misdiagnosed.
A further unaspected Sun-Uranus, plus Moon-Neptune, Mercury-Saturn-Pluto? Makes you wonder, doesn't it.

Sanae414 said:

My boyfriend is asperger, I have ADHD.

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Sorry, I missed your post sent just before mine.

The chart would seem to be a perfect example of how astro. aspects can correspond to the mental development issue experienced.

It is interesting that Moon is not adversely linked to the Mercury-Saturn in 6th house opp.Uranus, yet that a Pluto link to Asperger's does play a dominant role via the T-square. With the Mars-Jupiter links and Neptune prominent , almost ADD-ADHD .... plus.

I only have 1 other chart for 1966 (undiagnosed autism at the time).

A's chart only provides lat. and long. for place of birth. Would you be willing to share (privately?) town and country. (Also your own data?)

Many thanks for sharing.

applesandlilacs said:

Looking through I see Autism with other neurodivergent(s). A third of those with Autism will have comorbidity. I would take an educated guess and say that some of this third was probably also misdiagnosed at first, if not more.

So, where would aspects overlap behavioral profiles?

And, where do they fit on the spectrum?

And, what area does it effect the most?

These are the areas looked at:

Sensory Processing
Information Processing
Language and Development
Memory
Attention Regulation
Emotional Regulation

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Are you referring to astro. aspects here?

I was also wonder if a midpoint chart would be important given that autism is about too much or too little. Maybe a midpoint chart would show high concentrations or a lack thereof? Just a thought.

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Perhaps member Cary is the person to approach here, who says to work with midpoints.

Frisiangal said:

Are you referring to astro. aspects here?



Perhaps member Cary is the person to approach here, who says to work with midpoints.

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I have not contributed because I have doubts about the conflicting doctrines concerning the topic of ASD and other similar things like ADHD.

My mother was a psychotherapist, and my experience with her left me with considerable distrust of the entire field of so-called psychological research.

I have considerable doubt that so-called "disorders" are provably pathological. They are far more arbitrary than scientific. Sam Vaknin has also expressed similar conclusions.

Vaknin is a polymath with multiple degrees who is recognized as an influencial psychologist and author who is especially forthcoming about narcissism and psychopathy. Vaknin has expressed similar concerns to mine about so-called disorders.

Vaknin reveals that the much-quoted DSM was invented by the profession to act as a manual for insurance firms to guide them in their estimations of treatment costs and reimbursements for such costs. In doing so, he points out that the DSM is seriously flawed as a diagnostic tool.

Sam Vaknin, too, has warned that scholarship behind various "disorders" is much more arbitrary than scientific, and he has his many doubts. I don't consider myself an expert, and I have doubts that are any experts.

passiflora said:

Cary2, as an ex-psychologist I found myself nodding in agreement throughout your post (though Vaknin himself is vexing as a self-proclaimed narcissist). It’s very difficult to work with labels and fatalistic containers such as disorders, particularly those that are as you say reimbursement constructs. Planetary aspects are more helpful in illustrating tendencies and remedies. If you have remedial ideas from your work with midpoints I would be very curious to hear them.

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I have had difficulty finding accurate charts of people "certifiably" suffering from Asperger's, or autism for that matter. In my work, I must study from a pool of candidates in order to find the patterns.

I am fascinated that autism has a spectrum, and I suspect that sociopathy and other pathologies have a spectrum as well. I have met people who were more than a little sociopathic in my view who were never diagnosed as such. It does not dismiss their behavior that they were not formally diagnosed.

I have found that pathological behavior in examples who are emphatically and clearly defined, are not arranged on a spectrum by classical astrology. Astrology seems to declare that one has a tendency to pathological behavior but does not clearly subdivide the category beyond that. There is the hint of derangement without a clear category of derangement. Perhaps future astrologers will successfully define focused subcatagories that are reliable indications. As an astrologer, I would have difficulty differentiating between a sociopath, a psychopath, or a narcissist using astrological tools.

Astrology suggests madness without a clear discernment of which madness is at hand. John Wayne Gayce's chart shows madness and violence in two different places. Some mad people are not violent, but violence is added to the mix in Gayce's chart. I must rely on the synthesis of the entire chart to venture an overall assessment, and I use clinical psychological terms at my peril, so I tend to use more lay terms to describe the tendency to pathology that I see. I prefer "derangement", "delusion", "confusion", and various afflictions than try to mimic a professional psychologist.

Let me add that astrology is a study of tendencies, and some people have the hint of derangement without actually succumbing to it, and that is so important to remember for the practicing astrologer.

Autism/Aspergers/etc. is indicated by Neptune aspects, likely squares. A Jupiter-Neptune square would be an indicator ("too much [Jupiter] in the dream world [Neptune]"). Generally, autistic traits are in the "dreaminess" realm, which is Neptune. I speak from experience.

AVisitor said:

Autism/Aspergers/etc. is indicated by Neptune aspects, likely squares. A Jupiter-Neptune square would be an indicator ("too much [Jupiter] in the dream world [Neptune]"). Generally, autistic traits are in the "dreaminess" realm, which is Neptune. I speak from experience.

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I think you are right. Martin Seymour-Smith offered "mystery-illnesses" as a keyword for the Jupiter/Neptune combination.

Cary2 said:

I think you are right. Martin Seymour-Smith offered "mystery-illnesses" as a keyword for the Jupiter/Neptune combination.

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Are you sure that statement is about Jupiter/Neptune, or Saturn/Neptune? Jupiter doesn't have to do with health, while Saturn does. Jupiter is about "expansion" and "too much" of something.


In the case of autism, that is a condition that can be described as "too much dreaminess" which is why Jupiter factors into Neptune. It could also be Mercury or Mars aspecting Neptune.

I'm a female diagnosed with autism (formerly aspergers), and ADHD.

Here is my chart for anyone interested:

The main points of interest are probably the capricorn stellium in the 3rd and 4th houses that includes mars, mercury, uranus, neptune, and sun, with saturn also in the 4th house, but in aquarius. My moon in cancer in the 10th house opposes this stellium. Pluto is in scorpio in my first house, trine with the moon. Jupiter in virgo in 12th house trine neptune, uranus, and mercury.

If anyone has any thoughts on my chart and the connection to ADHD/autism please feel free to share them.

cappytothemoon said:

I'm a female diagnosed with autism (formerly aspergers), and ADHD.

Here is my chart for anyone interested:

The main points of interest are probably the capricorn stellium in the 3rd and 4th houses that includes mars, mercury, uranus, neptune, and sun, with saturn also in the 4th house, but in aquarius. My moon in cancer in the 10th house opposes this stellium. Pluto is in scorpio in my first house, trine with the moon. Jupiter in virgo in 12th house trine neptune, uranus, and mercury.

If anyone has any thoughts on my chart and the connection to ADHD/autism please feel free to share them.

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My first impression from your description (which is much inferior to a chart for analysis) is that one could easily mistake you for someone who is intellectually brilliant and possessing a rich imagination. The Moon opposition and the Fourth House Saturn might suggest a burden from genetics.

Cary2 said:

My first impression from your description (which is much inferior to a chart for analysis) is that one could easily mistake you for someone who is intellectually brilliant and possessing a rich imagination. The Moon opposition and the Fourth House Saturn might suggest a burden from genetics.

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Being intellectually brilliant and possessing a rich imagination is not mutually exclusive with ADHD and autism. In fact, those are key traits.

So, logically, we should expect to get an impression of intellectual brilliance and rich imagination in the chart of anyone with either or both of those diagnoses.

Osamenor said:

Being intellectually brilliant and possessing a rich imagination is not mutually exclusive with ADHD and autism. In fact, those are key traits.

So, logically, we should expect to get an impression of intellectual brilliance and rich imagination in the chart of anyone with either or both of those diagnoses.

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I agree, and it was my point, but it makes me still more hesitant to accept the arbitrary nature of "disorder" research.

Cary2 said:

I agree, and it was my point, but it makes me still more hesitant to accept the arbitrary nature of "disorder" research.

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If that was your point, why did you say, "mistaken for"? There's nothing to mistake.

What's arbitrary is calling it a disorder. Homosexuality used to be known as a disorder, too.

Similarly, people ask if there are "gay" markers in a birth chart. Arguably, there are, but the same markers appear in the charts of straight people too. And when we look for astrological markers of neuroatypicality, we may find some that appear time and again, but they also appear for neurotypical people.

Everything astrological can manifest in a variety of ways.

In High School, the popular, extroverted, insensitive kids usually adopt the opinion that the brainy, introverted, and sensitive kids are defective. It is typical adolescent behavior, and we should not let such defective thinking invade the scholarship upon which we depend. I think much of the thought on "disorders" is no more reliable than that, so I am skeptical.

B. F. Skinner and the behaviorists were very scientific in their investigation of psychology, and Jordan Peterson has relied more heavily than most on hard science, but the run-of-the-mill psychologists feel little need to do scientific research into their pet theories. They are prone, therefore, to introduce their personal preferences about human behavior into their scholarship, and they often either stigmatize what they dislike, or they absolve from responsibility those they deem "clinically disordered". I consider that bad science.

Osamenor said:

If that was your point, why did you say, "mistaken for"? There's nothing to mistake.

What's arbitrary is calling it a disorder. Homosexuality used to be known as a disorder, too.

Similarly, people ask if there are "gay" markers in a birth chart. Arguably, there are, but the same markers appear in the charts of straight people too. And when we look for astrological markers of neuroatypicality, we may find some that appear time and again, but they also appear for neurotypical people.

Everything astrological can manifest in a variety of ways.

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My use of the word "mistake" was ironic. I meant that in the future, I don't want to assume those with intelligence and imagination are disordered.

I knew two people who are both employed as nurses (the male & female nurses) One in hospice care, the other (male) in the hospitals.

They were quite sad and told me that their neighbors had children and they didn't and they were getting older now 17 or so years ago.



When the husband was around 43 and wife perhaps 34 they had twins. Both were elated when they found out she was pregnant and with twins. The children were born sometime before noon (I can't recall exactly now), so I used noon, but it was just before noon. She delivered them Cesarean and a planned time.


They were both determined to be autistic around age 2-3 and one was "worse then the other" for not connecting with people.



From my notes I saved - For example, once I had them over for swimming around age 5-6. "C" readily engaged but "L" his twin did not. Everytime "L" wanted to speak, he'd speak in a 3rd person type of way always disconnected from himself it seemed.


Example: "Look mommy, the swimmer is swimming" (instead of using his own name or saying "I" am swimming he would say, "Look at the swimmer"



When my husband made them grilled cheese sandwiches, they came into the house. "L" looked into the pantry for cookies, I forgot he had before, Vanilla wafers. He grabbed the box, ran outside and when we said, "give your brother one" he gave him just one exactly and didn't offer to share them.


from my notes -


[FONT=&quot]They BOTH wanted the "Pink Noodles" for the pool, and we had one purple & one pink....so it was settled by suggesting that the Purple one had a flower shape on the end.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]C.... is mostly the more distant, (focused one)..........and L.... is more the ADD - jumpy, fast and every moving one.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Both are cute. "L"... kept saying, "that's L....'s house, (over our fence) are you coming over to see [FONT=&quot]his [/FONT]garden?" Never self-involved when talking about himself.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]TOB in question, but definitely just before noon - 10AM -12 is safe to believe.
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[FONT=&quot]Their mom had a very difficult pregnancy, was quite sick a lot.
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[FONT=&quot]Being nurses, I recall telling the father that they were very equipped more then any others to take care of the boys (when the father expressed sadness to me) after they were diagnosed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Better equipped then most would be as parents"..I said."they'll do just fine" not knowing if they would or not of course.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]But as it turned out, the parents got First class help coming in 3 times a week to tutor the children for a few years, and they both attended Public school now for many years,(they are currently 17 yrs old now) ....[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Still they are different in their mannerisms, much like when younger, but "L" has improved quite a bit and his twin "C" you can't even tell if you didn't know it.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]They seem to keep only each other as best friends always together. Their father bought them each a car, like older 70's and they drive them once in a blue moon (literally), always with father in the car.
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[FONT=&quot]Yes, the father is quite strict with them (always has them on a rigid schedule) perhaps told to do so by the early tutors. and counselors who would teach them.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I recall "L" being in a grocery store and bumping into them when they were around 12 yrs old at the produce section. Both boys were there, but "L" clung onto his father in a bear hug (he was still younger then)...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The father told him not to be so emotional......in a sharp tone said, "Be a man, L"[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]They ALL seem to do well as an intact family, lots of structure, lots of busy time in the summers boating, (he bought a nice motor boat) and an RV so they go camping together. They all graduated from camping outdoors to now in the RV. They really seem to be doing quite well at their age now. But not much freedom that I can tell.
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[FONT=&quot]I know the father is a Scorpio Sun, and I think the mother is an Air sign, but I can't say for certain now.
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[FONT=&quot]They are Fraternal twins
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[FONT=&quot]note: 3 planets are in the 29th degree i.e. Mercury, Mars - Uranus.
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